Matt Ridley in the WSJ: Whatever Happened to Global Warming?

Now come climate scientists’ implausible explanations for why the ‘hiatus’ has passed the 15-year mark.By MATT RIDLEY

WSJ-Logo[1]Sept. 4, 2014 7:20 p.m. ET    THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

On Sept. 23 the United Nations will host a party for world leaders in New York to pledge urgent action against climate change. Yet leaders from China, India and Germany have already announced that they won’t attend the summit and others are likely to follow, leaving President Obama looking a bit lonely. Could it be that they no longer regard it as an urgent threat that some time later in this century the air may get a bit warmer?

In effect, this is all that’s left of the global-warming emergency the U.N. declared in its first report on the subject in 1990. The U.N. no longer claims that there will be dangerous or rapid climate change in the next two decades. Last September, between the second and final draft of its fifth assessment report, the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change quietly downgraded the warming it expected in the 30 years following 1995, to about 0.5 degrees Celsius from 0.7 (or, in Fahrenheit, to about 0.9 degrees, from 1.3).

Even that is likely to be too high. The climate-research establishment has finally admitted openly what skeptic scientists have been saying for nearly a decade: Global warming has stopped since shortly before this century began.

First the climate-research establishment denied that a pause existed, noting that if there was a pause, it would invalidate their theories. Now they say there is a pause (or “hiatus”), but that it doesn’t after all invalidate their theories.

Alas, their explanations have made their predicament worse by implying that man-made climate change is so slow and tentative that it can be easily overwhelmed by natural variation in temperature—a possibility that they had previously all but ruled out.

When the climate scientist and geologist Bob Carter of James Cook University in Australia wrote an article in 2006 saying that there had been no global warming since 1998 according to the most widely used measure of average global air temperatures, there was an outcry. A year later, when David Whitehouse of the Global Warming Policy Foundation in London made the same point, the environmentalist and journalist Mark Lynas said in the New Statesman that Mr. Whitehouse was “wrong, completely wrong,” and was “deliberately, or otherwise, misleading the public.”

We know now that it was Mr. Lynas who was wrong. Two years before Mr. Whitehouse’s article, climate scientists were already admitting in emails among themselves that there had been no warming since the late 1990s. “The scientific community would come down on me in no uncertain terms if I said the world had cooled from 1998,” wrote Phil Jones of the University of East Anglia in Britain in 2005. He went on: “Okay it has but it is only seven years of data and it isn’t statistically significant.”

If the pause lasted 15 years, they conceded, then it would be so significant that it would invalidate the climate-change models upon which policy was being built. A report from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) written in 2008 made this clear: “The simulations rule out (at the 95% level) zero trends for intervals of 15 yr or more.”

Well, the pause has now lasted for 16, 19 or 26 years—depending on whether you choose the surface temperature record or one of two satellite records of the lower atmosphere. That’s according to a new statisticalcalculation by Ross McKitrick, a professor of economics at the University of Guelph in Canada.

It has been roughly two decades since there was a trend in temperature significantly different from zero. The burst of warming that preceded the millennium lasted about 20 years and was preceded by 30 years of slight cooling after 1940.

This has taken me by surprise. I was among those who thought the pause was a blip. As a “lukewarmer,” I’ve long thought that man-made carbon-dioxide emissions will raise global temperatures, but that this effect will not be amplified much by feedbacks from extra water vapor and clouds, so the world will probably be only a bit more than one degree Celsius warmer in 2100 than today. By contrast, the assumption built into the average climate model is that water-vapor feedback will treble the effect of carbon dioxide.

But now I worry that I am exaggerating, rather than underplaying, the likely warming.

Full story here.

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Louis
September 5, 2014 10:52 pm

“It has been roughly two decades since there was a trend in temperature significantly different from zero.”

The alarmists thought they had everything covered when they switched from “global warming” to “climate change” because the climate is always changing to some degree. They knew that either an upward or downward trend in temperature could be used to indicate a “change” in the climate. The last thing they expected was a long period of zero trend. That threw a monkey wrench into their plans that they didn’t count on. It’s really hard to alarm people about climate change when the climate refuses to change.

magicjava
September 6, 2014 4:32 am

“As a “lukewarmer,” I’ve long thought that man-made carbon-dioxide emissions will raise global temperatures, but that this effect will not be amplified much by feedbacks from extra water vapor and clouds, so the world will probably be only a bit more than one degree Celsius warmer in 2100 than today.”

Clouds cool the world, Anthony, they don’t make it hotter.

September 6, 2014 5:25 am

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose…

AlecM
September 6, 2014 6:17 am

@hengis:‘ Back radiation, reflected radiation, atmospheric radiation is real and it warms, it doesn’t warm equally though. It warms the land but it doesn’t warm the ocean.
The reason why is that IR radiation (atmospheric radiation) is absorbed and radiated by the top couple of microns of the surface. On land that is the end of the story, the land warms, but on the ocean it merely increases the rate of evaporation, which carries the energy away as latent heat and doesn’t result in any surface warming or warming at depth either.’

Sorry, but ‘back radiation’ is not a real energy flux, merely a potential energy flux. The heating of the oceans is by SW energy from the Sun. The maximum SST is ~31 deg C when (exponential with temperature) evaporation kinetics dominate. IR emissivity becomes very small because most vibrational excitation is transferred to breaking hydrogen bonds and giving substantial kinetic energy to the freed water molecules.

September 6, 2014 6:41 am

The public and state governments are very confused over the global warming/climate change issue, and reading these comments it’s no wonder. Some of you who have commented are experts in some field, at least academically, but you present diametrically opposed interpretations of what’s going on with GW/CC. In short, you don’t know what you are talking about and you are confused too.
I believe there is obvious bias in scientists along political ideaologies, and it shows here. If this article was in the New York Times, a Comments thread having a differerent tone and slant would be seen. There would be experts substantiating GW/CC models and agreeing that millions of people around the earth are in great danger from the effects of GW/CC. Is there no objectivity anymore?

policycritic
Reply to  George Grubbs
September 7, 2014 3:19 am

Mr. Grubbs,

There would be experts substantiating GW/CC models and agreeing that millions of people around the earth are in great danger from the effects of GW/CC. Is there no objectivity anymore?

Experts substantiating GW/CC models? The 2013 IPCC report had a graph that showed 90 CMIP5 models wildly overestimated the danger you imply. IPCC (2103) Figure 11.25a. Saying “millions of people around the earth are in great danger from the effects of GW/CC” is hyperbolic.

policycritic
Reply to  George Grubbs
September 7, 2014 3:19 am

Mr. Grubbs,

There would be experts substantiating GW/CC models and agreeing that millions of people around the earth are in great danger from the effects of GW/CC. Is there no objectivity anymore?

Experts substantiating GW/CC models? The 2013 IPCC report had a graph that showed 90 CMIP5 models wildly overestimated the danger you imply. IPCC (2103) Figure 11.25a. Saying “millions of people around the earth are in great danger from the effects of GW/CC” is hyperbolic.

Reply to  policycritic
September 7, 2014 7:35 am

You have committed two more logical fallacies, the “Straw Man” and the “Red Herring.” I did not claim that millions of people around the earth are in great danger from the effects of GW/CC, yet that is the argument you attacked. I said, “if this article appeared in the New York Times, a Comments thread having a differerent tone and slant would be seen. There would be experts substantiating GW/CC models and agreeing that millions of people around the earth are in great danger from the effects of GW/CC. Is there no objectivity anymore?”
That does not mean that I imply that the danger to people around the world is inevitable or imminent. I may not believe that at all.
Indeed, your minimization of the effects of GW/CC is dangerously ignorant of the facts on the ground; emperical reality; that is, climate data collected and analyzed, and projections made based on clearly defined assumptions. This is not model data, but model validation data from the real world. This doesn’t mean these projections will happen with certainty; each has an associated likelihood based on its set of assumptions about future climate events and remediation implementations. .
In fact, it is you and those of like OPINION who are exaggerating, thus lulling the public and officials into a false sense of security. It is basically propaganda. You have no idea when global warming will pick back up and you have no idea how long it will last or how severe it will be, or what its acceleration will be.. There are climate scientists and atmopheric physicists who study this everyday and collect and analyze data everyday. Their job is to report their findings in scholarly journals with their research reports and findings subject to peer review, thus gaining a good measure of objectivity. .
Your self-appointed job seems to be to take pot shots at these experts from the sidelines, calling into question their character, competence, honesty and motives for doing their work. Why don’t you learn something about the subject and people at which your throw darts in a way reminiscent of “Blind Man’s Bluff”? That way your criticisms would carry more weight.
If you were competent to speak with athority on this subject, you would be a practicing climate scientist, and you would present your findings to substantiate your claims and be in line to win the Nobel Prize. Get with it; I wish you good luck. I you need an expert mathematical modeler, simulation expert, and big data analyst, I stand at the ready to lend you a hand.
G.

policycritic
Reply to  policycritic
September 7, 2014 9:45 am

Mr. Grubbs,

That does not mean that I imply that the danger to people around the world is inevitable or imminent. […] Indeed, your minimization of the effects of GW/CC is dangerously ignorant of the facts on the ground; emperical reality

Yes, it does. As for my knowledge of empirical reality, which you hyperbolically claim I am “dangerously ignorant of,” how would you know?

In fact, it is you and those of like OPINION who are exaggerating , thus lulling the public and officials into a false sense of security.

I commented on the 90 CMIP5 models versus the satellite data–that’s hardly an exaggeration–and the assumption that experts on NYT would claim “millions of people around the earth are in great danger from the effects of GW/CC,” which I have never seen in the comments section of the NYT…not from identified scientists. As for my “OPINION” being propaganda. No. It was a two-sentence comment on your remarks. Not a treatise. And not without the context of this thread.

You have no idea when global warming will pick back up and you have no idea how long it will last or how severe it will be, or what its acceleration will be.

Ditto global cooling.

Your self-appointed job seems to be to take pot shots at these experts from the sidelines, calling into question their character, competence, honesty and motives for doing their work.

What experts? I was talking to you.

If you were competent to speak with athority on this subject, you would be a practicing climate scientist, and you would present your findings to substantiate your claims and be in line to win the Nobel Prize.

Facepalm.

I you need an expert mathematical modeler, simulation expert, and big data analyst, I stand at the ready to lend you a hand.

I prefer rgbatduke[ Dr. Robert Brown from Duke Univ] and others who comment here and are able to explain the physics of what modelers are unable to model because they don’t know yet. These are not anti-model screeds; they are measured assessments from their various fields about what the 35-year-old climate science doesn’t understand (for example, the ARGO data is barely a decade old; it will take another 30-40 years to make intelligent and realistic models about the oceans).

Reply to  policycritic
September 7, 2014 10:00 am

Dr. Robert Brown of Duke is a good choice for physics. I hope he works for you for free. But what experience does he have in advanced applied mathematics (is he a PhD mathematician?), math modeling, computer simulation development/validation, computer software development, and big data analysis/data mining IN THE REAL WORLD? I hope you guys win the Nobel Prize when you prove GW/CC false. I will not be holding my breath.

policycritic
Reply to  policycritic
September 7, 2014 10:44 am

Who is trying to prove GW/CC false? What a ridiculous premise; cart before the horse. The point, or issue, is to discover the physics of what is going, cause not correlation. Or supposition. Or hypotheses declared as fact.

rgbatduke
Reply to  policycritic
September 9, 2014 9:42 am

Dearest Mr. Grubbs,
Since you questioned my credentials, I am happy to provide them. Ph.D. in theoretical physics (dissertation on multiple scattering theory solution to single electron problem in crystal band theory). As an undergrad and grad student, after getting AP credit for calculus I completed two “introductory” math classes (multivariate calculus and linear algebra, the latter in the advanced section reserved for math majors). I then jumped to graduate courses in complex variables, PDEs, and functional analysis, all taught by Mike Reed (who literally wrote the book on functional analysis along with Barry Simon). In grad school I added two more graduate math classes — one on topology and one on the mathematics of classical mechanics (action principles, group theory, etc) taught in the math department, not physics. Six graduate level math classes (four taken as an undergraduate) was not a math major (I skipped e.g. number theory, ODEs, “advanced algebra” all required for a major anyway) and Duke did not offer minors at that time but OTOH they really covered everything but number theory to excess. I would honestly self-assess my competence in math (my research and dissertation were basically solving advanced PDEs) as easily equivalent to a BS in math, maybe even a masters, since at this point I’ve taught a two semester survey of math methods in physics that covered probability theory, ODEs, group theory, and so on, in addition to teaching quantum and electrodynamics, which is basically advanced vector calculus and algebra and group theory and right up against the edge of differential geometry (I sat in on around 1/3 of a course in differential geometry before research pulled me away as well).
I’m still weak on number theory although I’ve worked through about half of a decent textbook on the subject, but I’m strong on things nobody even offers courses in, such as geometric algebra (e.g. complex number, quaterions, generalized clifford algebras — graded division algebras)). There are probably a few holes compared to an undergrad major who completed all of the sequence but the holes are where I’m not that interested as a physicist more interested in solving problems than formal proofs concerning abstract objects. OTOH I have lots of places where my knowledge is likely beyond most math Ph.Ds. What I am not, credentialling aside, is incompetent in math. Quite the contrary. I can walk to a board and start teaching calculus through (common) ODEs and PDEs without notes, and with a tiny bit of prep could teach a lot more.
I’ve had only three courses in computer science — one intro, one on computer architecture, one on numerical methods — but again I, like many scientists whose work involves a lot of computation, have acquired professional competence in the field. If you google “rgb beowulf duke” you’ll still get around 15,000 hits, although back when the beowulf archives were online and the topic was happening it would have been closer to 250,000. I’ve been a professional systems/network administrator for 27 years, although I’m no longer particularly active in administration and my knowledge of current tools is probably limited (although easily refreshed). My personal subversion-based code tree is deep and wide and gigabytes in size. I periodically teach selected computer science majors independent study courses in CPS that count towards their majors with permission from the department. I’ve trained a number of systems admistrators. I wrote the first two versions of Duke’s security and acceptable use policies and was a primary faculty advisor to deans and vice-chancellors responsible for the development of Duke’s network as it evolved from twisted pair 56 kb serial lines to gigabit and internet 2.
I am co-founder (CTO) of an internet security company that is just getting off the ground. I have written a book on the engineering of beowulf-style compute clusters and parallel scaling, wrote a daemon-based open source cluster monitoring software package that was popular for a while. I have written a small mountain of predictive modeling software — primarily advanced, genetically optimized neural networks but a smattering of nonlinear regression code back before R came out and made it silly to write your own code to do that sort of thing — and have founded two companies (CTO again, contributing both code and knowledge of statistics, probability theory, modeling, AI, pattern recognition, etc) doing predictive modelling for money, and the current incarnation of the second one is still extant: http://www.arcametrics.com/ and making money.
The last 15 years of my research career were spent doing large scale numerical simulations on homebrew linux-based parallel supercomputers (hence my connection to beowulfery) — primarily importance sampling Monte Carlo in condensed matter studies of critical phenomena (second order phase transitions) and autocorrelation, numerically solving Langevin/Generalized Master Equation sets to model quantum optics, and so on. I would say that I’m fairly expert on many, but of course not all, aspects of large scale computer modelling. It’s a big field. I’m hardly a novice, though, either in statistics, probability theory, computer science, predictive modeling, in particular applying Bayesian methods in the construction of super-advanced, nonlinear, multivariate models — models of extremely high dimensionality (as in up to hundreds of dimensions) — not to publish papers in the field but for the real payoff — to get paid for it, in competition with lots of other highly competent folks trying to do the same thing.
Just for grins, I’m also the author of dieharder (you can google that, too), an open source suite of random number generator testing tools. One of my favorite books is E. T. Jaynes excellent “Probability Theory, the Logic of Science” — in a sense you could call me a disciple of Jaynes as he was also a primary reference for some of my work in optics although I never met him professionally. You can take it for granted that I am highly knowledgable about hypothesis testing, the Cox axioms as the basis for axiomatic probability theory and epistemology, quantified doubt as the basis of sound knowledge, the Bayesian “loop” of priors, models, and posterior probability correction based on empirical outcome, stuff like that, and not in any sort of ivory tower sense. In recent years, I have become something of a devotee of William Briggs, a professional statistician who spends much of his time, curiously enough, tearing the statistical basis of much of climate science to shreds because its statements are all too often indefensible nonsense.
My credentials in climate science per se are still fairly limited. I’ve been studying the field for five or six years at this point. I’ve worked through Grant Petty’s excellent book, “A First Course in Atmospheric Radiation”, although I may have mislaid my copy while teaching physics at the Duke Marine Lab this summer and will probably have to purchase a new copy. Most of the physics in it I’m already familiar with from working in and teaching E&M, quantum mechanics, thermodynamics/stat mech, and so on, so the book is comparatively easy for me to understand. I’ve also worked through Caballero’s textbook on climate science, which walks one through things like basic thermo (already known) and up to in-context discussions of things like the adiabatic lapse rates dry and wet, reduced temperature, atmospheric potential, the greenhouse effect. The one thing I haven’t really done much with personally is fluid dynamics — I know a lot about it (from teaching the intro levels if nothing else) but Navier-Stokes and the solution of actual physical fluid models near the various nonlinear critical points (onset of turbulence, for example) I have not done actual computations in. That does not stop me from reading about it, understanding the general structure of the PDEs involved, and appreciating the incredible difficulty of solving them. Mathematicians don’t even have existence proofs for NS — it is a grand challenge problem.
Which brings me to my own opinion on the subject, you can judge on any basis you like if it is ill-founded or ignorant. Climate models attempt to solve two nonlinearly coupled NS-systems — the atmosphere and the ocean — externally driven by both nearly periodic drivers and by what amount to “random” modulators, some of which are long-period internal feedback loops within the highly non-Markovian system itself with its broad spectrum of autocorrelation times. They attempt to do so on a grid no smaller than 100x100x1 km in size at the equator, with timesteps of ~100km/340 m/sec = 5 minutes (the time required for sound to propagate across the non-uniform lat/long cells, but absurdly long compared to the vertical propagation time or the oceanic propagation times). Since the Kolmogorov scale for nonlinear dynamics in the atmosphere is order of 1 mm, these spatiotemporal cells are order of 10^7 x 10^7 x 10^5 x 10^7 = 10^26 — 26 orders of magnitude — too large to have a good chance of actually solving the NS equations.
One can argue that one can coarse grain at this scale, create smoothed approximations of the cell dynamics, and solve systems like this and have the solutions obtained end up being meaningful, but there is no evidence that this is the case. In fact, there is substantial evidence that this is not the case, both from many other nonlinear chaotic systems where the minimum scale for microscopic dynamical models is the minimal scale for a reason (that reason being that you get garbage if you try doing the computation at coarser resolutions), from plain old numerical computation theory of quadrature where we know perfectly well that we cannot even numerically solve completely deterministic and boring systems like planetary orbits with a coarse timestep and little error control and end up with anything like the actual answer, especially after many timesteps, and above all, empirically — because the models suck at predicting anything outside of their reference period.
I strongly suggest that you download Chapter 9 of AR5 and read it in its entirety, but especially sections 9.2.2 and ff — where they acknowledge that the multimodel ensemble mean is completely meaningless as far as being supported by the axioms of probability and statistics are concerned — and that no effort is made to subject the individual models of CMIP5 to a simple hypothesis test by comparing their individual runs to the data.
This is not done because if it were done, the game would be instantly over. Turn to figure 9.8a in AR5. This figure presents a spaghetti graph of the CMIP5 models (sufficiently jumbled together that it makes it difficult to see instantly how terrible they really are individually at predicting the climate) against both HADCRUT4 (primarily) and the meaningless MME mean. Note well that each curve in the spaghetti is already a perturbed parameter ensemble mean of anywhere from a very few to hundreds of runs (yes, this asymmetry of data contribution is a problem, see 9.2.2 and ff). Since the variance per model is nevertheless much greater than that of the actual climate (and since none of these averages come anywhere near tracking the actual climate) we can fairly safely assume that if we were to compare individual model runs to the climate their variance would be around an order of magnitude too large. This alone would be instant cause for rejection in the specific sense that the model in question is clearly inadequate to use at all as a basis for formulating public policy that is killing millions of people a year now by misdirecting funds that could be used to (for example) end world poverty and the preventable deaths of children into a hypothesis of “catastrophe” that has no sound theoretical or quantitative support.
The models do not just fail in the present. They also fail, badly, to hindcast the past. Note well that the collective MME mean spends roughly 90% of its time warmer than the actual global average temperature even in the past all the way back to the beginning of HADCRUT4. It utterly fails (as to the individual models) to reproduce the signficant climate variations of the early 20th century as well as the entirety of the 21st century. Indeed, the only time it does a good job is in the reference period!
You seem to claim to be a professional predictive modeller. How impressed are you by a model that fits its training data but fails to predict either trial data from the past or future data with any skill? What would you estimate the p-value is of the null hypothesis “this model is a perfect, valid model of the climate” comparing the outcome of each of the models in the spaghetti to reality, one at a time, in 9.8a? Eyeballing an crude estimate based on the probability of the MME being too high 90% of the time instead of 50% of the time given at least 10-12 independent “trials” (with a presumed autocorrelation time of a decade) we get what, exactly? And the MME is going to be an upper bound on p for almost all of the PPE means, and the PPE means themselves aren’t even the proper basis for the hypothesis test — one really has to determine the probability of getting the actual climate given the envelope and distribution of PPE results, not just global surface temperature anomaly but results in several other dimensions — global distribution of rainfall, prediction of LTT, etc. Seriously, anyone who knows anything at all about modelling would reject (almost all) of the CMIP5 models out of hand, one at a time or collectively, if their skill were rigorously compared to reality. If you were shown this data, told that it was a prediction of some stock in the stock market, would you invest in it? Only if you were a serious gambler. If you’d bet on AR3 predictions to within almost 100%, you’d be broke today./
In real science, rather than fund-me-to-save-the-world science, nobody would be surprised by the failure of the models to have any skill. We wouldn’t expect them to, as they are just modified weather models and we already know weather models have no skill as little as weeks out. We wouldn’t expect them to, as we already know that dynamical models of this type do not fare well when integrated at a scale twenty-plus orders of magnitude too large. We wouldn’t expect them to, given that the scale of integration is too large to resolve lots of meso- not even micro-, meso-scale energy transport phenomena that are critical to the climate system, such as thunderstorms, clouds, the water cycle in general, soil, vegetation, rivers and reservoirs, the UHI. All of these phenomena are rolled into ad hoc phenomenological terms for the cells that we are then told are “physics based” as if this is either true or relevant when solving the NS equations at an absurd resolution. The models as solved aren’t even conservative and have to be renormalized regularly to prevent drift, and all of this is with parameters for critical process that aren’t even set to be the same between models. Finally, the models in CMIP5 aren’t independent, aren’t unbiased samples drawn from some sort of pool of models, so we have no a priori reason to trust either the mean or any of the moments of collective statements about the climate. It would be a miracle if they worked.
This is why climate scientists are back-pedalling as fast as they can as the climate has finally started to deviate from the models by enough that no amount of statistical band-aiding or obfuscatory graphing of the models compared to reality can conceal this simple fact from the politicians who have been more or less deliberately misled for nearly twenty years now by a comparatively small, but powerful, group of other politicians and climate scientists who have effectively controlled the funding of the entire multidisciplinary science. The oceans are not rising any faster than they have from time to time over the last 140 years. The temperature is varying with the same general pattern it has followed for roughly the last 165 years. LTT’s have been flat for most of the time we have measured them with satellites. The global surface temperature anomaly has been flat for long enough that AR5 has an entire Box devoted to ex post facto explanation of this inconvenient truth, and the continuation of flatness for another whole year and continued semi-fizzle of the ENSO event that was supposed to “rescue” the models has — so far — encouraged the number of “explanations” for this pause to double in the literature in the meantime.
“Climate sensitivity” is in free-fall, down from Hansen’s absurdities of 5 C or more by 2100 to under 2.0 C in the current warmist literature and the data is looking like it is supporting an even lower estimate of 1 to 1.5 C. Indeed, all of the warming in the era where CO_2 has substantially increased — call it 65 years — has occurred in a single 15 to 20 year burst from 1978 (or 1983) to 1998. All of the rest of that stretch temperatures have been flat to slightly descending.
There is one simple way to understand this — a way outside of the complexities of climate models. If we assume even a single layer model like that expressed in Petty, we can easily — for a given set of absorptivities — find the fixed point, including the warming due to the GHE. This model is basically a linear model — the absorptivities and albedo are held to be independent of the temperature, and if one makes it into a dynamical model by assigning some heat capacity to the various reservoirs if one increases the initial temperature of the reservoirs over the fixed point it will be driven back to the fixed point. If, OTOH, the absorptivity is itself a function of temperature, it isn’t so simple.
Suppose absorptivity increases (approximately) linearly with temperature, also known as “positive feedback” (from e.g. water vapor) in the vicinity of an initially assumed, consistent, fixed point. Then increasing temperature increases absorptivity. There is no longer any clear fixed point. If average temperature increases monotonically with absorptivity, and absorptivity increases monotonically with temperature, even if the system has fixed point for some initial conditions it isn’t clear that that fixed point will be stable. Natural fluctuations will drive the fixed point itself into a random walk. Random walks are themselves not stable — they diverge like the square root of the number of steps. The system must have negative feedback to be globally stable to fluctuations in a Langevin-type model of driven dynamics plus random noise — its response to any positive fluctuation in absorptivity driven “gain” has to be to decrease, not increase the effect of the fluctuation on the average (fixed point) itself. Otherwise in a warm year, net water vapor content would (on average) increase, which would increase absorptivity from water vapor as a GHG, which would shift the fixed point up, so that the system did not return (on average) to the same fixed point it started from but to one a bit higher. Fluctuations up and down would not average out to zero, but to a steady drift either up or down, like a random walk in 1D. Only if increasing water vapor has a compensating nonlinear effect, such as increasing average albedo, to make net feedback negative will the system return to its former fixed point. Indeed, the nonlinear dynamical fixed point would have positive feedback if it was too cool, negative if too warm. It would resist both perturbations in the water vapor channel itself and additional forcing from CO_2, not augment it.
In other words, there is a very good reason — long before one builds models — for thinking that the system is moderately stable, and that the average temperature is in fact the sort-of fixed point where things like water vapor feedback change sign, so that warmer cools, cooler warms, by modulating the entire water cycle — not just absorptivity, but albedo and latent heat transport. If this collective nonlinear cycle produced positive warming feedback in the neighborhood of its fixed point(s), the system itself would probably be unstable and the Earth would be Venus. It does not. On the cooling side things are more worrisome as the Earth is at least bistable, maybe tristable, with both the current deep glacial oscillation as a known stable cold phase and a spectrum of shorter period not-so-deep glacial oscillations from the earlier part of the Pliestocene to worry about as a third locally stable state of the system. There is strong evidence in the ice core data that the Earth can plunge into cold phase in as little as a decade when conditions are right, given remarkably little alteration in the driving/forcing. Since we do not properly understand this bistable behavior (well enough to predict it with much skill) and we absolutely do not understand the underlying multivariate dynamics, quasi-particle large scale structures or dynamical variations in either driving (such as ENSO, the PDO, the NAO, the solar cycle, Milankovich stuff) it is very hard indeed to say if the Earth’s global state on geological time scales is unstable to cold phase transitions. The LIA suggests that it might be. There is little evidence that even the interglacials have a warm phase that is accessible that is more than a degree or so warmer than current temperatures, either in the record of the Holocene, in ice core data, or in longer term radiometric proxies, although the 600 million year record is one of steady, systematic variation right down to the current all time low of global average temperature.
rgb

Reply to  rgbatduke
September 9, 2014 10:52 am

RGB, I never questioned your credentials. You must have me confused with someone else. I did say that some people are throwing around their academic degrees like insecure ivory tower types (or something like that), but you are certainly not included in that group.
In fact, I paid you a compliment by citing your entries as the only ones that seemed competent and clear and contributed to the question at hand. Be sure that I will check out your claims to see if they hold water. My gut tells me that there are flaws in your arguments, but it will take some effort to unpeal your onions.
But, now that you’ve self-disclosed, I think you went much to far overboard. You are now acting like an academic twerp in my opinion. We all can sling degrees and academic accomplishments around can’t we. What does that prove? What does theoretcal physics prove? What does anyone’s degrees prove?
I will cave to peer pressure and briefly follow suit: I have degrees in applied physics, applied math, computer science and philosophy of science. I started college courses when I was 14; took modern algebra, topology, advanced caclulus, advanced differential equations, and complex analysis before I entered college. (I had all kinds of academic awards; am a member of Phi Kappa Phi, Sigma Xi, etc). I don’t have PhD, only two masters. I elected to work in the real world for over 53 years and I am still at it. I learned more practical knowledge in my first year on the job that my entire classroom experiences, although they were valuable to my career in learning how to solve problems, and learning how to learn.
So what does that prove about my knowledge of climate science. By and large, nothing. The same is true for you, a theoretical physicist, although I found your exposition on atmospheric physics possibly enlightening if true, but I sensed it to be speculative to some degree.
So, let’s stop this academic “pissing contest” – you win – you can piss further than I can. You can piss further than anyone can. You are the winner! Now, let’s start from there and have a reasonable discussion of current climate science (established) facts, and what the climate scencarios for the world to come are likely to be and state the various likelihoods.
glg

Reply to  policycritic
September 9, 2014 10:00 am

rgbatduke
September 9, 2014 at 9:42 am
IMO the warmest interglacials, such as the Eemian (MIS 5), MIS 11 & MIS 19, were globally at least a few to several degrees hotter than now, & even in the Holocene, its warmest intervals have been more than one degree warmer than now.

rgbatduke
Reply to  policycritic
September 9, 2014 3:31 pm

Sorry, I guess I forgot the block quote:

Dr. Robert Brown of Duke is a good choice for physics. I hope he works for you for free. >But what experience does he have in advanced applied mathematics (is he a PhD mathematician?), math modeling, computer simulation development/validation, computer software development, and big data analysis/data mining IN THE REAL WORLD?

Perhaps I misread this. Note that I didn’t talk about my second major in philosophy (irrelevant) or for that matter, my physics Ph.D. beyond the general topic of my dissertation. I was providing you with my experience in advanced applied mathematics (which you questioned), explaining that while I don’t have a Ph.D. in mathematics I have enough graduate courses and teaching experience to very likely be able to get one, if that mattered (theoretical physics is basically mathematics anyway), indicating that I have an enormous amount of practical experience with math modelling, computer simulation development/validation, computer software development, and big data analysis/data mining IN THE REAL WORLD. I thought I was just answering your explicit questions when you questioned my qualifications to comment on computer modeling. Data mining? Second company — really third. Computer simulations and modelling? Papers in Physical Review. Software development? I teach it, and have a few gazillion lines of code to my name, including writing the actual software that launched both of the companies above that do/did modeling and part of the key software for the third (security) company.
So I’m puzzled. Why would you deny your own words in the very same thread that they are clearly stated?
Oh, and I forgot to note: I work for free. Sadly, the Big Oil companies have not seen fit to add me to their under-the-table payouts for doubting much of climate science. Not surprising since energy companies in general are prime benefactors from the panic.
rgb

Reply to  rgbatduke
September 9, 2014 3:53 pm

I stand corrected if you were “just” addressing my request for your real world experience, plus PhD in Math. Forgive me my sins. You really don’t look that old, so how in the world did you achieve those earned PhDs and do all that real world work (for free?), and those zillions of lines of code in just a few decades? What languages do you code in? You do use OOP don’t you? Do you also design your own databases? What DBMS do you use to host the massive amount of data you probably analyze? Do you develop global warming and climate change models, or is your math modeling in physics?
In any case, you appear to be the most qualified person in this comments thread and I have said so. I will check out your assertions. Thank you for your service. 🙂

Reply to  rgbatduke
September 9, 2014 4:18 pm

For what it is worth, you may want to read this:
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/07/08/2265541/breaking-bad-matt-ridley-exits-wall-street-journal-column-as-a-climate-science-denier-of-the-third-kind/
Signing off now. On the whole, it’s been an awful experience. Good luck to everyone. 🙂 Now, back to some real work.

rgbatduke
Reply to  George Grubbs
September 10, 2014 8:48 am

I stand corrected if you were “just” addressing my request for your real world experience, plus PhD in Math. Forgive me my sins. You really don’t look that old, so how in the world did you achieve those earned PhDs and do all that real world work (for free?), and those zillions of lines of code in just a few decades? What languages do you code in? You do use OOP don’t you? Do you also design your own databases? What DBMS do you use to host the massive amount of data you probably analyze? Do you develop global warming and climate change models, or is your math modeling in physics?

You are forgiven, provided that the rest of the questions you continue to ask are actual questions, and not sarcasm intended to cast doubt on my qualifications. I’d have to say that your first post was exactly that, the second in reply to my statement of qualifications was in denial of your first, and I’m not certain about the third. You’ve probably left the thread, which is fine (because yes, people will hammer on you here — bear in mind that I spend as much time correcting people who want to “deny” that the GHE exists at all as I do casting IMO well-deserved doubt on the statistical or computational skill of the CMIP5 models that are (really) the sole basis of support for all of the predictions of doom and gloom) but in case you are still here I will answer your remaining questions as if they were indeed honest and not sarcasm.
I’m 59 — so I’m probably older than you think, based on my picture. White beard. Largely absent hair. Pudgier than I should be. Recall that I don’t have a Ph.D. in math, or even a BS, but that doesn’t mean that I am in any way incompetent or narrowly educated in math either formally or on my own. The whole point of a Ph.D., BTW, is to learn to learn on your own, so you can continue to learn for a lifetime without further instruction. People don’t get a Ph.D. and then “freeze” their knowledge or skills the day after they get their dissertation finished.
I have coded at least one program in at least the following languages (I doubt the list is complete): C, C++, PL1, Fortran (several flavors), assembler (several architectures), APL (I coded Mastermind in APL on an IBM 5100, a fact that at one time had me being accused of being John Titor: http://www.amazon.com/John-Titor-Time-Travelers-Tale/product-reviews/1591964369), Basic (several flavors), Pascal, Perl, Python, bash/bin/sh, tcsh, tcl/tk, matlab/octave, supermongo (don’t ask), awk, sed (if you consider sed scripts coding), PHP, and as I said, there are probably a few I’ve forgotten — javascript, java (but only barely), dunno… not really lisp, mathematica yes, and I forgot Macsyma and a macsyma predecessor I can no longer remember the name of (working on implementing group theory products for complicated groups for my advisor back in the 80’s so he could test various theorems he was trying to prove)…
I don’t, actually, prefer OOP. Consider that a sign of my age, if you like. One can program in object-oriented style in any language, but it is remarkably difficult to program procedurally in an OOP as the syntax and methods conspire against it. Ditto, really, for list-oriented langages — never cared for them although sure, they are great for certain kinds of tasks.
I have designed my own databases, but I taught myself all the databases I have used. Practically speaking I learned SQL in the context of implementing mysql and for a while put a mysql db behind several websites I ran more for grins than anything else. We used mysql in my first (neural net based) predictive modeling company, but my primary partner is/was a database consultant and is good at it so he actually wrote most of the mysql code and interface and I just used it or sometimes tweaked it. In my more recent company an external consultant steered us towards mongo — the supermongo mentioned above is no relation — so I had to learn javascript and its objects and nosql interfaces. As it happened, mongo was an absolutely terrible choice (at that time, it was still somewhat under development) because its fundamental data structure was a data tree and one had to descend the tree to the leaves in order to do the equivalent of certain selects, which scaled like molasses when we were churning through many GB of data in deep tables. We backed off and went to mysql, and at that point I stopped writing most of the code and doing most of the actual work as we had employees that are better at DB work than I am and I’m not stupid. At this point I have no idea if we’ve gone to Oracle or something else — I doubt it, as I don’t “think” we will have exceeded mysql’s sensible capacity, but I no longer am involved in daily runnings and don’t know.
I don’t do much physics research any more (which is why climate science is my hobby, as it were) but when I did large simulations there was no point in storing more than e.g. random number seeds and processing the data as it came in so I never had need for a DB (or even a spreadsheet) to manage data.
Finally, I myself do not develop climate models, because I a) lack support for doing so and I work for a living doing other things, and one cannot develop climate models as a hobby, it’s pretty serious business; b) if I were to develop a climate model, I would start with an open source model such as CAM and not reinvent any wheels I didn’t need to. I’ve actually gone as far as downloading CAM 3.0, but (as usual, sadly) the code is a nightmarish rat’s nest and is far, far from build ready. It would take even me (and yes, that is bragging) a week or two of serious work to get the code running on my local hardware, assuming it would fit; c) which is a problem, as my “local hardware” is now pretty much personally owned — my beowulf cluster of yesteryear is obsolete and gone away, and my personal “cluster” is a single multicore workstation plus a handful of multicore laptops. That actually might be enough to run CAM, slowly, on top of MPI, but to finish any sort of serious computation even to validate that the CAM build is working would take a long time. For a baaad meaning of the word long. In order to run and finish any sort of serious work in even your lifetime, I would need a real cluster, and to buy a real cluster I ‘d need support, see a).
That hasn’t stopped me from reading the source code and documentation for CAM, and I have a pretty good idea of how it works. But you are naive in the extreme if you think that it is easy, or even possible, to do a serious check of CAM or any other GCM without substantial support. It’s a full-time job, really a full-time job for several people, and requires a dedicated parallel supercomputer with hundreds to thousands of nodes. Remember, they are trying to cover the 5 x 10^8 km^2 surface area (x 10 km in height, plus some possible cells in the ocean with depth) with cells that are at most 10^4 km^2 — CAM is more like 10^5 km^2. So one needs to integrate anywhere from 10^4 to 10^6 cells decades into the future in e.g. 5 minute timesteps, solving systems of coupled differential or difference equations with at least nearest neighbor coupling in a Markov approximation. This isn’t something you’re going to easily, or quickly, do on any small cluster, although CAM is coarse grained enough one probably COULD get it to run on a comparatively small cluster.
Hopefully, that answers all of your questions. Note well that one doesn’t have to run the code in order to decide whether or not you trust the result, any more than one has to personally perform a double blind, placebo controlled study to decide if you trust experimental evidence that an antibiotic can usually cure a particular disease. Nobody should trust a marginal result (one with a p-value close to the arbitrary level one considers “significant”) because of the ease of accidental data dredging and because the world is littered with the scientific corpses of well-reported marginal results. Everybody should trust a non-marginal result validated by multiple independent researchers (especially by at least a few with no vested interest or investment in the antibiotic in question), where the probability of the data given the null hypothesis of no effect is so small that it might as well be zero. Why do you think climate science models are any different, or get a “by” on validation outside of training data?
The really sad thing is that the IPCC openly acknowledges this, repeatedly, in the various ARs. I’m too lazy to look up the exact quotes, but AR3 clearly stated that the models had little skill, couldn’t be relied on to make quantitative predictions, and that this situation might well not change in the future due to the difficulty of the problem — before going on and using them to make quantitative projections, as if changing the name from skill-free predictions to unvalidated projections made it ok to use them as if they were predictions without the annoyance of having to survive a hypothesis test, that is, show some skill at solving the problem they were trying to solve in comparison with future data.
A practice that continues today. In a single paragraph in AR5 the following statement is made:

As a result, collections such as the CMIP5 MME cannot be considered a random sample of independent models. This complexity creates challenges for how best to make quantitative inferences of future climate…

Translation: We have no axiomatically defensible way of arguing that the MME mean is more accurate than any of the contributing models, and the variance of this mean is meaningless as an indicator of the probable error.
In the next paragraph they then indicate that yes, they really should subject the individual models to a hypothesis test before including them, yes, they should use Bayesian methods to refine the models by altering their hypotheses to reduce disagreement with the real world or to make meaningful error estimates on their predictions, yes, they should take into account the non-independence of the models — none of this, of course, is actually done in figure 9.8a or in most of the work done on the basis of the models, but it certainly should be done.
When it is done, it will rigorously reduce climate sensitivity and increase error estimates though, though, (because the models systematically run too hot, duh) which rigorously reduces the impetus to invest huge amounts of money ameliorating the hypothetical climate catastrophe. What if the corrected model(s) showed that there was no catastrophe to be expected? All of those modellers, potentially out of a job. All of those peasants who’ve paid hundreds of billions of dollars to fix a non-event, armed with pitchforks and torches. All of those congressional subpoenas. Heads could roll. Literally. Prison sentences might well loom if even a hint of academic dishonesty or a cavalier statistical treatment supported by confirmation bias and cherrypicking came to light, because this isn’t like making a self-correcting stupid mistake about seeing a trans-luminal neutrino and announcing it before it is thoroughly checked and confirmed, it costs real money and lives all over the world on the basis of statements made that trade on the presumed honesty of the science. The reputation of science itself would suffer, everywhere.
It’s one of many reasons I, and a surprising number of my colleagues, care, and don’t take the many pronouncements of doom as seriously as you might think that they do if you read silly contrived sound-bite statements such as “97% of scientists agree”. First, 97% of all scientists don’t agree on pretty much anything. Well, maybe gravity. Or maybe not even gravity. Isn’t that really just spacetime curvature? Or rather, I meant to say a field mediated by gravitons? Or is it really a matter of interactions in string theory at the Planck length? Perhaps not even gravity.
Second, the polls quoted were silly polls, and didn’t ask the right questions. They poll one question, but then attribute the “97%” to a completely different conclusion, and the 97% itself is sketchy in the extreme. Honestly conducted polls find that only around 90% of climate scientists believe in anthropogenic global warming, and that over half of them think that there is now and will be some anthropogenic global warming in the future but it probably won’t be catastrophic. I’d guess that the fraction that “believe” in non-catastrophic warming is increasing, given that climate sensitivity is in free fall and will continue that way unless/until warming clearly resumes.
Anyway, personally I hope you reconsider your decision to avoid WUWT and/or threads like this one. Yes, sometimes you’ll take some heat for daring to advance the notion that CAGW/CACC is a proven reality — but that’s the whole point of the venue. You can advance that point of view; but you’d better be prepared to defend it. And listen to people who will try very hard to convince you that you are wrong. No, the discussion won’t be devoid of logical fallacy, and people may call you names, but most of us disapprove of that when it does happen.
rgb

September 6, 2014 7:49 am

Khwarizmi, you lectured Peter on Logic 101, the ad hominem fallacy, yet you failed to similarly lecture those you agree with on their Furtive Fallacies, to wit: “climate scientists are in it for the funding,” “there is more milk in the teat,”, etc. They attribute what they term as “alarmist” or even false reports on GW/CC to the claimed malfeasance of climate scientists. Shame on you and them.
No one here seems to understand the basic science involved in GW/CC, nor how to properly study it, yet they throw their textbook equations and advanced degrees at each other like insecure children. Get into the real world and out of the ivory tower; they are two different realities.

Reply to  George Grubbs
September 9, 2014 10:05 am

George Grubbs
You write

No one here seems to understand the basic science involved in GW/CC, nor how to properly study it, yet they throw their textbook equations and advanced degrees at each other like insecure children.

NO! You nasty little troll!
You demanded the qualifications of regbatduke and he gave them together with much other information, explanation and detail. You now pretend that he boasted of them when in reality he had replied to your demand.
Academic qualifications are not taken as evidence of anything here, they are rarely cited, and they are ignored. They are NOT thrown at each other precisely to avoid the childish and untrue accusation you make and I have quoted.
Your claim that rgbatduke doesn’t understand the basic science of the global warming scare is laughable in light of his reply to you. And several of us who contribute here have published ion the subject!
Are you an employed troll?
If you are then your performance does not merit you getting your pay.
Richard

Reply to  richardscourtney
September 9, 2014 3:12 pm

You need to seek help.

Reply to  richardscourtney
September 9, 2014 3:25 pm

Before you go see your psychiatrist, examine my statement to RGB who I have said here has presented solid and credible claims regarding the global warming issue. I hope his statements hold up to peer scrutiny. Here is my statement regarding his credentials that you so vehemently condemn while assassinating my character and reputation. I forgive you in advance of you asking for forgiveness. And, I hope you enjoy your mental masturbation.
“Dr. Robert Brown of Duke is a good choice for physics. I hope he works for you for free. But what experience does he have in advanced applied mathematics (is he a PhD mathematician?), math modeling, computer simulation development/validation, computer software development, and big data analysis/data mining IN THE REAL WORLD? I hope you guys win the Nobel Prize when you prove GW/CC false. I will not be holding my breath.”
So, I am asking for his “experience.” He does not have much, if any, real world experience in the disciplines I mentioned that pertain the climate change forecasting. So, my mentally unstable friend, I wish you the best. And, don’t forget to take your meds!
Oh, “I hope you guys win the Nobel Prize when you prove GW/CC false” as you spend hours upon hours trying to do here when you’re not insulting other commenters. Hey, write a paper and have it published in “Science.” See what kind of response you get.
Have a nice day. 🙂

RACookPE1978
Editor
September 7, 2014 7:57 am

George Grubbs
September 7, 2014 at 7:35 am
That does not mean that I imply that the danger to people around the world is inevitable or imminent. I may not believe that at all.
Indeed, your minimization of the effects of GW/CC is dangerously ignorant of the facts on the ground; emperical reality; that is, climate data collected and analyzed, and projections made based on clearly defined assumptions. This is not model data, but model validation data from the real world. This doesn’t mean these projections will happen with certainty; each has an associated likelihood based on its set of assumptions about future climate events and remediation implementations. .
In fact, it is you and those of like OPINION who are exaggerating, thus lulling the public and officials into a false sense of security. It is basically propaganda. You have no idea when global warming will pick back up and you have no idea how long it will last or how severe it will be, or what its acceleration will be.. There are climate scientists and atmopheric physicists who study this everyday and collect and analyze data everyday. Their job is to report their findings in scholarly journals with their research reports and findings subject to peer review, thus gaining a good measure of objectivity. .

Providing them a false sense of security?
Well, YOU are actually murdering people each year with your ACTUAL sense of security and faith-based belief in your models: Am I to stand by as innocents world-wide are crucified on your belief that the models and the government-paid so-called “scientists” are correct?
25,000 “excess” people died of the cold and in the UK alone last year due to your energy policies and deliberate high prices mandated by the false CAGW promise of a possible heatup in year 2100 possibly causing problems maybe. So these 2,150,000 deaths between now and 2100 are the real result of YOUR fears of that possible problem, but many million others worldwide are killed each year literally by parasites (dirty water due to no concrete, no steel, no power to clean and distribute pure water, to treat their sewage, to store their food, to grow and harvest more food, to clean and wash their dishes, to filter their air now polluted as they cook their meals over the heat only possible by dried dung, harvested by hand from the animals they feed by hand.
And YOU want that life of early deaths and lives spent in dirt, poverty, and want for these people? Why?
Because YOU want them to die this way every day, in every other country of the world?
The climate priests of your religion are far from objective: The objective facts are that today’s energy provides good results that people want and and need, that save lives, improve their lives, and improve the world. The CO2 released from some of these energy systems also provides only good – only value no measured dangers (except the propaganda spewed by your religion of a future harm unless we kill innocents now) and has resulted in a 7 to 23% increase in every plant growing worldwide in every country and province. More food, more fodder, more fuel, more farms, more fish and less famine!
The climate priest whom you worship do have a job: That job is to justify to their government program managers the 1.3 trillion in new taxes and political control made possible by their computer programs promising uncertain future climate change so their politicians can maintain their control over the people living their politician’s world.

Reply to  RACookPE1978
September 7, 2014 8:28 am

Geez, again you commit logical fallacy after logical fallacy. “I am a murderer,” “faith-based belief,” “innocents are crucified,” “so-called” scientists, and so on ad nauseum. Argument from hyperbole, more strawmen arguments, more red herring arguments, false, shallow statements and claims with nothing to substantiate them … your responose is nothing short of an emotional personal rant.
I can’t have a reasonable and rational discussion with someone who continually commits these fallicies. We are not getting anywhere. I have more important things to think about and write about than constantly answer you and point out the weakinesses in your arguments.
Therefore, I am retiring from this thead seeing that I have to deal with dogmatism and beliefs that approach a trance-line religious state based on emotion and ignorance, and I believe, greed and self-interest (a personal belief based on common threads in the preponderance of ‘Comments’ responses.
You will have to seek out someone else to ply your illogical arguments trade on.
My offer to assist you in developing a quantifiable alternative theory to the current theories of GW/CC scenarios still stands. By the way, my services will be free of charge ,and I will supply the computer power, and brain power.
G.

s.tracton
Reply to  George Grubbs
September 7, 2014 8:43 am

George, this is the deny-o-sphere. You cannot expect logic and reason from people that reject basic science. But kudo for your efforts to bring rationality to this web site.
REPLY: What you can expect though, is to be put in the bit bucket when you start calling people names, and make baseless taunts. Your claim about “reflecting basic science” should start here. – Anthony

Reply to  s.tracton
September 7, 2014 8:46 am

Thanks, you sound like a comforting voice from the wilderness.

RACookPE1978
Editor
Reply to  George Grubbs
September 7, 2014 10:10 pm

25,000 died in the UK due to YOUR belief in Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming and the UK/EU/US governments’ requirements that YOU support to “end it” (or control it) by deliberately increasing energy prices and deliberately restricting energy availability as YOU try to limit beneficial CO2 increases because YOU believe that CO2 must be limited.
Now, why did they die? YOU. So, what is the hyperbole?
They died. YOU caused those needless deaths because of YOUR beliefs in CAGW prevention that – unless limited by your actions – might cause harm in 2100.
But. CO2 is not causing harm now.
It is only creating good.
It is increasing the life of every green plant on earth, and every living thing dependent on that plant for life.
It is increasing the health and safety and life of each person using CO2 beneficially.
And the potential harm that you fear is NOT occurring, and CANNOT be shown to be linked to any harm the past 18 years, the past 36 years, the past 360 years. .

Lars P.
Reply to  George Grubbs
September 9, 2014 2:04 am

George, you have not answered any one argument or sentence of the previous post. Your post says RACookPE1978’s post is full of logical fallacies, but fail to name one.
Before posting your answer, please just try to read, understand what RACookPE1978 said and then if there is a flaw explain it clearly to him.
You say: “I can’t have a reasonable and rational discussion with someone who continually commits these fallicies ” but you do not even try. a rational debate.
Why that? Are you so afraid of being proved wrong? Many people act out of what they sense to be “the right thing” and do not bear to look critical, logical at what are they doing. Is it really the right thing to do?
You say: “My offer to assist you in developing a quantifiable alternative theory to the current theories of GW/CC scenarios still stands.”
There is no need to develop new theories. Why should RACookPE1978 or anybody have to develop new theory to prove another wrong? The “catastrophic” GW theory (CAGW) is wrong, it is clearly failing to provide valid predictions. There are many flaws and false assumptions in the theory which are being highlighted again and again.
So the question is why do you go to the lengths of ad hominem for a failed theory?
The CO2 contribution to the warming itself might be well overstated:
http://claesjohnson.blogspot.co.at/search/label/greenhouse%20effect
and feedbacks are clearly wrong.
However the beneficial contributions from CO2 are clear for everybody who wants to look at:
http://www.co2science.org/data/plant_growth/dry/dry_subject.php

Eric
September 8, 2014 11:15 pm

I have a BA in Political Science, a MA in Peace and Conflict Resolution and a Ph.D. in International Political Economy. All three disciplines are filled with reams of pseudoscience and unproductive methods of discourse, that distract from learning. My studies do not provide me the ability to argue the science behind climate change. However, they do give me a keen radar for word salad. This thread is a spectacular example of wasted effort, where good information is continuously obscured by absolutist statements and personal attacks.

September 9, 2014 6:29 am

Lars, go back and read my responses to RACook and you will see “ad hominem,” “red herring,” and others. I agree with Eric on these comments. That’s why I am going elsewhere to seek solid information on Matt Ridley’s assertions.

September 9, 2014 3:29 pm

RichardsCourtney: You have your timing wrong. I made the comment about some people throwing around degrees BEFORE RGB responded with his very long, detailed and unnecessary vita.

Reply to  George Grubbs
September 10, 2014 9:32 am

George Grubbs
Your post at September 9, 2014 at 3:29 pm says in total

RichardsCourtney: You have your timing wrong. I made the comment about some people throwing around degrees BEFORE RGB responded with his very long, detailed and unnecessary vita.

Those lies are merely more of your trolling.
At September 7, 2014 at 10:00 am you wrote saying in total

Dr. Robert Brown of Duke is a good choice for physics. I hope he works for you for free. But what experience does he have in advanced applied mathematics (is he a PhD mathematician?), math modeling, computer simulation development/validation, computer software development, and big data analysis/data mining IN THE REAL WORLD? I hope you guys win the Nobel Prize when you prove GW/CC false. I will not be holding my breath.

Two days later rgbatduke replied to that at September 9, 2014 at 9:42 am in a message that began

Dearest Mr. Grubbs,
Since you questioned my credentials, I am happy to provide them. Ph.D. in theoretical physics (dissertation on multiple scattering theory solution to single electron problem in crystal band theory). …

And you responded less than an hour later with a pack of lies at September 9, 2014 at 10:52 am which began

RGB, I never questioned your credentials. You must have me confused with someone else. …

No, you malign liar, as rgbatduke pointed out at September 9, 2014 at 3:31 pm you very specifically “questioned {his} credentials” when you wrote, “But what experience does he have in advanced applied mathematics (is he a PhD mathematician?), math modeling, computer simulation development/validation, computer software development, and big data analysis/data mining IN THE REAL WORLD?”
But you did not withdraw. Instead, you had the brass neck to try to excuse your lies in your posts at September 9, 2014 at 3:53 pm and September 9, 2014 at 4:18 pm where you said you were “signing off” but did not.
rgbatduke replied at September 10, 2014 at 8:48 am by providing additional CV.
And then you started to throw around insults like confetti.
At that I made a post in hope of stopping your disruption or – at least – avoiding your wasting more time and effort from rgbatduke because his time and effort are highly valued here. At September 9, 2014 at 10:05 am I wrote this post which says in total

George Grubbs
You write

No one here seems to understand the basic science involved in GW/CC, nor how to properly study it, yet they throw their textbook equations and advanced degrees at each other like insecure children.

NO! You nasty little troll!
You demanded the qualifications of regbatduke and he gave them together with much other information, explanation and detail. You now pretend that he boasted of them when in reality he had replied to your demand.
Academic qualifications are not taken as evidence of anything here, they are rarely cited, and they are ignored. They are NOT thrown at each other precisely to avoid the childish and untrue accusation you make and I have quoted.
Your claim that rgbatduke doesn’t understand the basic science of the global warming scare is laughable in light of his reply to you. And several of us who contribute here have published ion the subject!
Are you an employed troll?
If you are then your performance does not merit you getting your pay.
Richard

And that resulted in your post I am answering which – as I have itemised – consists entirely of lies. And, importantly, does not answer (nor mention) my question.
You really, really are a most unpleasant and egregious troll. Please take your disruptive lies elsewhere.
Richard

September 9, 2014 3:36 pm

I must say that many of these statements and purported arguments sound very much like they come from “Tea Party” true believers – those same type of arguments that try to shoot down the Theory of Evolution and surrepticiously try to sneak “Creationism” into our schools’ science curricula. RGB is the only commenter I have read that has said anything of substance, but his claims need to be validated.

Reply to  George Grubbs
September 11, 2014 12:19 am

George Grubbs
I must say that all of your statements and purported arguments sound very much like they come from the Mad Hatter’s Tea Party.
Your statements are mostly falsehoods, say nothing of substance, and fail to withstand scrutiny.
Richard

Tom
September 11, 2014 6:47 am

Get real guys. Climate change is real and serious. We have increased CO2 levels worldwide by 50% in the last 100 years or so and we are paying the price already. We currently have no way of taking the carbon dioxide back out of the atmosphere and we have vastly reduced mother natures forests so we can’t expect much help from her. The worlds climate is not stable and we have pushed it too far.
We need to stop pumping out more and get our grandchildren ready for a rough ride.