The Tyranny of Tautology

A response to A conversation with Dr. Roger Pielke Jr.

Guest essay by Scott Bennett

Willis Eschenbach described the Kaya Identity as being “trivially true”, his opinion is uncontested by Dr Pielke Jr., whose only retort in its defence was, ‘the math is simple’.

The Kaya is a simple Identity, used as a tautological instrument. To deny this, would be to deny the very heart of its utility. The algebraic cancellation and isolation of its terms is de rigueur for its use.

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Fig. 1. The “Kaya Identity” as depicted in the lecture by Dr Roger Pielke Jr. : Climate Policy for a High Energy Planet4

I really wanted to understand how the Identity was actually applied, both mathematically and as a “tool” of policy discourse. To that end, I spent several days grappling with Kaya, as demonstrated by Dr Pielke Jr. .

When I felt I fully understood its application, I turned to the real world, from whence the model was presumably derived.

It doesn’t take very long to see why the Kaya is being used as an instrument of policy. Examining the real world, makes it abundantly obvious, just what a stake-to-the-heart, reality is, for policy wonks!

The Kaya’s real value is in its use, as a claim to authority. It is a construct, designed to frame the debate and thus isolate and compartmentalise contradiction.

Everywhere I looked, the terms as factors of total emissions where erroneous. But how could this be, I wondered? It seemed reasonable to suppose that the factors as given in the Kaya, according to Dr Pielke Jr., are the ‘only levers available in the tool box’.

I spent some time gathering data and comparing real places. More and more I began to see, that there was a fundamental factor missing. How is it possible that emissions weren’t a direct measure of the energy intensity of GDP and the efficiency of its energy production? Clearly there was a missing factor that was making the proportionality of the Kaya’s terms aberrant. Some hidden input was providing efficiencies that oddly, reduced the size of real world terms, making their ratios, counter intuitive!

But before I reveal what it is, I will tell you why it was left out! It was censored because it exposes the fact that the relationships of the Kaya are not universally applicable (Across the countries of the world). The inclusion of this important term renders the Kaya impotent as a tool of national policy.

Truly, the phrase “one size does not fit all” could never be ascribed more applicably than to the Kaya Identity!

Land area1 is the missing term and including it makes it very difficult to compare economies directly, and at the same time keep a straight face!

Ratios like, population density and emissions per km, would seem to be, essential aspects of any genuine and realistic analysis. Without this quantity it is irrational to compare national emissions and their individual contribution to the global total.

Singapore, with the world’s highest population density, is 11,000 times smaller than Australia. Australia’s land area represents 5% of the Earth’s surface, while its emissions are just 1% of the global total. The entirety of Europe2 fits inside Australia with room to spare.

Singapore’s population is 4 times smaller than Australia, its GDP is 5 times smaller, its emissions are 3 times smaller and its total energy usage is 45 times smaller. Yet, using the ratio of Emissions/GDP3, we find that Singapore produces 1.7 times more CO2 emissions for every dollar of GDP than Australia. This isn’t a real mystery, when you realise that not all GDPs are equal, of course!

It is probably safe to say that the resources in Australia’s vast land area, something Singapore lacks, is the missing factor in this case. The numbers are also strongly at odds with the assumptions spruiked by Kaya devotees, because Singapore produces all its electricity from natural gas while Australia is coal fired!

It is also probably not a surprise, that with such a small land area, Singapore produces 3,500 times the CO2 per km compared to Australia’s tiny contribution of just 5.5 kt/km.

This is the weakness of the Kaya. It can’t be universally applied. As soon as you compare figures across countries you discover the logical fallacies inherent in it.

Australia’s ratio of, emissions to GDP, is just double that of France. If emissions per square kilometre are compared however, France emits 12 times that of Australia.

It is clear why governments around the world aren’t rushing to embrace the logic of the Kaya. They understand, that they would be ill advised to do so. The Kaya is a tool of the global minded, useless for national policy, that reveals with perfect clarity, the hubris of groupthink and the latent stupidity of collectivist ambitions.

=============================================================

Notes:

1. Absolute values are given here, rather than “Real Land Area” which is of less relevance to the geography of climate.

2. Western Eurasia excluding Asia and Russia. The West or Western Europe.

3. This ratio is demonstrated in Dr Pielke’s lecture! The intent here, is to highlight that its “usefulness” also extends to invalidating the relationships between all four terms of the Kaya itself 😉

4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTUE5Ue6Z38

UPDATE: Dr. Roy Spencer has a nice simplification of the terms cancelling issue here in The Kaya Identity Crisis

UPDATE2: Elevated from a comment.

The problem with the Kaya identity is in its application, not in its arithmetic or ability to produce a bit of understanding about the real world. It is being used to help generate policy; long term policy that will be around for decades. It is being used to generate a meme; a way of thinking that will influence decision makers for many years to come.

The Kaya identity begins with the assumption that CO2 emissions MUST be reduced. RPjr stated in his video that it wasn’t even worth talking about the science of climate change anymore. He implied that there was absolutely no point in even discussing climate sensitivity to CO2 emissions and that such discussions are actually harmful. (I was gobsmacked!) The Kaya identity is part of the meme that proclaims “The science is settled!” He argues that it doesn’t matter what the science says about CO2′s impact. The Kaya identity is valid regardless. While that may be true for the identity, it is just stupid to carry that thinking over to the process of making policy. There is nothing more important than the science in making good policy decisions.

The Kaya identity ends with disaster. It is inherently linear in every aspect. The world is inherently non-linear in every aspect. The Kaya identity gives an illusion of knowledge and wisdom to decision makers; convincing them that they will be making good choices. In reality, there is a near zero chance that policies resulting from the use of the Kaya identity will be positive. The outcomes from such policies will range from bad to disastrous.

The Kaya identity gives decision makers the idea that they actually have a control knob. A half turn to the right gives a certain result every time. A half turn to the left gives another result, but just as predictable and dependable as the half turn to the right. This is a complete illusion!

Using the Kaya identity to make policy is like deciding to paddle your raft with two strokes on the right, followed by two strokes on the left, for the entire duration of your trip down the Colorado river. Such a strategy will not get you very far and may actually kill you. They way to paddle your raft down the Colorado river is by constantly assessing your current situation and deciding the best possible paddle strokes for that moment.

The same is true for climate change policy. There is no need to implement solutions today that will solve all climate change problems for the next 100 years. In fact, that would be impossible, and any attempt to do it would almost certainly cause more harm than good. In order to make good decisions, those decisions should be focused on the short term, and the main objective should be the strengthening of the position of future decision makers. That means the current policies should promote adaptability in all areas while enhancing the financial strength of future generations to deal with their issues; issues that they will certainly understand far better than we do today. It means the science is constantly assessed, along with the current state of the population and their needs. It means the UN should be concentrating on potable water for all of humanity today and not on the average global temperature 100 years from now.

The use of the Kaya identity rationalizes the bad decision making process. It allows decision makers to ignore the vital importance of adaptability and weaken the financial strength of future generations. It is the height of hubris and the antithesis of wisdom to use the Kaya identity in the manner it is being used by the United Nations and other bureau-crazies; and apparently promoted by Roger Pielke, Jr; a man I admire and respect, but strongly disagree with on this topic.

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July 24, 2014 7:58 pm

mjc says:
July 24, 2014 at 7:38 pm
Yes, mjc, you are correct that population (or GDP) is an integer number (not a unit) at a given time. However, since both population and GDP can and usually do vary with time for a given economy, it would be more correctly termed a “variable” rather than a “constant”.
Regards
Dan

Shawnhet
July 24, 2014 8:22 pm

Dr. Doug says:
July 24, 2014 at 12:30 pm
“Nonetheless, I’m not sure how much would be gained by quantifying the effect of land area on E/GDP. Land area is not itself a policy variable. Perhaps it might be useful to look at something more concrete like land-freight ton-miles (or tonne-kilometres), which may depend on land area (or more generally on geography), along with energy usage per ton-mile. The latter is potentially a policy variable, for example in promoting railways over trucks (lorries).”
I also am not sure what tying in the effect of land on E/GDP would gain us but it *might* enable us to suggest new policy options that are not obviously apparent. I, personally, don’t really believe that the OP has found a meaningful way of relating land to the rest of the Kaya factors but I do believe that such a meaningful relationship might well exist. OTOH, maybe something like E/(ton-mile)*tonnage*total miles might be a better way to think about this stuff. Or maybe none of this stuff will add anything at all – I certainly can’t tell at this point.
Johan says:
July 24, 2014 at 1:06 pm
““Land area” is not what matters, but the “availability of natural resources”. And that could be a relevant “policy variable”. In the same sense that a country could try to improve its energy intensity (by means of introducing more energy efficient technologies), that same country could also try to improve the efficiency with which it “extracts and uses” it natural resources (including both replenishable and non-replenishable resources).”
If the OP is talking about resources, his wording is very poor. Most people would consider that Kuwait has lots of resources and little land – so what is its L value? Perhaps you have something in mind here, but I have a hard time even imagining how one could measure the availability of resources in a way that will combine all sorts of resources into a single number. How would you measure the resources in Kuwait? What units would you use? How about Russia and Japan?
More fundamentally what makes a resource? If a particular type of appliance generates a demand for a particular(formerly useless non-resource) mineral- how do we measure the increase in L? What happens to L if that appliance stops using that mineral?
Cheers, 🙂

mjc
July 24, 2014 8:29 pm

The thing is, you are going to be working with ‘snapshots’ so neither really applies…but calling them units is definitely way off the mark.
One class short of a math major before chucking it all…decided it wasn’t worth when my differential calculus prof said the expected time to complete the one equation assigned for homework was the entire weekend And that was over 25 yrs ago, so my ‘in depth’ math skills are bit rusty.

garymount
July 24, 2014 9:29 pm

Dr. Doug says:
July 24, 2014 at 4:23 pm
Gary, if you read Roger Pielke Jr.’s work (linked in the previous post), you’ll see that technological advance appears twice within the Kaya framework:…

Ah, well, i don’t have the stomach for Pielke jr. Let me put it this way then. The policies to reduce CO2 emissions could slow down the development of technology and make things worse for no benefits.

Jim Clarke
July 24, 2014 10:02 pm

JamesNV says:
July 24, 2014 at 1:32 pm
“If you had the ears of policy makers, would you continue to argue about uncertainties (and quickly lose the ears of policy makers) or would you try to mitigate some of the damage they were about to do?”
If I had the ears of policy makers, I would demonstrate the futility and danger inherent in what they are trying to do. Do you remember the movie ‘War Games’? In the climax of that movie, they teach the computer the futility of nuclear war by first playing countless games of tic-tac-toe, a futile game for any modestly intelligent players. The computer learned that some games have no winners.
In this case, we would play Kaya games. They would be instructed to pick any problem that faced any society in the past and, based on the knowledge of that time, construct a simple identity that defined the problem. Then they would be instructed to research what actually happened to resolve the issue. In almost every case, the solution would not be forthcoming from the ‘identity’, and tweaking the identity ‘knobs’ would have made the situation worse, not better. They would learn that using such identities to develop long term policy would almost invariably do more harm than good.
So what should they do? I described that in my post this morning:
“In order to make good decisions, those decisions should be focused on the short term, and the main objective should be the strengthening of the position of future decision makers. That means the current policies should promote adaptability in all areas while enhancing the financial strength of future generations to deal with their issues; issues that they will certainly understand far better than we do today. It means the science is constantly assessed, along with the current state of the population and their needs.”

Jim Clarke
July 24, 2014 10:39 pm

Dr. Doug says:
July 24, 2014 at 11:50 am
“Jim, any policy tool can be used either well or poorly. Don’t you see value in Pielke’s conclusions about British energy policy?”
No, because the assumption that ‘CO2 emissions must be reduced’ is not valid. The science does not support the assumption and, even if it did, the British energy policy would have no discernible impact on the issue. It will be all pain and no gain for the Brits. They will be less able to contribute to a future solution because they will be handicapped by the proposed regulations now. Those are the facts!
It would be far better for the British people, today and for the generations to come, if they concentrated on the most efficient use of their limited resources to promote the economic strength and physical adaptability of their systems. The ‘marginal’ or future changes to the system should be decided on those principles. The implementation of the Kaya identity works against those goals. It does more harm than good by sacrificing the present for a hypothetical future (described by the Kaya identity) that has almost no chance of happening!

July 24, 2014 11:39 pm

Forrest Gardener says:
“C = P*(GDP/P)*(TE/GDP)*(C/TE)
If P is doubled, then C remains unchanged. Perhaps the C on the RHS is not the same as the C on the LHS.”
C doesn’t (necessarily) remains unchanged, it depends on the other values/ratios. If all the other ratios remain unchanged (while P doubles), then C doubles. However, if the ratios remain unchanged, then for example GDP has to double too, in order for GDP/P to remain unchanged (2GDP/2P). Energy has to double too, for TE/GDP to remain unchanged (2TE/2GDP). C has to double in order for C/TE to remain unchanged (2C/2TE).
After doubling of P, C can amount to any value value, depending on the other ratios (GDP/P, TE/GDP, C/TE). There are infinite number of changes in the ratios, which amount to unchanged C. Basically:
C2/C1 = RHS2/RHS1,
C2 =C1*RHS2/RHS1
Only if RHS2/RHS1 equals 1, then C remains unchanged (C2 = C1).

dp
July 25, 2014 12:04 am

It gives the illusion of having control knobs

Only if you are stupid. If you get illusions of control knobs from any mathematical identity you are in over your head and should probably spend more time at other interests.

john robertson
July 25, 2014 12:14 am

Jim Clarke.
Great Comment.
So it is a Rorchach test.
The Kaya Identity means whatever you need it to mean.
This is post #4 on this tool of bureaucracy.
What I find most interesting is the various POV, many of which require assumptions not spelt out in this poorly expressed “creation”.
Communication is only possible(meaningful) if the terms are agreed upon.
This thing, Kaya Identity,does little to enhance communication.
Seems designed to prevent understanding,almost a perfect device for the Cult of Calamitous Carbon Dioxide.AKA the IPCC.

July 25, 2014 1:50 am

DanMet’al:
You (deliberately ?) get everything the wrong way round in your post at July 24, 2014 at 7:04 pm that says to Dr. Doug

But I must say I fully agree with your most recent comment (cited above). In particularly, there seems to be a subset of Kaya objectors who reject it mainly because they feel that it can be abused by the warmists.

NO! The main objection to the propaganda tool known as the ‘Kaya Identity’ is that it only has one use, and that use is to frame discussion on the basis of warmunist prejudices to the complete exclusion of logic, evidence and science.
Simply, the ‘Kaya Identity’ is a special case of the Big Lie propaganda tactic and it has no other possible purpose than promotion of ‘Big Lie’.

I recognise that warmunists have difficulty understanding that some of us trust logic, evidence and science more than what we “feel”, but please try to understand that your emphasis on feelings is regarded idiocy by we rationalists.
Richard

July 25, 2014 2:52 am

Edit: ” total emissions where erroneous ” — were.

July 25, 2014 3:09 am

Fundamentals matter. CO2 is a valuable planetary resource, so Australia is far more productive per capita than Singapore.

Editor
July 25, 2014 4:04 am

Willis – thanks for your analysis. Yes, the Kaya identity is a convenient distortion whose “real value is in its use, as a claim to authority“. I think there is more wrong with it than you have covered in your article (not a criticism : there is a limit to how much one article can cover). Take, for example, emissions/GDP : the claim to authority embedded in this is that countries need to enforce the reduction of their rate of emission per unit of GDP (think carbon tax, ETS, mandatory renewable energy target, etc). But, as you indicate, the equation is not as linearly simple as that. The fact is that cheap energy is a major driver of GDP, and fossil fuels have been and still are the dominant source of cheap energy. You can’t simply enforce the replacement of some or all of the energy with lower-CO2-emitting energy, and expect anything remotely like a proportional result in ’emissions/GDP’ – if the replacement energy is more expensive than the energy it replaces (and by definition, in a competitive economy it will be more expensive otherwise it would already be being used) then the product of the energy becomes less affordable and less competitive, hence everything in the economy gets squeezed and the end result is that GDP is reduced. And that is likely to be a disaster for everyone. That is not allowed for in the Kaya identity – and nor are many other important real-world factors.
The Kaya identity is based on a zero-sum way of thinking, and its uses are deliberately top-down. ie, wrt real life its usage gets everything exactly backwards.

Joseph Murphy
July 25, 2014 4:35 am

dp says:
July 25, 2014 at 12:04 am
It gives the illusion of having control knobs
Only if you are stupid. If you get illusions of control knobs from any mathematical identity you are in over your head and should probably spend more time at other interests.
————
dp, are you actually argueing that the identity is not used for predictive purposes in policy making? Don’t get me wrong, I agree that it does not demonstrate control knobs. But, I have no doubt that politicians and others see kaya and think they can predict what will happen to CO2 emissions if they shut down sugar cane farming in Florida and drop GDP .3% (making up numbers). Thats the issue. It is very hard for people to understand that this does not represent a relationship between the variables.

John West
July 25, 2014 5:41 am

richardscourtney repeats:
”There is NO EVIDENCE for anthropogenic global warming (AGW); n.b. none zilch, nada.”
Evidence: CO2 increases roughly correlates with documented warming and man emits CO2.
There, now you look rather more like a fanatic spouting a platitude than a scientist dispassionately evaluating and communicating information.
I’m not saying its convincing evidence. I’m saying you can find some evidence for any nutty hypothesis such as the ‘moon is made of cheese’ (it has the appearance of cheese, that’s evidence). Saying there’s no evidence for AGW puts you in a pretty precarious position in a debate whereas saying there’s no convincing evidence doesn’t.

You’re the one that convinced me that the majority of climate scientists in the warmist camp had gotten there honestly; that we should call CAGW a “bandwagon” instead of a hoax. How does that happen without some small teeny tiny shred of evidence no matter how trivial to support it?

Or as a prominent atmospheric physicist once put it:
“The influence of mankind on climate is trivially true and numerically insignificant.” – Richard Lindzen
Why would Richard Lindzen characterize it as trivially true if there were “no” (zero, zilch, nada) evidence for it?
All I’m saying is that “No” (Zero, Zilch, nada) is just too easily toppled by even the slightest bit of insignificant evidence.

July 25, 2014 6:00 am

John West says:
July 25, 2014 at 5:41 am
richardscourtney repeats:
”There is NO EVIDENCE for anthropogenic global warming (AGW); n.b. none zilch, nada.”

I suppose the question is: “What is meant by anthropogenic global warming (AGW)?
If they mean an anthropogenic contribution to global warming, then while there may not by conclusive proof, the science suggests, as Lindzen states, that it may be “trivially true and numerically insignificant.”
But, if they mean anthropogenic CO2 emissions are the CAUSE of global warming (which seems to be the description many apply to “AGW”), then no, there is no evidence.
At least, that’s my take.

ferdberple
July 25, 2014 7:01 am

The point of this article seems simple enough. REPLACE population (P) with land area (A) and the Kaya Identity is still true. Economic activity is then GDP/square km, not GDP/Person, yet the Kaya identity is still true.
C = A * G/A * E/G * C/E
The purpose of the Kaya Identity is simple. To paint Population (P) as the bad guy. That is why P is singled out on its own. However, when we replace P with A, the Identity still holds, so P cannot be the problem, rather A (surface area) is the problem.
So the Kaya solution to CO2 emissions is to make countries smaller, while keeping economic efficiency unchanged!! Which is just as nonsensical as changing the population and keeping economic efficiency unchanged.

ferdberple
July 25, 2014 7:08 am

A the heart of the Kaya Identity is this:
P * G/P
However, if we were to half the population we would get:
.5P * G/.5P
Which would not change CO2 emissions at all!!. So what Kaya is implying is that if we half the population we would actually get:
.5P * G/P
Which is at the very least misleading.

John West
July 25, 2014 8:01 am

The warmist case:
1) Burning fossil fuels releases CO2 into the atmosphere in quantities that exceed the natural sinks such that atmospheric CO2 increases even though anthropogenic sources are small in comparison to natural sources because they a large in comparison to sources not matched by sinks. Burning fossil fuels basically transfers carbon from the geologic carbon cycle into the biologic carbon cycle faster than the natural transfer from the biologic carbon cycle to the geologic carbon cycle causing an imbalance in the system manifested by an increase atmospheric CO2.
2) Doubling CO2 increases greenhouse effect (GHE) heat flux by about 3.7 W/m2 (per Q=5.35Ln(pCO2f/pCO2i)) and suppresses outgoing long wave radiation (IR) via absorption and re-emission.
3) The 3.7 W/m2 increase in down welling heat flux (Radiative Forcing (RF)) causes the surface to be warmer on average by significantly reducing net radiative heat loss at night and insignificantly adding to the direct heating during the day.
4) The warmer surface emits more IR and causes the atmosphere to become warmer via convection, conduction, and radiative heat transfer.
5) The earth-atmosphere system as a whole must warm enough for the effective radiative top of atmosphere (TOA ,~20km) to emit the additional IR to space, basically obtain radiative balance.
6) The climate warms about 1 degree Celsius on average globally to accomplish the initial radiative balancing on a decadal timescale termed the Transient Sensitivity (TS) or Transient Climate Response (TCR).
7) The 1 degree Celsius warming causes changes in the system such as increased humidity and changes in cloudiness which amplifies the warming to 3 degrees Celsius on a centurial timescale termed the Equilibrium Sensitivity(ES) or Equilibrium Climate Sensitivity (ECS), via an approximate feedback factor (ff) of about 0.8, (note: feedback factor is less than 1, so there’s no danger of “runaway” GW) described by dT=[ES][dRF] and [ES]=[TS] + (ff)[TS] + (ff)^2[TS] + (ff)^3[TS] + (ff)^4[TS] ……… to convergence for all practical purposes. (dT = change in temperature and dRF = change in radiative forcing)
8) 3 degrees C of warming globally on average above pre-industrial global average would cause significant harm to civilization(s) and ecosystems around the world.
Of course, we can poke holes in most if not all the above points but there is at least some tiny bit of evidence in support of each of these points. If someone is truly “on the fence” or just starting “to look at the issue for themselves” your arguments are going to be summarily dismissed if you try to tell them there’s “no” evidence for the above points in part or in whole. Our strength is that we can be totally and brutally honest; no hidden data, no lies of omission, no spin required. I can produce the warmist case above as diligently as I am capable with full confidence that it doesn’t meaningfully challenge the “skeptic’s case” that has been presented, developed, and refined right here at WUWT in both eloquent and not so eloquent posts and comments over many years. I guess if I had to sum up my objection to saying there’s “no” evidence for AGW is that it smacks of “the D word”.
Where’d that soap box come from? Why am I standing on it?

July 25, 2014 8:02 am

John West:
In your post at July 25, 2014 at 5:41 am you quote my having made the true and accurate statement

There is NO EVIDENCE for anthropogenic global warming (AGW); n.b. none zilch, nada.

And you reply with this nonsense

Evidence: CO2 increases roughly correlates with documented warming and man emits CO2.
There, now you look rather more like a fanatic spouting a platitude than a scientist dispassionately evaluating and communicating information.
I’m not saying its convincing evidence. I’m saying you can find some evidence for any nutty hypothesis such as the ‘moon is made of cheese’ (it has the appearance of cheese, that’s evidence). Saying there’s no evidence for AGW puts you in a pretty precarious position in a debate whereas saying there’s no convincing evidence doesn’t.

NO! Correlation is NOT evidence of causation.
That “CO2 increases roughly correlates with documented warming and man emits CO2” is NOT evidence for a causal relationship. Similarly, US postal costs roughly correlates with documented warming and the US government sets US postal costs. Similarly, and etc., etc., etc..
The is no evidence of anthropogenic (i.e. man-made) global warming (AGW); none, zilch nada.
My stating that scientific truth is a scientist dispassionately evaluating and communicating information as clearly and unambiguously as I can, and your misrepresentation cannot change that.
Importantly, my stating that truth does NOT may put me “in a pretty precarious position in a debate”. I have won every public debate on AGW in which I have been invited to participate, and I win by sticking rigidly to the truth.
You say to me

You’re the one that convinced me that the majority of climate scientists in the warmist camp had gotten there honestly; that we should call CAGW a “bandwagon” instead of a hoax. How does that happen without some small teeny tiny shred of evidence no matter how trivial to support it?

The answer is that snake-oil-salesmen don’t need real snakes to make snake oil. AGW-alarmists are selling fear of AGW, and the fear does not require real AGW to make it. This is why the alarmists have adopted the Kaya Identity: the adoption by-passes the fact that there is no evidence for AGW and discusses which ‘flavour’ of snake oil should be purchased.
To prove me wrong you only need to state one piece of evidence so you can claim, your Nobel Prizes.
And you fail in your attempt to isolate my factual view when you conclude by writing

Or as a prominent atmospheric physicist once put it:

The influence of mankind on climate is trivially true and numerically insignificant.

– Richard Lindzen
Why would Richard Lindzen characterize it as trivially true if there were “no” (zero, zilch, nada) evidence for it?
All I’m saying is that “No” (Zero, Zilch, nada) is just too easily toppled by even the slightest bit of insignificant evidence.

Lindzen is correct that the “influence of mankind on climate is trivially true and numerically insignificant”. People affect climate in many ways; e.g. the urban heat island effect(UHI). But it is so numerically insignificant that it cannot be discerned as a global effect.
Yes, the factual statement that there is no evidence for AGW would be “toppled” by provision of one, single, solitary bit of the slightest insignificant evidence. The power of the factual statement is that it cannot be “toppled” because it is true. As I said to you in my post at July 24, 2014 at 12:48 pm which you have answered

Contrary to your assertion,
There is NO EVIDENCE for anthropogenic global warming (AGW); n.b. none, zilch, nada.
Three decades of research conducted world-wide at a cost of more than US$5 billion per annum have failed to find any such evidence. If you think you have some then publish it because the discoverer of such evidence will be awarded at least one Novel Prize and probably several Nobel Prizes.
Evading the fact that there is no evidence for AGW is one of the purposes of propaganda tricks such as the Kaya Identity.

Richard

Joseph Murphy
July 25, 2014 9:03 am

ferdberple says:
July 25, 2014 at 7:01 am
——————————–
Exactly, it is not hard to demonstrate the Kaya identity has no predictive power. Those people using it (RPJR) are arguing that these variables do have some predictive power. They seem to be conveniently avoiding the point that Kaya doesn’t and they are also avoiding correcting people who use Kaya as a predictive tool. After watching some lectures by RPJR in order to try to figure out this ‘identity’, I am not impressed with the kaya identity (by definition there is no reason for anyone to be) and I am even less impressed with RPJR’s work.

John West
July 25, 2014 10:21 am

richardscourtney says:
”Correlation is NOT evidence of causation.
Of course it is. Try having causation without correlation. Correlation is not CONCLUSIVE PROOF of causation or in statistical parlance doesn’t imply causation, but it is evidence albeit of a circumstantial variety. Correlation is evidence that is more than ‘none, nada, zilch’ but less than convincing.

Bart
July 25, 2014 10:29 am

ferdberple says:
July 25, 2014 at 7:08 am
“However, if we were to half the population we would get:
.5P * G/.5P”

No, the P and G/P are essentially independent. With half the population, we get
.5P * (G/P)
The GDP per capita is assumed not to change with a change in the population. It is assumed that each worker, each “capita”, puts in the same effort before the population change as after.

Bart
July 25, 2014 10:34 am

Or, you could say
.5P * (.5G/.5P)
With half the population, you presumably get half the GDP. That is the implicit relationship in the ratios – the ratios remain constant unless you some how change them, e.g., by introducing new technology. But, you can change them individually without, at least to a first order of approximation, affecting the others.

July 25, 2014 11:55 am

John West:
Please stop making a fool of yourself in public. Your post at July 25, 2014 at 10:21 am attempts to defend your having said

Evidence: CO2 increases roughly correlates with documented warming and man emits CO2.

I had refuted that by showing that each of many things “roughly correlates with documented warming” and by stating that correlation is not evidence of causation.
Your daft reply says in total

richardscourtney says:

Correlation is NOT evidence of causation.

Of course it is. Try having causation without correlation. Correlation is not CONCLUSIVE PROOF of causation or in statistical parlance doesn’t imply causation, but it is evidence albeit of a circumstantial variety. Correlation is evidence that is more than ‘none, nada, zilch’ but less than convincing.

You really, really don’t understand this subject.
Absence of correlation is conclusive evidence that there is not a causal relationship.
Correlation absolutely and certainly is NOT evidence of a causal relationship because – as you admit – it does NOT imply causation.
There is NO EVIDENCE for anthropogenic global warming (AGW); n.b. none, zilch, nada.

In the 1990s Ben Santer claimed to have found some such evidence but it was soon revealed that his finding was an artifact of his having chosen a selected portion of data from near the middle of a time series.
Evading the fact that there is no evidence for AGW is one of the purposes of propaganda tricks such as the Kaya Identity.
Richard