The Tyranny of Tautology

A response to A conversation with Dr. Roger Pielke Jr.

Guest essay by Scott Bennett

Willis Eschenbach described the Kaya Identity as being “trivially true”, his opinion is uncontested by Dr Pielke Jr., whose only retort in its defence was, ‘the math is simple’.

The Kaya is a simple Identity, used as a tautological instrument. To deny this, would be to deny the very heart of its utility. The algebraic cancellation and isolation of its terms is de rigueur for its use.

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Fig. 1. The “Kaya Identity” as depicted in the lecture by Dr Roger Pielke Jr. : Climate Policy for a High Energy Planet4

I really wanted to understand how the Identity was actually applied, both mathematically and as a “tool” of policy discourse. To that end, I spent several days grappling with Kaya, as demonstrated by Dr Pielke Jr. .

When I felt I fully understood its application, I turned to the real world, from whence the model was presumably derived.

It doesn’t take very long to see why the Kaya is being used as an instrument of policy. Examining the real world, makes it abundantly obvious, just what a stake-to-the-heart, reality is, for policy wonks!

The Kaya’s real value is in its use, as a claim to authority. It is a construct, designed to frame the debate and thus isolate and compartmentalise contradiction.

Everywhere I looked, the terms as factors of total emissions where erroneous. But how could this be, I wondered? It seemed reasonable to suppose that the factors as given in the Kaya, according to Dr Pielke Jr., are the ‘only levers available in the tool box’.

I spent some time gathering data and comparing real places. More and more I began to see, that there was a fundamental factor missing. How is it possible that emissions weren’t a direct measure of the energy intensity of GDP and the efficiency of its energy production? Clearly there was a missing factor that was making the proportionality of the Kaya’s terms aberrant. Some hidden input was providing efficiencies that oddly, reduced the size of real world terms, making their ratios, counter intuitive!

But before I reveal what it is, I will tell you why it was left out! It was censored because it exposes the fact that the relationships of the Kaya are not universally applicable (Across the countries of the world). The inclusion of this important term renders the Kaya impotent as a tool of national policy.

Truly, the phrase “one size does not fit all” could never be ascribed more applicably than to the Kaya Identity!

Land area1 is the missing term and including it makes it very difficult to compare economies directly, and at the same time keep a straight face!

Ratios like, population density and emissions per km, would seem to be, essential aspects of any genuine and realistic analysis. Without this quantity it is irrational to compare national emissions and their individual contribution to the global total.

Singapore, with the world’s highest population density, is 11,000 times smaller than Australia. Australia’s land area represents 5% of the Earth’s surface, while its emissions are just 1% of the global total. The entirety of Europe2 fits inside Australia with room to spare.

Singapore’s population is 4 times smaller than Australia, its GDP is 5 times smaller, its emissions are 3 times smaller and its total energy usage is 45 times smaller. Yet, using the ratio of Emissions/GDP3, we find that Singapore produces 1.7 times more CO2 emissions for every dollar of GDP than Australia. This isn’t a real mystery, when you realise that not all GDPs are equal, of course!

It is probably safe to say that the resources in Australia’s vast land area, something Singapore lacks, is the missing factor in this case. The numbers are also strongly at odds with the assumptions spruiked by Kaya devotees, because Singapore produces all its electricity from natural gas while Australia is coal fired!

It is also probably not a surprise, that with such a small land area, Singapore produces 3,500 times the CO2 per km compared to Australia’s tiny contribution of just 5.5 kt/km.

This is the weakness of the Kaya. It can’t be universally applied. As soon as you compare figures across countries you discover the logical fallacies inherent in it.

Australia’s ratio of, emissions to GDP, is just double that of France. If emissions per square kilometre are compared however, France emits 12 times that of Australia.

It is clear why governments around the world aren’t rushing to embrace the logic of the Kaya. They understand, that they would be ill advised to do so. The Kaya is a tool of the global minded, useless for national policy, that reveals with perfect clarity, the hubris of groupthink and the latent stupidity of collectivist ambitions.

=============================================================

Notes:

1. Absolute values are given here, rather than “Real Land Area” which is of less relevance to the geography of climate.

2. Western Eurasia excluding Asia and Russia. The West or Western Europe.

3. This ratio is demonstrated in Dr Pielke’s lecture! The intent here, is to highlight that its “usefulness” also extends to invalidating the relationships between all four terms of the Kaya itself 😉

4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTUE5Ue6Z38

UPDATE: Dr. Roy Spencer has a nice simplification of the terms cancelling issue here in The Kaya Identity Crisis

UPDATE2: Elevated from a comment.

The problem with the Kaya identity is in its application, not in its arithmetic or ability to produce a bit of understanding about the real world. It is being used to help generate policy; long term policy that will be around for decades. It is being used to generate a meme; a way of thinking that will influence decision makers for many years to come.

The Kaya identity begins with the assumption that CO2 emissions MUST be reduced. RPjr stated in his video that it wasn’t even worth talking about the science of climate change anymore. He implied that there was absolutely no point in even discussing climate sensitivity to CO2 emissions and that such discussions are actually harmful. (I was gobsmacked!) The Kaya identity is part of the meme that proclaims “The science is settled!” He argues that it doesn’t matter what the science says about CO2′s impact. The Kaya identity is valid regardless. While that may be true for the identity, it is just stupid to carry that thinking over to the process of making policy. There is nothing more important than the science in making good policy decisions.

The Kaya identity ends with disaster. It is inherently linear in every aspect. The world is inherently non-linear in every aspect. The Kaya identity gives an illusion of knowledge and wisdom to decision makers; convincing them that they will be making good choices. In reality, there is a near zero chance that policies resulting from the use of the Kaya identity will be positive. The outcomes from such policies will range from bad to disastrous.

The Kaya identity gives decision makers the idea that they actually have a control knob. A half turn to the right gives a certain result every time. A half turn to the left gives another result, but just as predictable and dependable as the half turn to the right. This is a complete illusion!

Using the Kaya identity to make policy is like deciding to paddle your raft with two strokes on the right, followed by two strokes on the left, for the entire duration of your trip down the Colorado river. Such a strategy will not get you very far and may actually kill you. They way to paddle your raft down the Colorado river is by constantly assessing your current situation and deciding the best possible paddle strokes for that moment.

The same is true for climate change policy. There is no need to implement solutions today that will solve all climate change problems for the next 100 years. In fact, that would be impossible, and any attempt to do it would almost certainly cause more harm than good. In order to make good decisions, those decisions should be focused on the short term, and the main objective should be the strengthening of the position of future decision makers. That means the current policies should promote adaptability in all areas while enhancing the financial strength of future generations to deal with their issues; issues that they will certainly understand far better than we do today. It means the science is constantly assessed, along with the current state of the population and their needs. It means the UN should be concentrating on potable water for all of humanity today and not on the average global temperature 100 years from now.

The use of the Kaya identity rationalizes the bad decision making process. It allows decision makers to ignore the vital importance of adaptability and weaken the financial strength of future generations. It is the height of hubris and the antithesis of wisdom to use the Kaya identity in the manner it is being used by the United Nations and other bureau-crazies; and apparently promoted by Roger Pielke, Jr; a man I admire and respect, but strongly disagree with on this topic.

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richardscourtney
July 25, 2014 11:59 am

Oops!
Important typo.
I wrote
Absence of correlation is conclusive evidence that there is not a causal relationship.
But, of course, I intended to write
Absence of correlation is conclusive evidence that there is not a direct causal relationship.
Sorry.
Richard

July 25, 2014 1:18 pm

The Kaya Identity suggests a way of testing spurious claims of CO2 emissions reductions, as I show in a post on the ‘diamond law’: http://mygardenpond.wordpress.com/2014/07/25/kaya-identity-part-ii-and-a-diamond-law/

John West
July 25, 2014 1:57 pm

richardscourtney says:
”The answer is that snake-oil-salesmen don’t need real snakes to make snake oil.”
But they do need snakes to either exist, have had previously existed, or at least for people to believe they had previously existed.
AGW-alarmists are selling fear of AGW, and the fear does not require real AGW to make it.
True but it does need some potential based on some trivially true facts, like the “Ban DHMO” faux Zohnerism.
”This is why the alarmists have adopted the Kaya Identity: the adoption by-passes the fact that there is no evidence for AGW and discusses which ‘flavour’ of snake oil should be purchased.”
Completely agree.
”To prove me wrong you only need to state one piece of evidence so you can claim, your Nobel Prizes“
CO2 is a greenhouse gas & man emits CO2.
(I can do this all day.)
On correlation:
If I were on trial the prosecution would present any evidence that my position correlated to the time and place of the crime; this would establish opportunity and be considered circumstantial but nevertheless an essential component of a line of evidence establishing my guilt. The defense however would present any evidence that my position did not correlate to the time and place of the crime and therefore could not have perpetrated the crime. The correlation is very weak evidence for my guilt but de-correlation is very strong evidence for my innocence. Similarly, correlation is merely one weak but essential component of the line of evidence necessary for AGW. Of course the correlation is rapidly falling apart with GW pause and CO2 rising which as more time goes by the de-correlation becomes strong evidence against AGW.
You do realize our positions only vary by one word?
”Evading the fact that there is no”convincing” evidence for AGW is one of the purposes of propaganda tricks such as the Kaya Identity.
You continue on and on with:
”Please stop making a fool of yourself … Your daft reply … You really, really don’t understand this subject.”
Tauntology doesn’t become you my friend.
Who are you and what have you done with Richard?

dp
July 25, 2014 1:58 pm

Joseph Murphy says:
July 25, 2014 at 4:35 am
dp, are you actually argueing that the identity is not used for predictive purposes in policy making? Don’t get me wrong, I agree that it does not demonstrate control knobs.

Not at all. In fact if it has other uses I’d be surprised. Implementing the Kaya Identity is like tennis with the net down. It is very easy to create important looking slides that can be used to misinform people with learning challenges or worry why there are voices behind the curtain. Because it was intended to create policies regarding renewable energy it also requires accepting an unstated requirement: That decarbonizing the global economy is urgently necessary and not an option. I don’t accept that as a given. The Kaya Identity actually demonstrates the futility of suggesting it, in fact.
The modern world is inconsistent with a decarbonized global economy and policies that mandate decarbonization will be effective only at the point of a gun. Nobody is going to accept the Haiti model of human existence without a fight. The sooner we advance the current crop of green politicians out of the political process the better. Perhaps they could be rounded up and placed barefoot at Kaho`olawe, Hawai`i where they can create a natural paradise free of the trappings of modernity. Their success as the first `ohana of Kaho`olawe will be proof that there is much to be appreciated in abject poverty that the rest of us are missing.
I will also add that I don’t find the idea of the Kaya Identity being only a political tool invalidates it. Politicians need tools, too. Politics is a necessary evil in society and they will have and use tools. Give that their product is akin to prestidigitation it should be expected that they will use amazing tools such as the miracle molecule CO2 and mathematics that oversimplify the complexities of the physical world to blunt criticism of their latest crazy agenda. The policies of climate management won’t be driven by science and it should not be left to scientists to fight that battle. The successful skeptic battle will be won via politics. The war will go on until a new better wedge is found to drive between the haves and have-nots.

mjc
July 25, 2014 2:26 pm

It’s a butter knife, not a screwdriver…

richardscourtney
July 25, 2014 3:24 pm

John West:
You continue to make silly statements with your post at July 25, 2014 at 1:57 pm and you say you “can continue to do it all day”.
I believe your claim that you can repeat daft assertions: you have clearly demonstrated that. However, it is sad that you accuse me of “tauntology” when I advise you to stop making a fool of yourself by iterating untrue and illogical nonsense.
I will try another tack.
There is a correlation between people who sell bridges and people who claim to own bridges. indeed, the correlation is so good that every legally purchased bridge was sold by a person who claimed to own the bridge.
You say that correlation is evidence. OK. In that case I say I own Tower Bridge in London so you have evidence you can buy it from me. How much will you pay?
Remember, this is really about your refusal to acknowledge the fact that there is no evidence of any kind for AGW. If you had any actual evidence – however poor – then you would be citing it instead of foolishly asserting the nonsensical falsehood that correlation is evidence of causation.
Richard

July 25, 2014 3:48 pm

richardscourtney says:
July 25, 2014 at 1:50 am
Thank you Mr. Courtney for your (not so) kind words. But I must correct you on a major point; I am a full blooded skeptic. But as a skeptic, I think that scientific argument should be based on both sound science and mathematics without regard as to whether the AGW intelligentsia might abuse an equation.
You seem to be fighting a different war than I, and with different weapons; that’s OK and frankly it’s your choice. But why do you seemingly attempt to alienate some of us that could be your allies? Truly, I’m flabbergasted! . . . correct me if I’m wrong. . . I’m Gob-smacked! . . . My mom was born on the Firth of Clyde, but I never got the Scottish lingo. . . so forgive me if “Gob-smacked” is inappropriate.
Cheers to you Richard.
Dan

John West
July 25, 2014 6:34 pm

richardscourtney
This is getting tiresome. Looking back through it seems we’re using the word “evidence” differently. You seem to be using the word evidence as if it equates to proof and I seem to be using the word evidence as any fact or tidbit of data that aligns with or as the warmists have worn out is consistent with a hypothesis. As sloppy as English is I’d wager both usages are acceptable. I would certainly agree that there’s no proof of AGW and I suspect you’d agree there are a few (not many) facts that are consistant with AGW.
Cheers.

July 25, 2014 7:01 pm

John West says:
Evidence: CO2 increases roughly correlates with documented warming and man emits CO2.
I’m sorry, that’s not evidence. That is an example of coincidental corellation. Claims of scientific evidence is one of my pet peeves. Evidence consists of raw data, or verified empirical observations and facts. Evidence does not consist of peer reviewed papers, or computer climate models, or coincidences like the T/CO2 corellation you noted.
[And the fact is that ∆CO2 is caused by ∆T. However, there is no evidence that ∆T causes ∆CO2. That causation is critical in the AGW claim.]
I don’t want to get further into this particular debate. Just wanted to note what ‘evidence’ is.
Cheers to all.

richardscourtney
July 26, 2014 12:09 am

DanMet’al:
I am replying to your probably disingenuous post at July 25, 2014 at 3:48 pm in reply to my post at July 25, 2014 at 1:50 am.
I provide this link to my post because I stand by every word of it and I ask people to refresh their memories of it.
You reply to it saying

You seem to be fighting a different war than I, and with different weapons

Yes. I am fighting – and for over three decades I have been fighting – a war to defend science against its abuse, misuse and distortion by political forces. My “weapons” are truth, evidence and logic.
The Kaya Identity is an abomination: it pretends to be ‘science’ but is solely a political propaganda tool.
Richard

richardscourtney
July 26, 2014 12:16 am

John West:
I am replying to your post at July 25, 2014 at 6:34 pm.
Correlation is NOT evidence of causality for a reason that you stated. As you said – and I quoted – correlation does not imply causality: if it does not imply causality then it cannot be evidence for causality.
Your refusal to accept this fact is evidence that you are obtuse. And I refer you to the post of dbstealey at July 25, 2014 at 7:01 pm.
This will be my last reply on the matter because I am wasting time discussing your daft refusal to understand that correlation is not evidence of causality.
Richard

JPeden
July 26, 2014 4:42 am

[The Future of a Tautology]
Concerning the Kaya identity, the first thing I would be interested in is energy efficiency, which I don’t exactly see in the equation: you could keep TE the same by an invention such as the Wheel and TE’s efficiency would increase. If GDP happened to go up, that wouldn’t bother Kaya in any way, would it? But hopefully people wouldn’t turn this gain of efficiency into making artistic marks on stone walls, digging holes then filling them up, or growing a lot of tulips. Anyway, we’ve seen by now that people have much better things to do, like worrying about C and getting ready for its Apocalypse by establishing the Totalitarian Utopia stat by any means necessary!
Ahh, but if we were to ever get hold of Fire, that’s where the real trouble starts for C. One thing leads to another as P and GDP increase, and pretty soon we’re spinning out of control, despite more inventions which massively increase the efficiency of by then, “Fossil Fuel Energy”. At some point people wouldn’t even need wooden teeth anymore, but we’d be getting nearly to “the destruction of creation” at a “virtually certain” level. So the only thing we could do is go way back to the time before the invention of these two devils-in-disguise, “before it’s too late!” But we certainly wouldn’t need Kaya to tell us that, either!
But others just don’t care if all of Kaya’s variables increase, as long as they are free to invent things and innovate systems which help people deal with other problems, the unfortunate consequence of which is that they might get rich, assist everyone else in getting richer than anyone in the Stone Age could ever imagine, and also help to create “the obscene inequality between the rich and poor nations,” which we know eventually brings on The Wrath of Gaia! But for some strange reason, these Stone Age Raaaacists! don’t want to go back there.

July 26, 2014 7:14 am

The original Identity as given by Yoichi Kaya, implicitly includes area. Each term is prefaced with the words, global or world. And CO2 emissions are given as the global total. This is what gives the Kaya relevance for global climate!
The IPCC omits the words global or world from its version of the Identity. I compared both version here.
Whether intentional or not, the omission of a qualifying preface for emissions, amounts to the “omitted variable problem”.
If you are dealing with climate, presumably the extent of emission would be of relevance.
A distinct lack of concern for the climate is apparent in comparisons of economies that ignore emissions as a percentage of the globe, either by land area or total contribution!
I have argued that the “factors” themselves are misleading without qualifying the geographical area upon which, the economies operate.
Examining an economy in the context of climate and not including the fact that it represented 8 percent of the globe (Such as in the case of Russia), could be characterised as misleading, at the very least!

July 26, 2014 7:51 am

I disagree with Dr Roy Spencer.
He wrote the following on his blog:

“But the same as true of just about any equation where the physical units must balance on both sides: say, the equation to estimate the miles driven if you know the average speed and the total time driving:
Miles = [hours]x[miles/hour]
You can cancel out the “hour” terms in the above equation, and get the seemingly trivial result that “miles=miles”… but the equation is still useful.”

I commented:
Dr Roy, I can’t believe that you could mix up units with the variables of a formula!
Units are never explicitly handled by a formula. The result must balance dimensionally or it is badly formed.
You have mistakenly illustrated dimensional analysis for a formula.
Miles = [hours]x[miles/hour], all of these are units not magnitudes.
They should be replaced by variables to create a properly formed formula:
Miles (Total miles traveled) = k = ?
hours (Total hours ) = h = 2
speed (Displacement/Elapsed time or Miles/hour) = s = 100
k= s x h
k = 100 x 2
k= 200
Total MILES traveled = 200
Your answer is expected to be in Miles, not miles per hour and so it is, because dimensionally, the hours cancel!
And it is absolutely appropriate to add values to the variables of an identity* because this is in fact the proof!
The IPCC call the Kaya a multiplicative identity and that is what it is!
* I am specifically talking about adding values to an Identity not a formula. The way an Identity is tested (In the strictly mathematical sense.) is to give its variables values and to calculate if the LHS = the RHS.

July 26, 2014 8:25 am

Apparently there is a SCOTT BENNETT Identity doing the rounds.
Since I have never actually written one* and others have proffered “my version”, I would like to have a go!
For the particular rather than the universal case, I would render it thusly:
CO2 Emissions ÷ Percentage of Globe ≡ (Population × (GDP/Population) × (Energy/GDP) × (CO2/Energy)) ÷ Percentage of Globe 😉
*A mathematical IDENTITY not a formula and not an equation!

John West
July 26, 2014 10:28 am

richardscourtney
You can call me daft all you want it doesn’t change the fact that correlation (technically association) is one of the three conditions that must be met to establish causal relationship / association (direction of influence and non-spuriousness being the other two conditions), therefore observations of correlation are evidence (in the broader sense) that the correlation condition has been met for causation and therefore evidence (in the broader sense) for AGW. If temperatures and CO2 hadn’t both risen (correlated) in the late 20th century we wouldn’t have had this AGW mess to begin with because the correlation (association) condition would not have been met.
Regardless, I noticed you didn’t attempt to discredit the evidentiary status of the radiative properties of CO2, which I also noted as evidence for AGW. Laboratory experiments provide ample evidence (even by you and dbstealey’s standards) that CO2 is a GHG, another necessary component of AGW therefore a component of the line of evidence for AGW. Similarly, if CO2 weren’t a GHG we wouldn’t have had this AGW mess to begin with because there would be no mechanism for the increase in CO2 to cause warming therefore the association would likely be the other direction (which we know is true from observational evidence of CO2 dissolution properties) or spurious.
Again, I have to say I think you are taking an untenable position when you assert there is no evidence for AGW. In common usage the word evidence is taken to mean any observation or experimental result which supports a hypothesis in whole or in part. There is observational evidence that CO2 is a GHG and that man emits CO2. That’s 2 components of the line of evidence required to establish a causal relationship between human’s CO2 emissions and warming.
Of course, since you’ve declared me daft (kinda like another D word) and the debate over; I expect
I’ll be ignored. Being a skeptic, I’m used to it.

richardscourtney
July 26, 2014 10:35 am

John West:
re your post at July 26, 2014 at 10:28 am.
No! I did not call you “daft”. You did that by your ludicrous insistence that correlation is evidence of causation although you admit that correlation does not imply causation.
There is no evidence for AGW. Three decades of research have failed to find any.
Richard

John West
July 26, 2014 11:01 am

richardscourtney says:
“insistence that correlation is evidence of causation although you admit that correlation does not imply causation.”
Let’s say I wanted to establish a causal association of A causes B. I’d have to be able to provide convincing evidence that 1) A correlates to B, 2) The direction of correlation is A then B, and 3) that there’s not some 3rd variable C actually causing A & B. So, as you can see, correlation is the first condition that I have to “check off”. So, correlation while certainly not implying causation by itself is certainly required for the causal relationship to be established such that evidence of correlation is part of the evidence for a causal relationship.

richardscourtney
July 26, 2014 11:14 am

John West:
I congratulate you on your successful trolling of this thread which exists to discuss the Kayla Hypothesis and not your lack of logical comprehension.
However, your post at July 26, 2014 at 11:01 am provides so illogical an argument that it may be useful to point out your error for some who may not see your illogicality.
Existence of a necessary condition for something to be true is not evidence that the something is true.
For example, it is necessary for a person to be in deep water for them to be able to swim, but someone being in deep water is not evidence that he can swim and is swimming. Being or not being in deep water is not evidence of that. And you are drowning.
Richard

John West
July 26, 2014 12:22 pm

richardscourtney
I apologize for my part in derailing the tread, but of course you do realize it takes two to tango.
I do appreciate: ”Existence of a necessary condition for something to be true is not evidence that the something is true.”
You might have me there. I’ll have to chew on it a bit, but for now continuing with your example: if I’m not in deep water, I can’t be swimming.

July 26, 2014 11:38 pm

John West says:
Laboratory experiments provide ample evidence (even by you and dbstealey’s standards) that CO2 is a GHG…
No argument from me there. But just because CO2 is a ghg, the real question is: how much effect does it have on global T?
So far, there are no measurements showing the fraction of a degree warming caused by the rise in CO2. Therefore, the effect must be too small to measure.
As Willis Eschenbach notes, CO2 is a minor, 3rd-order forcing. It is swamped by much larger second-order forcings — both of which are in turn swamped by first-order forcings.
Thus, CO2 is a non-player. It just does not matter at all. If it causes global warming, any such warming is minuscule, and should be completely disregarded for all practical purposes.
Are we on the same page?

John West
July 27, 2014 7:24 am

richardscourtney
Congratulations to you, on misdirecting me. The issue is not whether correlation is or is not evidence but rather whether there is any evidence in support of AGW, let’s chalk correlation up to a bad choice for an example on my part. You claim there’s no evidence for AGW, so let me just ask what in your opinion would constitute evidence for AGW?

richardscourtney
July 27, 2014 7:45 am

John West:
I see that you continue your egregious misrepresentations with your post at July 27, 2014 at 7:24 am which says in total

richardscourtney
Congratulations to you, on misdirecting me. The issue is not whether correlation is or is not evidence but rather whether there is any evidence in support of AGW, let’s chalk correlation up to a bad choice for an example on my part. You claim there’s no evidence for AGW, so let me just ask what in your opinion would constitute evidence for AGW?

I did NOT misdirect you!
I refuted your ridiculous claim that a poor correlation is evidence for AGW. You refused to desist from pressing your idiotic contention.
Evidence was defined by dbstealey in his post addressed to you at July 25, 2014 at 7:01 pm which includes

Claims of scientific evidence is one of my pet peeves. Evidence consists of raw data, or verified empirical observations and facts. Evidence does not consist of peer reviewed papers, or computer climate models, or coincidences like the T/CO2 corellation you noted.
[And the fact is that ∆CO2 is caused by ∆T. However, there is no evidence that ∆T causes ∆CO2. That causation is critical in the AGW claim].

My post addressed to you at July 26, 2014 at 12:16 am referred you to that post of dbstealey so I have addressed the issue of evidence for AGW.
Evidence for AGW would be observed climate behaviour which is predicted by the AGW-hypothesis and is an unambiguous effect of AGW. There is no evidence of any kind for AGW.
The Kaya Identity is a political propaganda trick intended to avoid the fact that there is no evidence of any kind for AGW.
Richard

John West
July 27, 2014 7:48 am

dbstealey asks:
”Are we on the same page?”
Yes we’re on the same page on the big picture. There is no convincing case for significant AGW!
What I’m trying to get at is that AGW is not a simple hypothesis like if A then B. It’s more like If A+B+C+D+E+F+G then Z; I agree that there’s no evidence for “A+B+C+D+E+F+G” as a unit but there’s evidence for maybe B and F. So, if you go around saying there’s no evidence for Z and then someone says yea there is: see B and F then it looks as though you’re being misleading because there is some evidence for Z. It may not be logically sound but I think that’s how the average person would see it.
Why do you think the warmists are always trying to paint us as not believing in the GHE? Because that’s the part they have evidence for and most people will buy it hook, line, and sinker that we’re “the D word” without a clue. As in: ‘See we have all this evidence of the GHE and they say ‘There’s no evidence for AGW’ what “the D word” they must be, poor delusional “the D word”.’

John West
July 27, 2014 8:07 am

richardscourtney
“Evidence for AGW would be observed climate behaviour which is predicted by the AGW-hypothesis and is an unambiguous effect of AGW. “
Thank you.
So that would be like a tropical tropospheric hotspot, polar warming amplification, stratospheric cooling concurrent with tropospheric warming, and an increase in downward IR concurrent with a decrease in outgoing IR?