From the Carnegie Institution Climate change and the soil
Climate warming may not drive net losses of soil carbon from tropical forests
Washington, DC — The planet’s soil releases about 60 billion tons of carbon into the atmosphere each year, which is far more than that released by burning fossil fuels. This happens through a process called soil respiration. This enormous release of carbon is balanced by carbon coming into the soil system from falling leaves and other plant matter, as well as by the underground activities of plant roots.
Short-term warming studies have documented that rising temperatures increase the rate of soil respiration. As a result, scientists have worried that global warming would accelerate the decomposition of carbon in the soil, and decrease the amount of carbon stored there. If true, this would release even more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, where it would accelerate global warming.
New work by a team of scientists including Carnegie’s Greg Asner and Christian Giardina of the U.S. Forest Service used an expansive whole-ecosystem study, the first of its kind, on tropical montane wet forests in Hawaii to sort through the many processes that control soil carbon stocks with changing temperature. Their work is published in Nature Climate Change.
The team revealed that higher temperatures increased the amount of leaf litter falling onto the soil, as well as other underground sources of carbon such as roots. Surprisingly, long-term warming had little effect on the overall storage of carbon in the tropical forest soil or the rate at which that carbon is processed into carbon dioxide.
“If these findings hold true in other tropical regions, then warmer temperatures may not necessarily cause tropical soils to release their carbon to the atmosphere at a faster rate,” remarked Asner. “On the other hand, we cannot expect that the soil will soak up more carbon in places where vegetation is stimulated by warmer temperatures. Unlike tropical trees, the soil seems to be on the sidelines in the climate adaptation game.”
This means the observed increase in the rate of soil respiration accompanying rising temperatures is due to carbon dioxide released by the an uptick in the amount of litter falling on the forest floor and an increase in carbon from underground sources. It is not from a decrease in the overall amount of carbon stored in the soil.
Giardina noted “While we found that carbon stored in the mineral soil was insensitive to long-term warming, the loss of unprotected carbon responded strongly to temperature. This tells us that the sensitivity of each source of soil respiration needs to be quantified, and the aggregate response examined, before an understanding of ecosystem carbon balance in a warmer world can be achieved.”
This work was funded by the National Science Foundation, the College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, the USDA Forest Service, and the Carnegie Institution for Science.
Someone upstream was looking for a link to soil, floods, trees etc etc.
Hers a good starting point..
http://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/blogs/trees-and-people/trees-and-flooding/
Reblogged this on Centinel2012 and commented:
More proof that the “Believers” maybe believing in the wrong things; or they are simply corrupted by the grant money for the feds; I’m not sure which is worse.
@non nomen
+1
There is no persuasive evidence or logic that Co2 rises before temperature does.
Quite the reverse in my opinion.
Shouldn’t that be the starting point?
Alarmists ignore it, someone having said that it does many decades ago, although he changed his mind.
Skeptics, seem to forget it and fight the warmists on their multiple battlefields of each day, sort of accepting it as true and engage on the current fronts.
I was a default accepting warmist until I looked at the arguement. Then I thought maybe a bit of temp rise because of co2.
Now I am convinced and believe that CO2 from manmade causes has NO EFFECT on warming of the planet notwithstanding the seemingly huge amount of co2 released from fossil fuels.
neillusion
My citation
“If true, this would release even more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, where it would accelerate global warming.” was referring to the introduction of this article. I think that this introductory phrase is wrong and therefore requires objection -as long as it cannot be proven.
Carbon dioxide and temperature may -may- be interlaced. But, if they are, the leading force is still unknown. Some facts and sources/citations concerning that matter were made available by co2science.org.
CO2 as the driving force of the current, so called GW which is in stasis for over 17 years now(which is a hard-boiled ostrich’s egg in the face of the warm-mongers) does not seem probable to me. Hard evidence actually is hard to obtain… So we have some sort of consensus ***GGG***.
bit chilly says:
July 24, 2014 at 3:33 am
houston really does have a problem http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.ca/2014/07/new-paper-unexpectedly-finds-diverging.html
there goes trenberth,s missing heat,back to space
=====
bit people seem to be ignoring that paper……I’ve tried to draw attention to it too
New paper unexpectedly finds diverging trends in global temperature & radiative imbalance from greenhouse gases
Unsettled science:
A new paper published in Geophysical Research Letters finds that the radiative imbalance from greenhouse gases at the top of the atmosphere has increased over the past 27 years while the rate of global warming has unexpectedly decreased or ‘paused’ over the past 15+ years.
This finding contradicts expectations from AGW theory of increased ‘heat trapping’ from increased greenhouse gases. However, the finding is consistent with radiosonde observations showing that outgoing longwave radiation to space from greenhouse gases has unexpectedly increased rather than decreased over the past 62 years, inconsistent with more heat being “trapped” in the mid-upper troposphere.
This enormous release of carbon is balanced by carbon coming into the soil system from falling leaves and other plant matter, as well as by the underground activities of plant roots.
‘Balanced’ is not the right term, ‘fueled by’ is much more appropriate.
Dr. Paul Mackey says:
July 23, 2014 at 11:49 pm
Why do these people talk a bout “carbon” when they mean “carbon dioxide”? That are radically different things. Are they so scientifically illiterate they cannot accurately describe the compound they are measuring?
Dr. Mackey and others,
There is a very good reason for this: in the atmosphere it is all CO2 (and a little methane). In the oceans it is only 1% CO2, 90% bicarbonates and 9% carbonates. In plants it is mainly cellulose, some starch, sugars and a lot of other molecules which contain carbon.
To make a balance, it is much easier to keep track of the carbon in whatever form it may be converted. In all cases that balance must be kept, as no carbon can be destroyed or created from nothing (except nuclear unstable 14C, but that is a very small amount).
Latitude says:
July 24, 2014 at 7:05 am
I have no direct access to that article, but it would be interesting to compare the imbalance in radiation to cloud cover and water vapor changes over the same periods. Something for Willis?
Understanding the way topsoil really works is necessary to understand the source of the “excess” CO2.
The quality of upland topsoil, in the presence of adequate moisture, is mostly dependent upon the amount of natural gas upwelling from below.The hydrocarbons are ingested by aerobic microbes which use the hydrogen for energy and excrete the oxodized carbon. This explains the release of “60 billion tons of carbon” into the atmosphere.
Soil without the resupply of energy (natural gas) looks like the red clay around Atlanta, Ga. where a layer of granite near the surface blocks most of the upwelling gas.
Increasing numbers of articles like this are evidence that sceptics have had a strong influence on the science and the journals that publish (or don’t publish) papers like this. The journals are cleansing themselves, hopefully scientific institutions will soon follow suit. It is no longer sudden death to your career to publish stuff like this. Anthony and a handful of others should get a Nobel Prize for science for this. Unfortunately Nobel has been co-opted for some time now and has virtually become useless for its original purpose. We will need a new independent, non political prize established.
“Surprisingly, long-term warming had little effect on the overall storage of carbon in the tropical forest soil or the rate at which that carbon is processed into carbon dioxide.”
Funny how they are always “surprised” when despite their best efforts, their findings don’t go along with, or bolster Warmist beliefs. I believe the word they want is “disappointed”.
Another reason for conflating CO2 with C is that carbon, in most peoples’ minds, is coal — a dirty product with soot and other disgusting stuff being thrown out when it’s burned. CO2 is a clean, transparent gas – not scary at all. So if the the propagandists for the warmist crowds can equate the two in the minds of the populace they can better sell the story that CO2 is a pollutant.
The amount we actually KNOW about carbon cycling in soils or in ANY habitat is dwarfed by what we do NOT know. We don’t even know how close to accurate this statement is “soil releases about 60 billion tons of carbon into the atmosphere each year” (it could be triple that estimate for all we know). The best estimates (pulled from their asses) indicate that the human contribution of global carbon production is less than 2-4% of the total annual global carbon production. Think about that … < 2% – 4%. So, the majority of collective climate scientific output of the last 3 decades has, instead of trying to better enumerate basic concepts like just what our role in the carbon cycle actually is, has wasted itself trying to show us all just how important that 2 to 4 percent is in altering global temperatures. It has attempted to perform this rope trick by wringing certainty from trash surface station data that has so many errors, adjustments, and limitations that separating the signal from the noise is a fools errand. But they manage to do so to 3 or 4 decimal places anyway !!
So, now we have a paper that basically says we do not understand soil carbon cycling, and their definition of long term sounds like a year or two rather than the decades or centuries required & long understood. DUH…
I have NEVER understood how climate science gets a free pass from basic sampling requirements employed by the rest of the field observation science. Climate science does not deserve a free pass just because replicated random samples are hard to do. Rigorous science is ALWAYS hard to do. But most of all, scientists need to understand their own and their data's limitations.
@non nomen
+1
BioBob says:
July 24, 2014 at 11:34 pm
BioBob, please, some reading of the more recent literature may be of help…
The 60 GtC in and out is based on δ13C and O2 balances over the seasons. These two combined can give you the difference between in/out fluxes of the oceans and the biosphere. The above study tries to understand one of the aspects of short-term variability caused by temperature in vegetation. But that doesn’t change the longer term trend.
See:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/287/5462/2467.short (full article free after registration)
and more recent:
http://www.bowdoin.edu/~mbattle/papers_posters_and_talks/BenderGBC2005.pdf
The height of the 2-4% human contribution to the carbon cycle is irrelevant. All what is relevant is that it is double the residual change (directly measured) in the atmosphere, which shows that the natural carbon cycle is a net sink for CO2, not a source, and that humans are responsible for almost all of the increase…
Ferdinand Engelbeen:
At July 25, 2014 at 11:51 am you say to BioBob
Clearly, you have made some typographical errors so I write to help by correcting them for you. The following provides the corrections.
The 60 GtC in and out is based on δ13C and O2 balances over the seasons. It is claimed that by use of appropriate assumptions these two can be combined to give you the difference between in/out fluxes of the oceans and the biosphere. However, the effects on the indications of the assumptions are of similar magnitude to the magnitude of the indications.
Richard
Ferdinand Engelbeen:
You know that the conclusion of your post at July 25, 2014 at 11:51 am is a non sequiter.
It does NOT follow that the emission of CO2 from human activities being larger than the rise in atmospheric CO2 indicates that emission of CO2 from human activities is the cause of the recent rise in atmospheric CO2.
Richard
richardscourtney says:
July 25, 2014 at 12:46 pm
Richard,
You know that the carbon mass balance must be kept at every moment, as no carbon can be destroyed or created. The natural sinks were larger than the natural sources for every year in the past 55 years:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/dco2_em2.jpg
Thus the net contribution from all natural sources and sinks together is negative…
The only way that the natural cycle could be the cause of the increase is if the natural cycle increased a three-fold together with the human emissions, for which is not the slightest indication. To the contrary: the throughput of CO2 seems to be rather constant in an increasing amount of CO2 in the atmosphere: the latest estimates of the residence time of CO2 are slightly longer than the earlier estimates.
Ferdinand Engelbeen:
re your post at July 25, 2014 at 1:41 pm.
I cannot be bothered to refute your circular ‘mass balance’ argument yet again.
I do not know if the rise in atmospheric CO2 (measured at Mauna Loa since1958) has a natural cause, or an anthropogenic cause, or some combination of natural and anthropogenic causes.
But I do know that all circular arguments use assumptions to prove themselves. For example, if you assume – as you do – the carbon cycle is so stable that there would have been no change to the CO2 in the air without the anthropogenic emission then a mass balance indicates the rise is anthropogenic.
Richard
Well, well, well, Mr. Englebeen, we meet again. #(:))
Increases in net CO2 lag temperature increases by a quarter cycle.
This assertion is articulated powerfully and thoroughly
(in English after Deutsch intro.)
by Dr. Murry Salby — bwah, ha, ha, ha, haaaa, Englebeen 🙂
(just kidding, you’re a good sport)
here:
Easily understood by non-scientists such as I with a replay or two of a few parts.
(And a salute of acknowledgment for inspiring this post to No Name (a.k.a. Non Nomen) at 11:42pm on 7/23.)
***********************************
Yes, RKS (at 2:43am on 7/24) — “… what increase in temperature…,” indeed. One that happened quite awhile ago…. . Net CO2 will, if Dr. Salby is correct, and I think he is, start to level off and, then, after a quarter cycle, fall if the COOLING of the earth’s land surface temperatures continues (and there is no evidence that this cooling is going to abate any time soon).
Dear Moderator, have you any idea why the Murry Salby video did not turn into a “control window” in my post above at 8:23pm, this evening? It did EVERY time I posted it before… . Hm. Just wondering. I
Now, I’ll post another video to test whether the cause is that my video –> control window privileges have been revoked on WUWT.
Here goes!
#(:))
[Nope. Recommend you try your next video link on the “Test” thread from the Main Page. 8<) .mod]
Here’s to you, Ferdinand Englebeen, the loyal opposition!
ANOTHER gas (“Classical Gas”) and an excellent justification for why humans should continue to emit CO2: Tommy Emmanuel ….
We can agree on that one, can we not?
#(:))
Your smiling opponent,
Janice
Thank you, O Wise Moderator (and forgot about the test page — I’m out of practice around here…)
Thanks for all your work to make WUWT a GREAT PLACE to blog!
Hope all is well with you,
Janice the Intermittent Poster
#(:))
Janice Moore says:
July 25, 2014 at 8:23 pm
Janice, nice to see you again…
But about Dr. Murray Salby: he is wrong on several counts.
First the “migration” of CO2 in ice cores which is simply not measurable small: according to him the real CO2 levels were twice the measured amounts for ice of 10,000 years old or 10 times higher for ice of 100,000 years old. That would mean that the “real” values for each interglacial 100 kyear back in time would be 10 times higher: 10 times for the first, 100 times for the second, 1000 times for the third,… 10 to the 8th power for the 8th interglacial back in time… Which simply is impossible.
Then the increase of CO2 following temperature: that is true for glacials and interglacials, for the MWP-LIA transition and for the short term seasonal and year by year variations. That is NOT true for the increase over the past 160 years: CO2 now is much higher than expected for the LIA to current warming. That should be maximum 8 ppmv, not the 110 ppmv which is measured…
But the increase in the atmosphere does follow human emissions:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/temp_co2_acc_1900_2011.jpg
even in periods of flat (current) or negative (1945-1975) temperature…
richardscourtney says:
July 25, 2014 at 2:30 pm
Richard, there is no circular reasoning in making a mass balance, as the two unknowns involved have no influence whatever on the mass balance: a net sink remains a net sink, whatever the height of the natural cycle. All we need to know is the difference at the end of the full cycle, which was negative over the past 55 years. No matter if in one year the cycle is 60 GtC in and 66 GtC out and the next year it is 150 GtC in and 152 GtC out…
One exception is if the total carbon circulation increased at the same rate as human emissions: then the sinks accommodate to the total influx and not – as is today the case – to mainly the human contribution.
Anyway 800,000 years of ice cores show that the CO2/temperature ratio was quite fixed at 8 ppmv/K and the last 55 years also show that the temperature influence is quite modest at 4-5 ppmv/K. Not the 110 ppmv/K if temperature was the driving force…
Hi, Ferdinand (well, you call me Janice, so…. hope that’s okay!),
You say (at 4:39am today), “… about Dr. Murray Salby: he is wrong on several counts. … .”
Why, I’m so surprised — NOT #(:)).
We’ll just have to agree-to-disagree about Dr. Salby’s excellent work.
Keep on posting!
Janice