
UPDATE: A cartoon from Josh drawn about a year ago has been added. See below.
By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
The United Kingdom Independence Party, the only climate-skeptical party in Britain, has scored a crushing victory in Sunday’s elections to the Duma of the European Union.
Britain’s most true-believing party, the Greens, won one or two new seats, but the second most true-believing party and junior partner in the Children’s Coalition that currently governs at Westminster, the “Liberal” “Democrats” (who are neither), were all but wiped off the map.
The European Duma, like that of Tsar Nicholas II in Russia, has no real power. It cannot even bring forward a Bill, for that vital probouleutic function is the sole right of the unelected Kommissars – the official German name for the tiny, secretive clique of cuisses-de-cuir who wield all real power in the EU behind closed doors.
The Kommissars also – bizarrely – have the power to set aside votes of the elected Duma, which doesn’t even get to vote in the first place without their permission. Democratic it isn’t.
The outgoing Hauptkommissar, Manuel Barroso, is a Maoist – and, like nearly all of the Kommissars, a naïve true-believer in the hard-Left climate-extremist Party Line that is turning Europe into a bankrupt, unconsidered economic backwater.
In the Duma recently (where the Kommissars, though unelected, may sit and speak but not vote), Barroso said there was a “99% consensus” among scientists about the climate. Actually 0.5%, Manuel, baby: read Legates et al., 2013.
Because the Duma is a parliament of eunuchs, UKIP’s couple of dozen members of the European Parliament won’t be able to make very much difference to anything except their bank balances – they all become instant multi-millionaires.
However, after opposition to the EU’s militantly anti-democratic structure and to the mass immigration that has been forced upon Britain as a direct result, UKIP’s third most popular policy with the voters is its opposition to the official EU global-warming story-line.
It was I, as deputy leader of the party in 2009/10, who had the honor of introducing UKIP’s climate policy to the Press. Their reports, as usual, were sneeringly contemptuous. Now the sneers are beginning to falter.
The leadership thought long and hard before adopting the policy. I said we could not lose by adopting a policy that had the twin merits of being true and being otherwise unrepresented in British politics. Private polling confirmed this, so the policy was adopted.
For interest, here – in full – is UKIP’s climate policy as I promulgated it in 2010:
“Global warming: is it just a scam?
“The IPCC’s 1990 First Assessment Report made wildly-exaggerated projections of how global temperature would rise. Yet for the past 15 years [now nigh on 18 years] there has been no statistically-significant “global warming” at all, as a leading IPCC scientist has now admitted. For nine years there has been a rapid cooling trend. None of the IPCC’s computer models predicted that.
“The 1995 Second Assessment Report, in the scientists’ final draft, said five times there was no discernible human influence on climate. Yet one man rewrote the report, replacing all five statements with a single statement saying precisely the opposite. He later said IPCC processes permitted this single-handed rewrite, which has been the official policy ever since.
“The 2001 Third Assessment Report contained a graph contradicting the First Report by falsely abolishing the medieval warm period, which, like the Roman, Minoan, and Holocene optima, and 7500 of the past 11,400 years, and each of the four previous interglacial warm periods, and most of the past 600 million years, was warmer than today. Some 800 scientists from more than 460 institutions in 42 countries over 25 years have written peer-reviewed, learned papers providing evidence that the Middle Ages were warmer than today.
“The 2007 Fourth Assessment Report’s key conclusion that, with 90% confidence, most of the warming since 1950 was manmade is disproven by measurements. A natural decline in global cloud cover from 1983-2001 (Pinker et al., 2005) caused most of that warming.
“The IPCC’s false “90% confidence” estimate was not reached by scientists: it was decided by a show of hands among political representatives who had few scientific qualifications.
“A lead author of the Fourth Assessment Report admits that, “to influence governments”, he knowingly inserted a falsehood to the effect that the Himalayas will be ice-free in 25 years.
“Many other false conclusions of the IPCC were authored not by scientists but by campaigning journalists, members of environmental propaganda groups or IPCC bureaucrats.
“The first table of figures in the IPCC’s 2007 Report did not add up. Bureaucrats had inserted it, overstating tenfold 40 years’ contributions of Greenland and Antarctic ice to sea-level rise.
“The IPCC’s conclusion that CO2 has a major warming effect is false. In the pre-Cambrian era 750 million years ago the Earth was an ice-planet, with glaciers at sea level at the Equator: yet atmospheric CO2 concentration was 300,000 ppmv – 700 times today’s 388 ppmv. If CO2 had the large warming effect the IPCC imagines, the glaciers could not have been there.
“In the Cambrian era 550 million years ago, CO2 concentration was 7000 ppmv (IPCC, 2001): yet that was when the first calcite corals achieved algal symbiosis. In the Jurassic era 175 million years ago, CO2 concentration was 6000 ppmv (IPCC, 2001): yet that was when the first aragonite corals came into existence. While the oceans continue to run over rocks, they must remain pronouncedly alkaline. Ocean “acidification” is a chemical impossibility.
“Many peer-reviewed papers (e.g. Douglass et al., 2004, 2008, 2009; Schwartz, 2007; Monckton, 2008; Lindzen & Choi, 2009) show that the IPCC has exaggerated the warming effect of greenhouse gases up to 7-fold. Without that exaggeration, there is no climate crisis.
“The economics of global warming
“Millions have died of starvation, or are menaced by it, because the world’s governments have unwisely trusted the UN’s climate panel (the IPCC) and the self-serving national scientific institutions that have profiteered by parroting its now-discredited findings.
“The World Bank has reported that three-quarters of the doubling of world food prices that occurred two years ago is directly attributable to the global dash for biofuels.
“Herr Ziegler, the UN’s Right-to-Food Rapporteur, has said that while millions are starving the diversion of farmland from food to biofuels is “a crime against humanity”.
“Lord Stern’s discredited report on climate economics unrealistically adopted a near-zero discount rate for appraisal of “investment” in carbon-dioxide mitigation and doubled the IPCC’s already-exaggerated high-end estimate of the warming to be expected from CO2. Without these grave economic and scientific errors, no case for spending any taxpayers’ money on mitigation of CO2 emissions can be made.
“A carbon-trading scheme that sets a low price for the right to emit a ton of carbon dioxide is merely a tax and does not affect the climate, while a high price drives our jobs and industries overseas to countries which emit more CO2 than us, raising mankind’s global CO2 footprint. The chief profiteers from carbon trading are banks.
“A steelworks at Redcar is closing with the loss of 1700 jobs, because the European carbon-trading scheme has made it uneconomic. Precisely the same steelworks will be re-erected in India. Net effect on the climate: nil. Net effect on British workers’ jobs: catastrophic.
“If we were to shut down the entire global carbon economy altogether, and go back to the Stone Age but without even the right to light a carbon-emitting fire in our caves, it would take 41 years to forestall just 1 C° of “global warming”. The cost is disproportionate.
“Even if the IPCC were right in imagining that a doubling of CO2 concentration will cause as much as 3.26 ± 0.69 C° of “global warming”, adaptation as and if necessary would be orders of magnitude cheaper and more cost-effective than attempting to limit CO2 emissions.
“Global warming gurus humbled
“Dr. Rajendra Pachauri, who chairs IPCC’s climate science panel, is a railroad engineer. The Charity Commission is investigating TERI-Europe, a charity of which Pachauri and his predecessor as IPCC science chairman were trustees. The charity filed false accounts three years running, under-declaring its income by many hundreds of thousands of pounds.
“Dr. “Phil” Jones, director of the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, on which the IPCC has relied for its global temperature record, has stepped down after a whistleblower published emails between him and other leading IPCC scientists revealing manipulation, concealment and intended destruction of scientific results.
“Dr. Jones has admitted that his Unit has lost much of the data on which the IPCC relies. The “Climategate” files show his Unit received millions in increased taxpayer funding so that it could investigate “global warming”.
“Al Gore has made hundreds of millions from “global warming”, and may become the first climate-change billionaire. In 2007 a High Court judge found nine errors in his film serious enough to require 77 pages of corrective guidance to be sent to every school in England.
“On Gore’s notion that sea level would imminently rise by 20 feet (6.1 m), the judge ruled: “The Armageddon scenario that he depicts is not based on any scientific view.” IPCC (2007) projects sea-level rise of 1-2 ft by 2100: Mörner (2004, 2010) projects just 4 ± 4 in.
“Gore said a scientific study had found polar bears dying as they swam to find ice. In fact, Monnett & Gleason (2006) had reported just four bears killed in a bad storm. For 30 years there has been no decline in sea-ice in the Beaufort Sea, where the bears died. There are many times more polar bears today than in 1940.
“Gore said Mount Kilimanjaro’s glacier had lost much of its ice because of “global warming”. In fact, the cause was desiccation of the atmosphere caused by regional cooling (Molg et al., 2003). Mean summit temperature has averaged –7 °C for 30 years and, in that time, summit temperature has never risen above –1.6 °C. The Fürtwängler glacier at the summit began receding in the 1880s, long before mankind could have had any influence over the climate. Half the glacier had gone before Hemingway wrote The Snows of Kilimanjaro in 1936.
“What is to be done
“Royal Commission on global warming science and economics
“UKIP would appoint a Royal Commission on global warming science and economics, under a High Court Judge, with advocates on either side of the case, to examine and cross-examine the science and economics of global warming with all the evidential rigour of a court of law.
“The remit of the Royal Commission would be to decide –
Ø “Whether and to what degree the IPCC has exaggerated climate sensitivity to CO2 or other greenhouse gases;
Ø “Whether and under what conditions, if any, the IPCC’s imagined consequences of the present rate of atmospheric CO2 enrichment will be beneficial or harmful;
Ø “Whether and under what conditions, if any, mitigation of global warming by reducing carbon emissions will be cheaper and more cost-effective than adaptation as, and if, necessary;
Ø “Whether and under what conditions any emissions-trading scheme can make any appreciable difference to the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere, and whether and to what degree, if any, any such difference would affect global surface temperature.
“Other climate-change measures
“Pending the report of the Royal Commission, UKIP would immediately –
Ø “Repeal the Climate Change Act, and close the Climate Change Department;
Ø “Halt all UK contributions to the IPCC and to the UN Framework Convention;
Ø “Halt all UK contributions to any EU climate-change policy, including carbon trading;
Ø “Freeze all grant aid for scientific research into “global warming”.
“In any event, UKIP would immediately –
Ø “Commission enough fossil-fuelled and nuclear power stations to meet demand;
Ø “Cease to subsidize wind-farms, on environmental and economic grounds;
Ø “Cease to subsidize any environmental or “global-warming” pressure-groups;
Ø “Forbid public authorities to make any “global-warming”-related expenditure;
Ø “Relate Met Office funding to the accuracy of its forecasts;
Ø “Ban global warming propaganda, such as Gore’s movie, in schools;
Ø “Divert a proportion of the billions now wasted on the non-problem of global warming towards solving the world’s real environmental problems.
“UKIP has been calling for a rational, balanced approach to the climate debate since 2008, when extensive manipulation of scientific data first became clear. There must be an immediate halt to needless expenditure on the basis of a now-disproven hypothesis.
“Given our unprecedented national debt crisis, not a penny must be wasted, not a single job lost to satisfy vociferous but misguided campaigners, often led by ill-informed media celebrities, profiteering big businesses, insurance interests and banks. The correct policy approach to the non-problem of global warming is to have the courage to do nothing.”
If you know of any political party, anywhere, that has a climate policy more vigorously and healthily skeptical than UKIP, let me know in comments.
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The whining troll “JohnA” persists, amusingly, in attempting to generate more heat than light. When a troll is in perpetual nit-picking mode, there is little point in making further attempts to talk it down out of its tree. Best to let it weep and gnash its Obamacare dentures, and send it the occasional handkerchief, with perhaps a violin thrown in for Christmas.
The fact remains that Britain’s most climate-skeptical party has just won the first national election in 100 years not to have been won by Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber in the shape of the “Conservative” and “Labor” parties.
And it never ceases to amaze me how much some folk, including the troll JohnA hooting and hollering from its monkey-puzzle tree, still resent the fact that when Britain ruled a quarter of the globe she did so largely from the unelected House of Lords.
Notwithstanding that glorious history of spreading the Pax Britannica worldwide from the upper chamber, UKIP’s policy, which I have long and strongly endorsed, is that the House of Lords should now be entirely an elected chamber. The US Senate was not at first elected, but it is now. The Lords should follow suit.
Oh, and another of UKIP’s popular policies is that even the people’s elected representatives should not necessarily have the final say. On any matter on which the people by initiative referendum demand a change in the law, the elected representatives should be bound to give legislative effect to the people’s will. So the trolls who think Britain is not democratic enough – and, a fortiori, that the EU is not democratic at all should lay aside their violins, wring out their handkerchiefs and rejoice that at last there is a party in Britain demanding the very democracy whose lack they have so whiningly deplored. Stop blubbing and cheer up!
Pat
no they didn’t. their share of the vote was down 1%, according
OK it was their number of seats that increased and not their vote. I stand corrected.
I think the Greens get far more positive coverage than UKIP. One of the problem for the Greens is that their message is pretty much the same as the three major parties. UKIP has alternative arguments.
Monckton of Brenchley says:
May 27, 2014 at 1:02 pm
The Senate was always elected, but originally by state legislatures, not directly by voters.
http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Direct_Election_Senators.htm
That changed in 1913, the ominous year that also saw income tax legalized. Oregon pioneered direct election, a cause championed by my great-grandfather when a state senator. IMO this has proved not such a good idea. Two of his other Progressive Republican issues were votes for women & good roads.
Monckton of Brenchley says:
May 27, 2014 at 1:02 pm
Other parts of the Oregon System of reform were initiative, referendum & recall. Sounds as if the UKIP platform is strangely reminiscent of turn of the last century (19th to 20th) US Populism or Progressivism (not the same as its modern “liberal” version),
Anth0ny Watts:
This is your blog and I have never – not ever – attempted to usurp that. I have always supported the moderators and I have no method to moderate anything here.
I was not the cause of the “food fight” : I was objecting to an existing “food fight” and explaining why I was objecting while stating what I would prefer. My objection was my first contribution in that “food fight”.
This link is to my post which is of such concern because it is asserted to be “caustic”, implies I think WUWT is my “personal blog”, and is starting a “food fight”.
Richard
Mr John A, the quick answer to your challenge would be that being governed by unelected domestic officials is arguably better than being governed by foreign counterparts mainly in that they are still part of their societies, localities and countries. All classes may be fundamentally selfish, but proximity and interdependence guarantee that many interests will coincide. Also, you cannot easily dismiss the value of shared language, culture, history and beliefs.
I’m curious as to why you apparently miss the obvious: That Brussels’ rule by ciphers and bureaucrats over individual nations is indistinguishable from crude colonialism? Where you have unseen foreigners dictating your policies, taking charge of your resources and economy, dismantling your traditional customs and freedoms and transferring populations into your country with people whom you have not invited?
Can whatever group that financed the spoof alterntive to UKIP so that they came near the top of the voting form, while UKIP came near the bottom be identified ?
Perhaps they were setup and financed by one of the other parties as a deliberate spoiler ?
“Monckton of Brenchley says: May 26, 2014 at 11:52 pm
I wondered when apologists for the now-doomed EU tyranny-by-clerk would appear here. Messrs. Schaefer and Kateenkorva are too late. The EU is finished because it refused to be democratic.”
Do you attribute the credit due to my questions? Or due to the recommendation to flick through the Lisbon treaty before publishing an article on the topic? Either way, judging from your choice of pet-name, we are now sufficiently acquainted to exchange views about democracy and now-doomed tyrannies:
What does United Kingdom Independence Party propose for democracy?
-The Commonwealth of Nations? Where can I vote for the future head? Or can you do something? Oh wait, that’s not an option. The heir refuses both to regard his subordinates and to abdicate.
-Revival of self-serving, now-doomed tyrannies notorious for fighting ruthless wars all over the world?
-To extend the right of initiative to the EU citizens? Or the right to stop whining and quit the EU? Oh wait, that’s in the Lisbon treaty, which some at both ends of the EP spectra keep on objecting to.
-What other options are there? Care to share?
Is this enough to shed that apologist-label? Or can we agree to move on from politics to a safer topic, like the weather and climate?
Mr/Ms Jaakko Kateenkorva, …can we agree to move on from politics to a safer topic, like the weather and climate?
Potentially one of the of the wittiest lines on this thread. Would have been all but perfect had you taken your own advice and saved yourself the trouble of penning all that complicated stuff above. I say “potentially” because as things are, it reads as a sour and churlish, “I’ve had the last word on this, so everyone move on.”
– – – – – – – – – – –
milodonharlani ,
Hey, thanks for your tentative detection of a possible global warming skepticism signal that is somewhat associated with the current position of the UKIP. But it does look somewhat indirect and faint as signals go. : )
So I still fail to see is the hard explicit signal in the current UKIP showing their global warming skepticism.
John
Mr Whitman, if I may be of help. After an extensive stint of research consisting of typing “UKIP on global warming” into Google’s search bar and being inundated with about 898,000 results in what felt like an eternity (0.47 seconds), I considered all the sources carefully and somehow happened to settle on the very first entry, a Guardian article sniffling and whining about the multitude of aggressive “anti-environmental” policies by UKIP. It indicates a strong signal; too strong for Guardian’s “world’s leading journalists on climate, energy and wildlife”:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2013/mar/04/ukip-energy-climate-policies
No, no, no need to offer payment for my research services; direct some change into Anthony’s tip jar instead.
“Avi ben Barzel says: May 27, 2014 at 2:36 pm”
Thanks. The style was matched to how we’ve all been addressed right from the start, but ukipian is the last resort.
The strongest skeptic asset is in my opinion the opposite: respect of human rights. http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/. The environment is not in it – and for good reasons.
Mr/Mrs Kateenkorva, I’m sorry, but I don’t understand what you mean. No doubt the fault is mine.
The strongest skeptic asset is in my opinion the opposite: respect of human rights. http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/. The environment is not in it – and for good reasons.
Ooh, ooh, wait, I thinks I gots it. Environment is not in the charter of human rights because the environment is not human? Mum used to say I wasn’t the brightest in the litter, but she was wrong.
– – – – – – – – –
Avi ben Barzel,
Sorry, I did not yet get around to a response to your comment to me on May 27, 2014 at 10:43 am. So, instead I’ll respond to your above quoted comment to me (May 27, 2014 at 3:18 pm).
I like your style very much. It is a pleasure to read. Thanks.
Please reconsider alternate approaches to your Google research assessment resulting in The Guardian article on the UKIP. As an alternative approach to The Guardian, it should be more cognitively valid to consult the Oracle at Delphi about the UKIP. N’est ce pas?
John
I like your style too, Mr Whitman; the word pithy comes to mind. One must take care to properly pronounce the fricative, of course…
That’ll attract some sympathy in the press. And it’ll appeal to them as a nice scandal too.
“remote and incomprehensible”! love it.
27 May: Deutsche Welle: EU leaders to ‘digest’ voter rebuff in Brussels
(AFP, Reuters)
France’s President Francois Hollande has called for a reduced EU role…
EU leaders were due to hold a preliminary discussion about who should get the job of next European Commission president at their informal dinner in the Belgian capital…
***French President Francois Hollande whose governing Socialists were relegated to third place by France’s far-right National Front and the main opposition UMP, went on television on Monday to accuse Brussels of being “remote and incomprehensible” for many EU citizens.
“This cannot continue. Europe has to be simple, clear, to be effective where it is needed and to withdraw from where it is not necessary,” Hollande said…
http://www.dw.de/eu-leaders-to-digest-voter-rebuff-in-brussels/a-17664622
whilst the MSM has played down Ukip’s CAGW scepticism – all the Stakeholders know the facts:
27 May: Business Green: Jessica Shankleman: Will the rise of anti-EU parties derail Europe’s environmental ambitions?
Brussels insiders remain optimistic the EU can still pass ambitious 2030 carbon targets, despite a rising tide of scepticism.
In Brussels, Lib Dems, including Sir Graham Watson, Chris Davies and Rebecca Taylor, who have all been vocal in their backing for the green agenda for the past five years, are packing their bags, while UKIP is preparing to send 24 politicians to the European Parliament – 11 more than they won in the last election.
The loss of all but one Lib Dem MEP will be felt acutely in the corridors of Strasbourg and in the Parliament’s environmentally-focused committee rooms. Davies in particular has led calls for strong policies to support carbon capture and storage technology and reductions in vehicle emissions…
Could the success of UKIP, with its climate sceptic and anti-renewable energy position, derail efforts to agree ambitious new green targets for 2030? And will Marine le Pen’s National Front lead a charge against a 40 per cent emissions reduction target?…
Previous voting records are also a good indicator of what is to come. Analysis by Thomson Reuters Point Carbon reveals that Socialists, Liberals and Greens provided the key support for the European Commission’s 2030 energy and climate package report in February. The pro-European centre-right European People’s Party (EPP) was split over the issue and those on the right were broadly opposed…
The split at the heart of the EPP on environmental issues is likely to deepen further because Poland, which has traditionally opposed more ambitious climate policies, has become the second biggest delegation in the group after Germany with 23 MEPs…
The first major test for the new Parliament will come in September, when MEPs on the new environment committee meet to discuss long term changes to the Emissions Trading System (ETS), in a bid to boost the price of carbon in the fragile market and build on the temporary fix that this year saw a reduction in the number of allowances being auctioned.
Sanjeev Kumar, founder of the NGO Change Partnership, said he was optimistic that proposals to create a new ETS Market Stability Reserve (MSR) in order to tackle oversupply in the market would pass. “At first glance, there is a stronger majority for than against measures to address climate change, clean energy and inclusive growth,” he said.
***However, Hæge Fjellhei, senior policy analyst at Thomson Reuters Point Carbon, was less certain about the outlook for environmental policies, predicting the composition of the new Parliament will have implications for the development of European policy for the rest of this decade. “It’s really difficult to see how the debate is going to go forward now in the new environment committee,” she told BusinessGreen. “About half of the parliamentarians are new so I’m assuming it’s going to take some time for them to get their heads around the issue. It’s complex and not straightforward to just jump into. The whole election process has of course postponed the debate on this issue.”…
Beyond the Parliament, the EU Commission is also due for a reshuffle in November, which could bring an end to Connie Hedegaard’s time at the Climate Action department, sparking fears that any change could undermine progress towards a 2015 deal.
There remains a chance that Hedegaard will remain in the post to allow her to continue in the job through to 2015, but insiders admit it is still too early to tell whether or not there will be a change, particularly as member states have yet to elect the new Commission president…
http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/analysis/2346788/will-the-rise-of-anti-eu-parties-derail-europe-s-environmental-ambitions
LINKS FROM ABOVE: 27 May: Business Green: Natalie Bennett (Green Party leader) calls on main parties to face down UKIP climate scepticism.
I’m pleasantly surprised that the percentage of thinking people in the UK that is not sclerotically bound to be faithful to their political parties no matter what idiocies are perpetrated on the citizenry is large enough to form some belated opposition to the mindless recklessness that is running the show. There can’t be many thinking individualists remaining that believe Europe has the slightest chance in a thousand years of ever recovering from the devastation wrought by the Lilliputians of the established parties and the frivolous sunshine states among them. Breaking EU up and turning loose the deadweight states may allow Germany to survive and if the new UK party can mature and grow, perhaps the UK. Maybe the UK will see some synergy in linking and free trading with its former english-speaking Commonwealth and import some non European ideas (they hate Prime Minister Harper for telling them how they had to properly manage their economies in the future so I’m not hopeful on this score).
Until recently, I thought how naive Europeans were to think that they could found a United States of Europe to be an economic competitor to the United States of America. It seemed touching how far away they were from understanding how a real economy works, or indeed what work even means. Well, I’ve had to come down quite a bit on this matter. Oh, I wasn’t wrong about Europe – its demise is even written into its constitution. However, how wrong I was about America. I thought it was still made of stern stuff, even though hapless governments get put into office now and again. Frighteningly, it appears to have caught the European virus for which no known cure is on the horizon. Obama was ensuring it’s citizens that he was eyeing Spain!!!! as a model for his new economy when even a casual reader of world news could see that Spain’s economy had already collapsed as designed for.
Can a Republican government fix things in the US of A? It will be inheriting a system and an ivy league apparatchik bureaucracy that is unmanageable if the hope is to get the US economy functioning again with it. A lot of necessary pain ahead. And Europeans who traditionally have mocked and looked down on what was the world’s economic engine, should be praying for a quick recovery of the former life-giving giant that allowed them to play and pretend.
UKIP is certainly being mocked and looked down upon by the governors of Europe – maybe there is some hope after all.
Richardscourtney said:
“Please allow me to help because it is clear you have not been reading the thread and you have forgotten your own words posted in this thread.”
Didn’t take you long to start with that rubbish did it? Grow up and get over yourself.
“His reply to your statement asserted the truisms that it is self-evident that each political party – including UKIP – needs sufficient popularity to win elections. As dbstealey says, UKIP obtained sufficient popularity to win most UK seats in the recent EU Parliamentary election, and that is how democracy works.”
Yeah I know. We all do. No one was talking about those other parties. The subject was the UKIP, and pointing out the failures of other parties does not take away from what I said, especially in a thread about the UKIP. Does a murderer in court have a point if he points at a bunch of other murderers and says, “yeah but look at them, they did it too?”
“You claim that “popularity” is the only care of UKIP. Perhaps you are right, but that is NOT what UKIP said during the election campaign. And if you are right then UKIP’s failure to fulfil what they said in the campaign will lose them popularity so they will not get re-elected.
You do not like UKIP. I don’t either.
And you are opposing UKIP here. I think that is a mistake: there is a time and place for everything and the place for pushing any brand of politics is not WUWT (although US ultra-right constantly try).”
Well, I didn’t make the thread about what it’s about, and it wasn’t my decision to allow it on this site. Given that it is here, it is more than reasonable for me to comment on the UKIP.
Richardscourtney:
Seriously, why did you feel the need to start out by insulting me with that post? Is it really that hard to communicate without such insults and snide remarks? Would you really run stuff like that on me if we were having a conversation face to face?
I really don’t understand what is going through your head when you make these decisions.
“Ohhh.. there is that guy again, and he supports the wrong team… I’ll show him with a well crafted insult!!”
If it isn’t something like that, I’d love to know, cause about now it makes as much sense as why soccer hooligans do their thing.
Philip, Richard usually debates in this manner, going for the man instead of the ball. Don’t take it too hard, it’s his method he uses with most people he disagrees with. If it annoys you, just don’t respond. I also believe that WUWT should not be used for politicking, however it is difficult to avoid, usually due to the idea that hard sceptism of the majority view of climate change is strongly linked to right wing politics, hence this is a site where people like Monckton and Tea bag party followers will tend to slide in promotions for their own political viewpoints. Having said that, there are people on the Left who also have concerns, but due to their political beliefs they would usually get a hard time from the majority of posters on this site due to the slant of the ideas, so would likely avoid the area. Some of the ideas on politics are plainly bonkers and ill informed, but it’s useful to see how strong a correlation can be between daft political beliefs and views on climate science. UKIP do not like renewable energy sources, but I suspect that is due to financial concerns rather than an objection based on scientific understanding, though I would expect UKIP to have an opposing stance to the mainstream due to their hard right political beliefs.
Philip Schaeffer:
Your posts at May 27, 2014 at 8:45 pm and at May 27, 2014 at 9:04 pm are a good attempt at ‘stirring the pot’ but you are mistaken if you think I am willing to assist your “food fight”.
Your earlier post ignored the contents of previous posts including posts from you and I pointed that out. Those facts are not an “insult” whatever you may pretend. (n.b. This is not a “caustic” comment. It is a factual refutation of a falsehood about me.)
I now only write to refute your assertion which is disguised as a question, and is
You would “understand what is going through [my] head” if you read what I wrote and you quoted.
Supporting the “wrong team” has nothing to do with it. On the contrary, I was objecting to your attempts to stifle information from and about a “wrong team”. As I wrote and you quoted me having written
Please stop posting falsehoods especially your false accusations of “insults”, and when writing posts then remember other words – including your own – in the thread. (n.b. This is not an attempt at Moderation: it is a response to trolling directed at me).
Richard
Friends:
I ask people to read my reply at May 27, 2014 at 11:51 pm to Philip Schaeffer if they are tempted to be fooled by the post from Gareth Phillips at May 27, 2014 at 11:43 pm.
This link jumps to my reply to Philip Schaeffer.
Richard
Ps. It’s interesting that Monckton issues multiple personal insults at JohnA, slides in a criticism of Barack Obama and strangely suggests he supports a peoples fight for democracy, while glossing over the fact he supports the idea that a person can be born to rule over others and should not have to face a form of election or democratic process. Then compounds the issue by labelling JohnA a troll because he has his own opinions on an issue.
Maybe we could agree a few rules on the nature of the process of trolling ?
1) A troll is not just someone who just disagrees with you.
2) A reasoned argument which avoids insulting individuals or groups is not trolling.
3) Insulting someone then calling them s troll is, paradoxically , trolling.
4) Pointing out the paradox of someone using approach (3) is also not trolling.
5) Going for the man instead of the ball is trolling.
6) issuing personal insults is trolling.
There may be disagreements, fair enough. Sometimes it is difficult to put over a point which an individual feels passionate about without raising the heat of a debate, so trolling can sometimes be a subjective idea existing in a grey area. But if we believe we are annoying someone, maybe we should back off and stop it, unless we think it’s all a point scoring game instead of a reasoned debate.