Our WUWT thread on Antarctic Sea Ice Losses has spurred quite an interesting discussion. Dr. Robert G. Brown of the Physics Department at Duke University responds to a comment on ice albedo with a summary of water vapor action, the greenhouse effect, and the chaotic nature of the atmosphere. He ends with his view of why he’s not a betting man.
Well worth a read.
phlogiston: I do realise that over the Antarctic land mass albedo from surface snow is anomalously higher than that from cloud, since the snow presents such a pure white surface. However this is probably not the case for sea ice whose surface is more irregular and cracked with patches of dark sea in between.
The trouble is that water vapor is literally a two-edged sword. As vapor, it is the strongest greenhouse gas in the atmosphere by (IIRC) around an order of magnitude, so increasing water vapor can and does measurably increase the GHE — a lot, when considering dry air versus saturated air. In arid deserts, temperatures skyrocket during the day and plummet at night because of the absence of a water vapor driven GHE — CO_2 alone isn’t nearly enough to keep upward facing surfaces from rapidly losing their heat due to radiation. In very humid tropical climates, the nights are consistently warm because of the GHE.
However, water vapor is also the mediating agent for two major cooling mechanisms. One is the bulk transport of latent heat — sunlight and LWIR hit the sea surface and cause rapid evaporation of surface molecules of water. Wind blows over the ocean surface, stripping off water molecules as it goes. This evaporated water has a huge heat content relative to liquid water — the latent heat of vaporization. As the warm water vapor is carried aloft by convection, it carries the heat along with it. It also cools as it rides the adiabatic lapse rate upward, and further cools by radiating its heat content away (some of which returns to the Earth as GHE back radiation). Eventually the partial pressure of water vapor in the moist air becomes saturated relative to the temperature and the dew point is reached, making it comparatively probable that the water vapor will recondense into water. In order to do so, though, several things have to be “just right”. The water vapor has to be able to lose the latent heat of vaporization that it picked up at the water surface when it evaporated. The future water droplets have to be able to nucleate — which is a lot more likely to occur when there are ionic aerosols in the atmosphere as water (a polar molecule) is attracted to bare charge of either sign.
Once a water droplet is nucleated and grows past a critical size (that depends weakly on humidity and temperature) its surface becomes large enough that growth due to increased surface deposition outweighs loss due to surface evaporation, and the droplet stabilizes as a single droplet of condensation in a cloud or continues to grow to fall as rain. Either way the water, now high in the troposphere and hence through most of the optically opaque greenhouse layer, releases heat that is “short circuited” through the greenhouse mechanism and lost to space via radiation.
The cloud, as you note, has a very high albedo. High albedo means that it strongly reflects short-wave (e.g. visible) radiation without ever absorbing it and being heated by it. During the day, clouds outside of the polar regions act as a cooling agent, reflecting sunlight before it has a chance to reach the ground and lower troposphere to warm either one. During the day and the night, however, the cloud also acts as a powerful greenhouse blanket, directly reflecting LWIR as well as visible back down towards the Earth’s surface. In the tropics, daytime reflection wins by a landslide — reducing the incident sunlight by a huge fraction for a large fraction of the day beats the comparatively small modulation of surface radiative losses both day and night. In the temperate zone (again, IIRC) albedo still wins, but by a smaller and smaller margin as one creeps north (and in ways that are increasingly dependent on seasonal weather patterns — in the winter clouds can easily be net warming where in the summer they can be net cooling).
However — and this is key and the reason I’m replying to you — in the polar regions clouds are generally net warming, at least most of the year. You’ve already indicated some of the reasons — the polar regions are already often or permanently ice covered, and the gain in daytime albedo from clouds vs ice is not so great. The real problem, however, is that nighttime warming from the enhanced GHE from clouds scales with the fraction of the day that it is nighttime, and of course inside the arctic circles that can be as long as 100% of it. High albedo doesn’t cool when there is no incident sunlight to reflect, and even in the arctic summer, the sun comes in at a substantial angle so that direct solar warming is weak (so that clouds can reflect only a proportionally smaller amount of heat). A lot of polar temperature is determined by heat transport, not direct heating, explaining the substantial difference in mean temperatures of the North and South poles. In the north, there is substantial heat transport and heat exchange via the ocean; in central Antarctica there is only the atmosphere to carry heat in from the warmer latitudes and it just can’t do the job half as well.
That’s why I hesitated to assign a sign to the net feedback from any sort of local modulation of e.g. ocean-air humidity or sea ice coverage. The processes are COMPLEX and can have either sign, and they are NON-LOCAL as adding humidity in one place can increase albedo someplace else thousands of miles away is it finally concentrates enough to form clouds. A large part of the rain that falls over North Carolina comes up from the Gulf of Mexico maybe 1000 miles away. Some of it comes all the way over from the Pacific, where some of that might have originated in e.g. the growing El Nino. Heat from the tropical Pacific can be transported all the way to NC before it finally releases its heat and falls as rain, before it finally creates clouds that cause NC to cool after helping to greenhouse warm much of the surface area it crossed in between.
This is the kind of thing that the models are supposedly trying to model, but they perforce replace all of the small-length scale detail of this description with presumptive averages over cells 100-300 km square (where weather phenomena such as thunderstorms are order of 1 to 10 km square, where the details of front structure and development are much finer than this). They are excruciatingly tuned to aerosol levels and albedo — they have to be to stabilize anywhere near the correct/observed temperatures and preserve the central tenet that CO_2 causes X amount of baseline warming that is on average augmented by additional water vapor.
This last assumption is finally dying a quiet and well deserved death. AFAIK, it is due to Hansen, who in his original papers predicting disaster assumed universally positive water vapor feedback (and for no particularly scientifically motivated reason that I can see, hypothesized truly absurd levels of water vapor feedback that doubled or tripled the CO_2-only warming of his then very simple models). Naturally, some of the GCMs out there have built into them parametric assumptions that preserve this much “climate sensitivity” — total ACO_2 warming plus feedback, usually at the expense of an overdriven response to e.g. volcanic aerosols necessary to explain periods of global cooling and to keep the model from having a runaway exponential instability (because one has to have a mechanism that keeps positive feedback water vapor from causing increase of water vapor without bound just from FLUCTUATIONS in water vapor content or global temperature — the climate cannot be a biased random walk where every time the temperature goes up a bit, average water vapor increases and hence resets the Earth’s average temperature a bit higher unless a competing process can completely erase the gain when the temperature fluctuates down a bit).
At the moment, estimates of climate sensitivity are struggling to retain any net positive feedback from water vapor in the face of data that already solidly excludes the kind of absurd feedback levels Hansen originally hypothesized. Even the question of net negative feedback from water vapor, long considered to be anathema in climate science (except for a few mavericks who managed to publish papers suggesting that clouds could easily lead to net negative feedback through the dual mechanism of latent heat transport and modulation of albedo) is no longer completely off of the table. I don’t know that people will start to take it too seriously unless/until the Earth actually cools (several tenths of a degree, sustained, not just vary up or down or weakly downward trend) but obviously if this happened it would truly be the only likely catastrophe associated with global warming to all of those that have invested their professional careers, hundreds of billions of dollars of global wealth, and their political and/or scientific reputation on shaky claims in poor agreement (so far) with observational data.
IF there is a super-ENSO, perhaps it will help their arguments survive a bit longer, or perhaps it will truly kick up the temperature to where the models become believable again. Perhaps not. ENSO is not the only factor in climate evolution, and while it has been dominant for the last half century or so in mediating positive jumps as documented by Bob Tisdale, its ability to do so could easily be predicated by the phases and states of the other decadal oscillations, the state of the Sun, the state of baseline vulcanism, the immediate past climate history, and the price of tea in China. A chaotic nonlinear system can be quasiperiodic and apparently causal for a while and then for no computable reason change to an entirely different mode of behavior where a significant quasiparticle/process becomes insignificant and some other process becomes the critical driver. We could still watch as the developing ENSO discharges all that heat in such a way that it never manages to raise global average temperatures by much because of some confounding wave that causes the heat to be efficiently transported up and quickly lost rather than persisting to spread out over the globe at high altitude, or by a mere modulation of the winds that causes albedo over the warm(ing) patch to be higher than expected so that the delivery of solar energy to the ocean is effectively interrupted. It’s not like we can properly predict ENSO (although we can do pretty well with forward projective hindsight once an ENSO process has started).
No matter what, I expect the next year to be highly informative. If we have a super El Nino that heats the planet by 0.3C very rapidly, that certainly makes GCMs more, not less, plausible on average as it kicks global average temperatures at least in the right direction for them not to be as egregiously wrong as they currently appear to be. If it only kicks the temperature up by 0 to 0.1 C, and that only transiently so that temperature in a year are again pretty much flat relative to 1998-2000, it is very bad news for the models. If it fizzles altogether — short-circuited, perhaps, by the downhill side of solar cycle 24 that maybe be beginning and which will proceed with poorly predictable speed and which may or may not have a competitive local effect on the climate and produces no gain at all and cycles immediately into a cooling La Nina that augments any solar cycle cooling to actually drop global average temperatures, that too will be very informative.
Personally, I won’t even place a bet. I don’t think the climate is computable, which means that I think one is basically betting on the output of a (possibly biased) random number generator. I’d rather play Mumbledy-peg for money.
rgbatduke: the pejorative remarks that I’m a Slayer are wrong. I work independently. I trained as a process engineer and with others measured coupled convection and radiation using known power inputs thereby to measure real convection by mass flows and real net IR energy loss in large plant so the air emitter is effectively the same as the open atmosphere.
For hot mill steel, you have to get to c. 100 deg c before radiative heat loss exceeds convective heat loss. For aluminium with alumina scale as the surface, it’s about 300 deg C. You can confirm this in the Tables in a good text like McAdams ‘Heat transfer’. I have run along hot mill strip with a contact Land pyrometer. To pioneer on-line temperature measurement of aluminium, we developed the first two-colour pyrometer.
So, when I saw the Trenberth cartoon, not only did I know it was wrong from theory, I also knew it from experiment, lots of them written up in handbooks to design process plant. One of my acquaintances, Hoyt C Hottell of MIT was the pioneer in GHG physics. Another, Bo Leckner improved Hottell’s work and gave me the self-absorption idea. It was 40 years ago; this standard work in the process industries has been ignored by Climate Alchemy.
The two-stream approximation does work so long as you appreciate that MODTRAN for example calculates the Irradiance at a plane, not net IR flux; that is the difference of UP and DOWN Irradiances. ‘Back radiation’, the DOWN flux, is an Irradiance. OLR has to be paired with the 2.7 deg K Cosmic Microwave Background as the opposite Irradiance; negligible. So, there is not much wrong except at the surface and ToA. At the surface, and this is built into MODTRAN originating from Manabe, is 160 W/m^2 mean total heat transfer surface to atmosphere. MODTRAN calculates the net IR part consistent with real surface temperatures, and the real GHE.
The claim that a mean 3x real energy travels from the surface to the atmosphere is a perpetual Motion Machine of the 2nd Kind, the lower atmosphere using its own heat to cause itself to expand. All professional engineers know this and most older physicists. it is Atmospheric Science with a crossover to modern Physics’ teaching which fails to make the distinction between irradiance and net flux. This comes from Sagan, apparently, who was misled about Venusian cloud properties.
So, not to be deliberately objectionable, it seems I represent the Old Guard with lots of practical knowledge of getting the calculations right. Incidentally, we used Carslaw and Jaeger’s collected analytical solutions to heat transfer problems before computers came available. My process plant designs work. The IPCC Climate Models with their totally wrong application of Kirchhoff’s Law of Radiation to a semi-transparent emitter at ToA and fake hind casting, don’t. I once argued with Met. Office modellers about this – they justify it with a silly construct.
Note for ‘Anthony’; someone is wrong and it could be me, but I doubt it because many others will back me up. We call it ‘consensus’……..:o)
@rgb May 22, 2014 at 5:14 am
Is the “downward directed radiative flux” which “carries energy” from “the insulation in my attic” directly measurable “with cheap instrumentation”?
An Irradiance is measured by blocking off the Irradiance in the other direction from affecting the sensor. Therefore, it is an energy flow to the sensor. When it sums vectorially with the opposite Irradiance, only the difference transfers energy.
‘Back radiation’ is measured by blocking the irradiance of the Surface so is otherwise imaginary (for a normal temperature gradient).
Sorry, but this is real physics you can do yourself.
An Irradiance is measured by blocking off the Irradiance in the other direction from affecting the sensor. Therefore, it is an energy flow to the sensor. When it sums vectorially with the opposite Irradiance, no detector, only the difference transfers energy.
‘Back radiation’ is measured by blocking the irradiance of the Surface so it does not interact with the detector, so is operational, defined by the observational method.
Sorry, but this is real physics you can do yourself. for a normal temperature gradient; ‘back radiation’ cannot transfer any energy to the surface. It has never been proved to do so by calorimetry, the only real proof.
RGB,
A couple of years ago over at Lucia’s, there was a discussion of the paper:
There was a discussion of Absolute Temperatures and Phase Transitions of H2O, Energy Leaks, and Hindcasts. It was an interesting post:
http://rankexploits.com/musings/2012/tuning-climate-models-a-group-discusses-how-its-done/
joeldshore says:
May 21, 2014 at 8:13 pm
Perhaps the majority of scientists do want to try to figure out how the world works, but the leaders of the “climate science” (misnomer) cabal plainly don’t. Why go into business when feeding at the public trough is so easy & fun? My experience with my former teachers Ehrlich & Holdren & with the astronomical Dr. Sagan & NCAR’s Schneider during the Nuclear Winter Big Lie make even your general statement dubious, however. During my own academic career I did meet some colleagues who weren’t in it for the bucks, I’ll grant.
The behavior of CACA advocates shows clearly that my characterization is accurate, not paranoid.
I know that RGB mentioned runaway first, but I was replying to Nick’s hypothetical, which is obviously false on its face. I don’t know whether he thinks it possible on earth or not.
If GCMs even remotely accurately model earth’s climate system, then why do they fail so ludicrously? Using them to formulate policy is akin to burning witches to improve the health of children & livestock.
Somebody
I appreciate your citing me but unfortunately you seemed to have missed the point I was trying to make. You ‘cherry-picked’ some sentences and agreed with them and then completely dismissed everything I was aiming at. Either you are following your own agenda or you don’t realise that classical physics and quantum physics work with entirely different equations. The outcomes are the same but the results are derived differently.
For example:
You design an air conditioner based on all the correct engineering principles then you hand the design to some Physics graduate who decides that the black fins will follow SB for emission of heat. So the design is changed to accommodate this. The F_ing thing doesn’t work. That is because the radiation theory was already included in the original design but by using other methods.
Adding to my above comment
I have worked with idiot graduates in the past in industry. They eventually get fired from the company and then become university lecturers and possibly professors. What a crazy world.
rgb@duke If you’ve written a beginners guide to climate physics, I’d buy it.
RGB: ‘Even your comments on downward directed radiation — measurable, as I noted, with cheap instrumentation or measurable in detail with more expensive instrumentation — somehow completely neglects the fact that this downward directed radiative flux carries energy. Contemplate the radiative balance of the surface underneath with and without this flux. Hmm.’
This ‘energy flow’ is measured by placing a barrier behind the detector so the ‘energy flow’ in the opposite direction from the Earth’s surface does not interact with ‘back radiation’. Yes, there is an ‘energy flow’, but it is to the detector, not the Earth’s surface; simple experimental physics.
Think about it.
Bloke down the pub:
You want it easy. You actually have to get ‘out there’ and search for information. There is no ‘Gospel according to……’. You can’t just slavishly follow someones opinion. You need to form your own. Get off your lazy arse and do some work. Who knows, you may end up posting on this site.
But then again , I may have misunderstood your request. You may just be sycophantic.
“””””…..tty says:
May 22, 2014 at 3:13 am
george e smith
“Then there is the snow / ice albedo effect. Despite Kevin Trenberth’s assertion, TSI is about 1366 W/m^2, NOT 342. And with that blowtorch, even high incidence angle attenuated the snow surface readily melts, no matter the air temperature. Then refreezing occurs, and you get a glassy labyrinthine structure that is quite efficient at radiation trapping by total internal reflection.”
That may be true in the US, which is after all almost all closer to the Equator than the pole. It is emphatically not true at higher latitudes, where the snow will stay loose for weeks or months. …..”””””
I never said anything about whether it was loose or not. Since it starts off as individual ice crystals clumped together, it is of course quite loose. That aids in thermally insulating each crystal from its neighbors.
Light can always refract into an optically transparent medium, but it can’t always then get out again. Particularly in a complex geometry like a snow “flake”, TIR trapping stores EM energy in there.
No it’s not going to start a waterfall; it just needs to destroy the crystalline molecular order, over a few molecules, to increase the size of the facets.
Well the snow aging data, is not mine; it’s from the US Air Force. I should tell them they got their measurements wrong.
It must be spooky looking down into a higher latitude glacial crevasse, and seeing total blackness, instead of a blue green glow like in the tropical glaciers.
milodonharlani says:
May 22, 2014 at 7:07 am
In your comment regarding being “in it for the bucks” you mirror my comment re “conflict of interest” under http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/05/21/a-do-over-on-the-97-consensus-claim-done-right-this-time/. Great minds (humor?) must think alike, at least sometimes. I continue to believe that one can, unfortunately, usually follow the money to find out what is really going on. Particularly sad and destructive when it comes to science. I enjoy your geological comments immensely.
rgbatduke,
I owe you a brew or two as my partial tuition payment toward attending your online education series at WUWT.
If you are ever in NorCal . . . . . or if you are ever in upstate NY (Adirondack Mtns) in mid-summer.
John
“””””…..C. 50 years ago, a Meteorologist had the bright idea of using the output temperature of an optical pyrometer with an IR filter to give the S-B IR Irradiance. Pyrgeometers are calibrated against a cavity black body’s Irradiance, not a real energy flux. Their output signal is Irradiance……”””””
Well I don’t have a PhD in “Applied Physics” whatever, that is. I always thought applied physics was either chemistry, or engineering. Didn’t even know you could get a PhD in it. I thought of getting one, in ice cream making, but decided to go to work at a job, instead.
Time for you to take a refresher course.
Black bodies (by themselves) do NOT have an IRRADIANCE; i.e. , Watts per m^2.
The output from a black body, is a RADIANCE, i.e. Watts per steradian, per m^2.
IRRADIANCE is a measure of INCIDENT radiation; NOT of EXIDEDENT radiation, which is called EMITTANCE.
But you probably never were in a 4-H club, where they teach you stuff like that; (maybe Boy Scouts even)
Jim G says:
May 22, 2014 at 8:25 am
Sorry to offend Joel, but IMO the fact is indisputable that many scientists (far from all) are in it for the money. As with politicians & bureaucrats, it beats working. They’re also in it for the ideological “cause” & for the psychological satisfaction of being in the public spotlight, like Mann.
As I said, the proof is in the pudding. Climate “science” is so execrable that the preposterous results have to be intentional, whatever the motivation.
As with spies, follow not only the Money but Ideology, Compromise or Coercion (as in the peer pressure applied to young scientists) & Ego or Extortion (MICE, as counter-intel agents have it).
I’m glad you appreciate my comments.
PS: In the climate “science” version of MICE, the C might stand for Career advancement, quite apart from the Money.
mellyrn says:
May 21, 2014 at 12:58 pm
“Cosmic explanations — there may well be a perceptible cycle, but why? What’s changing? Does the sun pass through regions of space that kick it into higher gear, or cause it to slow down?”
Interesting conjecture.
If the density of energy coming into the solar system from the center of our galaxy and the universe varies over time, then this could explain the observed connection between the solar magnetic cycle and the climate of the planets, Including Earth – this happening even though the TSI changes very little. Just have to posit that not all solar system energy is coming from the sun.
milodonharlani says:
May 22, 2014 at 8:33 am
“Ideology, Compromise or Coercion (as in the peer pressure applied to young scientists) & Ego or Extortion (MICE, as counter-intel agents have it).” are all, indeed, also potentially in the mix. I did not say “power” as money and power are many times one and the same. We both seem to have forgotten “sex” as a significant driver in some cases. Perhaps it is my age that caused me to, at least momentarilty, pass over this possibility. I will not say ‘forget’ this possibility as I am not THAT old yet.
Jim G says:
May 22, 2014 at 8:47 am
Yes, MICE is inadequate to account for all spying motives. You’d have to add love & sex, as well as being disgruntled, feeling unappreciated, ill-used, bearing a grudge, etc. I suppose Mann might get laid more often by patchouli-oiled Green-leaning women with hairy armpits & legs thanks to his CACA star status, given his unappetizing personal appearance & obnoxious personality. But IMO he’s in it mostly for the money, ideology & status.
@george e smith: I correctly use the term ‘black body level’ to classify the amplitude of Radiant Emittance from the plane Earth’s surface, emissivity c. 1, or self-absorbed GHG band amplitudes from atmosphere to surface, intercepted by a plane detector. The mean emissivity of the semi-transparent atmosphere for temperate regions is c. 0.6, but varies with temperature and humidity.
When incident on a plane pyrgeometer detector, the instrument outputs an approximation to Irradiance of the atmosphere but in reality it is the instrument’s internal black body Radiant Emittance minus the Radiant Emittance of the detector surface to the lower emissivity and perhaps slightly cooler atmosphere. In other words, the instrument transfers energy to the atmosphere and the convolved signal is far from the real atmospheric Radiant Emittance.
Calibration of these instruments must be hell because they cannot work as claimed and in the present iterations, they use thermistors to correct for internal convection! The black body cavity calibrant is very different from the semi-transparent atmosphere.
When the pyrgeometer is used to measure the surface-emitted Irradiance, there is next to zero cooling of the detector so the instrument outputs a near black body level signal. The same calibration errors apply but are unimportant.
The key issue is that if the pyrgeometer is not present, net Irradiance from surface to atmosphere, the real net IR energy flux, is by definition Irradiance UP – Irradiance DOWN. In other words, the instrument shield makes it measure an approximation to incident irradiance, NOT A REAL IR FLUX.
I hope this is clear.
The phycobabel from AlecM , May 22, 2014 at 9:24 am, ends with “I hope this is clear.”
Alex, are you kidding me? … Or just totally delusional?
milodonhardini:
They don’t fail ludicrously. There are significant uncertainties for reasons I have described but then there is also a concerted effort, driven by ideology (and, in some cases, also economic interests) to discredit them through half-truths and falsehoods, driven by the same factors that attack all science that is inconvenient to certain political, ideological, or religious views. Attacks on science by ideologues like yourself are nothing new…and all of them have very similar modis operandi (which is why, for example, the primary group defending evolution science has added the defense of climate science to its agenda).
AlecM;
Calibration of these instruments must be hell because they cannot work as claimed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
If they didn’t work as claimed, they couldn’t be calibrated at all.
rgbatduke says, May 22, 2014 at 5:14 am:
“(…) a cosmically naive misconception of the way the GHE works.”
Yes, that’s your misconception, Robert. The idea that the surface is forced to heat beyond solar thermal equilibrium because the atmosphere contains radiatively active gases and not simply because the atmosphere has a mass (a heat capacity) and hence is ABLE TO WARM. It is the TEMPERATURE (and specifically the temperature PROFILE, the gradient away from the solar-heated surface) of the atmosphere that makes it an insulating layer for the surface. THAT’S why the surface heat can not move out as fast as it comes in before it’s warmed beyond the non-atmo steady state.
Energy (heat) is moved from surface to tropopause by convection, not by radiation. Try the ‘hand next to vs. above the candle flame’ trick and you’ll see what I’m referring to. That’s why the temp profile matters. The global environmental lapse rate maintained fluctuating around the adiabatic lapse rate by the tight interaction between surface solar heating and the buoyant/evaporative response.
And then the weight of the atmosphere exerts a pressure above 0 on the surface (which space doesn’t), setting a limit to buoyant acceleration and evaporation rate (that is, a ‘sub-max’ escape rate of energy) from the surface up at a certain temperature.
It’s sooo simple. The atmospheric warming effect on the surface has got NOTHING to do with its content of radiatively active gases. This is about a massive gas in a gravity field being warmed by the surface underneath as opposed to a situation where the same surface sits in a vacuum. OF COURSE this gas will act as insulation to the surface!
The atmosphere would’ve warmed with OR WITHOUT the presence of these radiatively active gases, simply from being convectively coupled to the solar-heated surface. The atmosphere could, however, NOT have been adequately cooled to space without their presence. Because then radiation is crucial. So THAT’S what they do. THAT’S what they’re there for. The atmosphere warms the surface DESPITE the presence of its radiatively active gases, not BECAUSE of it.
Petty talks about atmospheric RADIATION. That’s the problem. It doesn’t govern anything (except the ultimate cooling of the atmosphere (and hence, the earth system) to space). It is governed.