Top Ten Skeptical Arguments that Don’t Hold Water

(Note: this originally published on Dr. Spencer’s blog on April 25th, and I asked if I could reproduce it here. While I know some readers might argue the finer points of some items in the list, I think it is important to keep sight of these. – Anthony)

by Roy W. Spencer, Ph. D.

There are some very good arguments for being skeptical of global warming predictions. But the proliferation of bad arguments is becoming almost dizzying.

I understand and appreciate that many of the things we think we know in science end up being wrong. I get that. But some of the alternative explanations I’m seeing border on the ludicrous.

So, here’s my Top 10 list of stupid skeptic arguments. I’m sure there are more, and maybe I missed a couple important ones. Oh well.

My obvious goal here is not to change minds that are already made up, which is impossible (by definition), but to reach 1,000+ (mostly nasty) comments in response to this post. So, help me out here!

1. THERE IS NO GREENHOUSE EFFECT. Despite the fact that downwelling IR from the sky can be measured, and amounts to a level (~300 W/m2) that can be scarcely be ignored; the neglect of which would totally screw up weather forecast model runs if it was not included; and would lead to VERY cold nights if it didn’t exist; and can be easily measured directly with a handheld IR thermometer pointed at the sky (because an IR thermometer measures the IR-induced temperature change of the surface of a thermopile, QED)… Please stop the “no greenhouse effect” stuff. It’s making us skeptics look bad. I’ve blogged on this numerous times…maybe start here.

2. THE GREENHOUSE EFFECT VIOLATES THE 2ND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS. The second law can be stated in several ways, but one way is that the net flow of energy must be from higher temperature to lower temperature. This is not violated by the greenhouse effect. The apparent violation of the 2nd Law seems to be traced to the fact that all bodies emit IR radiation…including cooler bodies toward warmer bodies. But the NET flow of thermal radiation is still from the warmer body to the cooler body. Even if you don’t believe there is 2-way flow, and only 1-way flow…the rate of flow depends upon the temperature of both bodies, and changing the cooler body’s temperature will change the cooling rate (and thus the temperature) of the warmer body. So, yes, a cooler body can make a warm body even warmer still…as evidenced by putting your clothes on.

3. CO2 CANT CAUSE WARMING BECAUSE CO2 EMITS IR AS FAST AS IT ABSORBS. No. When a CO2 molecule absorbs an IR photon, the mean free path within the atmosphere is so short that the molecule gives up its energy to surrounding molecules before it can (on average) emit an IR photon in its temporarily excited state. See more here. Also important is the fact that the rate at which a CO2 molecule absorbs IR is mostly independent of temperature, but the rate at which it emits IR increases strongly with temperature. There is no requirement that a layer of air emits as much IR as it absorbs…in fact, in general, the the rates of IR emission and absorption are pretty far from equal.

4. CO2 COOLS, NOT WARMS, THE ATMOSPHERE. This one is a little more subtle because the net effect of greenhouse gases is to cool the upper atmosphere, and warm the lower atmosphere, compared to if no greenhouse gases were present. Since any IR absorber is also an IR emitter, a CO2 molecule can both cool and warm, because it both absorbs and emits IR photons.

5. ADDING CO2 TO THE ATMOSPHERE HAS NO EFFECT BECAUSE THE CO2 ABSORPTION BANDS ARE ALREADY 100% OPAQUE. First, no they are not, and that’s because of pressure broadening. Second, even if the atmosphere was 100% opaque, it doesn’t matter. Here’s why.

6. LOWER ATMOSPHERIC WARMTH IS DUE TO THE LAPSE RATE/ADIABATIC COMPRESSION. No, the lapse rate describes how the temperature of a parcel of air changes from adiabatic compression/expansion of air as it sinks/rises. So, it can explain how the temperature changes during convective overturning, but not what the absolute temperature is. Explaining absolute air temperature is an energy budget question. You cannot write a physics-based equation to obtain the average temperature at any altitude without using the energy budget. If adiabatic compression explains temperature, why is the atmospheric temperature at 100 mb is nearly the same as the temperature at 1 mb, despite 100x as much atmospheric pressure? More about all this here.

7. WARMING CAUSES CO2 TO RISE, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND The rate of rise in atmospheric CO2 is currently 2 ppm/yr, a rate which is 100 times as fast as any time in the 300,000 year Vostok ice core record. And we know our consumption of fossil fuels is emitting CO2 200 times as fast! So, where is the 100x as fast rise in today’s temperature causing this CO2 rise? C’mon people, think. But not to worry…CO2 is the elixir of life…let’s embrace more of it!

8. THE IPCC MODELS ARE FOR A FLAT EARTH I have no explanation where this little tidbit of misinformation comes from. Climate models address a spherical, rotating, Earth with a day-night (diurnal) cycle in solar illumination and atmospheric Coriolis force (due to both Earth curvature and rotation). Yes, you can do a global average of energy flows and show them in a flat-earth cartoon, like the Kiehl-Trenberth energy budget diagram which is a useful learning tool, but I hope most thinking people can distinguish between a handful of global-average average numbers in a conceptual diagram, and a full-blown 3D global climate model.

9. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GLOBAL AVERAGE TEMPERATURE Really?! Is there an average temperature of your bathtub full of water? Or of a room in your house? Now, we might argue over how to do the averaging (Spatial? Mass-weighted?), but you can compute an average, and you can monitor it over time, and see if it changes. The exercise is only futile if your sampling isn’t good enough to realistically monitor changes over time. Just because we don’t know the average surface temperature of the Earth to better than, say 1 deg. C, doesn’t mean we can’t monitor changes in the average over time. We have never known exactly how many people are in the U.S., but we have useful estimates of how the number has increased in the last 50-100 years. Why is “temperature” so important? Because the thermal IR emission in response to temperature is what stabilizes the climate system….the hotter things get, the more energy is lost to outer space.

10. THE EARTH ISN’T A BLACK BODY. Well, duh. No one said it was. In the broadband IR, though, it’s close to a blackbody, with an average emissivity of around 0.95. But whether a climate model uses 0.95 or 1.0 for surface emissivity isn’t going to change the conclusions we make about the sensitivity of the climate system to increasing carbon dioxide.

I’m sure I could come up with a longer list than this, but these were the main issues that came to mind.

So why am I trying to stir up a hornets nest (again)? Because when skeptics embrace “science” that is worse that the IPCC’s science, we hurt our credibility.

NOTE: Because of the large number of negative comments this post will generate, please excuse me if I don’t respond to every one. Or even very many of them. But if I see a new point being made I haven’t addressed before, I’ll be more likely to respond.

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John West
May 1, 2014 7:08 am

John West says:
” #7 is most likely true pre-anthropogenic influence”
Now that I’m on a real keyboard I can clarify why I think that’s important. Estimates of climate sensitivity based on proxy data are confounded by atmospheric CO2 concentration increase being a feedback to warming from whatever cause. So when Mann et al say something to the effect of low climate sensitivity is precluded by proxy data they’re claiming to be able to separate forcing from feedbacks in the proxy data. I’m skeptical that’s possible. The crux of the whole debate rests on just how sensitive is the climate at current state to a doubling or quadrupling of atmospheric CO2 concentration.

May 1, 2014 7:08 am

Excellent list, and I’m in agreement with almost all of it.
But like other commenters, I have a problem with #7. There is clear empirical evidence that ∆T causes ∆CO2.
Also, I enjoyed the comment that CO2 is the “elixir of life”. Very true. The whole global warming debate revolves around the demonization of “carbon”.

Angech
May 1, 2014 7:09 am

Point 3.0 needs some clarity.
Yes the molecule absorbs the IR and moves faster increasing the temp of the CO2 containing air . But it does bump into other particles which might give them the energy to emit IR. This is happening all the time with the other particles as well so the response time is not instantaneous but is very short. The extra momentum given to the particles by the IR before they can generate IR out I s what causes a temperature rise which stabilises when the new temp causes the IR to be emitted at the same rate as the incoming IR. The fact that the rates of emission and absorption can be different would surely not apply to an air sample in a container at a stable temperature with regard to a stable energy (IR) input would it?
Unless there are other forms on energy going out ??
Which would be twisting the gist of your statement somewhat.

May 1, 2014 7:11 am

“7. WARMING CAUSES CO2 TO RISE, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND The rate of rise in atmospheric CO2 is currently 2 ppm/yr, a rate which is 100 times as fast as any time in the 300,000 year Vostok ice core record.”
Or your reading the ice core record 100 times slower than you should. Tree rings are annual rings ice core rings aren’t.

Scottish Sceptic
May 1, 2014 7:11 am

I’m sorry the title is really stupid.
Because if they don’t hold water then they are not skeptical arguments.

Julien
May 1, 2014 7:13 am

Thanks for this good article, although there isn’t any surprise there. Sometimes I’ve doubted point #8, but now I think it’s ok. There are still some obscure areas:
– About point #2, when a photon hits a CO2 molecule, it can be as well transformed into cinetic energy (same as heat at the atomic level), and therefore it can generate convection (and therefore winds). Globaly it concludes that energy is either transformed into heat or wind, but that doesn’t really change anything.
The real argument behind the fact that climate models might break the second law of thermodynamics is because the climate models may neglect convection.

barry
May 1, 2014 7:14 am

Bravo!
I am what most people here would call a “warmist.” Having duked it out for years with critics, I am well familiar with the flub that propagates the skeptical side of the debate (I’m sure regulars here would say the same of proponents), and the above is all too familiar. This post is way overdue, and congratulations to WUWT for posting it.
Can I make a request? Can the clear-thinking critics correct others on points such as the above, rather than letting them pass because they support the messaging? I know it does happen, but you will strenghten the position of the skeptical movement in general if you self-correct amongst yourselves with vigour, every time. Because the debate is so polarised and hostile, proponents have little traction, even on matters that Spencer sorts out in the article. Let the skeptical movement be truly skeptical.
To obviate the inevitable tit-for-tat, yes, I try to correct my fellows when I think they err (EG, sea level acceleration/deceleration is not certain from 1900, it is not likely that methane release presents a big problem with current understanding, high CS is not certain, the range of future possibilites is broad, the recent hiatus in surface temperatures is not easily explained away and deserves frank and open discussion). Some may disagree with my implied take on these matters, but the point is – I don’t let comments from my kith pass just because they are in roughly the same direction as my own opinions.
While I am not of the milieu posting regularly here – except that we are all passionate about the debate – I hope like hell there are enough of us who put facts over agenda and politics that we can actually converse and make progress on understanding things, including each other. We do not have to agree, but I hope we can at least agree on some basics and improve the signal to noise ratio in these debates. The ubiquitous guff and reflex pugilism that we all wade through does none of us any good, and I, for one, am heartily sick of it. There are alarmists out there who oversell one side of the story, and there are deniers out there who refuse to acknowledge basic facts. They are the extremists. Let’s not be them.
Again, bravo, Dr Spencer.

David A
May 1, 2014 7:15 am

There is more then one straw man in Dr. Spencer’s overall OK post. Basically the CAGW enthusiast all agree, so it is natural that skeptics fall into every other possible camp. This means it will be natural for skeptic’s to have disparate views. It would have been best to call those considering a different view wrong because… The use of the word stupid is antagonizing and counter productive.
Just one example for now is number 4. Very few skeptics claim CO2 ONLY causes cooling. However the question of the net affect is debated rationally and constructively, as the radiation of energy from the top of the atmosphere being the earths only effective way to dissipate energy to space. Questions on the interaction of convection, conduction, evaporation and radiation, which all interact in complicated manners, are very legitimate, and the net affect is not known in any kind of engineering style analysis, such as what Steven McIntyre has consistently called for.

Gregory
May 1, 2014 7:16 am

I thought it was all about sensitivity

Angech
May 1, 2014 7:17 am

Point 4.0 is a very difficult concept. One take on it would be that the greenhouse gases including CO2 increase in concentration and hence absorb and emit some of the IR back to space immediately. Hence less gets down in the first place. Now what is down there is slowed in its passage out all the way back to the top layer which is now cooler because it has less total energy in the system to heat it up(having reflected/emitted that portion of heat earlier).
The lower layers are hotter despite having less total heat because they are trapping the outgoing heat as extra motion energy(temperature) as per point 3.

Jeremy Das
May 1, 2014 7:18 am

9. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GLOBAL AVERAGE TEMPERATURE

Why is “temperature” so important? Because the thermal IR emission in response to temperature is what stabilizes the climate system….the hotter things get, the more energy is lost to outer space.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I’d be grateful if you would explain why taking the global average of temperature measurements at a height of ~2m [or whatever is the right figure] above ground level is useful for this.

kowalk
May 1, 2014 7:19 am

Thanks for that collection of arguments.
There is something I don’t understand. I always wonder, why an IR-photon on its way from sun to earth surface can be caught by CO2, and if, what is the difference according to its energy for atmosphere, if instead of this CO2 the IR-photon hits the ground, changes to warmth and heats the atmosphere, as well. From a simple point of total energy, it should be the same, or? So why is CO2 in atmosphere worse, since otherwise the IR-photon hits the ground and becomes energy as well (and causes probably the same temperature)? This is what I don’t understand.
Also, for me a ‘greenhouse’ hinders convection and cooling from wind, and keeps therefore its surrounding warmer, not because of any special gas inside. But this is probably only a question of naming, not functionality of CO2 in atmosphere.

May 1, 2014 7:19 am

Hogg at 6:17 am
Could Dr Spencer complement this valuable article with its analogue
ie Ten Skeptical Arguments that do hold water?

Absolutely necessary and should immediately follow this post.

ferdberple
May 1, 2014 7:20 am

The physical mechanism may be different but the effect is the same. Thus it is called a “greenhouse” effect.
=============
flying and driving both have the same effect. they transport you from one place to another. yet imagine the confusion it would cause if we gave them the same name, the “transport effect”.
good science is about accuracy. it starts with accurate labels. if you call a horse and a dog a dog, pretty soon you can’t tell if what you have is a horse or a dog.

Frank K.
May 1, 2014 7:20 am

I’m a big fan of Dr. Roy Spencer, and agree generally with all of his points. Thanks!

Jimbo
May 1, 2014 7:22 am

There are going to be a lot of comments by the Slayers on this thread so this is my last. Good luck if you can stomach the persistence.

Judith Curry
Sent via email:
Here is one comment that I have received via email, that I have permission to post:
“It is exasperating that results easily demonstrable by simple laboratory experiment continue to be challenged by some members of this group. However superficially ingenious their arguments, they fly in the face of experiments that even children can perform with readily-available materials, as well as contradicting proven results in astrophysical theory. I do not propose to contribute further to this group: it is not a sensible deployment of my time. -”
Monckton of Brenchley

mpainter
May 1, 2014 7:22 am

Roy,
It looks like you are getting clobbered on #7. Better prop that one up a bit, if you can. My personal understanding is that warmer SST emits higher CO2. Am I wrong?
mpainter

Leon0112
May 1, 2014 7:22 am

While I agree with your anaylsis of #9, I believe the measurement of variables used in climate models is a serious one. In particular, useful chaotic, nonlinear systems require a level of accuracy of initial conditions beyond our ability to measure. This makes constructing climate models that accurately forecast the future difficult, if not impossible. Therefore, the usage of these models by politicians such as Mann displays immense hubris or deceit.

May 1, 2014 7:23 am

Paul and Raymond, I would say there is no “correct” temperature. There are different temperature metrics which are imperfect, but still useful to monitor. The temperature sensors in my refrigerator and freezer only sample a tiny portion of the interior, are probably biased warm or cold compared to the average interior temperature, but still are extremely useful metrics to monitor and keep the fridge running at a useful temperature.

Resourceguy
May 1, 2014 7:23 am

I see this as confirmation of my addiction to WUWT as a source for climate science information because I don’t recognize any of these items on the list and I certainly am not aware of “proliferation” of them anywhere. Does the author have some agenda here. More information on where the “proliferation” is coming from would be more insightful than the list itself. I suppose if all blogs were counted equally you could come up with a list like this and call it proliferation.

kim
May 1, 2014 7:25 am

Re: The elixir of life. Paleontology clearly(heh) shows that warmer and more CO2 sustains greater total life and greater diversity of life. We’ve not seen that phenomenon halted at any level of warmth or of risen CO2. We’ve certainly seen the devastation to the biome when temps and/or CO2 fall.
We carbon based bits of cosmic dust. Salud!
===========

climatereason
Editor
May 1, 2014 7:25 am

Nothing I would particularly disagree with except I would quibble with no 9
9. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GLOBAL AVERAGE TEMPERATURE
My main disagreement would be is it a useful measure? It disguises the other things going on, whereby parts of the globe warm, cool, or stay static whilst others are going in the opposite direction.. Its more important to know what regions aren’t conforming to ‘global warming’ and to know why. A belief in one global temperature obviates the need to look at the detail
Also, I would agree with several other comments who asked what was the ideal temperature and WHEN was it reached in the past that we are trying so hard to get back to it.
IMHO this would be a useful list to have as one of the permanent sidebar links and also that it would be useful to have the top 10 stupid warmist points. Good stuff Dr spencer
tonyb

ferdberple
May 1, 2014 7:25 am

I submit that climate science is bad science because it labels “greenhouse effect” by its effect, not by its cause. this leads to scientific confusion and ambiguity, because multiple causes can have the same effect.