The Merchants of Smear

The sanctioned punishment of climate skeptics becomes more than just a few aberrant ideas, and is following some historical parallels

First, I loathe having to write essays like this, but I think it is necessary given the hostile social climate now seen to be emerging.

Yesterday, WUWT highlighted the NYT cartoon depicting killing “deniers” for having a different opinion, today I want to highlight Naomi Orekses and Suzanne Goldenberg, who seem seem to like the idea of having climate “deniers” arrested under RICO act for thought collusion, all under the approving eye of the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard.

Watch the video:  The RICO quote is about 1:12:30 in the video. Note that none of the panelists blinks an eye at the suggestion. They are all smiling after Oreskes finishes.

From the description of the video:

The science is clear: drastic global climate change due to human activities threatens our planet. Yet, a well-funded international campaign continues to deny the scientific consensus, foment public doubt and oppose action. The media—especially social media—have helped fuel false controversy and climate skepticism. How can climate change communication be improved?

Panel discussion with:

Suzanne Goldberg, U.S. Environment Correspondent, The Guardian

Dr. Naomi Oreskes, Professor of the History of Science, Harvard University

Dr. Peter Frumhoff, Director of Science & Policy, Union of Concerned Scientists

Moderated by:

Cristine Russell, Senior Fellow, Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs’ Environment and Natural Resources Program

Introduction by:

Henry Lee, Director, Belfer Center’s Environment and Natural Resources Program

February 13, 2014

Of course, no prominent climate skeptics were invited to give a counterpoint, though WUWT does make an appearance.

An actual quote from Goldenberg in the video at 2:50

“I don’t know what CAGW was”

This makes me wonder just how competent she is to write about the topic. The irony is completed full circle though. At 2:20 she claims WUWT “actually isn’t about science” while our “best science blog” banners are projected near her head and while highlighting Justin Gillis, tell us again about “the Bigger Picture” (an opinion piece) and A relationship between Sea Ice Anomalies, SSTs, and the ENSO? (a science piece).

At least we know they are reading WUWT.

Goldenberg won’t cover the topics we cover, simply because she isn’t capable and is in the employ of a newspaper (the Guardian) with a clear goal to push only one viewpoint about climate. And, her objectivity, now that she runs in this circle of friends, is blown out of the water.

Oreskes, who authored the book Merchants of Doubt, seems to think that climate skeptics are little more than paid shills, deserving of criminal status, while Goldenberg works tirelessly to create strawmen houses out of the thinnest of research, which she publishes in the Guardian. She also follows the Oreskes mindset in thinking that we all must be on somebody’s payroll and that we are all part of a “secret network” of well funded climate resistance.

Lately, this sort of hateful and distorted thinking is getting a bit worrisome as statistician William Briggs observes:

=========================================================

RICO-style prosecution. For what tangible crime? Well, heresy.

(Has to be heresy. The amount of money I have extorted from my skepticism hovers between nada and nil.)

This put me in mind of a passage from from Dawn to Decadence by the indispensable Jacques Barzun (pp 271-272):

The smallest divergence from the absolute is grave error and wickedness. From there it is a short step to declaring war on the misbelievers. When faith is both intellectual and visceral, the overwhelming justification is that heresy imperils other souls. If the erring sheep will not recant, he or she becomes a source of error in others….[P]ersecution is a health measure that stops the spread of an infectious disease—all the more necessary that souls matter more than bodies.

Even though not all admit this, their actions prove that souls are more important than bodies. Thought crimes are in many senses worse than physical crimes; they excite more comment and are more difficult to be forgiven for. Perhaps the worst crime is to be accused of racism (the charges needn’t be, and frequently are not, true; the accusation makes the charge true enough). It is now a thought crime to speak out against sodomy (and to say you personally are a participant is a matter of media celebration).

Barzun said that sins against political correctness “so far” have only been punished by “opprobrium, loss of employment, and virtual exclusion from the profession.” (I can confirm these.) Barzun said, “any form of persecution implies an amazing belief in the power of ideas, indeed of mere words casually spoken.”

The Enlightened, who simper when calling each other “free thinkers”, in one of their favorite myths tell us how they left the crime of heresy behind. The word has been forgotten, maybe, but not the idea.

Stalin sent his victims to the firing squad for the crime of “counter-revolution”, not heresy. Being repulsed by sodomy is not heresy, it is “homophobic”. Believing in God and practicing that belief is not heresy, but “fundamentalism.” Cautioning that affirmative action may cause the pains the program is meant to alleviate isn’t heresy, but “racism.” Saying that unskillful Climate models which routinely bust their predictions should not be trusted is not heresy, but is “anti-science.”

Boy, has Science come up in the world to be a personage one can sin against.

=========================================================

And AlexJC notes in Der Ewige “Denier” on the NYT cartoon depicting killing “deniers” that a pattern is emerging.

=========================================================

Some commentators on WUWT have likened this little scene to Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda in the 1930s, and I’m inclined to agree. There’s a pertinent article, called “Defining the Enemy” on the website of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum:

One crucial factor in creating a cohesive group is to define who is excluded from membership. Nazi propagandists contributed to the regime’s policies by publicly identifying groups for exclusion, inciting hatred or cultivating indifference, and justifying their pariah status to the populace.

There’s a picture you can find online of the “stereotypical Jew”, which was drawn by Nazi cartoonist Philipp “Fips” Rupprecht and published in the newspaper Der Stürmer sometime before the end of World War II. Although different in some respects to the “stereotypical Denier” in the NYT, there are a number of similarities. Both subjects are male, well-dressed, rather plump and well-fed and standing with their chests slightly thrust out. Both have distinctive noses – the Jew has a large hooked nose and the Denier has one that is more reminiscent of a pig’s snout. Both are smoking a cigar, which is clearly the mark of an evil plutocrat anywhere, Jewish or otherwise. The similarities are quite unsettling.

=========================================================

Indeed, they are, and worse yet, few if any, in the general science community seem to have the courage to stand up and say anything about these people and the actions they do and/or suggest as being inappropriate or antithetical to science.

Roy Spencer is the exception for scientists who have decided to speak out against this hate and smear, and has decided to fight back by labeling anyone who calls him a “climate denier” as a “climate Nazi”. I’m not sure how effective or useful that will be, but clearly he’s reached a tipping point. He adds:

A couple people in comments have questioned my use of “Nazi”, which might be considered over the top. Considering the fact that these people are supporting policies that will kill far more people than the Nazis ever did — all in the name of what they consider to be a righteous cause — I think it is very appropriate. Again, I didn’t start the name-calling.

Caption on photo “Reichsfuhrer J. Cook” Source: Skepticalscience.com forum

The parallels with what occurred in pre-WWII Germany seem to be emerging with the constant smearing of climate skeptics for the purpose of social isolation, and now Oreskes is calling for members of this group to be charged with crimes under RICO. This isn’t new, we’ve heard these calls for climate skeptics to be arrested before, such as Grist’s David Roberts who proposed Nuremberg style trials for climate skeptics, but lately it seems to be picking up speed.

We even have people in the same climate clique playing virtual dress up as Nazis, such as we’ve learned recently from the “Skeptical Science” forum showing proprietor John Cook in full Nazi uniform in the image seen at right. There were several Nazi images depicting SkS.

And, there’s the call for removing dissenting opinion from the press, such as from “Forecast the Facts” (a funded NGO that attacks media)

“Brad Johnson (@ClimateBrad), the editor of HillHeat.com and a former Think Progress staffer, boasted on Twitter that 110,000 people had urged the newspaper “to stop publishing climate lies” like the Krauthammer piece.”

Source:  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/24/heating-up-climate-change-advocates-try-to-silence-krauthammer/

We’ve already seen one prominent newspaper refuse to publish letters from climate skeptics with others following suit.

What is most troubling to me is that Oreskes and Goldenberg appear to be of Jewish descent (as does Dr. Michael Mann) and yet they all seem blind to the pattern of behavior they are engaging in and advocating; the social isolation and prosecution of climate skeptics which seems so reminiscent of the ugliness in times past. I honestly don’t understand how they can’t see what they are doing to silence climate skeptics is so very wrong.

It does seem true, that those who don’t learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.

From my viewpoint, the only way to combat this ugliness is with taking a stand. These tactics must be called out when they are used. I urge readers to write thoughtful and factual letters, guest commentary where accepted, and blog posts, countering such smear whenever appropriate.

MODERATION NOTE: Comments will be heavily scrutinized, keep it civil.

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Samuel C Cogar
February 25, 2014 6:48 am

richardscourtney says:
February 24, 2014 at 2:31 pm
Our host has provided an excellent article about pro-AGW zealots attempting to demonise those who refuse to accept their dogma.
Some members of the ultra-right are using it as excuse to demonise socialists.
Does anybody fail to see the irony of this?

—————-
Richard, give it up, there is no irony for one to see. It is of my opinion that you are trying to force others to change their opinions of a specific entity simply because their opinions differ drastically with your nurtured cultural beliefs.
The fact is that the liberal socialists (in the US) are “part and parcel” and directly aligned with and highly supportive of all things being claimed by the other proponents of CAGW.
And my reason for saying that is explained in the following commentary which I authored 2 or 3 years ago. So please read said ……. and hopefully you will comprehend why “The Devil made them do it”, to wit:
——————————
Me thinks one will get a more sound and realistic perspective if they honestly look at the “roots” of human caused CO2 causing Anthropogenic Global Warming.
And to do that they have to look at the three (3) distinctly different groups of people who “have a BIG dog in the CO2 fight”, and it is of my opinion …… that all of them, for their own personal reasons, have been desperately trying to convince the public that:
1. Increasing Global Warming is “right as rain” and will destroy life on earth if not kept in check;
2. The cause of AGW is the “greenhouse” gas CO2 that is increasing in the atmosphere;
3. Human activities are the cause of CO2 increasing in the atmosphere;
And the three (3) groups are, to wit:
Group #1: Government funded Climate Scientists – This group has expended years n’ years and hundreds of millions of government funds researching the effects of Greenhouse Gases and to justify past expenditures and their future existence they were forced to provide a PJE (Proof of Job Existence) for public approval …. and thus their “proof(s)” are their claimed “increasing average temperatures”.
Group #2: Opportunists wanting “part of the action” – with so much “free” taxpayer money being distributed indiscriminately they seized upon the opportunity to “jump on the Global Warming bandwagon” anywhere they could get “hold” so as to get their share of said tax dollars and used the “claimed proofs” attested to by the aforementioned Climate Scientists to justify their actions.
Group #3: Environmentalists and liberal socialists – when Group #1 and Group #2 got CO2 declared an “air contaminent” and the primary cause of AGW ……. it was a Godsend for Group #3 and they also “jumped on the Global Warming bandwagon” and cited the “claims” of Group #1 and Group #2 for the explicit purpose of furthering their agenda of “shutting down” all Capitalism and Capitalists ventures they could by claiming they contribute to the increase in atmospheric CO2 quantities.
Given the above, is there any question as to why there is a “concensus of opinion” among the three (3) above Groups that ….. CO2 causes AGW?

Joe
February 25, 2014 6:52 am

highflight56433 says:
February 24, 2014 at 4:03 pm
Socialists are the enemy. That has been exhaustively demonstrated. So by Mr Richard S. Courtney, an admitted socialist, you can not be a Christian and a socialist. He and his followers are also enemies of the our state. Our confederacy of states does not include socialism. The fact that it exists does not make it constitutional nor does it mean we agree to it’s existence.
————————————————————————————————————-
So it’s “The Land of the Free as long as you agree with us” according to you.
Anyone else see the irony there given the thread this is in?

JohnWho
February 25, 2014 6:53 am

richardscourtney
Illegitimi non carborundum
(“Rusty” Latin)

DS
February 25, 2014 7:34 am

Joe says:
February 25, 2014 at 6:52 am
So it’s “The Land of the Free as long as you agree with us” according to you.
Anyone else see the irony there given the thread this is in?

I see the irony of people desperately trying to whitewash and redefine socialism as anything other than its actual fruits of the last 100+ years; going as far as to imply socialism has somehow not resulted in unbelievably massive amounts of deaths, and attempting to discredit and slander people here who voiced concern over said fruits.
What’s next, anyone who believes socialism results in the destruction of not only peoples liberties, but also often their lives, should be prosecuted for their skepticism of the soundness that supposedly is socialism? Maybe a cartoon depicting ways to dispel evil socialism deniers? Or should we just not allow socialism deniers a voice in public forums? (I apologize for having to ask, but please understand that all three and much, much more are generally applied to deniers of socialism in socialist countries.)

beng
February 25, 2014 7:55 am

Thanks Anth_ny. This issue does indeed need to be fully exposed. The thought processes of these people are frightening. Salaries paid by taxpayers/governments/NGOs is the common thread.

Joe
February 25, 2014 8:09 am

DS says:
February 25, 2014 at 7:34 am
Joe says:
February 25, 2014 at 6:52 am
So it’s “The Land of the Free as long as you agree with us” according to you.
Anyone else see the irony there given the thread this is in?
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
I see the irony of people desperately trying to whitewash and redefine socialism as anything other than its actual fruits of the last 100+ years; going as far as to imply socialism has somehow not resulted in unbelievably massive amounts of deaths, and attempting to discredit and slander people here who voiced concern over said fruits.
————————————————————————————————————
In case it’s slipped your notice, I haven’t “attempt[ed] to discredit and slander” anyone either here or anywhere else.
Yet, I’ve been branded “the enemy”, “enemy of our state” and, by association, responsible for “unbelievably massive amounts of deaths”. I’ve also been accused of “attempting to discredit and slander” people (see my first paragraph).
I’m socialist. I make no bones about that, and I have no reason to pretend otherwise in a free world. As a socialist, I do [i]not[/i] equate capitalists with the old Barns who kept their peasants in slavery and took their pick of betrothed virgins before their wedding night. Because doing so would only show ignorance and prejudice.
Nor do I equate all right-wing parties with certain Godwin-invoking figures. Who, incidentally, were [i]not[/i] socialist – just using it in your party name doesn’t make it so. If it did, the Green party would be comprised of Martians!
I happen to know a great number of left-leaning people who are higly sceptical of AGW but won’t engage in the debate because of the personal abuse they see being routinely meted out against political views which they, rightly, see as nothing whatsoever to do with science.
The foul and viscious opinions expressed by AGW supporters that have prompted this thread are nothing to do with socialism, or liberalism, or monster-rabing-loonyism. They’re entirely to do with obnoxious people gaining some level of public exposure and using it to press their own prejudices. Just as McCarthy did in ’60s America and just as all who allow the climate debate to be derailed into “socialist / antisocialist” slanging matches are doing today.

Jimbo
February 25, 2014 8:24 am

“actually isn’t about science”

They can start by browsing just these two categories and tell us there is no science there with a straight face. These folks are the ones living in a pretend world of denial.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/category/climate-sensitivity/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/category/radiative-imbalance/

highflight56433
February 25, 2014 9:03 am

Samuel C Cogar is exactly on target. It is the socialist taxation and redistribution of my wealth that feeds such a monster.

DS
February 25, 2014 9:36 am

Joe says:
February 25, 2014 at 8:09 am
“In case it’s slipped your notice, I haven’t “attempt[ed] to discredit and slander” anyone either here or anywhere else.”
When you attempt to align yourself with someone who has, you would logically be perceived as endorsing their actions.
“I make no bones about that, and I have no reason to pretend otherwise in a free world.”
Exactly! That is what others have tried to express. There is very little to no real threat for Socialists in a Libertarian environment – the same can not be said in reverse though; hence the conversation
“Who, incidentally, were [i]not[/i] socialist – just using it in your party name doesn’t make it so.”
Hitler would likely disagree with your excuses for him
“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”
(although, I will note and accept, he did backtrack that quite a bit after the instant backlash such statements caused him. I guess that leaves it as a judgement call. That is, which is the more logical belief attributed to the individual; that which he initially expressed and named his political party after, or that which he attempted to claim after the initial backlash for expressing such thoughts?)
“The foul and viscious opinions expressed by AGW supporters that have prompted this thread are nothing to do with socialism”
Except, again, we have specifically been told Socialism is the ultimate solution to CAGW.
Meanwhile, here people are merely expressing the similarities of the attacks being waged against “deniers” and the attacks waged by the same Hitler I quoted above, plus similar Socialist Governments from all over the world once they have gained a little bit of power for themselves and feel their power is threatened by free expression. These tactics are always used to stop dissidence in such environments, just as they are being used today by the AGW crowd.
I am not sure why people making a very logical connection is somehow so horrible in your eyes (or at least people who you choose to align yourself with.) If you are upset such a connection can be made, then your issue should be with the Socialists who make such a connection possible. If you don’t agree a connection can be made… well, the evidence does not seem to be on your side and one could logically come to the conclusion you are acting just as the CAGW pushers do – that is, blatantly ignoring that which you desperately don’t want to hear in an attempt to hold onto what you want to believe

February 25, 2014 9:40 am

Mods:
At February 24, 2014 at 6:13 pm our host wrote

Richard S. Courtney, please take a time out for 24 hours. That goes for the people attacking him as well.- Anth0ny

I am breaching that request with this post to register my umbrage that while I try to fulfill that request the Merchants of Smear posting as Samuel C Cogar and highflight56433 are continuing their actions without redress.
Richard
REPLY: yet Richard, twice before I’ve asked you to take time outs because of food fights erupting on threads related to your commentary. Perhaps a review of your commenting style might be in order so as to not make yourself the center of contention? – Anthony

February 25, 2014 9:42 am

And DS is doing it, too.

February 25, 2014 9:42 am

I’m not sure what the point is about the similarity between Nazi propaganda and some of the climate change nonsense. The Nazis’ Jewish capitalist imagery bears some resemblance to the anti-white-man prejudices of the greens, but that’s because they took it from the left in the first place, and added their own racial bias (they took the classic ‘fat cat with cigar’ image and made him Jewish). Some of the modern green left have the same prejudices as the pre-WWII communists, and that’s why their propaganda is more similar to Stalinism than Nazism. So it’s no good saying Oreskes and Goldenberg should know better because they’re Jewish.

Joe
February 25, 2014 10:14 am

DS says:
February 25, 2014 at 9:36 am
[too much to quote]
———————————————————————————————————————
The thing is, DS, we’re not being told that socialism is the answer. At least, not here in the UK and certainly not by anyone except capitalists concerned that their slice of the pie might get moved to some other (nouveau) capitalist.
I see no sign whatsoever of any party – not even the (so called) socialists in Labour – here suggesting that we should do the sensible thing in response to the growing heat and light crisis and move at least the generation back into Public hands.
We’re a small island, we don’t have the room or the population to justify 3 or 4 companies “competing” (read: colluding) to generate our relatively small power needs., yet we’re fully committed to allowing (foreign) private companies do so. Our next nuclear station is slated to be built by a private consortium of the French and Chinese ffs – how exactly does that fit any definition of socialism? It smacks of purely capitalist selling of a captive market to the highest bidder, regardless of what’s best for the peasants.
We also have schemes where those who are wealthy enough to own their own homes and invest in solar or similar technology get paid for their excess off the bills of those less fortunate. The poor over here are usually on pre-payment meters, where they pay more in standing charges and per unit for the privelige of paying before they use the stuff and also pay a premium to cover the cost of the buy-in schemes for the rich. That is what’s happening in the name of AGW and I defy you do honestly say it’s socialism!
What we are being told is that Big Oil and Big Coal are bad, and should be replaced by (privately owned) Big Solar, Big Nuclear and Big Wind. If these new “Bigs” ever materialise they will not be socialist ventures!. So, no, the world isn’t being told that socialism is the answer. America may be told that by those who stand to lose out, but America isn’t (last time I checked) “the world”.
Meanwhile, it may have escaped your notice that the world’s only remaining big socialist power is ignoring the climate issue completely and steaming ahead with whatever power keeps it competetive.
Western capitalism is a dog-eat-dog world. If people are foolish enough to believe that the new Dogs are in any way “socialist” just cos they wave a green flag and get some misguided hippies to cheer them on then they deserve to get bitten.
The “socialism” aspect of AGW is nothing but a convenient (if somewhat transparent) distraction from the real issues. Fall for it and be distracted at your peril.

Reply to  Joe
February 25, 2014 11:27 am

Joe:
We also have schemes where those who are wealthy enough to own their own homes and invest in solar or similar technology get paid for their excess off the bills of those less fortunate. The poor over here are usually on pre-payment meters, where they pay more in standing charges and per unit for the privelige of paying before they use the stuff and also pay a premium to cover the cost of the buy-in schemes for the rich. That is what’s happening in the name of AGW and I defy you do honestly say it’s socialism!
It’s also not capitalism. There are no captive markets under capitalism. What you describe is a bastardized system where corporations and wealthy individuals influence government for their own ends. Anyone who considers himself a capitalist would reject such a system just as much as socialism.

wayne
February 25, 2014 10:21 am

Chad Wozniak
February 25, 2014 10:31 am

NO, richardscourtney, I will NOT apologize for telling the truth about socialism and AGW and what they have in common. You can take that and shove it. If you don’t like what I said, tough shit! You are NOT going to silence me, nor is any other socialist. *I* am on the moral high ground here, not you. How revealing your authoritarianism and antilibertarianism is – and how typical of socialists.

Chad Wozniak
February 25, 2014 11:31 am

Right on, TonyG.

john robertson
February 25, 2014 11:58 am

Enough already.
This thread diverting over the definition of socialism has to stop.
It is possible that the label does not mean to them, what you assume the person using it means.
This is the divide and conquer game, get people fighting over labels, not substance.
The people who lust for power over others, who must rule us all or dissolve into panic, use every cloak available.
If religion ruled our civic discourse, they would be the most pious.
As science was the modern standard, they presented themselves as scientists.
If experts are respected, they will dress up as “most expert”.
If consensus has power, they will be the most consensual.
Up thread @clipe 3:46pm E.M.Smiths reply to Bain, sums up the smear campaign and why it fails.
They are falling from grace, in their own faith.
Shrill voiced attempts at self justification have to happen, the fall away from true belief seems to follow a pattern.
While I caution all to beware senseless violence from the conflicted, the trick is to remain kind, gentle even in your critiquing of the cause.
Humour does more damage to the rigid zealot, than any amount of confrontation and abuse.
Dr Spencer, while rightly angered has fallen for the bait.
They are not Nazis, they are just wanna bees,abuse is confidence building for the humourless and self haters.
Eco-Nasties is a term I am coming to enjoy, mocks the child, chides them and refuses to take their dark fantasy seriously.
Falling into the pain, anger and vileness these concerned, saviours of the planet, wallow in is to give them credibility they have not earned.
These pathetic human failures dreaming about rounding me and mine up and executing us for climate crimes…
I hear them, but I do not fear them.
Rather I say flatter them, encourage this outpouring.
For the public does recognize madness, while they may chose to defer to the experts on climate.
As spokespersons who destroy what they claim to promote, could any of the visitors here have invented better characters?

Joe
February 25, 2014 12:24 pm

Beautifully put, John. Kind of the point I was trying to make but, like others, I allowed myself to get diverted into arguing irrelevancies.
I’m suitably chastised, and thank you.

Legatus
February 25, 2014 12:41 pm

FerdinandAkin says:
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
– Mahatma Gandhi
It looks like we are fully into the fighting stage at this point.

You should know something about Gandhi, there was a reason he won, and it wasn’t this tactic. He was using tactics originally described (sort of) by one Jesus Christ, and using it to gain freedom from a country that at least nominally believed in him. The result was that their conscience was pricked, and, since they were a democratic country, they were able to do something about it I once read a story where Nazi Germany overran India, and was apposed by Gandhi. He stages non-cooperation, and they sent in soldiers into every 20th persons house and dragged out and killed the children, just as they did in their occupied territories (which stayed remarkably quiet or else). Then they sent a Moslem to kill him, just as actually happened later. Germany, after all, was not a democracy anymore, and was run by someone who privately called himself “the perfect pagan”, whatever he might tell his people. Gandhi’s tactic might work for freedom from England, not Germany.
Also, Gandhi worship is ignorance. Later in life, he decided between Christianity and Hinduism, he went Hindu. He imposed rules, for instance, on his son, to give up all desires, including sex with his wife. The constant rules keeping drove his son crazy and he died of drink. Also, Gandhi believed he could make peace with the Moslems, the result, a big war, a lot of random religious violence, and Gandhi realized just before he was assassinated that people were not as naturally and universally good as he had believed.
If they are ruthless enough when they fight, and they can fool enough of the people enough of the time, THEY win. They won in Germany, Russia, China, Italy, Japan, and in numerous countries today.
People get the kind of government they deserve, and they get it good and hard.

DS
February 25, 2014 1:01 pm

Joe says:
February 25, 2014 at 10:14 am
I am not going to address your personal thoughts as to how great socialism supposedly is; there will never be agreement there. You are free to have such thoughts, no matter how incorrect I see them as. That has no baring on the conversation (which is, the motives and tactics of the CAGW crowd)
I will address a few select quotes though
“The thing is, DS, we’re not being told that socialism is the answer. At least, not here in the UK and certainly not by anyone except capitalists concerned that their slice of the pie might get moved to some other (nouveau) capitalist.”
http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/ecological-crisis-capitalism.html
Or would you rather I quote Figueres about how beneficial the communist system in China is in addressing Climate Change, instead of the “very detrimental” system in places such as the US?
“What we are being told is that Big Oil and Big Coal are bad, and should be replaced by (privately owned) Big Solar, Big Nuclear and Big Wind.”
Privately owned by (generally) whom, exactly? Or maybe a better way to phrase that question would be move it forward and ask, would those people still be in a similar (or better) public position if the political systems above them became Socialist overnight?
And while privately owned, how are they funded? And how are those funds acquired again – by choice or force?
“Western capitalism is a dog-eat-dog world”
That sounds a lot like Darwinism. Inconveniently, the laws of nature are quite difficult to dictate or corral without gaining absolute control of everything though, aren’t they?
There is a reason statements such as “Communism/Socialism works great absent people” exist
“Meanwhile, it may have escaped your notice that the world’s only remaining big socialist power is ignoring the climate issue completely and steaming ahead with whatever power keeps it competetive.”
You will have to help me here; which one is it that doesn’t profess desires to have the world address Climate Change?
” If people are foolish enough to believe that the new Dogs are in any way “socialist” just cos they wave a green flag and get some misguided hippies to cheer them on then they deserve to get bitten.”
People choose to believe it because of their actions and tactics. There is a well established pattern of gaining power for socialism thru such ways. Again, Hitler did it; hence the entire conversation.
But let’s just advance the conversation a bit and ask – why do you think the CAGW crowd (the ones with power, that is) is so committed to it despite all logic and reason if not for expanded Government control over the population of the world? This entire campaign attacks both cheap energy and food supply – that makes up 2 of the 3 things desperately needed for the survival of populations. (Well, free ones at least; controlled ones would just be given what it was deemed they deserve by the controlling body.) They know that, yet they turn blinders to what they don’t want to hear and accept while instead continuing to push forward with this agenda why exactly?

DS
February 25, 2014 1:09 pm

richardscourtney says:
February 25, 2014 at 9:42 am
And DS is doing it, too.
Don’t bring me into your issue, I am merely replying to Joe
Or is civil conversation on the topic presented no longer allowed, and I just somehow missed the memo?

Lars P.
February 25, 2014 3:25 pm

Maybe Dr. Roy’s approach has something in it: one talks about “denier” then the other answers with “global warming nazi” with the explanation:
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2014/02/time-to-push-back-against-the-global-warming-nazis/
Howevere the calling names does not invite to a scientific debate. Calling skeptics “deniers” is shutting the debate from the very beggining. Is this what the CAGW crowd intends? And only this?
Zerohedge has an interesting post about trolling – calling names being a conversation destroyer, shutting down the thinking ability:
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2014-02-25/why-trolls-start-flame-wars-swearing-and-name-calling-shut-down-ability-think
Then the decision is not taken rationally based on judgement but based on feelings: one wants to be with the “good people”, to be doing good, not like those evil “deniers”, fossil fuel shills and so on.
Legatus says:
February 25, 2014 at 12:41 pm

FerdinandAkin says:
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
– Mahatma Gandhi
It looks like we are fully into the fighting stage at this point.
You should know something about Gandhi, there was a reason he won, and it wasn’t this tactic. He was using tactics originally described (sort of) by one Jesus Christ, and using it to gain freedom from a country that at least nominally believed in him. The result was that their conscience was pricked, and, since they were a democratic country, they were able to do something about it I once read a story where Nazi Germany overran India, and was apposed by Gandhi…..

Indeed Legatus, as you say, it works only in a democratic country, it would not have worked under a dictator, maybe this is why some greens are so disappointed with the democratic process, and like those in the video ask for shutting down the voices they do not want to be heard? None of the ….. persons speaking to shutting in the video has any knowledge of the science they are talking about, isn’t this funny?
“The science is clear: drastic global climate change due to human activities threatens our planet.”
These “§$$%%%&(!) have not even bothered to spend a minute trying to understand what skeptics say about models?
They have not listened one second but know it is a well-funded international campaing!
“Yet, a well-funded international campaign continues to deny the scientific consensus”
Science by consensus!!:
http://joannenova.com.au/2013/09/monckton-honey-i-shrunk-the-consensus/
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/06/global-warming-in-a-few-slides.php
How can climate change communication be improved?
Well certainly not through persecution of the skeptics for heresy, that does not improve communication.The science explains it by itself, if one understand science, what this group there in the video unfortunately does not show it does…
There was no debate, the science is far from being settled, CO_2 is at the moment only greening the planet, nothing else, warming has stalled since 17 years, even with all the adjustments, with “them” guarding the data the models are a failure.

Richard D
February 25, 2014 3:28 pm

john robertson says:
February 25, 2014 at 11:58 am
Enough already.
This thread diverting over the definition of socialism has to stop.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Right on….
I believe scientists of all political persuasions across disciplines are honor bound to stand up for truth and academic freedom by opposing this cancer that permeates not only their realm but also government, academia, media, religious institutions and private enterprise.

February 25, 2014 3:57 pm

Anth0ny:
You gave a 24 hour time out to me and those attacking me. Halfway through that time out I asked that I be treated with parity because the attacks had continued while I was honouring the ruling. You have replied

REPLY: yet Richard, twice before I’ve asked you to take time outs because of food fights erupting on threads related to your commentary. Perhaps a review of your commenting style might be in order so as to not make yourself the center of contention? – Anth0ny

No. This started because highflight56433 made untrue smears of socialists on the other thread and carried them to this thread. Not content with that, he made a very personal attack of my religion. And he was supported by a group of other ultra-right extremists.
So, I was subjected to off-topic attacks of my political and my religious beliefs.
You responded to my attempts to defend myself by giving me and my assailants a time out, and halfway through the time out I made the request which you have answered. Your reply ignores my request and blames my “commenting style” for the unprovoked, untrue and off-topic attacks which have subsequently continued.
OK. There is only one possible meaning of that response to my request. This is your blog and I have no desire to intrude. But I point out that when I left WUWT before I left with as little fuss as possible, and I only returned because of pressure from several people. This time I leave in fulfillment of your publicly expressed desire, and it being your blog the desires of others are not relevant.
Richard

REPLY:
Asking you to leave is not the same as a time out. I didn’t ask you to leave permanently. I can’t police everything and everybody, but like it or not, your comments have a habit of provoking food fights and it costs me time. So if you’d rather leave than self review, that’s your choice. – Anthony

February 25, 2014 4:11 pm

All this nonsense about socialism is rightly being requested by the moderator and Anthony to please cease.Yet it continues.
You are insulting Anthony and abusing his blog, “not to mention” also annoying genuine commentors.

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