Guest essay by Donald C. Morton
Herzberg Program in Astronomy and Astrophysics, National Research Council of Canada
ABSTRACT
The Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change released in September 2013 continues the pattern of previous ones raising alarm about a warming earth due to anthropogenic greenhouse gases. This paper identifies six problems with this conclusion – the mismatch of the model predictions with the temperature observations, the assumption of positive feedback, possible solar effects, the use of a global temperature, chaos in climate, and the rejection of any skepticism.
THIS IS AN ASTROPHYSICIST’S VIEW OF CURRENT CLIMATOLOGY. I WELCOME CRITICAL COMMENTS.
1. INTRODUCTION
Many climatologists have been telling us that the environment of the earth is in serious danger of overheating caused by the human generation of greenhouse gases since the Industrial Revolution. Carbon dioxide (CO2) is mainly to blame, but methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O) and certain chlorofluorocarbons also contribute.
“As expected, the main message is still the same: the evidence is very clear that the world is warming, and that human activities are the main cause. Natural changes and fluctuations do occur but they are relatively small.” – John Shepard in the United Kingdom, 2013 Sep 27 for the Royal Society.
“We can no longer ignore the facts: Global warming is unequivocal, it is caused by us and its consequences will be profound. But that doesn’t mean we can’t solve it.” -Andrew Weaver in Canada, 2013 Sep 28 in the Globe and Mail.
“We know without a doubt that gases we are adding to the air have caused a planetary energy imbalance and global warming, already 0.8 degrees Celsius since pre-industrial times. This warming is driving an increase in extreme weather from heat waves to droughts and wild fires and stronger storms . . .” – James Hansen in United States, 2013 Dec 6 CNN broadcast.
Are these views valid? In the past eminent scientists have been wrong. Lord Kelvin, unaware of nuclear fusion, concluded that the sun’s gravitational energy could keep it shining at its present brightness for only 107 years. Sir Arthur Eddington correctly suggested a nuclear source for the sun, but rejected Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar’s theory of degenerate matter to explain white dwarfs. In 1983 Chandrasekhar received the Nobel Prize in Physics for his insight.
My own expertise is in physics and astrophysics with experience in radiative transfer, not climatology, but looking at the discipline from outside I see some serious problems. I presume most climate scientists are aware of these inconsistencies, but they remain in the Reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), including the 5th one released on 2013 Sep 27. Politicians and government officials guiding public policy consult these reports and treat them as reliable.
2. THEORY, MODELS AND OBSERVATIONS
A necessary test of any theory or model is how well it predicts new experiments or observations not used in its development. It is not sufficient just to represent the data used to produce the theory or model, particularly in the case of climate models where many physical processes too complicated to code explicitly are represented by adjustable parameters. As John von Neumann once stated “With four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.” Four parameters will not produce all the details of an elephant, but the principle is clear. The models must have independent checks.
Fig. 1. Global Average Temperature Anomaly (°C) upper, and CO2 concentration (ppm) lower graphs from http://www.climate.gov/maps-data by the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. The extension of the CO2 data to earlier years is from the ice core data of the Antarctic Law Dome ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/icecore/antarctica/law/law_co2.txt.
The upper plot in Fig. 1 shows how global temperatures have varied since 1880 with a decrease to 1910, a rise until 1945, a plateau to 1977, a rise of about 0.6 ºC until 1998 and then essentially constant for the next 16 years. Meanwhile, the concentration of CO2 in our atmosphere has steadily increased. Fig. 2 from the 5th Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (2013) shows that the observed temperatures follow the lower envelope of the predictions of the climate models.
Fig. 2. Model Predictions and Temperature Observations from IPCC Report 2013. RCP 4.5 (Representative Concentration Pathway 4.5) labels a set of models for a modest rise in anthropogenic greenhouse gases corresponding to an increase of 4.5 Wm–2 (1.3%) in total solar irradiance.
Already in 2009 climatologists worried about the change in slope of the temperature curve. At that time Knight et al. (2009) asked the rhetorical question “Do global temperature trends over the last decade falsify climate predictions?” Their response was “Near-zero and even negative trends are common for intervals of a decade or less in the simulations, due to the model’s internal climate variability. The simulations rule out (at the 95% level) zero trends for intervals of 15 yr or more, suggesting that an observed absence of warming of this duration is needed to create a discrepancy with the expected present-day warming rate.”
Now some climate scientists are saying that 16 years is too short a time to assess a change in climate, but then the rise from 1978 to 1998, which was attributed to anthropogenic CO2, also could be spurious. Other researchers are actively looking into phenomena omitted from the models to explain the discrepancy. These include
1) a strong natural South Pacific El Nino warming event in 1998 so the plateau did not begin until 2001,
2) an overestimate of the greenhouse effect in some models,
3) inadequate inclusion of clouds and other aerosols in the models, and
4) a deep ocean reservoir for the missing heat.
Extra warming due to the 1978 El Nino seems plausible, but there have been others that could have caused some of the earlier warming and there are also cooling La Nina events. All proposed causes of the plateau must have their effects on the warming also incorporated into the models to make predictions that then can be tested during the following decade or two of temperature evolution.
3. THE FEEDBACK PARAMETER
There is no controversy about the basic physics that adding CO2 to our atmosphere absorbs solar energy resulting in a little extra warming on top of the dominant effect of water vapor. The CO2 spectral absorption is saturated so is proportional to the logarithm of the concentration. The estimated effect accounts for only about half the temperature rise of 0.8 ºC since the Industrial Revolution. Without justification the model makers ignored possible natural causes and assumed the rise was caused primarily by anthropogenic CO2 with reflections by clouds and other aerosols approximately cancelling absorption by the other gases noted above. Consequently they postulated a positive feedback due to hotter air holding more water vapor, which increased the absorption of radiation and the backwarming. The computer simulations represented this process and many other effects by adjustable parameters chosen to match the observations. As stated on p. 9-9 of IPCC2013, “The complexity of each process representation is constrained by observations, computational resources, and current knowledge.” Models that did not show a temperature rise would have been omitted from any ensemble so the observed rise effectively determined the feedback parameter.
Now that the temperature has stopped increasing we see that this parameter is not valid. It even could be negative. CO2 absorption without the presumed feedback will still happen but its effect will not be alarming. The modest warming possibly could be a net benefit with increased crop production and fewer deaths due to cold weather.
4. THE SUN
The total solar irradiance, the flux integrated over all wavelengths, is a basic input to all climate models. Fortunately our sun is a stable star with minimal change in this output. Since the beginning of satellite measures of the whole spectrum in 1978 the variation has been about 0.1% over the 11-year activity cycle with occasional excursions up to 0.3%. The associated change in tropospheric temperature is about 0.1 ºC.
Larger variations could explain historical warm and cold intervals such as the Medieval Warm Period (approx. 950 – 1250) and the Little Ice Age (approx. 1430 – 1850) but remain as speculations. The sun is a ball of gas in hydrostatic equilibrium. Any reduction in the nuclear energy source initially would be compensated by a gravitational contraction on a time scale of a few minutes. Complicating this basic picture are the variable magnetic field and the mass motions that generate it. Li et al. (2003) included these effects in a simple model and found luminosity variations of 0.1%, consistent with the measurements.
However, the sun can influence the earth in many other ways that the IPCC Report does not consider, in part because the mechanisms are not well understood. The ultraviolet irradiance changes much more with solar activity, ~ 10% at 200 nm in the band that forms ozone in the stratosphere and between 5% and 2% in the ozone absorption bands between 240 and 320 nm according to DeLand & Cebula (2012). Their graphs also show that these fluxes during the most recent solar minimum were lower than the previous two reducing the formation of ozone in the stratosphere and its absorption of the near UV spectrum. How this absorption can couple into the lower atmosphere is under current investigation, e. g. Haigh et al. (2010).
Fig. 3 – Monthly averages of the 10.7 cm solar radio flux measured by the National Research Council of Canada and adjusted to the mean earth-sun distance. A solar flux unit = 104 Jansky = 10-22 Wm-2 Hz-1. The maximum just past is unusually weak and the preceding minimum exceptionally broad. Graph courtesy of Dr. Ken Tapping of NRC.
Decreasing solar activity also lowers the strength of the heliosphere magnetic shield permitting more galactic cosmic rays to reach the earth. Experiments by Kirkby et al. (2011) and Svensmark et al. (2013) have shown that these cosmic rays can seed the formation of clouds, which then reflect more sunlight and reduce the temperature, though the magnitude of the effect remains uncertain. Morton (2014) has described how the abundances cosmogenic isotopes 10Be and 14C in ice cores and tree rings indicate past solar activity and its anticorrelation with temperature.
Of particular interest is the recent reduction in solar activity. Fig. 3 shows the 10.7 cm solar radio flux measured by the National Research Council of Canada since 1947 (Tapping 2013) and Fig. 4 the corresponding sunspot count. Careful calibration of the radio flux permits reliable comparisons
Fig. 4. Monthly sunspot numbers for the past 60 years by the Royal Observatory of Belgium at http://sidc.oma.be/sunspot-index-graphics/sidc_graphics.php.
over six solar cycles even when there are no sunspots. The last minimum was unusually broad and the present maximum exceptionally weak. The sun has entered a phase of low activity. Fig. 5 shows that previous times of very low activity were the Dalton Minimum from about 1800 to 1820 and the Maunder Minimum from about 1645 to 1715 when very few spots were seen. Since
these minima occurred during the Little Ice Age when glaciers were advancing in both Northern and Southern Hemispheres, it is possible that we are entering another cooling period. Without a
physical understanding of the cause of such cool periods, we cannot be more specific. Temperatures as cold as the Little Ice Age may not happen, but there must be some cooling to compensate the heating that is present from the increasing CO2 absorption.
Regrettably the IPCC reports scarcely mention these solar effects and the uncertainties they add to any prediction.
5. THE AVERAGE GLOBAL TEMPERATURE
Long-term temperature measurements at a given location provide an obvious test of climate change. Such data exist for many places for more than a hundred years and for a few places for much longer. With these data climatologists calculate the temperature anomaly – the deviation from a many-year average such as 1961 to 1990, each day of the year at the times a measurement
is recorded. Then they average over days, nights, seasons, continents and oceans to obtain the mean global temperature anomaly for each month or year as in Fig. 1. Unfortunately many parts of the world are poorly sampled and the oceans, which cover 71% of the earth’s surface, even less so. Thus many measurements must be extrapolated to include larger areas with different
climates. Corrections are needed when a site’s measurements are interrupted or terminated or a new station is established as well as for urban heat if the meteorological station is in a city and altitude if the station is significantly higher than sea level.
Fig. 5. This plot from the U. S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Agency shows sunspot numbers since their first observation with telescopes in 1610. Systematic counting began soon after the discovery of the 11-year cycle in 1843. Later searching of old records provided the earlier numbers.
The IPCC Reports refer to four sources of data for the temperature anomaly from the Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research and the European Centre for Medium-range Weather Forcasting in the United Kingdom and the Goddard Institute for Space Science and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in the United States. For a given month they can differ by several tenths of a degree, but all show the same long-term trends of Fig. 1, a rise from 1978 to 1998 and a plateau from 1998 to the present.
These patterns continue to be a challenge for researchers to understand. Some climatologists like to put a straight line through all the data from 1978 to the present and conclude that the world is continuing to warm, just a little more slowly, but surely if these curves have any connection to reality, changes in slope mean something. Are they evidence of the chaotic nature of climate with abrupt shifts from one state to another?
Essex, McKitrick and Andresen (2007) and Essex and McKitrick (2007) in their popular book have criticized the use of these mean temperature data for the earth. First temperature is an intensive thermodynamic variable relevant to a particular location in equilibrium with the measuring device. Any average with other locations or times of day or seasons has no physical meaning. Other types of averages might be more appropriate such as the second, fourth or inverse power of the absolute temperature, each of which would give a different trend with time. Furthermore it is temperature differences between two places that drive the dynamics. Climatologists have not explained what this single number for global temperature actually means. Essex and McKitrick note that it “is not a temperature. Nor is it even a proper statistic or index. It is a sequence of different statistics grafted together with ad hoc models.”
This questionable use of a global temperature along with the problems of modeling a chaotic system discussed below raise basic concerns about the validity of the test with observations in Section 2. Since climatologists and the IPCC insist on using this temperature number and the models in their predictions of global warming, it still is appropriate to hold them to comparisons with the observations they consider relevant.
6. CHAOS
Essex and McKitrick (2007) have provided a helpful introduction to this problem. Thanks to the pioneering investigations into the equations for convection and the associated turbulence by meteorologist Edward Lorenz, scientists have come to realize that many dynamical systems are fundamentally chaotic. The situation often is described as the butterfly effect because a small change in initial conditions such as the flap of a butterfly wing can have large effects in later results.
Convection and turbulence in the air are central phenomenon in determining weather and so must have their effect on climate too. The IPCC on p. 1-25 of the 2013 Report recognizes this with the statement “There are fundamental limits to just how precisely annual temperatures can be projected, because of the chaotic nature of the climate system.” but then makes predictions with confidence. Meteorologists modeling weather find that their predictions become unstable after a week or two, and they have the advantage of refining their models by comparing predictions with observations.
Why do the climate models in the IPCC reports not show these instabilities? Have they been selectively tuned to avoid them or are the chaotic physical processes not properly included? Why should we think that long-term climate predictions are possible when they are not for weather?
7. THE APPEAL TO CONSENSUS AND THE SILENCING OF SKEPTICISM
Frequently we hear that we must accept that the earth is warming at an alarming rate due to anthropogenic CO2 because 90+% climatologists believe it. However, science is not a consensus discipline. It depends on skeptics questioning every hypothesis, every theory and every model until all rational challenges are satisfied. Any endeavor that must prove itself by appealing to consensus or demeaning skeptics is not science. Why do some proponents of climate alarm dismiss critics by implying they are like Holocaust deniers? Presumably most climatologists disapprove of these unscientific tactics, but too few speak out against them.
8. SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS
At least six serious problems confront the climate predictions presented in the last IPCC Report. The models do not predict the observed temperature plateau since 1998, the models adopted a feedback parameter based on the unjustified assumption that the warming prior to 1998 was primarily caused by anthopogenic CO2, the IPCC ignored possible affects of reduced solar activity during the past decade, the temperature anomaly has no physical significance, the models attempt to predict the future of a chaotic system, and there is an appeal to consensus to establish climate science.
Temperatures could start to rise again as we continue to add CO2 to the atmosphere or they could fall as suggested by the present weak solar activity. Many climatologists are trying to address the issues described here to give us a better understanding of the physical processes involved and the reliability of the predictions. One outstanding issue is the location of all the anthropogenic CO2. According to Table 6.1 in the 2013 Report, half goes into the atmosphere and a quarter into the oceans with the remaining quarter assigned to some undefined sequestering as biomass on the land.
Meanwhile what policies should a responsible citizen be advocating? We risk serious consequences from either a major change in climate or an economic recession from efforts to reduce the CO2 output. My personal view is to use this temperature plateau as a time to reassess all the relevant issues. Are there other environmental effects that are equally or more important than global warming? Are some policies like subsidizing biofuels counterproductive? Are large farms of windmills, solar cells or collecting mirrors effective investments when we are unable to store energy? How reliable is the claim that extreme weather events are more frequent because of the global warming? Is it time to admit that we do not understand climate well enough to know how to direct it?
References
DeLand, M. T., & Cebula, R. P. (2012) Solar UV variations during the decline of Cycle 23. J. Atmosph. Solar-Terrestr. Phys., 77, 225.
Essex, C., & McKitrick, R. (2007) Taken by storm: the troubled science, policy and politics of global warming, Key Porter Books. Rev. ed. Toronto, ON, Canada.
Essex, C., McKitrick, R., & Andresen, B. (2007) Does a Global temperature Exist? J. Non-Equilib. Thermodyn. 32, 1.
Haigh. J. D., et al. (2010). An influence of solar spectral variations on radiative forcing of climate. Nature 467, 696.
IPCC (2013), Climate Change 2013: The Physicsal Science Basis. Contribution of Working Group I to the Fifth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, http://www.ipcc.ch
Li, L. H., Basu, S., Sofia, S., Robinson, F.J., Demarque, P., & Guenther, D.B. (2003). Global
parameter and helioseismic tests of solar variability models. Astrophys. J., 591, 1284.
Kirkby, J. et al. (2011). Role of sulphuric acid, ammonia and galactic cosmic rays in atmospheric
aerosol nucleation. Nature, 476, 429.
Knight, J., et al. (2009). Bull. Amer. Meteor. Soc., 90 (8), Special Suppl. pp. S22, S23.
Morton, D. C. (2014). An Astronomer’s view of Climate Change. J. Roy. Astron. Soc. Canada, 108, 27. http://arXiv.org/abs/1401.8235.
Svensmark, H., Enghoff, M.B., & Pedersen, J.O.P. (2013). Response of cloud condensation nuclei (> 50 nm) to changes in ion-nucleation. Phys. Lett. A, 377, 2343.
Tapping, K.F. (2013). The 10.7 cm radio flux (F10.7). Space Weather, 11, 394.
Earth’s average radius =~ 6371 kilometres
Oceans’ average depth =~ 4 kilometres
Atmosphere average height =~ 12 kilometres
We do rather tend to fixate on a very, very tiny sub-section of that overall view.
RichardLH says: February 19, 2014 at 4:28 am
Earth’s average radius =~ 6371 kilometres
Oceans’ average depth =~ 4 kilometres
Atmosphere average height =~ 12 kilometres
We do rather tend to fixate on a very, very tiny sub-section of that overall view.
Couldn´t agree more. Earth is a ball of molten rock. If you drill into the crust the temperature rises some 20 to 25 K for every kilometre.
The fixation on the thin atmosphere is unbelievable.
Thermal mass of the atmosphere is equal to that of about 3 meter of water.
Ben Wouters says:
February 19, 2014 at 4:55 am
“The fixation on the thin atmosphere is unbelievable.
Thermal mass of the atmosphere is equal to that of about 3 meter of water.”
And then we have to get into thermal coupling and human timescales 🙂
RACookPE1978 says: @ur momisugly February 18, 2014 at 8:11 pm
Gail:
What you want to look at is the column below called “Direct Radiation Horizontal Surface”.
Those are radiation received on the equinox for solar radiation at each latitude at noon….
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thank you. That is a lot more believable compared to Trenberth’s very unbelievable ~341 W/m^2
First let me say, I haven’t used calculus for more decades than I want to remember and my college physics courses are just as old so I am more of a lay person trying to get a ‘feel’ for what is going on.
I do realize the solar radiation is going to vary because of day of year, time of day, latitude, and atmospheric conditions however that variation is a large part of what gives the earth its weather.
As someone else said Trenberth and his buddies live on a world that is a flat disk always facing a weak star.
The value of 1150 W/m^2 at the equator at mid day vs TOA for that day receiving 1353 W/m^2 gives a much better idea of how much energy is ‘lost’ before it encounters the oceans at the Equator and is absorbed or reflected. ‘Lost’ is being reflected or being available to interact with the upper atmosphere such as forming ozone. In other words at that latitude at midday the atmosphere is pretty darn transparent especially when you consider the chemical reactions taking place in the atmosphere and the fact that some of the incoming radiation is absorbed and transformed in to ‘heat’ – kinetic energy.
Trenberth’s cartoon doesn’t even get into the chemical reactions taking place in the atmosphere.
If we compare the numbers in Trenberth’s cartoon to your numbers, he has 23 W/m^2 reflected by the surface and 162 W/m^2 absorbed or putting their flat disk as equivalent to a horizontal surface at midday some where between Lat_W of 70 to 80. I know I am comparing apples to the stuff coming out of the back end of a pig. However even, I as a lay person realizes the energy that hits the surface of the earth is not immediately re-radiated once the sun goes down else we would be heading towards absolute zero every night.
In other words Trenberth’s cartoon is using arithmetic, 1364/4 = 341 instead of using calculus as he should. This gives a completely false picture of what is going on.
(BTW, your answer is definitely a keeper.)
It does try, it’s just the Sun comes up before it gets very far. I have found looking at yesterdays rising temp and last nights falling temps as the year progresses very interesting. As the length of daylight to night ratio changes you can see the effect on daily temp. It’s also very illustrative to CS, every night once the Sun goes down Co2 reflects it’s prescribed amount of IR Earthward, and every night the surface cools to a fraction of a degree of this mornings temp, based on the ratio of day to night.
Nylo says:
February 19, 2014 at 1:54 am
Ben Wouters, you still don’t get it. You are attributing all of the difference between Earth and Moon’s average temperatures (91K) to GHGs….
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually Ben is attributing the difference to the fact that the earth is not a cold solid rock like the moon but a ‘Warm’ planet with internal heat aka a molten core.
Throws in this graph ducks, spins and runs and then sits back to watch the fun.
{:>)
…..
He has it sort of correct and so do you, since the earth does not instantaneously radiate ALL the energy back to space as soon as the sun goes down. The oceans, 70% of our surface area, act as giant hot water bottles. Also lower atmospheric water vapor releases the latent heat of evaporation as fog and dew moderating night temperatures over a lot of the land surface.
You can see that in the real world if you look at Day/Night temps in Brazil (humidity 80% with no rain) vs Algeria ( humidity around 0%). SEE my comment
This graph of the air temperature vs the sand temperature during a solar eclipse in the N. African desert is also enlightening. Air temps are much more effected by the loss of direct energy that the sand is. The air temperature drop is over 12 °C while the sand temperature drop is only ~ 5 °C.
(H/t to Sleepalot for pointing all this out.)
I did this same experiment in the backyard one frosty night, The air dropped before freezing, the grass got a nice white frost on it, but the bricks in the patio never dropped below freezing.
Gail Combs says: February 19, 2014 at 6:42 am
The massive amount of energy the sun sends into the oceans in the tropics during daytime is buffered in the upper 5 meters or so. The surface temperature varies only 1K between day and night, unless the surface is calm ( no waves) and no wind is blowing
RichardLH says:February 19, 2014 at 5:47 am
And then we have to get into thermal coupling and human timescales 🙂
The base for our current climate has been laid some 84 million years ago, when the last serious warming of our earth ended. Deep ocean temperatures were ~18K HIGHER than today.
The oceans (and thus climate) have been cooling down since then.
Simpletons who actually believe that a few CO2 molecules could cause those high deep ocean temperatures are beyond believe.
This 18K higher temperatures put the current OHC discussion in its proper place as well.
Mi Cro says:
February 19, 2014 at 7:00 am
Richard, My comments were in response to Konrad comment:
Without radiative gases our atmosphere has no effective way to cool. If our atmosphere has no way to cool, the oceans have no way to cool. They could reach 80C if not beyond.
I think this is flat wrong, his reason was because without a dipole there’s no way for the “non-radiative” gases to cool, again, all atoms above 0K radiate IR. I’m okay with your comment it’s not an important factor in cooling the planet (we have radiative gases).
All molecules do not radiate IR if they’re above 0K, they can only do so if they have a dipole, this is fundamental Physical chemistry! Molecules such as CO2 (bending modes and asymmetric stretch), HCl, CO, H2O etc.have dipoles and emit in the IR, N2, Ar and O2 do not have dipoles and do not emit in the IR (not within 6 orders of magnitude of the radiative species).
You need to lose your mistaken idea that all atoms above 0K, it’s just not true, basic freshman Physical chemistry.
But they do all radiate.
MiCro says:
“But they do all radiate.”
Thank you, MiCro. That was my point upthread. Now Phil. is qualifying that to mean ‘radiate in the in the IR‘.
==============================
Also, I would like to comment george e. smith and richardcourtney for their explanations. I always learn something from them.
dbstealey says:
February 19, 2014 at 10:58 am
MiCro says:
“But they do all radiate.”
Thank you, MiCro. That was my point upthread. Now Phil. is qualifying that to mean ‘radiate in the in the IR‘.
No they don’t, your ‘worldview’ is wrong and that qualification was made by MiCro in the statements to which I replied:
Mi Cro says:
February 18, 2014 at 10:05 am
Why wouldn’t the “non-radiative” gases at worst, radiate as a black body to space?
Mi Cro says:
February 18, 2014 at 11:46 am
All elements and molecules radiate in ir based on their temperature.
Mi Cro says:
February 18, 2014 at 1:45 pm
The gas contents of a nitrogen bottle will normalize to room temp, the electrons will vibrate based on their temp, and they will radiate black body IR based on that temp.
Phil, again your reply is very enlightening.
Gail Combs says:
February 19, 2014 at 5:49 am
In other words Trenberth’s cartoon is using arithmetic, 1364/4 = 341 instead of using calculus as he should. This gives a completely false picture of what is going on.
I think not, try integrating the insolation over the whole sphere over latitude and longitude.
Phil. says:
February 19, 2014 at 1:14 pm
“I think not, try integrating the insolation over the whole sphere over latitude and longitude.”
Don’t forget the whole 1 year orbital period as well if you do Long and Lat integration – it does kinda matter you know.
Mi Cro says:
February 19, 2014 at 1:43 pm
Phil, again your reply is very enlightening.
Good, it’s important to get the science right.
RichardLH says:
February 19, 2014 at 1:34 pm
Phil. says:
February 19, 2014 at 1:14 pm
“I think not, try integrating the insolation over the whole sphere over latitude and longitude.”
Don’t forget the whole 1 year orbital period as well if you do Long and Lat integration – it does kinda matter you know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It also matters whether it is land or ocean receiving the energy from the sun. It matters whether it is sand, rock, asphalt or vegetation if it is land. The amount of heat stored over 24 hours varies with the material as well as varying with the humidity, latitude and time of year.
The other obfuscation is the amount of upward LWR varies with the temperature which in turn varies with all of the above.
Mi Cro says:
“Phil, again your reply is very enlightening.”
That sounds like sarcasm to me. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Phil. has been wrong in the past, and he is wrong now. All it takes is viewing this thread. Anyone can see that Phil. has changed the discussion to mean that ‘radiate’ now means ‘in the in the IR’. But as anyone can see, I never wrote about IR. I simply pointed out that everything above absolute zero radiates. I was right about that, no? That is either a correct statement, or it is wrong.
As Willis would say: quote my words. Don’t move the goal posts.
dbstealey says:
February 19, 2014 at 8:07 pm
Mi Cro says:
“Phil, again your reply is very enlightening.”
That sounds like sarcasm to me. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Phil. has been wrong in the past, and he is wrong now. All it takes is viewing this thread. Anyone can see that Phil. has changed the discussion to mean that ‘radiate’ now means ‘in the in the IR’.
Only if they’re blind to the posts to which I was replying, which you clearly are!
But as anyone can see, I never wrote about IR. I simply pointed out that everything above absolute zero radiates. I was right about that, no? That is either a correct statement, or it is wrong.
It’s wrong, like most of your statements.
As Willis would say: quote my words. Don’t move the goal posts.
So don’t do it!
dbstealey says:
February 18, 2014 at 1:42 pm
Mi Cro says:
“All elements and molecules radiate in ir based on their temperature.”
Phil. says:
“Not in the gas phase they don’t!”
So even though the molecules are above absolute zero, they cannot radiate at all?
Pretty clear who moved the goalposts there!
Phil, I will concede the argument if you show me where I limited radiation to “IR”.
If you can’t, though, you lose.
Since Phil. avoids quoting my words verbatim like Dracula avoids sunlight, let me help him out here. I wrote:
So even though the molecules are above absolute zero, they cannot radiate at all?
My point probably whizzed right over Phil’s head. If he had carefully read what I wrote, he would have understood that I was making one simple point: every bit of matter above absolute zero radiates. I said nothing about IR. And quoting what others wrote wins no points. I will defend what I wrote, and watch as Phil. impotently tries to re-write it. ☺
dbstealey says:
February 19, 2014 at 9:39 pm
Phil, I will concede the argument if you show me where I limited radiation to “IR”.
It was limited by the prior discussion, you came in and tried to change the subject.
And more to the point, “every bit of matter above absolute zero” doesn’t radiate!
Phil. says:
February 19, 2014 at 10:00 pm
————————————–
I’m sorry, you are still wrong and dbstealey is still right. All matter above 0K emits electromagnetic radiation.
So called “non-radiative” gases such as N2 and O2 do absorb and emit electromagnetic radiation, they are just orders of magnitude poorer at doing this than “radiative” gases with three or more atoms in their molecules.
This is what leads to molecular super heating of “non-radiative” gases in the thermosphere, these gases only absorb a very, very small amount of IR and are primarily heated by solar UV, cosmic rays and intermittent bursts of solar wind from flux tunnelling events every 8 minutes. However because they are such poor emitters they need to reach a very high molecular temperature to radiate this energy away. Hence molecular temperatures in the thermosphere can be in the hundreds of degrees.
An example of “non-radiative” gases emitting electromagnetic radiation in other than the IR wavelengths at lower temperatures can be found in the most reliable* temperature record we have, satellite temperatures. These involve passive microwave sounding of the atmosphere. The system Dr. Spencer helped design is reading microwave emission from oxygen molecules in the atmosphere. So called “non-radiative” gases are emitting a very small amount in the electromagnetic spectrum. This is how satellite temperature record is derived.
*There remains an issue as to whether satellite sounding is “over-reading”. The system has not had multiple re-calibrations focused on ice and snow surface microwave reflection issues. The satellite temperature record shows recent slight cooling, but cooling may be greater than calculated as snow and ice levels are now frequently greater than 1979.
Phil, Konrad,
First let me say it isn’t as simple as I thought it was, and some of the following is a bit over my head, but I think it does explain how a non-radiative gas normalizes it’s temperature in the presence of a EM field, exchanging kinetic energy for EM, and back as needed, and in the process still create a black body spectrum.
The first link Quantum mechanics of thermal radiation
Finally, as a real example, stars radiate most of their energy as black body radiation, some are rather cold, Then there’s the large gas giants made mostly of hydrogen and helium, which I don’t think are GHG’s.
I’ll keep it simple. Donald gets three gold stars from me.
richardscourtney says: February 19, 2014 at 4:02 am
Ben Wouters: re your post at February 19, 2014 at 3:32 am.
Please read-up on the thermohaline circulation and amend you very mistaken ideas accordingly.
You may have missed my reply February 19, 2014 at 4:49 am.
I’m still waiting to hear how you propose to let warm surface water sink past the thermocline into the deep, cold, dense oceans and warm them substantially, to something like the 18K higher deep ocean temperatures we had ~84 million years ago.
Perhaps time to amend your mistaken ideas?
Ben Wouters:
re your post at February 20, 2014 at 4:26 am.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to waste this thread educating you on the thermohaline circulation. For now, I suggest you start learning about it by reading this
http://www.windows2universe.org/earth/Water/circulation1.html
The surface and deep ocean waters are not disconnected.
Richard
I do know about the thermohaline circulation. You’re mistaken in thinking it can warm the deep oceans. No need to believe me, let an oceanographer explain it:
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/ocean.html
Especially the part : What about thermohaline circulation?
The oceans have been and still are warmed by geothermal heat. Presently the 100 mW/m^2 flux is enough to warm all ocean water 1K every ~5000 years. The heated water can not rise to the surface whenever a thermocline and warm surface layer is in place (unless of course you believe in backconduction)
An occasional magma eruption adds to this steady warming. Think 100 million km^3 for a medium sized event.
Only place the deep oceans can cool is at high latitudes, where the thermohaline circulation starts.
Ben Wouters:
re your post at February 20, 2014 at 5:03 am.
Believe whatever you want. Reality is what it is. I will continue to accept that reality is what it is observed to be.
And that is my final response to your Red Herring.
Richard
Gail Combs says:
February 19, 2014 at 6:06 pm
“It also matters whether it is land or ocean receiving the energy from the sun. It matters whether it is sand, rock, asphalt or vegetation if it is land. The amount of heat stored over 24 hours varies with the material as well as varying with the humidity, latitude and time of year.”
I know.
It is just that people have a habit of only extending things only just enough to try and prove their point. They never consider how the next logical step might invalidate the ground on which they pitch their flag.