Dr. Mann doesn’t seem to know who he’s labeling as a “garden variety troll”.
This is probably just a conditioned reflex on his part, since anyone who disagrees with the omniscient Mann is eventually labeled a troll, but in this case, Dr. Mann’s annoyance gives the extra distinction of “garden variety troll”. Observe:
Source: [ http://twitter.com/EcoSenseNow/status/426611745562447872 ]
Um, I think Dr. Mann doesn’t recognize a fellow PhD when he sees one, and surely you’d think Dr. Mann would recognize the co-founder of Greenpeace. Apparently not.
I guess Dr. Mann took exception to the “sensible” part.
UPDATE: A tweet by “AndyMac” is worth mentioning here, especially since I witnessed Dr. Mann and others decrying the poisonous atmosphere that apparently is all the fault of “deniers” at a special session of AGU 2013:
@wattsupwiththat Mann seems to split his time thusly…
1) Complain about abuse, etc, in the media/journals.
2) Abuse, name call on twitter— Уинстън смифф (@AndyMeanie) January 24, 2014
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Mod:
You are right when you say
Difference of opinion on a subject is desirable because it exposes various understandings of the subject for all to see.
Trolls attempt to inhibit discussion of a subject by deflecting a thread onto another subject.
This thread is about Friday Funny – Mann Overboard! “Dr. Mann doesn’t seem to know who he’s labeling as a “garden variety troll”. So, discussion of trolls and trolling is not being a troll on this thread but it is on most threads.
Any attempt to deflect a thread onto a different subject is being a troll, and trolls need to be ‘called-out’ if their nefarious activity is to be defeated.
Richard
I clicked “continue reading” just knowing thus must be the makings of another great Josh Cartoon.
Ah….
You people don’t understand. If a person is always right and busy saving the world, the only possible explanation for opposition is oil-funded conspiracy or trolling. Gee, I wish I was always right…
Michael Mann seems to have evolved into the Kim Jong-un of the climate science community. Doesn’t he have work to do?
Greenpeace should erect a Soviet-style 10M bronze statue of Trofim Lysenko, the “prophet” upon whom this religious organization is based, directly in front of their headquarters.
– – – – – – – – –
steveta_uk / Patrick / ~ mod. ,
I am thankful for ‘Patrick’ for bring this up.
I agree with you if your thought is that the frequent name-calling involving the word ‘troll’ is unreasonable and unjustified on WUWT. So what is a ‘troll’?
I would not have a concept of ‘troll’ to be centered on vehemently opposing a thread’s populist logics. Nor would I consider that a concept of ‘troll’ has anything to do with a very direct or a very indirect chain of thought of a commenter. Some thinkers are very (amazingly) subtly indirect and have many wondrous intermediate inferences before one can appreciate where they are going with their thoughts. The path is pyschologically illuminating and often educational, often lead to expanding the lead post in new lead posts. Nor would I consider being oblique to any simple literal association to the main thrust of thread’s development as being part of the concept of ‘troll’. That stuff makes WUWT a great venue, in my view.
I think the concept of ‘troll’ is essentially not about the relations to other commenters or topic or thread or ideas.
I think a concept of ‘troll’ must be essentially tied to a serious long sustained attempt, over many threads and months, to maliciously and intentionally destroy the whole venue’s capability to function (and thus also destroy the ability of a blog owner to lead). Where ‘serious’ means based on a very long term chain of commentary evidence showing beyond reasonable doubt that there are intentional occurrences of an attempt at destruction of the capability of the blog to function or of the owner to lead.
So, you see for me the ‘troll’ name-calling should be withheld from the way most WUWT commenters are using it.
John
Anthony Watts & al:
John Whitman rather writes autenic sense here.
Troll is a scandinavian word an conscept. The Swedes have it, and H.C.Andersen has also mentioned it. The Germans call it “Riese” but todays modern English conscept is rather “a monster”. But Trolls may also be small.
Those “garden variety trolls” are not trolls , although related a bit. But it is false use of the conscept. They are “Gartenzwerge” in Germany and rather “Gnome” in Norwegian and not ugly.
I checkede up and it shows that Rather Paracelsus seems to have invented them, or rather given them a psevdo- latin name meaning the underground fairies. Paracelsus was Swiss.
Proper traditional action and medicine against Trolls is quite important.
If you are able to find out or guess and tell its name, the Troll looses its power. And further, when day comes and the sun goes up and the dark and grey fogs vanish, it shows that what was believed to be trolls is nothing but quite common mosses and huge boulders and old rotten wood in the landscape, quite common and natural things and nothing to fear at all.
Proper daylight over it you see, does change a lot of things.
A person with an all too big “Aura” (if you know what I mean) , can be called “a Troll”. That means a person who takes up all too much place for his privacies and all too much attension, in common room and area..
Thus, John Withman rather gets to the point.
You rather ought to know of and to cooperate with the “Gnome”.
In the garden, you should not harvest fruits and berries too clean , but leave a bit “hanging for the Gnome” i. e for Nature to consume. And not least because what you let hanging further, will tell you a lot both of weather and of climate and of birds and of microbes, and how things may seed out naturally.
Buying plastic models and replica of them from the industrial gardening center shops however, and to put that out for worship in the garden…..,…..
is violence to the 10 commandments §2 and quite sinful.
– – – – – – – – – –
Carbomontanus,
I liked your discussion of trolls in the blog interpreted via troll and gnome mythology / folklore. I am a long term fan of Joseph Campbell’s many works on mythology and I think folklore is related to it.
So, a question. Are trolls in mythology and folklore only malicious (intending harm and ill fortune)? Are there, by definition, any kindly and helpful trolls?
I have a comment on your discussion of beneficial and nice looking gnomes as distinguished from ugly and bad behaving trolls. You might be suggesting we consider treating respectfully (like gnomes are in myth and folklore) most of the commenters who have been previously called trolls by other commenters. If that is what you are suggesting, then I agree we should treat them with respect . . . . stop the name-calling.
John
When I hear “Michael Mann”, I reflexively think “Piltdown”. (2.0)
When I looked up the Wikipedia entry on “trolls” I discovered that this word in its recent new meaning in the context of blogs, has no clear etymology. The term might derive from Scandinavian goblins, or from the fishing technology of trolling. What I want to know, arising from Carbomontanus’s very interesting but somewhat puzzling comment, is what the heck is a “pile”?
David Sanger (@davidsanger) says:
“Gary Pearce, Anthony, yes indeed it certainly does seem Moore and Greenpeace parted ways quite a while ago”
That is quite noble of you, both refusing to admit that Moore is properly named a “founder of Greenpeace” and refusing to acknowledge the considerable evidence that GP has attempted to scrub its own history for political purposes.
@vigiliantfish
Now you are lucky that I have J.Brynhildsen Norsk->engelsk ordbog Kristiania 1917 measuring 2″ x 8″ x 5″ on hand,
so let us see:
“Lja = er. Mindre godt f. ljaa.
Ljaa = er scytche; manden med =er fig the old man with the scytche, the old reaper.”
Is that clear?
@John Whiteman
I have a very personal and autentic relation to trolls, thus able to tell about them.
However, this must be taken by all neccesary scepsis and grains of salt, i. e seen also at daylight.
They showed up in my night dreams as early as I can remember and were very huge and ugly. They were mentioned and descibed in the fairy tales and mentioned on the radio for children.
The standard 1st story or fairy tale for children inauguration is ” De 3 Bukkene Bruse som skulle til seters og gjøre seg fete” Maybe we can find it on the net.
= 3 bucks “brousing” going to “Seters” = Sumarsæte = Somerset to make themselves fat. On their way they had to walk over a bridge and under that bridge there was a huge and ugly …. troll.
First came the smallest Bukkene Bruse tripp tripp tripp tripp over the bridge. “NOW I COME AND TAKE YOU!” said the troll. . Oh no, don`t take me. Soon comes the middle Bukkene Bruse, he is much larger and fatter than i. Yes OK said the Troll.
and then the 2nd Bukkene Bruse Tripp Trapp Tripp Trapp over the bridge
…..
but then the large Bukkene Bruse TRAMP! TRAMP TRAMP TRAMP! over the bridge
“NOW I COME AND TAKE YOU said the troll
“Yes, just you come. I hav 2 large spears, With them I skall sing your eyes out. And I have 2 large stones, With them I shall crush both your marrow and bones.
The troll came up and thus it went. He was thown back in the rushing river again quite molested.
And they all went to Sumarsæte / Somerset, and got so fat, that if the fat has not got off them yet, they still have it. & Snipp Snapp Snute , the fairytale is out.
I can tell you it is dramatic. on “NOW I COME AN TAKE YOU::”They scream, so you must tell them exactly by words how it goes. Then they breathe out. And then they call together all the other children and play puppet theater with it.
It is the very basics of Alchemy to be told when they are about 3 years old.
The trolls are first huge and dark and foggy , then they become smaller and more distinct as you grow up and learn how to manage. It shows more and more that they are rather quite blunt and stupid and can be tackled and cheated.
And then you can put them on museum.
The best I have found elsewhere in litterature is Carl Gustav Jungs description of “The unconscious” and of “The shadow..”
In recent time I have found litterature and comic strips for children where the trolls may be rather indifferent and even kind. But that is not at all my idea, so one must ask the authors about it.
For that kind of entities, I would rather have used and referred to other archetyps like the huge and small animal gods and figures and principles, after which you even name your children Cfr Bjørn, Arne, Ulf, Leo, Felix, Hrafn (raven) and Eberhardt the boar and Wolfgang. Høykur Hawk, I heard from Island.
Girls are rather named after flower archetypes. Nothing of this entails that they are Trolls. If children are trolls, which they often may be, it is to be corrected for bad behaviours and spirits.
But it is for having a necessary arsenal of angels and of devils and of gods. But those are not trolls.
A “Psychopat” (allthough many definitions) is a troll.
Good greef
Pile,… a pile of hey,..= såte,
I have confused that with Ljå and the scytch.
Thus it comes when people are unclear when telling it to me in English….
To all and everyone including Anthony Watts & excluding Moderator
Yes really
Http:/ The Billy Goats Gruff
on English Wikipedia
Is compulsary.
[Miffed, the now-excluded moderator will point out your atrocious spelling error of “compulsory” to the rest of the world at large. 8<) Mod]
I hope that Mark Steyn has someone following Mann on Twitter. Mann is so prolific on Twitter some of his tweets can surely be used against him.
I think that “trolling” on the “net” refers to fishing, trolling with a line, so to speak, in order to
catch fish from a boat, quietly. In this case the trollers are attempting to lure comments and
commenters in their direction, or as the Scots say, winding them up. Not the same as those
garden statues, but at least as ugly, if not more so…
@jdgalt al.
I see it the quite other way around. The STALIN- lysenko type of procedure by popular folklore and Quacky propaganda at the imperial court and for the people through the imperial and progressive Prasvda mass media, is most characteristic of the climate and the science denlial moovement. That also rather rides instructions by a political vote and decision behind closed doors of what “The science” is going to find out and to sustain.
Manns “hockeystick” work has later been q1uite solidly sustained by its essence and principle by up to ten other and independent works by other institutes and on other temperature indicators, by systematically independent empirical methods.
Going on fighting that “hockeystick” is truly hopeless. It is rather nothing but silly imperial manners for open scene on the free market, proudly with ones nose and ones cravatte up to the sky having forgotten ones own bottoms and necessary suspenders.
“up to ten other and independent works by other institutes and on other temperature indicators, by systematically independent empirical methods.” It is common language to speak of the ten commandments, but not “up to ten”. You ought to be capable of precisely telling us the number and correct titles so that the reader may find out for himself if your description matches. Thank you.
@JMVanWinkle: Best ignored, yes. Forgotten? Then it will just continue to happen again. Mann needs to be taught in history right alongside Lysenko. Let him continue to be famous, just not in the way he wanted.
Maybe if we do the job well enough, the next con man will target some other field than science. But to get the corruption out of our institutions, we must first get the taxpayers’ money out. Ayn Rand predicted all this sixty years ago.
Carbomontanus is a Norwegian “Troll” that spends his time running around in circles making sounds and waving his arms.
No. miss Baby
I have only told you all that going out on the free market hand in hand shoulder by shoulder all talking with one voice against a Mann with a scytch
is silly.
You will all end up in a “pile” for consumption, maybe even for ensilation.
He is allready having the US supreme court on his side.
You have called for a decision of misbehaviours and that decision is allready taken.
I have absolutely no problems with him because I am elementary aquainted to the methods, thus able to judge the validity and quality of his work.
Mob- behaviours like that is what we call Troll. You are unconscious and looking at
yourself in a troll- mirror
Al Gore I would like to take and brush over a bit and teach him both Manners, Science, and Theology; Michael Mann however, is not problematic at all. He has delivered very good work and he is probably on museum allready. There are quite other things to be furthered and discussed now.
Rajendra Pachauri has rather given the formula for further:: Never go into clinch with KALI, she wins.