While some model based claims say that CO2 residence times may be thousands of years, a global experiment in measurable CO2 residence time seems to have already been done for us.
By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
Is the ~10-year airborne half-life of 14CO2 demonstrated by the bomb-test curve (Fig. 1, and see Professor Gösta Pettersson’s post) the same variable as the IPCC’s residence time of 50-200 years? If so, does its value make any difference over time to the atmospheric concentration of CO2 and hence to any consequent global warming?
Figure 1. The decay curve of atmospheric 14C following the ending of nuclear bomb tests in 1963, assembled from European records by Gösta Pettersson.
The program of nuclear bomb tests that ended in 1963 doubled the atmospheric concentration of 14CO2 compared with its cosmogenic baseline. However, when the tests stopped half the 14C left the atmosphere in ten years. Almost all had gone after 50 years. Why should not the other isotopes of CO2 disappear just as rapidly?
Mr. Born, in comments on my last posting, says the residence time of CO2 has no bearing on its atmospheric concentration: “It’s not an issue of which carbon isotopes we’re talking about. The issue is the difference between CO2 concentration and residence time in the atmosphere of a typical CO2 molecule, of whatever isotope. The bomb tests, which tagged some CO2 molecules, showed us the latter, and I have no reason to believe that the residence time of any other isotope would be much different.”
He goes on to assert that CO2 concentration is independent of the residence time, thus:
The total mass m of airborne CO2 equals the combined mass m12 of 12,13CO2 plus the mass m14 of 14CO2 (1):
Let CO2 be emitted to the atmosphere from all sources at a rate e = e12 + e14 and removed by uptake at a rate u. Then the rate of change in CO2 mass over time is given by
which says the total mass m of CO2, and thus its concentration, varies as the net emission, which is the difference between source e and sink u rates.
For example, if e = u, the total mass m remains unchanged even if few individual molecules remain airborne for long. Also, where e > u, m will rise unless and until u = e. Also, unless thereafter u > e, he thinks the mass m will remain elevated indefinitely. By contrast, he says, the rate of change in 14CO2 mass is given by
which, he says, tells us that, even if e were to remain equal to u, so that total CO2 concentration remained constant, the excess 14CO2 concentration
which is the difference between the (initially elevated) 14CO2 concentration and the prior cosmogenic baseline 14CO2 concentration, would still decay with a time constant m/u, which, therefore, tells us nothing about how long total CO2 concentration would remain at some higher level to which previously-elevated emissions might have raised it. In this scenario, for example, the concentration remains elevated forever even though x decays. Mr. Born concludes that the decay rate of x tells us the turnover rate of CO2 in the air but does not tell us how fast the uptake rate u will adjust to increased emissions.
On the other hand, summarizing Professor Pettersson, reversible reactions tend towards an equilibrium defined by a constant k. Emission into a reservoir perturbs the equilibrium, whereupon relaxation drains the excess x from the reservoir, re-establishing equilibrium over time. Where µ is the rate-constant of decay, which is the reciprocal of the relaxation time, (5) gives the fraction ft of x that remains in the reservoir at any time t, where e, here uniquely, is exp(1):
The IPCC’s current estimates (fig. 2) of the pre-industrial baseline contents of the carbon reservoirs are 600 PgC in the atmosphere, 2000 PgC in the biosphere, and 38,000 PgC in the hydrosphere. Accordingly the equilibrium constant k, equivalent to the baseline pre-industrial ratio of atmospheric to biosphere and hydrosphere carbon reservoirs, is 600 / (2000 + 38,000), or 0.015, so that 1.5% of any excess x that Man or Nature adds to the atmosphere will remain airborne indefinitely.
Empirically, Petterson finds the value of the rate-constant of decay µ to be ~0.07, giving a relaxation time µ–1 of ~14 years and yielding the red curve fitted to the data in Fig. 1. Annual values of the remaining airborne fraction ft of the excess x, determined by me by way of (5), are at Table 1.
Figure 2. The global carbon cycle. Numbers represent reservoir sizes in PgC, and carbon exchange fluxes in PgC yr–1. Dark blue numbers and arrows indicate estimated pre-industrial reservoir sizes and natural fluxes. Red arrows and numbers indicate fluxes averaged over 2000–2009 arising from CO2 emissions from fossil fuel combustion, cement production and land-use change. Red numbers in the reservoirs denote cumulative industrial-era changes from 1750–2011. Source: IPCC (2013), Fig. 6.1.
| t = 1 | .932 | .869 | .810 | .755 | .704 | .657 | .612 | .571 | .533 | .497 |
| 11 | .464 | .433 | .404 | .377 | .362 | .329 | .307 | .287 | .268 | .251 |
| 21 | .235 | .219 | .205 | .192 | .180 | .169 | .158 | .148 | .139 | .130 |
| 31 | .122 | .115 | .108 | .102 | .096 | .090 | .085 | .080 | .076 | .071 |
| 41 | .067 | .064 | .060 | .057 | .054 | .052 | .049 | .047 | .045 | .042 |
| 51 | .041 | .039 | .037 | .036 | .034 | .033 | .032 | .030 | .029 | .028 |
| 61 | .027 | .027 | .026 | .026 | .024 | .024 | .023 | .022 | .022 | .021 |
| 71 | .021 | .021 | .020 | .020 | .019 | .019 | .019 | .019 | .018 | .018 |
| 81 | .018 | .018 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .016 | .016 |
| 91 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 |
| 101 | .016 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 |
| 111 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 |
Table 1. Annual fractions ft of the excess x of 14CO2 remaining airborne in a given year t following the bomb-test curve determined via (5), showing the residential half-life of airborne 14C to be ~10 years. As expected, the annual fractions decay after 100 years to a minimum 1.5% above the pre-existing cosmogenic baseline.
Now, it is at once evident that Professor Pettersson’s analysis differs from that of the IPCC, and from that of Mr. Born, in several respects. Who is right?
Mr. Born offers an elegantly-expressed analogy:
“Consider a source emitting 1 L min–1 of a fluid F1 into a reservoir that already contains 15.53 L of F1, while a sink is simultaneously taking up 1 L min–1 of the reservoir’s contents. The contents remain at a steady 15.53 L.
“Now change the source to a different fluid F2, still supplied at 1 L min–1 and miscible ideally with F1 as well as sharing its density and flow characteristics. After 50 minutes, 96% of F1 will have left the reservoir, but the reservoir will still contain 15.53 L.
“Next, instantaneously inject an additional 1 L bolus of F2, raising the reservoir’s contents to 16.53 L. What does that 96% drop in 50 minutes that was previously observed reveal about how rapidly the volume of fluid in the reservoir will change thereafter from 16.53 L? I don’t think it tells us anything. It is the difference between source and sink rates that tells us how fast the volume of fluid in the reservoir will change. The rate, observed above, at which the contents turn over does not tell us that.
“The conceptual problem may arise from the fact that the 14C injection sounds as though it parallels the second operation above: it was, I guess, adding a slug of CO2 over and above pre-existing sources. But – correct me if I’m wrong – that added amount was essentially infinitesimal: it made no detectable change in the CO2 concentration, so in essence it merely changed the isotopic composition of that concentration, not the concentration itself. Therefore, the 14C injection parallels the first step above, while Man’s recent CO2 emissions parallel the second step.”
However, like all analogies, by definition this one breaks down at some point.
Figure 3. Comparison between the decay curves of the remaining airborne fraction ft of the excess x of CO2 across the interval t on [1, 100] years.
As Fig. 3 shows, the equilibrium constant k, the fraction of total excess concentration x that remains airborne indefinitely, has – if it is large enough – a major influence on the rate of decay. At the k = 0.15 determined by Professor Pettersson as the baseline pre-industrial ratio of the contents of the atmospheric to the combined biosphere and hydrosphere carbon reservoirs, the decay curve is close to a standard exponential-decay curve, such that, in (5), k = 0. However, at the 0.217 that is assumed in the Bern climate model, on which all other models rely, the course of the decay curve is markedly altered by the unjustifiably elevated equilibrium constant.
On this ground alone, one would expect CO2 to linger more briefly in the atmosphere than the Bern model and the models dependent upon it assume. To use Mr. Born’s own analogy, if any given quantum of fluid poured into a container remains there for less time than it otherwise would have done (in short, if it finds its way more quickly out of the container than the fixed rate of exit that his analogy implausibly assumes), then, ceteris paribus, there will be less fluid in the container.
Unlike the behavior of the contents of the reservoir described in Mr. Born’s analogy, the fraction of the excess remaining airborne at the end of the decay curve will be independent of the emission rate e and the uptake rate u.
Since the analogy breaks down at the end of the process and, therefore, to some degree throughout it, does it also break down on the question whether the rate of change in the contents of the reservoir is, as Mr. Born maintains in opposition to what Pettersson shows in (5), absolutely described by e – u?
Let us cite Skeptical Science as what the sociologists call a “negative reference group” – an outfit that is trustworthy only in that it is usually wrong about just about everything. The schoolboys at the University of Queensland, which ought really to be ashamed of them, feared Professor Murry Salby’s assertion that temperature change, not Man, is the prime determinant of CO2 concentration change.
They sought to dismiss his idea in their customarily malevolent fashion by sneering that the change in CO2 concentration was equal to the sum of anthropogenic and natural emissions and uptakes. Since there is no anthropogenic uptake to speak of, they contrived the following rinky-dink equationette:
The kiddiwinks say CO2 concentration change is equal to the sum of anthropogenic and natural emissions less the natural uptake. They add that we can measure CO2 concentration growth (equal to net emission) each year, and we can reliably deduce the anthropogenic emission from the global annual fossil-fuel consumption inventories. Rearranging (6):
They say that, since observed ea ≈ 2ΔCO2, the natural world on the left-hand side of (7) is perforce a net CO2 sink, not a net source as they thought Professor Salby had concluded. Yet his case, here as elsewhere, was subtler than they would comprehend.
Professor Salby, having shown by careful cross-correlations on all timescales, even short ones (Fig. 4, left), that CO2 concentration change lags temperature change, demonstrated that in the Mauna Loa record, if one examines it at a higher resolution than what is usually displayed (Fig. 4, right), there is a variation of up to 3 µatm from year to year in the annual CO2 concentration increment (which equals net emission).
Figure 4. Left: CO2 change lags and may be caused by temperature change. Right: The mean annual CO2 increment is 1.5 µatm, but the year-on-year variability is twice that.
The annual changes in anthropogenic CO2 emission are nothing like 3 µatm (Fig. 5, left). However, Professor Salby has detected – and, I think, may have been the first to observe – that the annual fluctuations in the CO2 concentration increment are very closely correlated with annual fluctuations in surface conditions (Fig. 5, right).
Figure 5. Left: global annual anthropogenic CO2 emissions rise near-monotonically and the annual differences are small. Right: an index of surface conditions (blue: 80% temperature change, 20% soil-moisture content) is closely correlated with fluctuations in CO2 concentration (green).
Annual fluctuations of anthropogenic CO2 emissions are small, but those of atmospheric CO2 concentration are very much larger, from which Professor Salby infers that their major cause is not Man but Nature, via changes in temperature. For instance, Henry’s Law holds that a cooler ocean can take up more CO2.
In that thought, perhaps, lies the reconciliation of the Born and Pettersson viewpoints. For the sources and sinks of CO2 are not static, as Mr. Born’s equations (1-4) and analogy assume, but dynamic. Increase the CO2 concentration and the biosphere responds with an observed global increase in net plant productivity. The planet gets greener as trees and plants gobble up the plant food we emit for them.
Similarly, if the weather gets a great deal warmer, as it briefly did during the Great el Niño of 1997/8, outgassing from the ocean will briefly double the annual net CO2 emission. But if it gets a great deal cooler, as it did in 1991/2 following the eruption of Pinatubo, net annual accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere falls to little more than zero notwithstanding our emissions. It is possible, then, that as the world cools in response to the continuing decline in solar activity the ocean sink may take up more CO2 than we emit, even if we do not reduce our emissions.
Interestingly, several groups are working on demonstrating that, just as Professor Salby can explain recent fluctuations in Co2 concentration as a function of the time-integral of temperature change, in turn temperature change can be explained as a function of the time-integral of variations in solar activity. It’s the Sun, stupid!
It is trivially true that we are adding newly-liberated CO2 to the atmosphere every year, in contrast to the 14C pulse that ended in 1963 with the bomb tests. However, the bomb-test curve does show that just about all CO2 molecules conveniently marked with one or two extra neutrons in their nuclei will nearly all have come out of the atmosphere within 50 years.
To look at it another way, if we stopped adding CO2 to the atmosphere today, the excess remaining in the atmosphere after 100 years would be 1.5% of whatever we have added, and that is all. What is more, that value is not only theoretically derivable as the ratio of the contents of the atmospheric carbon reservoir to those of the combined active reservoirs of the hydrosphere and biosphere but also empirically consistent with the observed bomb-test curve (Fig. 1).
If the IPCC were right, though, the 50-200yr residence time of CO2 that it imagines would imply much-elevated concentrations for another century or two, for otherwise, it would not bother to make such an issue of the residence time. For the residence time of CO2 in the atmosphere does make a difference to future concentration levels.
To do a reductio ad absurdum in the opposite direction, suppose every molecule of CO2 we emitted persisted in the atmosphere only for a fraction of a second, then the influence of anthropogenic CO2 on global temperature would be negligible, and changes in CO2 concentration would be near-entirely dependent upon natural influences.
Atmospheric CO2 concentration is already accumulating in the atmosphere at less than half the rate at which we emit it. Half of all the CO2 we emit does indeed appear to vanish instantly from the atmosphere. This still-unexplained discrepancy, which the IPCC in its less dishonest days used to call the “missing sink”, is more or less exactly accounted for where, as Professor Pettersson suggests, CO2’s atmospheric residence time is indeed as short as the bomb-test curve suggests it is and not as long as the 50-200 years imagined by the IPCC.
And what does IPeCaC have to say about the bomb-test curve? Not a lot:
“Because fossil fuel CO2 is devoid of radiocarbon (14C), reconstructions of the 14C/C isotopic ratio of atmospheric CO2 from tree rings show a declining trend (Levin et al., 2010; Stuiver and Quay, 1981) prior to the massive addition of 14C in the atmosphere by nuclear weapon tests which has been offsetting that declining trend signal.”
And that is just about all They have to say about it.
Has Professor Pettersson provided the mechanism that explains why Professor Salby is right? If the work of these two seekers after truth proves meritorious, then that is the end of the global warming scare.
As Professor Lindzen commented when Professor Salby first told him of his results three years ago, since a given CO2 excess causes only a third of the warming the IPCC imagines, if not much more than half of that excess of CO2 is anthropogenic, and if it spends significantly less time in the atmosphere than the models imagine, there is nowhere for the climate extremists to go. Every component of their contrived theory will have been smashed.
It is because the consequences of this research are so potentially important that I have set out an account of the issue here at some length. It is not for a fumblesome layman such as me to say whether Professor Pettersson and Professor Salby (the latter supported by Professor Lindzen) are right. Or is Mr. Born right?
Quid vobis videtur?
Related articles
- Why and How the IPCC Demonized CO2 with Manufactured Information (wattsupwiththat.com)
“Janice Moore says:
November 21, 2013 at 10:08 pm”
And soon we hope, since Professor Salby has been on a lecture tour of Britain recently, and spoke to some “non-scientific” audiences, thus putting these matters into a possibly better frame of understanding for the layperson. Accordingly we may hope to see a recording of one of these recent lectures, soon to be released on video.
“They also serve who only stand and wait.” – John Milton
Jquip says:
November 21, 2013 at 5:56 pm`
That there is very little 14CO2 being returned from the ocean is the ideal condition.
In this case it is a disturance, because you are looking at a ratio: the ratio is going much faster down than the total count, giving the false impression that the decay rate is much faster than it is in reality…
Sorry, Lord Monckton, but the 10-year residence time of carbon-14 is clearly not the same quantity as the “residence time” of CO2 i.e. the timescale at which the excess concentration of CO2 decreases.
The carbon-14 decreases this quickly because there are many “carbon-neutral” processes in which the carbon-14 is absorbed by the oceans or the biosphere and replaced by carbon-12. Even if the CO2 in the atmosphere were not decreasing at all (assuming we stop emissions), it would still circulate and the relative concentration of carbon-14 at all places would tend to converge to a uniform fraction. The timescale needed for the homogenization of the isotopes is clearly shorter than the timescale needed to reduce the overall CO2 which actually depends on excess uptake.
It’s trivial to see that the residence time of CO2 is of order 30 years or longer. We emit 4 ppm worth of CO2 a year; the CO2 concentration increases by 2 ppm per year. So it’s clear that the “excess uptake” (which is natural and depends on the elevated CO2 relatively to the equilibrium) is also 2 ppm pear year. The excess CO2 above the equilibrium value for our temperature- which is still around 280 ppm – is about 120 ppm so one needs about 30 years to halve the excess CO2 and 50 years to divide it by e.
Janice Moore: ” I just have grown tired over the past 6 months of reading so many lukewarm, tentative, ‘Well, …. maybe he has a point….. hm…. I just don’t know……. why doesn’t he get it published in a peer reviewed periodical? ‘”
I’m no more informed than you, but, if my understanding is correct, the complete code and data aren’t out there. Absent that, serious students would not be able to resolve dispel the ambiguities in his talk. (I don’t recall what I found ambiguous, but, even if I hadn’t listened to the talk, my experience with doping out technical disclosures would make me pretty sure they exist.)
Mike Jonas says:
November 21, 2013 at 5:58 pm
The absorption of CO2 into the deep ocean is basically a 2-stage process. Ocean-atmosphere CO2 imbalance, such as is caused by man-made CO2 emissions, has a half-life of about 13 years, as any excess atmospheric CO2 is taken up by the ocean surface layer fairly quickly.
The deep ocean exchanges largely bypass the ocean surface as well as at the downwelling as at the upwelling sites. For a large part there is very little diffusion of CO2 (and other stuff and temperature) between the ocean surface and the deep oceans.
If Ferdinand is indeed correct, then you must also be correct in arguing that it implies that Carbon bearing molecules exclude Carbon Dioxide from the water.
Henry’s law simply says how much free CO2 is in water for a given pressure in the atmosphere, independent of other carbon species in solution.
the Revelle factor shows the increase of total carbon, that is free CO2+ bicaronate + carbonate in solution for a change of CO2 in the atmosphere.
In fresh water, there is practically no increase in carbonate and bicarbonate, while in seawater, a large part of the extra CO2 entering the solution is transformed into other carbon species. The Revelle factor shows how much more. See:
http://www.eng.warwick.ac.uk/staff/gpk/Teaching-undergrad/es427/Exam%200405%20Revision/Ocean-chemistry.pdf
While it is 10 times more than for fresh water, it is only 10% of the changes in the atmosphere…
A side point about which I would welcome any enlightenment: On another thread, Dr. Brown raised the point that the Bern equation appeared nonsensical on its face if, as it is advertised, it’s supposed to be an impulse response to emissions only. We know that natural emissions are greater than those from burning fossil fuels but that they are largely canceled out by uptake. But, if you ignore uptake, the Bern impulse response, which has a constant, a0 term would imply that concentration grows to infinity in response to a more or less constant emissions rate.
I’m sure there’s a simple answer that a reader here knows, and I’d be grateful to hear it.
DocMartyn says:
November 21, 2013 at 6:44 pm
Ferdinand Engelbeen, please note that CO2/DIC at the surface of the ocean is denuded, with respect to 5m down, due to biotic photosynthesis.
Pretending that the surface is in ‘equilibrium’, with respect to CO2 and O2, is a dumb mistake. just LOOK at the data for the composition of biotic gasses and DIC in actual sea water.
Biological processes indeed play an important role in the CO2 exchanges and reduce pCO2 (and increase δ13C) of the surface waters. But that doesn’t play much role in the change of DIC and pCO2 over time: CO2/bi/carbonate levels are not the restricting factor for sea life, the lack of nutritients is. pCO2/DIC/pH of the surace waters simply follows the change in the atmosphere as can be seen in the near 30 year series of the North Atlantic gyre at Bermuda:
http://www.biogeosciences.net/9/2509/2012/bg-9-2509-2012.pdf
Lord Monckton writes “Since there is no anthropogenic uptake to speak of, they contrived the following rinky-dink equationette:” I should just point out that this is actually just the same “equationette” that Prof. Salby presented in his Sydney Institute talk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YrI03ts–9I) at 8:58. The only difference is that the sum of all sources has been broken up into two terms, representing anthropogenic sources and natural sources.
Also as others have pointed out, the IPCC do not claim that residence time is 50-200 years and indeed if you actually read the report you will find they take care to explain the difference between residence (turnover) and adjustment times. This claim is widely made on climate blogs, but that doesn’t make it true, and one wonders how it persists, given that it is so easily shown to be wrong (e.g. look up “lifetime” in the glossary of the AR4 WG1 report).
The residence time argument was put forward by Prof Robert Essenhigh in the journal Energy and Fuels, who also published my paper (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ef200914u) explaining the flaws in Prof. Essenhigh’s conclusion (his estimate of residence time is essentially correct and uncontraversial but it is adjustment time that is relevant to the long term increase in CO2, not the residence time).
The mathematical flaw in Salby’s correllation analysis is explained here http://www.skepticalscience.com/salby_correlation_conundrum.html . Salby is not by any means the first to notice or explain this correllation, it was first reported by Bacastow back in 1975.
Lastly, I recommend people read this article by noted climate skeptic Fred Singer, who points out that the use of arguments on this topic only serves to bring the skeptic side of the climate debate into disrepute (although I wouldn’t use the particular term that he used). The article is called “Climate deniers are giving us skeptics a bad name” and can be found here:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/02/climate_deniers_are_giving_us_skeptics_a_bad_name.html
*dikranmarsupial* commented on On CO2 residence times: The chicken or the egg? .
Good comments.
I was thinking of the residence time vs adjustment time: if we think of Carbon-14 as a poisonous substance we dump into a pool of water in a very small, closed system, from which we get our drinking water it is easier to understand. The pool is poisonous, but as time goes the water goes into the acquifer, comes out again elsewhere, precipitates and runs down the hill to the pool and replenishes what was lost. The “residence” time in this case is infinite, but the “adjustment” time to get to equilibrium reflects the movement of the whole system. Also, the final poison concentration (equilibrium) is determined not by the initial concentration in the pool but by the total amount of poison and the total amount of water in the system.
So with Carbon-14, equilibrium is reached when what is going out is equal to what is coming back in. The size of all the carbon-12 and carbon-14 in the system determines the final concentration. If we can make the assumption that there is no chemical or electrical or biological system that prefers to hold (or release) Carbon-14, then the final equilibrium concentration allows us to calculate the entire carbon reservoir involved.
(What we need to know is the total, original concentration of carbon-14 put into the atmosphere. We could make an estimate at peak measurement, and then simply use that as a fixed “known”, even if the number is actually off, if what we are looking for are numbers either in the 50 or 500 year size. The error won’t matter with accuracy of that level.)
Since we have been significantly increasing the carbon content of the atmosphere since nuclear testing ended, the adjustment time will appear faster than actual, i.e. we have increased the atmospheric portion of the carbon reservoir. So both the adjustment time and the equilibrium concentrations need to be corrected for this.
The noted winter-summer change in CO2 noted at Mauna Loa is very interesting in that it says the world “breathes” CO2, but is this biological or temperature? The change is obviously Northern Hemispheric dominated, but is it the lower temperatures of winter that cause absorption of CO2 into cold water, or the biological decomposition during the summer that increases the CO2 – because biological plant activity should decrease, not increase atmospheric content? Previous studies show planckton growth in the Antarctic Ocean and English Channel (the articles I have read) determine the CO2 content above those waters. Or is it “obvious”? Is the change actually reversed, and controlled by the biologic activity of the Southern hemisphere, which absorbs CO2 in their summer (our winter) and releases it in their winter (our summer) when decomposition exceeds “composition”?
Bottom line: I think Monckton is wrong about residence time vs adjustment time, as you note. But perhaps we can use the Carbon-14 values to estimate the total carbon budget in the cycle (as a multiple of atmosphere only?) and then work our way towards residence time.
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:29 AM, Watts Up With That? wrote:
> dikranmarsupial commented: “Lord Monckton writes “Since there is no > anthropogenic uptake to speak of, they contrived the following rinky-dink > equationette:” I should just point out that this is actually just the same > “equationette” that Prof. Salby presented in his Sydney Institute ” >
Mike Smith says:
November 21, 2013 at 8:20 pm
The CO2 exchange between the atmosphere and the hydrosphere all takes place at the interface, not in the deep oceans. Following the sudden increases in atmospheric C14, some of those molecules will quickly be absorbed by the ocean surface. And some of them will be given up again to the atmosphere.
Yes and no: the deep ocean-atmosphere exchange largely bypasses most of the ocean surface: the main sink place in the NE Atlantic gobbles a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere: the pCO2 pressure of seawater there is pretty low at around 150 μatm, while the atmosphere is at 400 μatm, thus pushing a lot of CO2 directly in the oceans:
http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/pubs/outstand/feel2331/exchange.shtml
The polar waters there are directly sinking into the deep oceans. They return hundreds of years later at the West coast of South America, mostly directly upwelling, to the joy of the fishermen there…
The ocean surface indeed is in quick equilibrium with the atmosphere, but that has a limited capacity: only 10% of the change in the atmosphere will show up in the ocean surface layer, due to the Revelle factor. That is as good the case for 14CO2 as for 12CO2. The 90% must go elsewhere:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/14co2_distri_2000.jpg
Bart says:
November 21, 2013 at 6:05 pm
No exceptions. The CO2 sinks all respond dynamically to increase or decrease in partial pressure.
Taking the 150 GtC/yr exchange rate for granted for the dynamic equilibrium state, the current net input-output difference is ~4.5 GtC/yr for an extra 230 GtC (100 ppmv) above equilibrium. Or an increase of 3% hardly a change.
If – as you prefer – the exchange rates increased a threefold over the period 1960-2010 (or a sevenfold if only caused by increased deep ocean exchanges) to explain the increase in the atmosphere without human emissions, then the decrease rate of 14CO2 in the atmosphere would have been increased a threefold (or sevenfold) over the same period too. Of which there is not the slightest sign…
ferdberple says:
November 21, 2013 at 10:02 pm
it seems unlikely to be a fluke. the absorption has remained constant at 1/2 of human emissions for as long as they have been reporting, while the percentage absorption of CO2 above 280 ppm has not remained constant.
It is just coincidence, caused by the fact that human emissions are increasing slightly quadratic over time, which makes the increase in the atmosphere also slightly quadratic and therefore the sinks also slightly quadratic increasing over time. That leads to a astonishing fixed ratio between human emissions and “airborne fraction”:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/temp_emiss_increase.jpg
If human emissions stay equal or are reduced, the ratio will change accordingly…
Wrong model.
The “single” residence time is applicable to the first order differential equation only.
CO2 is described by higher order differential equations and has several “residence times” depending on the way it is emitted.
The bomb explosion leads to a fast decay of emitted CO2.
A slow emission excites a long living CO2-mode.
Just take a simple second order equation (overdamped harmonic oscillator).
It has two exponentially decaying solutions. One decays fast, another one decays slower. Which solution you hit, depends on the way you excite it.
As far as I remember, IPCC counts 7 CO2 modes leading to 7 decay times.
One of the decay times is indeed very fast, about 5 years.
But there are other modes with much slower decay times.
It is a remarkable indication of the intelligent interest that Anthony’s readers take in understanding the science of climate change that so many should have replied in such interesting detail to my posting on the lifetime of CO2 in the atmosphere and its implications for future global warming.
George E. Smith rightly points out that I ought to have mentioned the isotopic decay rate of 14CO2, which is 5730 years. As he also rightly says, this is too long a decay rate to have any relevance to present calculations. In fact, the decay rate is approximately equal to the source ate from cosmic rays, which is why atmospheric 14C had been near-constant until the bomb tests.
“Pippen Kool”, supported by DocMartyn and M. Courtney, says that 14C is being “diluted into the fixed carbon”, asserting, without evidence, that “the other isotopes are in equilibrium” (with what, it is not made clear), and that they “won’t diminish”. Well, they have diminished, in the active reservoirs with which we are concerned. In the Neoproterozoic, 750 million years ago, there was at least 30% CO2 in the atmosphere. Today it is 0.04%. It is not merely the 14C/12C ratio but the absolute quantity of 14C that has declined.
Mr. Engelbeen, supported by Mr. Jonas, Edb and Lubos Motl, says 14C diminishes many times faster than 12C, on the ground that there are many carbon-neutal processes by which the hydrosphere and biosphere take up 14C and replace it with 12C. The oceans take up 14C at high latitudes, where it sinks to the ocean floor, not to emerge again for 1000 years, while the 12C that sank to the ocean floor 1000 years ago is emerging today in the tropics. However, since we are unable to measure these natural fluxes, the effect that this has on the residence time of 12C is guesswork, while the residence time of 14C, the only isotope whose decay we can reliably measure, is definitely short. Mr. Motl argues that because today’s CO2 concentration is 120 ppmv above the 280 ppmv pre-industrial baseline the airborne half-life of CO2 is about 30 years and the e-folding time is 50 years. If it were as simple as that, Professor Pettersson would not have written his book, and Professor Salby would not have endured dismissal from his university.
Sisi says the bombs increased the concentration of 14C in the atmosphere but hardly in the hydrosphere or biosphere. Well, they must have increased it in the hydrosphere and biosphere, because that is where 96% of it must have gone once it left the atmosphere. Sisi also says, “If Lord Monckton is so sure of his story, why does it end with a question mark?” The reason, clearly stated in the head posting, is that contradictory schools of thought were evident and I was not sure which was true, so I gave an account of both and asked what people thought. Sisi complains that the language was “obtuse”. Perhaps a course in mathematics would be of benefit to Sisi in understanding mathematical posts.
Ian W says the biosphere CO2 sink may be working still faster now, thanks to atmospheric CO2 enrichment and the consequent observed global increase in net plant productivity, than at the time of the bomb tests. However, as other commenters have pointed out, the oceans are a far larger CO2 sink.
Doug Proctor makes the useful point that someone should check how much CO2 we are actually emitting worldwide, rather than accepting the official values. He suspects there may have been an exaggeration, since that would advantage the profiteers of doom. Given the history of exaggeration by so-called “scientists” in this field, he may be right.
Bart rightly points out that equation (7), a rearrangement of Skeptical Science’s hooby-dooby equation (6), is defective because it assumes the climate object is static when it is in fact dynamic.
Bobl says the half-life of CO2 in the atmosphere may be as little as a year. That seems too short, given the behaviour of the 14C decay curve.
Joel Shore, who continues to have difficulty in being polite, accuses Professor Salby of making “outlandish claims”, but without saying what it is that the Professor had claimed and why he thought the Professor was wrong. Mere yah-boo, in fact. Yah-boo is not science – unless you are an etiquetically challenged climate extremist.
Mr. Born remains unconvinced by my summary of Professor Pettersson’s conclusions from the bomb-test curve. However, as has been pointed out, his equations (3, 4) are dimensionally challenged, and his model of a dynamic object is unduly static. He does not like Professor Pettersson’s comparison of the bomb-test curve with the Bern decay curve on the ground that the curves model distinct isotopes of CO2; however, as many have pointed out, for all relevant purposes the isotopes behave identically. He fails to appreciate the error made by the Bern model in choosing an absurdly elevated equilibrium constant that is contrary not only to theory but also to the empirical evidence from the bomb-test curve. And he says there is no basis for Pettersson’s rate-constant of decay, when, as Pettersson himself explains, his value best fits the observed curve, for there is no theoretical method of determining the decay constant, so he determined it empirically.
Willis Eschenbach presumes – incorrectly and on no evidence – that I do not understand the distinction between turnover time and response (or e-folding) time. In my opening sentence I had specifically mentioned the airborne half-life (i.e. response time) of 14CO2; I had wondered whether it was the same variable as the IPCC’s residence time; and I had explained in the post that the airborne or residential half-life of 14CO2 is self-evidently ten years: one has only to find the closest value to 0.5 in table 1 and see that it is the ten-year value. Willis had made the same inappropriate remarks about Professor Pettersson’s posting on this subject: but the Professor, too, had drawn his distinctions very carefully and correctly in the papers underlying the posting. It should no more be assumed that a layman knows no elementary mathematics than that an eminent professor knows none. Besides, in the bomb-test curve the turnover time and response time are not too different from one another because both are very short. The objective of the posting was to enquire why the response time of the usual isotopes of CO2 should be any different from that of radiocarbon as established by the bomb-test curve.
Hoser goes around the houses, mathematically speaking, to derive the exponential decay function (his equation 15), but neglects to modify it with the necessary addition of the equilibrium constant k, whose value Hoser accordingly assumes to be zero. However, the approximate ratio of the contents of the atmospheric to the biosphere/hydrosphere reservoirs is known and can be derived from Fig. 2; therefore k > 0, and specifically k = 0.015.
Mr. Stokes, in a characteristically confused comment, says that if the plants had gobbled some of the CO2 we had emitted we’d live in a very different world. Well, we do. NASA has measured the net primary productivity of plants during the satellite era (i.e., the rate at which the global mass of all trees and plants increases), and it has indeed increased substantially, through CO2 fertilization. Mr. Stokes then objects to my accurate citation of Henry’s Law, on the ground that it does not make very much difference. Well, in that event it would be most instructive to know what is causing the strong temperature-dependence of the annual fluctuations in net CO2 emission as determined by Professor Salby from measurements at Mauna Loa.
Mr. Hugoson is rightly suspicious of the notion of “ocean acidification”. There is indeed remarkably little empirical evidence for the supposed decline of 0.1 pH units since 1750 in the oceans. Indeed, a prize is on offer for the first person to design an automated pH monitor that will, for the first time, allow a reasonably comprehensive sampling of the oceans for changes in pH.
Janice Moore, supported by Alan Smersh, asks why Professor Salby’s work has not received more attention, here at WUWT as well as elsewhere. She asks why there is no summary of his work here (apart from a couple of mentions of it by me). I have prepared such a summary, recently revised with additional slides from his presentation kindly supplied by Mr. Mulholland, and I hope that Anthony will find space for it soon.
Janice Moore says:
November 21, 2013 at 10:08 pm
Hey Janice, I have followed Salby’s presentation in Hamburg in detail and have commented in the WUWT thread:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/06/21/nzclimate-truth-newsletter-no-313/
and I have travelled to London to see him in person and to give him my objections. Unfortunately there was little time for discussion, and I wasn’t properly dressed to follow the organizers in the catacombs of the Parliament (no tie…) and he was rather evasive in his answers. As far as I know, he never discussed things out at any blog either.
– Salby is wrong about the impossibility to make a distinction between fossil fuels and plant decay:
Fossil fuels are completely devoid of 14C, plants are not.
The whole uptake – decay balance can be calculated from the oxygen balance. Which shows that the whole biosphere is a net absorber of CO2. The earth is greening. Thus the whole decrease of the 13C/12C ratio in the atmosphere is caused by human emissions, not by plant decay.
– Salby calculates the theoretical migration of CO2 in ice cores to fit his hypothesis (if the data don’t fit the hypothesis, then the data must be wrong, where have I heard that before?). But there is not the slightest proof of such high migration over time (not even measurable in the coldest ice cores over 800 kyr). If he was right, one would have negative CO2 values during the long ice ages, effectively killing near all life on earth.
That are two clear errors, both easily found in the scientific literature, which Salby hasn’t read or ignored. Neither has he defended his view on these points.
Thus sorry, Janice, until further notice, I am far from convinced by Salby’s speech in Hamburg and London…
It should of course be noted that the surface area of the oceans is actually dwarfed by the surface area of cloud water droplets which are both cold and when they form CO2 free. By Henry’s law these droplets will take up a lot of CO2. This is true from the equator to the poles. Rain is continually washing CO2 from the atmosphere to the surface where no doubt it either remains and is used by the biosphere, sinks in the oceans or outgasses back into the atmosphere. It is not the simple cycle of waiting in the atmosphere for its turn to be ‘uptaken’.
And of course this is a totally meaningless argument. CO2 has does not drive atmospheric temperatures in the real world, it has not heated the atmosphere resulting in more water vapor which is a fundamental requirement for AGW. Indeed it would appear that not only is there no tropical tropospheric hot spot but also that tropospheric humidity is dropping. AGW is a falsified hypothesis.
Ferdinand Engelbeen says:
November 22, 2013 at 3:41 am
……….
– Salby calculates the theoretical migration of CO2 in ice cores to fit his hypothesis (if the data don’t fit the hypothesis, then the data must be wrong, where have I heard that before?). But there is not the slightest proof of such high migration over time (not even measurable in the coldest ice cores over 800 kyr). If he was right, one would have negative CO2 values during the long ice ages, effectively killing near all life on earth…….
You shoud read: “CO2 diffusion in polar ice: observations from naturally formed CO2 spikes in the Siple Dome (Antarctica) ice core” Ahn, Headly, et al – Journal of Glaciology, Vol. 54, No. 187, 2008
“ABSTRACT. One common assumption in interpreting ice-core CO2 records is that diffusion in the ice does not affect the concentration profile. However, this assumption remains untested because the extremely small CO2 diffusion coefficient in ice has not been accurately determined in the laboratory. In this study we take advantage of high levels of CO2 associated with refrozen layers in an ice core from Siple Dome, Antarctica, to study CO2 diffusion rates. We use noble gases (Xe/Ar and Kr/Ar), electrical conductivity and Ca2+ ion concentrations to show that substantial CO2 diffusion may occur in ice on timescales of thousands of years. We estimate the permeation coefficient for CO2 in ice is 4 10–21 molm–1 s–1 Pa–1 at –238C in the top 287m (corresponding to 2.74 kyr). Smoothing of the CO2 record by diffusion at this depth/age is one or two orders of magnitude smaller than the smoothing in the firn. However, simulations for depths of 930–950m (60–70 kyr) indicate that smoothing of the CO2 record by diffusion in deep ice is comparable to smoothing in the firn. Other types of diffusion (e.g. via liquid in ice grain boundaries or veins) may also be important but their influence has not been quantified.”
Perhaps some ‘slightest proof’ ?
It has even been peer reviewed.
Ferdinand the fixation of carbon in the upper ocean denudes the SURFACE of carbon, both CO2 and DIC, where there is biological carbon fixation
http://www3.geosc.psu.edu/~dmb53/DaveSTELLA/Carbon/7.08.gif
This generates a dis-equilibrium state, a steady state. The denuded upper 5 m are in dis-equilibrium and there is a net flux of carbon from the atmosphere and from below.
Where the waters are shallow, carbon cycling is rapid between the surface and the bottom, and the net influx from the atmosphere will be modest.
Where the waters are deep, carbon cycling is slow between the surface and the bottom, and the net influx from the atmosphere will be large.
At the surface DIC is converted into dissolved organic matter, a major fraction of which sinks rapidly;
http://origin-ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0967064510000834-gr1.jpg
On the way down the DOC is converted to CO2/CH4 depending on ecology.
However, the falling of ‘marine snow’ is the fasted rate of carbon transport in the oceans and this rate and mass transfer, determines the rate at which carbon is mixed from the atmosphere into the depths.
CO2 is cool. We need more.
Joe Born says:
No, the natural emissions that matter are not greater than the burning of fossil fuels. The point is that what you call “natural emissions” are just rapid exchanges between reservoirs. This is the picture that you should have in your head: There are three reservoirs of CO2 with rapid exchanges between them, the atmosphere, the biosphere, and the ocean mixed layer. Then, there are sources and sinks of CO2 that are locked away from these reservoirs with one being the carbon in fossil fuels (another being the deep ocean).
When you say there are large natural emissions, what you are talking about is just exchanges into the atmosphere from the biosphere and ocean mixed layer. However, these are a very different beast than emissions of a new source of carbon into these three reservoirs.
When we emit a slug of CO2 into the atmosphere from burning fossil fuels, some of it quickly leaves the atmosphere as it rapidly equilibrates between the three reservoirs. However, from there on, the process by which it leaves these three reservoirs is much slower.
Ian W says:
It would appear that way only if you look at reanalysis data known to be inadequate for determining the long term trend and ignore all the better reanalysis and satellite data that says the opposite.
http://geotest.tamu.edu/userfiles/216/Dessler10.pdf
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/323/5917/1020.summary
As CO2 levels increase…..the sinks for it also increase
Ian W – Thanks for the ‘slightest proof’. Logically, it has to happen. Nice to see the logic confirmed.
Lord Monckton:
from the bomb-test data. And I am not satisfied by his defense of the post he wrote last summer.
I appreciate the effort that went into the post. While I regret (but it would have been unrealistic to expect otherwise) that the readership response has not ended up providing a more all-encompassing synthesis of the theories it sets forth, I am at least permitting myself to imagine that I have accomplished my own, more-modest goal, which was to alert you to the level of unease engendered by Pettersson’s drawing the inferences he does from the bomb-test. Since I only bat about .300 in similar attempts these days, I’ll count myself fortunate.
I hasten to reiterate that I have no opinion about the validity of Pettersson’s equation itself; I merely have strong reservations about his inferring a value of its
Ferdinand Engelbeen – You say “The deep ocean exchanges largely bypass the ocean surface as well as at the downwelling as at the upwelling sites.”. The first part must be saying that movements in the deep ocean aren’t in the surface, which is true by definition. Downwellings and upwellings obviously do move between the surface and the deep. Maybe you are saying that water resident in the surface layer, and water resident in the deep, do not mix. There may be a sense in which this is correct, but to my mind it is not meaningful, the point being that an upwelling for example brings new water to the surface – it becomes the surface – and the ocean-atmosphere CO2 exchange is driven by pCO2 difference at the surface. Downwelling similarly (in reverse).
You also say “extra CO2 entering the solution [..] is 10 times more than for fresh water, it is only 10% of the changes in the atmosphere”. Here, your “10% of the changes in the atmosphere” is irrelevant. If ocean-atmosphere pCO2 imbalance causes a ton of CO2 to move from the atmosphere into the ocean, then the ocean’s CO2 content initially increases by a ton. But the Revelle effect then kicks in, and most of the CO2 changes chemically, allowing the ocean to take up a lot more CO2. Thus the Revelle effect greatly increases the ocean’s ability to absorb CO2. As you say, about 10 times.
In a later comment, you say “Biological processes indeed play an important role in the CO2 exchanges and reduce pCO2 (and increase δ13C) of the surface waters. But that doesn’t play much role in the change of DIC and pCO2 over time “. Here you are presumably talking about the surface layer. Of course you aren’t going to see much change in DIC and pCO2 over time, because the surface layer is always trying to balance with atmospheric pCO2. But, as DocMartyn points out, “At the surface DIC is converted into dissolved organic matter, a major fraction of which sinks rapidly” and this “is the fasted rate of carbon transport in the oceans and this rate and mass transfer, determines the rate at which carbon is mixed from the atmosphere into the depths”. In other words, there is an ongoing transfer of C from the surface layer to the deep – the ‘second stage’ that I referred to earlier – and this does result in the surface layer absorbing even more CO2 from the atmosphere.
I can see it both ways personally, with oceans being such an unknown for the most part. We really can not answer this question conclusively until you prove the other part wrong. We have two valid hypothesis, so in the interest of science what we need to find out is how CO2 concentration differs in the following scenarios on our planet:
A warming world with no human emissions
A cooling world with no human emissions
A warming world with human emissions
A cooling world with human emissions
And from that we could figure out a fairly exact attribution. Of course, a cooling world coming into play might answer the question by itself, but its far from certain. I read most of what people posted here, and I can see two plausible situations that can not both be right. So design an experiment and prove your case correct through actual data and an actual experiment.