How far into the past can ice-core records go? Scientists have now identified regions in Antarctica they say could store information about Earth’s climate and greenhouse gases extending as far back as 1.5 million years, almost twice as old as the oldest ice core drilled to date. The results are published in Climate of the Past, an open access journal of the European Geosciences Union (EGU).
Potential oldest ice study areas (Credit: Van Liefferinge and Pattyn)
By studying the past climate, scientists can understand better how temperature responds to changes in greenhouse-gas concentrations in the atmosphere. This, in turn, allows them to make better predictions about how climate will change in the future.
“Ice cores contain little air bubbles and, thus, represent the only direct archive of the composition of the past atmosphere,” says Hubertus Fischer, an experimental climate physics professor at the University of Bern in Switzerland and lead author of the study. A 3.2-km-long ice core drilled almost a decade ago at Dome Concordia (Dome C) in Antarctica revealed 800,000 years of climate history, showing that greenhouse gases and temperature have mostly moved in lockstep. Now, an international team of scientists wants to know what happened before that.
At the root of their quest is a climate transition that marine-sediment studies reveal happened some 1.2 million years to 900,000 years ago. “The Mid Pleistocene Transition is a most important and enigmatic time interval in the more recent climate history of our planet,” says Fischer. The Earth’s climate naturally varies between times of warming and periods of extreme cooling (ice ages) over thousands of years. Before the transition, the period of variation was about 41 thousand years while afterwards it became 100 thousand years. “The reason for this change is not known.”
Climate scientists suspect greenhouse gases played a role in forcing this transition, but they need to drill into the ice to confirm their suspicions. “The information on greenhouse-gas concentrations at that time can only be gained from an Antarctic ice core covering the last 1.5 million years. Such an ice core does not exist yet, but ice of that age should be in principle hidden in the Antarctic ice sheet.”
As snow falls and settles on the surface of an ice sheet, it is compacted by the weight of new snow falling on top of it and is transformed into solid glacier ice over thousands of years. The weight of the upper layers of the ice sheet causes the deep ice to spread, causing the annual ice layers to become thinner and thinner with depth. This produces very old ice at depths close to the bedrock.
However, drilling deeper to collect a longer ice core does not necessarily mean finding a core that extends further into the past. “If the ice thickness is too high the old ice at the bottom is getting so warm by geothermal heating that it is melted away,” Fischer explains. “This is what happens at Dome C and limits its age to 800,000 years.”
To complicate matters further, horizontal movements of the ice above the bedrock can disturb the bottommost ice, causing its annual layers to mix up.
“To constrain the possible locations where such 1.5 million-year old – and in terms of its layering undisturbed – ice could be found in Antarctica, we compiled the available data on climate and ice conditions in the Antarctic and used a simple ice and heat flow model to locate larger areas where such old ice may exist,” explains co-author Eric Wolff of the British Antarctic Survey, now at the University of Cambridge.
The team concluded that 1.5 million-year old ice should still exist at the bottom of East Antarctica in regions close to the major Domes, the highest points on the ice sheet, and near the South Pole, as described in the new Climate of the Past study. These results confirm those of another study, also recently published in Climate of the Past.
Crucially, they also found that an ice core extending that far into the past should be between 2.4 and 3-km long, shorter than the 800,000-year-old core drilled in the previous expedition.
The next step is to survey the identified drill sites to measure the ice thickness and temperature at the bottom of the ice sheet before selecting a final drill location.
“A deep drilling project in Antarctica could commence within the next 3–5 years,” Fischer states. “This time would also be needed to plan the drilling logistically and create the funding for such an exciting large-scale international research project, which would cost around 50 million euros.”
More information
This research is presented in the paper ‘Where to find 1.5 million yr old ice for the IPICS “Oldest Ice” ice core’ published in the EGU open access journal Climate of the Past on 05 November 2013. Please mention the publication if reporting on this story and, if reporting online, include a link to the paper or to the journal website.
Full citation: Fischer, H. et al.: Where to find 1.5 million yr old ice for the IPICS ‘Oldest-Ice’ ice core, Clim. Past, 9, 2489-2505, doi:10.5194/cp-9-2489-2013, 2013.
The other study mentioned in the release is by Van Liefferinge, B. and Pattyn, F.: Using ice-flow models to evaluate potential sites of million year-old ice in Antarctica, Clim. Past., 9, 2335–2345, 2013.
There’s a lot of crappy things done in climate science, but finding new data is not one of them.
From the caption to figure 10: the simple 1-D model for a geothermal heat flux of
55 mW m^2 and a mean surface temperature of 213 K similar to the
the ones at Dome C.
55 milliwatts?
Steven Mosher: Off topic
Will your bot let us know when it has read the paper first?
Plainly, there has been a greenhouse gas “paradigm shift,” and now all of the earth sciences are being re-written. This top down approach by a “community” of “researchers” is legitimized in Kuhn’s Structure of Scientific Revolutions. “Paradigm shifts” in science certainly can entail wholesale re-construction of the past to suit the new paradigm.
“Since scientists’ worldview after a paradigm shift is so radically different from the one that came before, the two cannot be compared according to a mutual conception of reality. Kuhn concluded that the path of science through these revolutions is not necessarily toward truth but merely away from previous error.”
It’s how progressive scientists roll.
‘At the root of their quest is a climate transition that marine-sediment studies reveal happened some 1.2 million years to 900,000 years ago. “The Mid Pleistocene Transition is a most important and enigmatic time interval in the more recent climate history of our planet,” says Fischer. The Earth’s climate naturally varies between times of warming and periods of extreme cooling (ice ages) over thousands of years. Before the transition, the period of variation was about 41 thousand years while afterwards it became 100 thousand years. “The reason for this change is not known.”’
JimS comments: Correct. The reasons for this change from 41,000 years to 100,000 in mid-Pleistocene is not known, but there is a clue. According to the Milankovich Cycles, 41,000 years is the complete cycle for the obliquity (tilt) of the earth; and, 100,000 years is the full cycle for the eccentricity of the earth’s orbit. Logic would dictate that the solution rests within a study of these cycles, rather than examining a trace greenhouse gas, such as CO2, and its minimal impact upon climate.
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=233
inter-annual 8ppmv/K/year , NB _not_ 8ppmv/K !
that’s shallow water fast response. Prob mixed layer.
inter-decadal 4ppmv/K/year , deeper water maybe ~ 100m , possibly to thermocline.
Making a ballpark guess halve it again for century scale change 2ppmv/K/year (every year).
SSt rose about 0.7 K in last century. 0.7*2*100=140ppmv , which is not far from the rise since the supposed ‘pre-industrial level of 280ppmv (change of 120 ppmv).
Water below thermocline is much stiller, so diffusion will be a lot slower. However, this does need working out properly. Not just hand waving comparisons to what ice cores suggest about the last de-glaciation. We are not at the end of several thousand years of equilibration.
CO2 can diffuse into a solid plastic, so assuming ( as is conveniently done for ice cores ) that there is no diffusion after 10 or 20 years is fallacious.
As Allan MacRae points out , CO2 lags temperature on annual scale, it lags on millennial scale so on what time-scale does it do a flip to leading SST and when does it flip back again ?
I am unaware of anyone having shown it _ever_ leads temp change. So suggesting causation is rather problematic.
Before asking for 50 megabucks for another core they need to work out what use the data will be if and when they get it.
Got me to thinking about when (if ever) Murray Salby is going to produce something for inspection. He’s gone rather quiet since Hamburg.
I found this, apparently from his lecture:
http://notrickszone.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Salby-realworld-vs-model-world.png
Well for notrickzone , that looks a bit tricky to me. Totally incompatible scales used on both graphs we are supposed to compare. Taking a rough check on the axes:
LHS 5K / 600ppm
RHS 2.7K / 60 ppm
So RHS has multiplied the relative scaling by a factor of 5 !!
No wonder he does not want to publish.
Do you suppose that the entire “climate scientist” field of study is only an affirmative action program for “differentially enabled” wannabes?
(To think of an individual as “disabled” is to compare them to a culturally biased standard and find them somehow lacking. There is no reason why someone who can neither read nor write nor use an Excel spredsheet should not get a PhD in “climate science”,)
That would make any criticism of their method or results politically incorrect, I.e. you just can’t expect any better of them and it is totally unfair to mention it!
(Do I need a //sarc ??)
Regards,
SteamboatJack (Jon Jewett’s evil twin.)
On all measured time scales ∆T leads ∆CO2:
Monthly
Annual/decadal
Decadal [WFT]
Millennial
Causality shows that changes in temperature forces changes in CO2. Effect cannot precede cause, which is the alarmists’ basic premise: their conjecture claims that ∆CO2 causes ∆T. Empirical evidence shows us that is wrong. Since they started with a false premise, naturally their conclusion is wrong.
The entire “carbon” scare is based on the premise that a rise in CO2 will cause a rise in global temperature. But the real world itself shows us that they are wrong.
“Climate scientists suspect greenhouse gases played a role in forcing this transition…”
But they don’t suspect that humans played a role back then, do they? Whatever caused the transition, whether greenhouse gases or something else, it had to be a natural process. So why are warmists so adamant that recent warming is human caused when all previous examples of climate change were clearly a result of natural processes?
Steven Mosher says:
November 6, 2013 at 7:56 am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I’m guessing this is the first one and its classification is “Off Topic”?
I thought that it was established that CO2 levels lagged global temperatures.
Also, there has been no global warming for 17 years despite increases in CO2 levels,
thereby debunking AGW. No??
Well then, I plan the following:
1. Fill up the vacuum space of my vacuum bottle with CO2, and seal it.
2. Fill the main bottle with luke warm soup. [The CO2 will act like a blanket
and trap the heat. [the UN IPCC said so].
3. By the time lunch time rolls around my soup will be really hot from the back
radiation of the CO2. [the UN IPCC said so.]
4. Get a patent on this CO2 bottle.
5 Get filthy rich and buy a mansion near Gore or Suzuki [but higher than 12 meters
above sea level so as to have beach front property when the ice melts].
Voila!
Bring more money; 50 megaeuros, to keep us occupied. would this same research reveal what effect ancient Temperatures had on ancient CO2 ??
Of greater interest for many of us is whether these new cores give detailed insight into the atmospheric consequences of the last global magnetic field reversal 780,000 years ago
How’s this for an off-the-wall WAG about the transition? Maybe rather than CO2, the transition had more to do with the fact that the obliquity of Earth’s orbit (ie, the angle between its rotational axis & the normal to the plane of its orbit) oscillates between 22.1 & 24.5 degrees on a 41,000-year cycle?
“””””……Just an engineer says:
November 6, 2013 at 5:28 am
“By studying the past climate, scientists can understand better how temperature responds to changes in greenhouse-gas concentrations in the atmosphere. This, in turn, allows them to make better predictions about how climate will change in the future.”
If THAT is their objective, a dart board would more than suffice and be a LOT less expensive!……”””””
So I don’t know anybody who has much real interest in what the climate is likely to be a million and a half years from now; might not even be anybody to care about it then, just as there wasn’t anybody to care a million and a half years ago.
“Climate scientists suspect greenhouse gases played a role in forcing this transition (periodicity of ice ages changing from 41k to 100k), but they need to drill into the ice to confirm their suspicions. ”
This is the trouble with these attempts at science. You can be damned sure, I say with 97% confidence, that by seeking to confirm their suspicions, they will succeed in doing so! Moreover, the effect of the CO2 forcing will be robust and unprecedented, an worse, the unprecedented green house gas forcing of today will double the ice period to 200k years and kill everything. Ya know, for 50M euros, I would have hoped that they would drill this thing and find out stuff that they are surely to overlook with tunnel vision or cull out.
I expected, before the movie came out that Planet of the Apes was going to be a wonderful satire a la Johnathan Swift. It turned out to be more of a Charlton Heston hero story. It could have been prescient with its “Silverback” Science. Here’s an example of it’s worse-than-we-thought look.
http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/info-books/gorilla/images/pic-inset-eyes.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/info-books/gorilla/physical-characteristics.htm&h=315&w=260&sz=38&tbnid=N1mfFyV0pxorIM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=74&zoom=1&usg=__Nw36OmP5Gr1GI_apnpUft_ZdlLg=&docid=60UTXk1cROjwrM&sa=X&ei=OJJ6Upe5DYXPqQHD1YCYDw&ved=0CEEQ9QEwBg
Thanks Anthony,
I hope they can secure the 50 million euros.
Evgueni says:
November 6, 2013 at 2:31 am
Congrats on finding old ice. Can I have some for my whisky?
Great idea, but I bet it would explode the second it touched the whisky. Formed by intense pressures, very unlike the ice we normally encounter.
“Got me to thinking about when (if ever) Murray Salby … .” (Greg Goodman at 8:46am today)
I’m assuming you have, by now, Mr. Goodman, watched all of Dr. Salby’s April 18, 2013 Hamburg lecture. Apparently, it doesn’t answer your questions. Not being a technically qualified, I have no idea whether your questions should have been answered by that lecture and all the detailed slides accompanying it.
*****************************
FYI (for anyone wanting to watch Salby’s lecture, posted below), some indication (from my notes)of what you will hear in the above-mentioned lecture with approximate times:
…
– [10:32] Native (natural) emission of CO2 depends strongly on temperature
– [10:58] Net CO2 emission has .63 correlation with temperature
– [11:35] CO2 evolves like the integral of temperature, i.e., it is proportional to the cumulative net emission of CO2 from all sources and sinks
– [13:52] Temp. and CO2 evolve coherently on all times scales longer than 2 years
– [14:03] CO2 lags temp. by a quarter cycle (i.e., in quadrature, using cosine and sign, lags by 90 degrees) – Note: Differing periods means no single lag value will align all components, thus, CO2 and temp. must be distributed widely over positive lag [13:22]
– [14:40] CO2 levels in ice change over time (due to natural modification and to measurement error)
– [15:56] Conservation Equation (includes non-conservative factor, i.e., CO2 sinks) – illustrated by biomass
— [17:05] The Conservation Equation includes the total or “effective” damping
[23:30] from atmospheric damping (i.e., non-conservative influences) of CO2 in the firn (when ice at top) and damping in the ice as it descends.
– [25:40] Changes in atmospheric CO2 are underestimated in the proxy record (and this underestimation increases radically over time [see graph at 26:11], i.e., the change in the atmosphere is much greater than the apparent change of CO2 in the ice.
-[27:01] Over time 10,000 years, the ice proxy underestimates atmospheric CO2 by a factor of 2; over 100,000 years, under by factor of 15 [27:29]
– [27:52] Observed changes in the 20th century are certainly not unprecedented
– [28:50] Incorporating depth (i.e., time) in ice transforms conservation equation to the Diffusion Equation
— [30:40] now can see that the proxy CO2 underestimation of atmospheric CO2 increases with frequency (high frequencies with short time scales that are CO2-conservative are suppressed in ice)
– Cross covariance of Temp. and CO2 equation at [18:02]
…
******************************************
For anyone wanting to learn about ice core proxies (and lots more!)
here is ….
Dr. Murry Salby to speak for himself #(:))
In yesterdays WUWT post on the Nat Geo latest scare piece there was a link to an interactive map; one of the tabs on the map was a timeline ( http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/09/rising-seas/if-ice-melted-map) on this timeline they say the Antarctic ice sheets did not form till ~35 mya and state “no ice” in Antarctica ~70 mya.
So how does one expect to find 150my old ice where there wasn’t any 70mya? Or is Nat Geo just fos (entirely believable).
Fortunately Canadian geologists in the oil industry will be “enlightened” soon by Susan R. Eaton:
http://www.cspg.org/CSPG/Technical/Luncheons/2013/TL141210.aspx
“Today, earth scientists travel to Antarctica — the world’s last remaining wilderness — to research planetary processes, including the impacts of climate change and ocean change. During the past fifty years, the Western Antarctic Peninsula has warmed 3 degrees Celsius, triggering a cascading series of geological and biological changes in this fragile ecosystem which have global implications.”
Thank you Susan for this gem of circular reasoning.
Mariwarcwm says:
November 6, 2013 at 12:23 am
And the warming effect of CO2 was as strongly logarithmic 1.5million years ago as it is today so finding out how much CO2 there was in the atmosphere is a further waste of time and money.
Only if you are a warming alarmist, which would mean you have pre-determined that you know all you need to. The fact is, that time period was considerably warmer than the present according to available geological and marine data. There was a major step change between the middle and late Pleistocene that saw increasing length of glacical epochs, increasing chill during those epochs and a failure to rebound from the depths of those epochs to temperatures typical of the early and middle Pleistocene, which was still part of the “Ice Age.” We are at present at very close to the coldest that planet has been during the entire Phanerozoic (see here for instance: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/temperature/). So, unless one considers “the science settled” the study is far from being a waste. What is remarkable is the “cherry picking” you encounter researching Pleistocene temperatures. Nearly all pages addressing the “ice age” focus on the last 500 ky, that is, roughly the latest third to quarter of the Pleistocene. The earlier Quaternary was still a galcial period, but the timing between glacial advances was much shorter and the temperature variation much less intense compared to the last 500 ky.
Richdo says:
November 6, 2013 at 11:51 am
In yesterdays WUWT….
Wow how did that happen. Pretty embarrassing. I’ll stay late and clean the blackboard.
It would certainly be highly valuable to have a continuous ice core reconstruction extending back 1.5 million years, significantly further than the mid-pleistocene revolution (MPR) at about 1 million years ago. This would shed light on the problem of what caused the change from 41 kYr periodicity of interglacials to approximately 100 kYr periodicity at the MPR.
A widely held view is that these two periodicities, which correspond to the obliquity cycle (41 kYrs) and the eccentricity cycle (100 kYrs), represent a switch from forcing by obliquity to forcing by eccentricity, with the forcings subject in each case to nonlinear amplification. However a contrary view was expressed by Maslin and Ridgewell in 2005:
http://tracer.env.uea.ac.uk/e114/publications/manuscript_maslin_and_ridgwell.pdf
who cast doubt on whether the ~100 kYr periodicity of the glacial-interglacial cycle post-MPR is really eccentricity forced. They point to eccentricity being the weakest of the three Milankovich cycles (eccentricity 100 kYr, obliquity 41 Kyr, precession 27 kYr) and also to the mismatch between spectral characteristics of the eccentricity cycle with the glacial-interglacial, as shown by Ruddiman 2003:
Ruddiman, W. F. 2003. Orbital insolation, ice volume, and greenhouse gases. Quaternary Science Reviews, 22, 1597-1629.
Maslin and Ridgeway instead proposed that, while the glacial cycle pre-MPR was obliquity forced in a direct way, the timing post-MPR was only “pseudo-100kYr” and that it resulted in fact from more complex forcing by the shorter (27 kYr) precession cycle, which however was only “firing” every 4-5 cycles instead of every cycle. They proposed that eccentricity might be providing “pacing” to the glacial cycle but that the “forcing” was precessional.
One thing that is clear – as we are often usefully reminded here by William McClenney – is that the glacial-interglacial cycle is phase-locked to precession. For instance, post-MPR, the end of an interglacial ALWAYS takes place in the middle of the down-stroke of precession. (We are currently at precession mid down-stroke.) This is analagous to the fact, for instance, that the el Nino peak in ENSO always happens in December-January and that this is a consequence of the phase-locking of ENSO to the annual cycle.
A phase-locking signature is strong indirect evidence of the nature of a nonlinear periodic forcing agent. Tziperman, Cane and Zebiak (1995) showed that the annual phase-locking of ENSO is linked to the fact that ENSO is a low-order chaotic system driven by annual forcing.
http://www.seas.harvard.edu/climate/eli/reprints/Tziperman-Cane-Zebiak-1995.pdf
The ENSO analogy would suggest that the phase-locking of end-interglacials to the precession mid down-stroke is a strong hint that the nonlinear forcing of the glacial cycle is indeed by the precessional cycle. Lin et al 2004 studied the dynamics of strong and weak periodic nonlinear forcing in the Belousov-Zhabotinsky reaction:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/nlin/0401031.pdf?origin=publication_detail
in their words,
“The entrainment to the forcing can take place even when the oscillator is detuned from an exact resonance [8, 9, 10]. In this case, a periodic force with a frequency ff shifts the oscillator from its natural frequency, f0, to a new frequency, fr, such that ff/fr is a rational number m:n. When the forcing amplitude is too weak this frequency adjustment or locking does not occur; the ratio ff/fr is irrational and the oscillations are quasi-periodic. In dissipative systems frequency locking is the major signature of resonant response.”
In other words, where periodic forcing has (a) high enough amplitude and (b) is close to a resonant frequency of a system, then strong nonlinear forcing results, such as biological organism entrainment to the day-night cycle. However when (a) and (b) are not met then you get weak forcing in which the resulting frequency of the system is a more complex and indirect function of the forcing frequency.
Thus I would characterise the MPR as a change from strong nonlinear periodic forcing of the glacial-integlacial cycle by obliquity, to weak nonlinear forcing by precession.
A continuous 1.5 Myr ice core would however shed valuable light on this question.
Who needs an ice core when the models have already told what they’ll find? /sarc off
It’s unfortunate that this sample has been contaminated by a tree ring. (OK. Maybe the sarc wasn’t off.)