In the U.K. there is a big ridiculous row over this well concealed gas well in Balcombe, that the Balcombe Parish Council didn’t even object to when Cuadrilla’s application for planning permission to drill for shale gas went before them.
The noise being made by the anti-frackers in America is equally ridiculous, they can’t even protest the right well sites. “The protesters do not seem concerned with such details”
Josh writes:
Given the recent protests about Fracking, I thought some cartoons on the subject might be a good idea.
Suggestions for further Fract Sheets are very welcome!
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“Not necessarily – if you build a smart grid then you can counter intermittency. Not yet done, but apparently achievable, especially if you include other tech such as solar PV, wave, tidal, nuclear, etc.”
Kit, as someone who is apparently doing a PhD in Carbon Capture I’d have thought you’d have had a good enough awareness of power generation and distribution to realise this is b*ll*cks.
“Apparently achieveable”.
Have you talked to any power distribution engineers?
The grid has worked _because_ it’s been a rigidly controlled backbone that consumers can rely on to supply thier electricity on demand.
taobabe:
You advocated solar power and asked what was wrong with it. I answered your question and at August 9, 2013 at 3:50 pm
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/09/friday-funny-fracktional-thinking/#comment-1385757
you have replied
No! There are NOT “such things” for use at significant scale.
If you could invent a battery that would store sufficient electricity for “utility use” then you would make a fortune. It would reduce the need for power stations by about a third by storing power from times of low demand for use in times of high demand.
Richard
We have been frac’ing successfully in Kansas since the 1940s, with no water well contamination. It’s been a very successful technology. Many wells are in the middle of cultivated fields; no problem with the crops.
“If you could invent a battery that would store sufficient electricity for “utility use” then you would make a fortune. It would reduce the need for power stations by about a third by storing power from times of low demand for use in times of high demand. ”
http://www.dvice.com/2013-2-10/texas-switches-worlds-biggest-battery
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-17/japan-to-install-battery-in-hokkaido-to-ease-solar-pressure.html
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-01/china-builds-worlds-largest-battery-36-megawatt-hour-behemoth
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jul/29/biggest-battery-energy-technology-trial
Steve Dove:
Many thanks for your post at August 10, 2013 at 8:42 am.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/09/friday-funny-fracktional-thinking/#comment-1386269
As the links you provide demonstrate, there is much work in many places attempting to devise large-scale energy storage.
The essential problem is safety.
A fuel is a store of energy and it needs to release the stored energy in a controlled manner. Burn a kilo of coal and a kilo of gelignite and the coal releases more energy than the gelignite, but the gelignite releases its energy faster. Few would try to warm their hands with burning gelignite!
However, a safe and large-scale energy storage system for use to ‘smooth’ the supply of electricity available to a grid would have immense benefits.
It would be advantageous if a tiny fraction of the money being wasted on subsidising windfarms were expended on research of the kinds your links report. Perhaps WUWT readers could attempt to promote this?
Again, thanks.
Richard
I live in Sussex. Balcombe didn’t seem to care who drilled where until the TV cameras arrived.
Sussex oil wells usually have those “nodding donkey” type pumps things at the well head so they are a bit of a noisy blot on the landscape but the kids think them fun.
RB: “Brighton even has the Greens in control of the city council and a right mess they are making of it”…
There is little doubt that the gays, not the greens, have taken over Brighton. Parking has become expensive but apart from that I think they are doing a wonderful job. It’s clean, tidy, well mowed and trimmed. The nightlife is exceptional regardless of your persuasion, almost full employment and the shopping is to die for.
The well doesn’t produce electricity. It produces liquid and gas fuels. Yes, you have to add the power plant or refinery or gas processing plant, but these have small footprint per unit of energy.
Oh, yes. Multiple horizontal wells extending for miles. And at 8,000 or 10,000 feet below ground surface they are truly an eyesore. Contaminated water? Look, if your faucet dispenses water that can catch fire, I’d guess your well intercepts a coal seam and was improperly completed. The only place I know where groundwater is contaminated is Pavillion, Wyoming, and no one can quite figure out how it got contaminated. The investigators did a lousy job of drilling and completing their exploration wells. Maybe there is some contamination from poor disposal methods in places. Not a huge problem in any event. Groundwater at 8,000 feet below ground surface is already contaminated–full of dissolved solids, gas, and oil–this is not drinking water
Fugitive methane is waste (wasted profit), and all reasonable companies find leaks and stop them.
While the contentious issue is hydraulic fracturing, it is actually horizontal drilling technology combined with fracturing that has led to our oil boom.
alexwade@3:56,
I have a fractfact for you: Rapidly lowering population will be humane.
Another suggestion for Josh: A bunch of frustrated, swearing workers with a fleet of futuristic construction vehicles, all sporting a micro fusion power pack, trying to dismantle all those windmills, while a single, whistling worker turns a valve in the close direction on the gas wellhead.
Canman says:
“alexwade@3:56,
“I have a fractfact for you: Rapidly lowering population will be humane.”
Yes! Go! Either of you. Doesn’t matter. Show us the way! Show us by your selfless example. Show us how ‘lowering population’ should be done. We are your eager students.
I just love these frank discussions.
Mr. D. B. (in your ear),
I think Alex Wade’s list has been misunderstood by some of us WUWTers. He was, I think, listing facts of which the Fantasy Science Club would approve. Mr. Wade (and Can Man) are being sarcastic, I think. Can Man was just adding another AGW junk fact to the junk fact list of “Fracfacts.”
[Alex Wade at 9:56AM]
************************
Thank you, Kevin Knoebel, for the “gasoline” etymology (1:18AM). I appreciate your kindness to a tired (and now, here I am again, tired!) ally. I should have, I suppose, tried wiki, — AHEM — #[:)] — but, I really do not trust the accuracy of that riki-tiki thing. It may be right, or it may not… . What I read there sounded great!
BTW — I tried to tell you this when I first saw you had returned, here goes again — glad you are back! Hope all is well. (I pray for you) (how’s the “goal”? going? — hope God is saying, “Yes” about that prayer!)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/10233955/The-town-where-fracking-is-already-happening.html
“It is not a new technology, we have had 200 wells fracked in England and no one has even noticed.”
Balcombe is not gas but oil exploration and no fracking planned. Hole diameter 6ins. This information from the CEO of the drilling company
From Janice Moore on August 10, 2013 at 10:45 pm:
Well, I’d been driving around an old Plymouth Neon, that developed a slow coolant leak. Started fixing, hoped it’s just a hose and not the radiator, as the A/C bolts right to it, and the replacement’s likely more than the vehicle’s worth.
So I thought hard, looked around, dug deep, and got a good Jeep Grand Cherokee for $3K cash. Working A/C for the mother, 4×4 for the Pennsylvania winters, and all-in-all great driving and spacious. Only 13.5 mpg per the computer display, which is actually better than the old pick-up truck. Just what we needed.
Tonight, it got rear ended. In town, I’m stopped at a light, and some moron rams me when he should’ve been braking. I’m fine, I think, so far. I heard stuff breaking, Jeep didn’t get pushed too far forward. Look in the mirror, other guy’s moving, looks OK. I’m thinking, fine, now we exchange info.
Wait, he’s backing up. What the ****, he’s running away down a side street!
Community happens. Nice locals heard the noise, came out of their homes. While I’m talking to 911 on my cell, they’re saying what they saw and heard, it looked like a Ford Focus, etc. One went down that alley, brought back large plastic pieces that fell off the vehicle. Cop came, the cruiser followed the coolant trail.
Then 911 calls back, they got called away, they’ll be back. Etc. I was almost an hour hanging out with the nice strangers. Cop came back, they got the guy, didn’t need witnesses, didn’t even need the pieces, community went home.
In the cruiser’s headlights, I could see the Jeep’s damage. Just imagine rounded hood wedging under plastic-covered bumper, pushing in gas tank somewhat. No broken rear lights, hatch still opens fine.
It’s presumably drivable, as I drove it home. But it needs work, which his insurance shall pay for if they don’t total it out instead. BTW, it’s one of those Jeep SUV’s that missed the recent recall although it was one of the groups originally fought over, with the gas tank largely behind the rear bumper but the bottom is lower and visible, unobstructed direct hit from behind possible, that allegedly can leak and lead to a quick all-engulfing inferno when the vehicle is rear-ended.
I keep odd hours. Figuring in the 3-hour difference between PA and WordPress (Pacific) posting times…
You posted you were hoping all is well, about ten minutes after the collision, around 1:35AM EDT. You were thinking about my wellbeing, prior to writing, right about when I got hit.
The reply is, all is not well, as it looks like I have to finally put the Neon back together, possibly today. But it could have been much worse, like if I had been hit like that in the Neon. Which I might have except for that slow coolant leak. (Little thing leads to larger thing which goes to something else then…)
Feel free to keep praying, Janice. Seems to be working.
The UK power supply industry has decided to go for diesel for short-term-supply:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2362762/The-dirty-secret-Britains-power-madness-Polluting-diesel-generators-built-secret-foreign-companies-kick-theres-wind-turbines–insane-true-eco-scandals.html
And is also using battery back-up as well:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/the-smarter-grid/uk-launches-europes-largest-energy-storage-trial
Not much hope of nuclear, as all the major political parties have serious green tints now, and nuclear is expensive…with the government not wanting to pay.
As for Brightons greens….they also think democracy is a bad idea….if they want to increase the local taxes above a few percent (and they do) they have to hold a local referendum (no choice, it’s law). They think that is a terrible idea and are moaning fit to wear your ears down.
“Bill says:
August 9, 2013 at 10:08 am”
Largely agree with you, Bill. For some reason (which I can’t possibly fathom), those replying to my comments believe me to be a fully paid up member of the wind lobbyists. I’m not. But stating that won’t stop the personal attacks (“hypocrite”, “fool”, etc.). Neither will explicitly stating that I am not against gas. To respond to Anthony, it doesn’t make me a hypocrite to recognise the issues which come with a technology – if I had said that I was opposed to gas and that we shouldn’t be using it, then yes you could fairly brand me as hypocritical. My problem, then, is that the issues around shale gas are not fairly represented. Note that I haven’t said “wind turbines don’t kill birds” and neither am I denying that energy companies aren’t exploiting subsidies to build wind farms where they are inappropriate. I also have not said that “shale gas contaminates groundwater”, I said it “possibly” could – a subtle difference which seems to eluded several on here.
To reply to the chap from Aberdeen who states decades between well work overs – if you are talking about North Sea wells, then yes this is true, since gas accumulations are in sandstones with good permeability and porosity, therefore fracing is not necessary. I will be happy to admit being wrong with respect to shale gas, but having attended talks from various shale gas industry reps and academics, my impression is that each well drilled requires constant or regular work to exploit it. But I will concede if an expert puts me straight. And as for no heat in winter from solar gain, you have not experienced a properly insulated and temperature controlled property! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house I know several people who live in such houses, and their fuel bill (electricity) is tiny (£20 a quarter) year-round.
“Nial says:
August 10, 2013 at 1:52 am”
“Bollocks” you say? I said “apparently” because that is the view of Andrew Hiorns of the National Grid. I’m not an engineer and I’ve not talked to grid engineers, but I’m sure Andrew has. If you have 15-20 minutes, you can see what he has to say here: http://glocast.com/webcasts/global_energy_systems_conference_2013/2.9_Andrew_Hiorns.html If you don’t have time, you can skip to his last slide. If you disagree with him, you should let him know directly.
@LeastMostWanted talks about the supposed horrors being promulgated in North Dakota because of some pictures.
Well, how about a first hand account, from someone who works in the dreaded fracking industry. I own a sand hauling rig, and have been going to oil wells for close to two years, in North Dakota and Texas.
First, the ground water scare tactic. Maybe they have some problems in the Marcellus formation, where the gas is relatively shallow, but I can tell you groundwater contamination in the Bakken is virtually impossible. Most wells are at least two miles deep, well below the water table. The chance of a well casing breaking above water table depth is small, no more chance of that happening than a water well casing breaking.
While a well is being drilled and then fracked, there is a lot equipment around, and I can tell you from personal experience if ANY foreign substance hits thenground the oil company representative on site will shut everything down right now. True story: guy can’t get to the porta john in time and relieves himself on the well pad. Company rep. gets supervisor from guy’s company on the phone and wants a full environmental report filed, to include approximate amount of urine, as this was, in his eyes a foreign substance and required said report. If any amount of oil or diesel fuel hits the ground the area is immediately remediated, no questions. Safety and environmental education is a staple of the industry, and no one is exempt. (Sand is not considered a contaminant, for obvious reasons. Whatever is left on the ground is incorporated in the final pad cleanup)
Rather than cringe at some photos, go to a frac site. It’s noisy, there’s a LOT of engines spewing the dreaded CO2 into the air, and a lot of activity is going on. But you’ll see nothing that closely resembles an environmental disaster in the making. What you will see is people doing a job that helps supply us with the cheap energy your favored windmills cannot.
BTW, LeastMostWanted, have you seen the study that shows in order to supply the entire globe’s electricity needs in 25 years we’d have to use every spare foot of empty space we have now, nd then some? In other words, wind can never supply any significant portion of our electricity needs. Wind may, MAY, be economical on an individual basis (and that is highly debatable), but for mass usage? Not!
Kit Carruthers:
In reply to me, at August 9, 2013 at 9:13 am
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/09/friday-funny-fracktional-thinking/#comment-1385507
you made a ridiculous assertion concerning the intermittent supply of electricity from windfarms, saying
In my response to that post, at August 9, 2013 at 10:36 am
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/09/friday-funny-fracktional-thinking/#comment-1385574
I replied to that untrue assertion saying
I notice that you ignored my rebuttal of your silly statement.
However, your silly statement was described as being
by WillR at August 9, 2013 at 12:41 pm
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/09/friday-funny-fracktional-thinking/#comment-1385702
in his detailed explanation of grid operation in Ontario which he concludes saying
I notice that you also ignored WillR’s rebuttal of your silly statement.
Then Nial said at August 10, 2013 at 1:52 am
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/09/friday-funny-fracktional-thinking/#comment-1385998
and you have replied to that at August 11, 2013 at 8:53 am
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/09/friday-funny-fracktional-thinking/#comment-1386965
Your reply says
Aha! The good old tactic of providing evasions together with an appeal to authority fallacy!
Have “you talked to any power distribution engineers”?
You don’t say, but you do mention one, so it seems you have not.
Why should anybody contact Andrew Hiorns?
You are being asked to justify the silly assertion which you – not Hiorns – made on WUWT.
What does that slide you mention show?
You don’t say but you claim it explains how the impossible can be made possible.
If you can justify that claim in support of your silly assertion then do. But don’t set other people the ‘homework’ of watching the video then finding the slide, studying it, and deciding if it shows what you claim.
It is your responsibility to justify your silly assertion that the grid can distribute electricity from windfarms at times when the windfarms are not generating electricity so that electricity from windfarms does not exist.
Arm waving, evasions, and setting homework do not cut it.
Richard
Les Johnson said:
Is your jewelry really relevant? Oh, maybe you meant “pedant”. In that case. FAIL!
Jeff: sigh. Guilty as charged.
Jeff Alberts says:
August 11, 2013 at 4:13 pm (replying to)
Les Johnson said:
I jest cannot face EVER pronounciating the word “frace” in public.
Lettuce from hear and forever after, use the common “fracking” simply because – otterwise being pound wise and penny foolish – the term will will make its user sound fracingly foolish.
Kit carruthers: your
To reply to the chap from Aberdeen who states decades between well work overs – if you are talking about North Sea wells, then yes this is true, since gas accumulations are in sandstones with good permeability and porosity, therefore fracing is not necessary.
Whether a well is fractured or not has very little to do if needs workover. What is in the gas or oil is more important. A workover is usually due to plugging by migrating solids, asphaltenes, scale, or water blocks. Corrosion and downhole equipment failures are other causes.
I will be happy to admit being wrong with respect to shale gas, but having attended talks from various shale gas industry reps and academics, my impression is that each well drilled requires constant or regular work to exploit it. But I will concede if an expert puts me straight
I am an expert in conventional and shale gas. And yes, you are wrong. All of the workover scenarios I listed can be mitigated by a good completion design..
And as for no heat in winter from solar gain, you have not experienced a properly insulated and temperature controlled property! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house I know several people who live in such houses, and their fuel bill (electricity) is tiny (£20 a quarter) year-round.
You would be wrong here, too. I have owned energy efficient houses in Canada and Texas.
PV, solar gain, high efficiency heating, on demand hot water, low flow toilets, 12 inch roof insulation, 6 inch wall insulation, all LED, etc.
My energy bills were tiny, compared to the neighbours. With a smart meter to make the comparison, my bills were usually 50-80% less.
From your phrasing, you are not one of the people people paying 20 quid a month. Which only reinforces my statement that the 1 1/2 hours of January daylight in Edinburgh is not contributing much heat.
sigh….1 1/2 hours of sunlight, not daylight.
😉
It’s all good. We can poke fun at one another once in a while.
Yeah, but its much more fun to be the ‘poker’ rather than the ‘poked’.