Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Are there cycles in the sun and its associated electromagnetic phenomena? Assuredly. What are the lengths of the cycles? Well, there’s the question. In the process of writing my recent post about cyclomania, I came across a very interesting paper entitled “Correlation Between the Sunspot Number, the Total Solar Irradiance, and the Terrestrial Insolation“ by Hempelmann and Weber, hereinafter H&W2011. It struck me as a reasonable look at cycles without the mania, so I thought I’d discuss it here.
The authors have used Fourier analysis to determine the cycle lengths of several related datasets. The datasets used were the sunspot count, the total solar irradiance (TSI), the Kiel neutron count (cosmic rays), the Geomagnetic aa index, and the Mauna Loa insolation. One of their interesting results is the relationship between the sunspot number, and the total solar irradiation (TSI). I always thought that the TSI rose and fell with the number of sunspots, but as usual, nature is not that simple. Here is their Figure 1:
They speculate that at small sunspot numbers, the TSI increases. However, when the number of sunspots gets very large, the size of the black spots on the surface of the sun rises faster than the radiance, so the net radiance drops. Always more to learn … I’ve replicated their results, and determined that the curve they show is quite close to the Gaussian average of the data.
Next, they give the Fourier spectra for a variety of datasets. I find that for many purposes, there is a better alternative than Fourier analysis for understanding the makeup of a complex waveform or a time-series of natural observations. Let me explain the advantages of an alternative to the Fourier Transform, which is called the Periodicity Transform, developed by Sethares and Staley.
I realized in the writing of this post that in climate science we have a very common example of a periodicity transform (PT). This is the analysis of temperature data to give us the “climatology”, which is the monthly average temperature curve. What we are doing is projecting a long string of monthly data onto a periodic space, which repeats with a cycle length of 12. Then we take the average of each of those twelve columns of monthly data, and that’s the annual cycle. That’s a periodicity analysis, with a cycle length of 12.
By extension, we can do the same thing for a cycle length of 13 months, or 160 months. In each case, we will get the actual cycle in the data with that particular cycle length.
So given a dataset, we can look at cycles of any length in the data. The larger the swing of the cycle, of course, the more of the variation in the original data that particular cycle explains. For example, the 12-month cycle in a temperature time series explains most of the total variation in the temperature. The 13-month cycle, on the other hand, is basically nonexistent in a monthly temperature time-series.
The same is true about hourly data. We can use a periodicity transform (PT) to look at a 24-hour cycle. Here’s the 24-hour cycle for where I live:

Figure 2. Average hourly temperatures, Santa Rosa, California. This is a periodicity transform of the original hourly time series, with a period of 24.
Now, we can do a “goodness-of-fit” analysis of any given cycle against the original observational time series. There are several ways to measure that. If we’re only interested in a relative index of the fit of cycles of various lengths, we can use the root-mean-square power in the signals. Another would be to calculate the R^2 of the cycle and the original signal. The choice is not critical, because we’re looking for the strongest signal regardless of how it’s measured. I use a “Power Index” which is the RMS power in the signal, divided by the square root of the length of the signal. In the original Sethares and Staley paper, this is called a “gamma correction”. It is a relative measurement, valid only to compare the cycles within a given dataset.
So … what are the advantages and disadvantages of periodicity analysis (Figure 2) over Fourier analysis? Advantages first, neither list is exhaustive …
Advantage: Improved resolution at all temporal scales. Fourier analysis only gives the cycle strength at specific intervals. And these intervals are different across the scale. For example, I have 3,174 months of sunspot data. A Fourier analysis of that data gives sine waves with periods of 9.1, 9.4, 9.8, 10.2, 10.6, 11.0, 11.5, and 12.0 years.
Periodicity analysis, on the other hand, has the same resolution at all time scales. For example, in Figure 2, the resolution is hourly. We can investigate a 25-hour cycle as easily and as accurately as the 24-hour cycle shown. (Of course, the 25-hour cycle is basically a straight line …)
Advantage: A more fine-grained dataset gives better resolution. The resolution of the Fourier Transform is a function of the length of the underlying dataset. The resolution of the PT, on the other hand, is given by the resolution of the data, not the length of the dataset.
Advantage: Shows actual cycle shapes, rather than sine waves. In Figure 2, you can see that the cycle with a periodicity of 24 is not a sine wave in any sense. Instead, it is a complex repeating waveform. And often, the shape of the wave-form resulting from the periodicity transform contains much valuable information. For example, in Figure 2, from 6AM until noon, we can see how the increasing solar radiation results in a surprisingly linear increase of temperature with time. Once that peaks, the temperature drops rapidly until 11 PM. Then the cooling slows, and continues (again surprisingly linearly) from 11PM until sunrise.
As another example, suppose that we have a triangle wave with a period of 19 and a sine wave with a period of 17. We add them together, and we get a complex wave form. Using Fourier analysis we can get the underlying sine waves making up the complex wave form … but Fourier won’t give us the triangle wave and the sine wave. Periodicity analysis does that, showing the actual shapes of the waves just as in Figure 2.
Advantage: Can sometimes find cycles Fourier can’t find. See the example here, and the discussion in Sethares and Staley.
Advantage: No “ringing” or aliasing from end effects. Fourier analysis suffers from the problem that the dataset is of finite length. This can cause “ringing” or aliasing when you go from the time domain to the frequency domain. Periodicity analysis doesn’t have these issues
Advantage: Relatively resistant to missing data. As the H&W2011 states, they’ve had to use a variant of the Fourier transform to analyze the data because of missing values. The PT doesn’t care about missing data, it just affects the error bars.
Advantage: Cycle strengths are actually measured. If the periodicity analysis say that there’s no strength in a certain cycle length, that’s not a theoretical statement. It’s a measurement of the strength of that actual cycle compared to the other cycles in the data.
Advantage: Computationally reasonably fast. The periodicity function I post below written in the computer language “R”, running on my machine (MacBook Pro) does a full periodicity transform (all cycles up to 1/3 the dataset length) on a dataset of 70,000 data points in about forty seconds. Probably could be sped up, all suggestions accepted, my programming skills in R are … well, not impressive.
Disadvantage: Periodicity cycles are neither orthogonal nor unique. There’s only one big disadvantage, which applies to the decomposition of the signal into its cyclical components. With the Fourier Transform, the sine waves that it finds are independent of each other. When you decompose the original signal into sine waves, the order in which you remove them makes no difference. With the Periodicity Transform, on the other hand, the signals are not independent. A signal with a period of ten years, for example, will also appear at twenty and thirty years and so on. As a result, the order in which you decompose the signal becomes important. See Sethares and Staley for a full discussion of decomposition methods.
A full periodicity analysis looks at the strength of the signal at all possible frequencies up to the longest practical length, which for me is a third of the length of the dataset. That gives three full cycles for the longest period. However, I don’t trust the frequencies at the longest end of the scale as much as those at the shorter end. The margin of error in a periodicity analysis is less for the shorter cycles, because it is averaging over more cycles.
So to begin the discussion, let me look at the Fourier Transform and the Periodicity Transform of the SIDC sunspot data. In the H&W2011 paper they show the following figure for the Fourier results:
Figure 3. Fourier spectrum of SIDC daily sunspot numbers.
In this, we’re seeing the problem of the lack of resolution in the Fourier Transform. The dataset is 50 years in length. So the only frequencies used by the Fourier analysis are 50/2 years, 50/3 years, 50/4 years, and so on. This only gives values at cycle lengths of around 12.5, 10, and 8.3 years. As a result, it’s missing what’s actually happening. The Fourier analysis doesn’t catch the fine detail revealed by the Periodicity analysis.
Figure 4 shows the full periodicity transform of the monthly SIDC sunspot data, showing the power contained in each cycle length from 3 to 88 years (a third of the dataset length).
Figure 4. Periodicity transform of monthly SIDC sunspot numbers. The “Power Index” is the RMS power in the cycle divided by the square root of the cycle length. Vertical dotted lines show the eleven-year cycles, vertical solid lines show the ten-year cycles.
This graph is a typical periodicity transform of a dataset containing clear cycles. The length of the cycles is shown on the bottom axis, and the strength of the cycle is shown on the vertical axis.
Now as you might expect in a sunspot analysis, the strongest underlying signal is an eleven year cycle. The second strongest signal is ten years. As mentioned above, these same cycles reappear at 20 and 22 years, 30 and 33 years, and so on. However, it is clear that the main periodicity in the sunspot record is in the cluster of frequencies right around the 11 year mark. Figure 5 shows a closeup of the cycle lengths from nine to thirteen years.:
Figure 5. Closeup of Figure 4, showing the strength of the cycles with lengths from 9 years to 13 years.
Note that in place of the single peak at around 11 years shown in the Fourier analysis, the periodicity analysis shows three clear peaks at 10 years, 11 years, and 11 years 10 months. Also, you can see the huge advantage in accuracy of the periodicity analysis over the Fourier analysis. It samples the actual cycles at a resolution of one month.
Now, before anyone points out that 11 years 10 months is the orbital period of Jupiter, yes, it is. But then ten years, and eleven years, the other two peaks, are not the orbital period of anything I know of … so that may or may not be a coincidence. In any case, it doesn’t matter whether the 11 years 10 months is Jupiter or not, any more than it matters if 10 years is the orbital period of something else. Those are just the frequencies involved to the nearest month. We’ll see below why Jupiter may not be so important.
Next, we can take another look at the sunspot data, but this time using daily sunspot data. Here are the cycles from nine to thirteen years in that dataset.
Figure 6. As in figure 5, except using daily data.
In this analysis, we see peaks at 10.1, 10.8, and 11.9 years. This analysis of daily data is much the same as the previous analysis of monthly data shown in Figure 5, albeit with greater resolution. So this should settle the size of the sunspot cycles and enshrine Jupiter in the pantheon, right?
Well … no. We’ve had the good news, here’s the bad news. The problem is that like all natural cycles, the strength of these cycles waxes and wanes over time. We can see this by looking at the periodicity transform of the first and second halves of the data individually. Figure 7 shows the periodicity analysis of the daily data seen in Figure 6, plus the identical analysis done on each half of the data individually:
Figure 7. The blue line shows the strengths of the cycles found using the entire sunspot dataset as shown in Figure 6. The other two lines are the cycles found by analyzing half of the dataset at a time.
As you can see, the strengths of the cycles of various lengths in each half of the dataset are quite dissimilar. The half-data cycles each show a single peak, not several. In one half of the data this is at 10.4 years, and in the other, 11.2 years. The same situation holds for the monthly sunspot half-datasets (not shown). The lengths of the strongest cycles in the two halves vary greatly.
Not only that, but in neither half is there any sign of the signal at 11 years 10 months, the purported signal of Jupiter.
As a result, all we can do is look at the cycles and marvel at the complexity of the sun. We can’t use the cycles of one half to predict the other half, it’s the eternal curse of those who wish to make cycle-based models of the future. Cycles appear and disappear, what seems to point to Jupiter changes and points to Saturn or to nothing at all … and meanwhile, if the fixed Fourier cycle lengths are say 8.0, 10.6, and 12.8 years or something like that, there would be little distinction between any of those situations.
However, I was unable to replicate all of their results regarding the total solar irradiance. I suspect that this is the result of the inherent inaccuracy of the Fourier method. The text of H&W2011 says:
4.1. The ACRIM TSI Time Series
Our analysis of the ACRIM TSI time series only yields the solar activity cycle (Schwabe cycle, Figure 6). The cycle length is 10.6 years. The cycle length of the corresponding time series of the sunspot number is also 10.6 years. The close agreement of both periods is obvious.
I suggest that the agreement at 10.6 years is an artifact of the limited resolution of the two Fourier analyses. The daily ACRIM dataset is a bit over 30 years, and the daily sunspot dataset that he used is 50 years of data. The Fourier frequencies for fifty years are 50/2=25, 50/3=16.7, 50/4=12.5, 50/5=10, and 50/6=8.3 year cycles. For a thirty-two year dataset, the frequencies are 32/2=16, 32/3=10.6, and 32/4=8 years. So finding a cycle of length around 10 in both datasets is not surprising.
In any case, I don’t find anything like the 10.6 year cycle they report. I find the following:
Figure 8. Periodicity analysis of the ACRIM composite daily total solar irradiance data.
Note how much less defined the TSI data is. This is a result of the large variation in TSI during the period of maximum solar activity. Figure 9 shows this variation in the underlying data for the TSI:
Figure 9. ACRIM composite TSI data used in the analysis.
When the sun is at its calmest, there is little variation in the signal. This is shown in the dark blue areas in between the peaks. But when activity increases, the output begins to fluctuate wildly. This, plus the short length of the cycle, turns the signal into mush and results in the loss of everything but the underlying ~ 11 year cycle.
Finally, let’s look at the terrestrial temperature datasets to see if there is any trace of the sunspot cycle in the global temperature record. The longest general temperature dataset that we have is the BEST land temperature dataset. Here’s the BEST periodicity analysis:
Figure 10. Full-length periodicity analysis of the BEST land temperature data.
There is a suggestion of a cycle around 26 years, with an echo at 52 years … but nothing around 10-11 years, the solar cycle. Moving on, here’s the HadCRUT3 temperature data:
Figure 11. Full-length periodicity analysis of the HadCRUT3 temperature record.
Curiously, the HadCRUT3 record doesn’t show the 26- and 52-year cycle shown by the BEST data, while it does show a number of variations not shown in the BEST data. My suspicion is that this is a result of the “scalpel” method used to assemble the BEST dataset, which cuts the records at discontinuities rather than trying to “adjust” them.
Of course, life wouldn’t be complete without the satellite records. Here are the periodicity analyses of the satellite records:
Figure 12. Periodicity analysis, RSS satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.
With only a bit more than thirty years of data, we can’t determine any cycles over about ten years. The RSS data server is down, so it’s not the most recent data.
Figure 11. Periodicity analysis, UAH satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.
As one might hope, both satellite records are quite similar. Curiously, they both show a strong cycle with a period of 3 years 8 months (along with the expected echoes at twice and three times that length, about 7 years 4 months and 11 years respectively). I have no explanation for that cycle. It may represent some unremoved cyclicity in the satellite data.
SUMMARY:
To recap the bidding:
• I’ve used the Periodicity Transform to look at the sunspot record, both daily and monthly. In both cases we find the same cycles, at ~ 10 years, ~ 11 years, and ~ 11 years 10 months. Unfortunately when the data is split in half, those cycles disappear and other cycles appear in their stead. Nature wins again.
• I’ve looked at the TSI record, which contains only a single broad peak from about 10.75 to 11.75 years.
• The TSI has a non-linear relationship to the sunspots, increasing at small sunspot numbers and decreasing a high numbers. However, the total effect (averaged 24/7 over the globe) is on the order of a quarter of a watt per square metre …
• I’ve looked at the surface temperature records (BEST and HadCRUT3, which show no peaks at around 10-11 years, and thus contain no sign of Jovian (or jovial) influence. Nor do they show any sign of solar (sunspot or TSI) related influence, for that matter.
• The satellite temperatures tell the same story. Although the data is too short to be definitive, there appears to be no sign of any major peaks in the 10-11 year range.
Anyhow, that’s my look at cycles. Why isn’t this cyclomania? For several reasons:
First, because I’m not claiming that you can model the temperature by using the cycles. That way lies madness. If you don’t think so, calculate the cycles from the first half of your data, and see if you can predict the second half. Instead of attempting to predict the future, I’m looking at the cycles to try to understand the data.
Second, I’m not blindly ascribing the cycles to some labored astronomical relationship. Given the number of lunar and planetary celestial periods, synoptic periods, and the periods of precessions, nutations, perigees, and individual and combined tidal cycles, any length of cycle can be explained.
Third, I’m using the same analysis method to look at the temperature data that I’m using on the solar phenomena (TSI, sunspots), and I’m not finding corresponding cycles. Sorry, but they are just not there. Here’s a final example. The most sensitive, responsive, and accurate global temperature observations we have are the satellite temperatures of the lower troposphere. We’ve had them for three full solar cycles at this point. So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures. Here’s that record:
Figure 12. A graph showing the effect of the sunspots on the lower tropospheric temperatures. There is a slight decrease in lower tropospheric temperature with increasing sunspots, but it is far from statistically significance.
The vagaries of the sun, whatever else they might be doing, and whatever they might be related to, do not seem to affect the global surface temperature or the global lower atmospheric temperature in any meaningful way.
Anyhow, that’s my wander through the heavenly cycles, and their lack of effect on the terrestrial cycles. My compliments to Hempelmann and Weber, their descriptions and their datasets were enough to replicate almost all of their results.
w.
DATA:
SIDC Sunspot Data here
ACRIM TSI Data, overview here, data here
Kiel Neutron Count Monthly here, link in H&W document is broken
BEST data here
Sethares paper on periodicity analysis of music is here.
Finally, I was unable to reproduce the H&W2011 results regarding MLO transmissivity. They have access to a daily dataset which is not on the web. I used the monthly MLO dataset, available here, and had no joy finding their claimed relationship with sunspots. Too bad, it’s one of the more interesting parts of the H&W2011 paper.
CODE: here’s the R function that does the heavy lifting. It’s called “periodicity” and it can be called with just the name of the dataset that you want to analyze, e.g. “periodicity(mydata)”. It has an option to produce a graph of the results. Everything after a “#” in a line is a comment. If you are running MatLab (I’m not), Sethares has provided programs and examples here. Enjoy.
# The periodicity function returns the power index showing the relative strength
# of the cycles of various lengths. The input variables are:
# tdata: the data to be analyzed
# runstart, runend: the interval to be analyzed. By default from a cycle length of 2 to the dataset length / 3
# doplot: a boolean to indicate whether a plot should be drawn.
# gridlines: interval between vertical gridlines, plot only
# timeint: intervals per year (e.g. monthly data = 12) for plot only
# maintitle: title for the plat
periodicity=function(tdata,runstart=2,runend=NA,doplot=FALSE,
gridlines=10,timeint=12,
maintitle="Periodicity Analysis"){
testdata=as.vector(tdata) # insure data is a vector
datalen=length(testdata) # get data length
if (is.na(runend)) { # if largest cycle is not specified
maxdata=floor(datalen/3) # set it to the data length over three
} else { # otherwise
maxdata=runend # set it to user's value
}
answerline=matrix(NA,nrow=maxdata,ncol=1) # make empty matrix for answers
for (i in runstart:maxdata) { # for each cycle
newdata=c(testdata,rep(NA,(ceiling(length(testdata)/i)*i-length(testdata)))) # pad with NA's
cyclemeans=colMeans(matrix(newdata,ncol=i,byrow=TRUE),na.rm=TRUE) # make matrix, take column means
answerline[i]=sd(cyclemeans,na.rm=TRUE)/sqrt(length(cyclemeans)) # calculate and store power index
}
if (doplot){ # if a plot is called for
par(mgp=c(2,1,0)) # set locations of labels
timeline=c(1:(length(answerline))/timeint) #calculate times in years
plot(answerline~timeline,type="o",cex=.5,xlim=c(0,maxdata/timeint),
xlab="Cycle Length (years)",ylab="Power Index") # draw plot
title(main=maintitle) # add title
abline(v=seq(0,100,gridlines),col="gray") # add gridlines
}
answerline # return periodicity data
}
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.













I have another post in the queue – probably because of equations and multiple links.
Matthew R Marler says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:39 am
No. Zero padding does nothing more than more frequently sample the continuous-in-frequency Fourier Transform. It is not intuitive. You need to do the math.
Spence_UK says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:42 am
Leif, your focus is on the sidelobes, which is not the same thing I am interested in (I already understand where they come from, thanks to your explanation).
Contrast that with the following nonsense:
lgl says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:40 am
The ~100 yrs ‘cycle’ is a result of rectifying the Hale cycle, it’s not real. What we are observing is mainly the beat of 10 and 11 yrs (and 9*11.8yrs =106 yrs).
lgl says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:47 am
The reason should become apparent when my queued post appears.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:49 am
“Contrast that with the following nonsense:”
He is correct to an extent. It is a result of rectifying the Hale cycle. However, it is quite real.
Spence_UK: As for Matthew’s complaint that the harmonic series is a non-parsimonious representation of a simple function,
Is that a complaint? I’d say it’s just a fact that needs to be taken into account when choosing between alternative representations (and explorations) of a time series. You can certainly do an FFT on a time series that has a sawtooth curve, but it’s hard to compute from the coefficients what the starting, ending, and inflection points are, as well as the slopes of the teeth. You’d be better off, if you suspect a sawtooth to be the true shape of the signal, to perform piece-wise linear regression with non-linear estimation of the change-points. Certainly not as fast as an FFT, but at least you’d know the shape of the curve from the coefficients, which is sometimes what you want to know.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 10:11 am
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 9:51 am
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/poppenhaeger-hd-189733a-has-been-tidally-influenced-by-the-hot-jupiter/
Thanks for reposting the link Leif. Rather than argue with you here on Willis’ stats thread, I’ll let others follow the link, download the paper, read for themselves, and decide for themselves. Or they can take your word for it, their call.
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:54 am
I’ll let others follow the link, download the paper, read for themselves
They [and you] should also read:
http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~kpoppen/papers/Poppenhaeger_Correlation.pdf
“We conclude that there is no detectable influence of planets on their host stars”
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/poppenhaeger-hd-189733a-has-been-tidally-influenced-by-the-hot-jupiter/
though it is worth quoting the author:
This star is not acting its age, and having a big planet as a companion may be the explanation. It’s possible this hot Jupiter is keeping the star’s rotation and magnetic activity high because of tidal forces, making it behave in some ways like a much younger star.
See that use of the present tense there Leif?
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:59 am
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:54 am
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/poppenhaeger-hd-189733a-has-been-tidally-influenced-by-the-hot-jupiter/
I’ll let others follow the link, download the paper, read for themselves
They [and you] should also read:
http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~kpoppen/papers/Poppenhaeger_Correlation.pdf
“We conclude that there is no detectable influence of planets on their host stars”
That’s an earlier paper Leif.
Some scientists have the integrity to admit they may have been wrong and change their minds.
e.g.
Charbonneau 2003 “The planetary theory is dead”
Charbonneau 2013 “This is not astrology, it is science”
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:06 pm
It’s possible this hot Jupiter is keeping the star’s rotation and magnetic activity high because of tidal forces
Strong tidal forces can brake rotation [Moon on Earth] or even lead to tidal locking [many examples of that] and since rotation is implicated in generating stellar activity there could be a link there in a general sense. Nobody disputes that. The issue is whether the stellar cycles are synchronized with the orbital period of the planet and that does not seem to be the case, at least no examples have been found. But it seems you think you have found a straw to grasp at.
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:11 pm
That’s an earlier paper Leif. Some scientists have the integrity to admit they may have been wrong and change their minds.
The data from the paper stands. This is not about to changing her mind. Or admitting to be wrong.
Charbonneau 2013 “This is not astrology, it is science”
Even Charbonneau has not changed his mind: “It may all turn out to be wrong in the end, but this is definitely not astrology”. He says that the theory is testable and therefore qualifies as science, is all.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:15 pm
Strong tidal forces can brake rotation [Moon on Earth] or even lead to tidal locking [many examples of that] and since rotation is implicated in generating stellar activity there could be a link there in a general sense. Nobody disputes that. The issue is whether the stellar cycles are synchronized with the orbital period of the planet and that does not seem to be the case, at least no examples have been found. But it seems you think you have found a straw to grasp at.
The interplay of several big and several close planets in the solar system produces exactly the frequencies found in properly done spectrographic analyses of the sunspot record. There is some straw grasping (and mud flinging) going on, but it’s not me that’s doing it.
Leif Svalgaard says: July 30, 2013 at 1:22 am
tallbloke says: July 30, 2013 at 1:18 am
I already did. the data from 1840 is more than enough to prove the point.
That the match has broken down…
________________________________
Leif,
Tallbloke posted a graph of his ‘planetary index’ closely following the SSN for 150 years, but you have not explained why you disagree with this graph. Are you saying this close match is coincidence? Do you disagree with the data? Why would there be such a close match, if there was no link between the two?
and…
Tallbloke,
Can you explain how your planetary index is calculated (from the orbits of the main planets). In what way does the PI effect the Sun – is this the business of swinging the Sun around its barycenter?
Thanks,
Ralph
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:06 pm
though it is worth quoting the author
What she actually said was:
“it a more likely possibility that the stellar angular momentum of HD 189733A has been tidally influenced by the Hot Jupiter, which has inhibited the stellar spin-down enough to enable the star to maintain the relatively high magnetic activity we observe today”
This is a has been scenario in the distant past [as the stellar spin-downs take place at the beginning of the life of the star]. One can trust you to misinterpret this.
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:23 pm
There is some straw grasping (and mud flinging) going on, but it’s not me that’s doing it.
You mean there are other poor souls out there grasping at other sun-planet straws? Perhaps some have already posted here.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:19 pm
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:11 pm
That’s an earlier paper Leif. Some scientists have the integrity to admit they may have been wrong and change their minds.
The data from the paper stands. This is not about to changing her mind. Or admitting to be wrong.
You can’t have your cake and eat it Leif, if you want to claim data from the earlier paper on a different star system falsifies the later paper, then I can equally validly claim the conclusion from the later paper supercedes the earlier.
Charbonneau 2013 “This is not astrology, it is science”
Even Charbonneau has not changed his mind: “It may all turn out to be wrong in the end, but this is definitely not astrology”. He says that the theory is testable and therefore qualifies as science, is all.
“Is all”
Heh. After all the years of mud flinging, namecalling and denial of the possibility of planetary feedbacks to the Sun from you, that’s a good one.
Of course he has changed his mind. In 2003 he declared the theory dead. Now he’s excited.
ralfellis says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:33 pm
Tallbloke posted a graph of his ‘planetary index’ closely following the SSN for 150 years, but you have not explained why you disagree with this graph
I pointed out that the ‘close’ match [which is not that close to begin with, IMHO] has broken down for the last cycle. This often happens for spurious correlations. I asked him to extend the graph on the left [we have 400 years of SSN] but he claims to be too busy and doesn’t have time for that…
bart says
It is periods of more like 20 and 23.6 years which would need to be matched.
henry says
we agree!
so do you know which is the exact time for the period starting 1995?http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/29/cycles-without-the-mania/#comment-1375260
@Bart,
The “boxcar” averaging and decimation does cause significant aliasing when taken in the context of the variability of a temperature signal, simply because the decimation reflects daily data around the Nyquist frequency of 1/(2 weeks). Simulations show that this produces spurious trends that are significant in climatic terms i,.e.: 0.3 degrees over a 30 year period.
See the link.
ralfellis says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:33 pm
Tallbloke,
Can you explain how your planetary index is calculated (from the orbits of the main planets). In what way does the PI effect the Sun – is this the business of swinging the Sun around its barycenter?
Thanks,
Ralph
Hi Ralph and thanks for your interest.The planetary index is calculated as specified by NASA scientist Ching Cheh Hung in his 2007 paper ‘Apparent Relations Between Solar Activity and Solar Tides’
ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20070025111_2007025207.pdf
The title of which informs you that it is tidally based.
However, I took a novel approach on the hunch that the relationship may have more to do with electromagnetism. which is about a million-zillion times stronger than gravity. So I recalculated the alignments along the Parker spiral, and factored in the changing speed of the solar wind using Leif’s admirable reconstruction, supplemented by another study which went back to 1840.
This is why I’m reluctant to be bullied by Leif into trying to use a solar activity dataset back to 1610. Partly because although the auroral records give a reasonably good idea of when the peak of the cycles occurred, the minima are much vaguer. And partly because we have no idea of the solar wind speed at this earlier epoch. I’ve done the best I can to work faithfully to the scientific method, and I think it’s unfair of Leif to demand more.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:47 pm
ralfellis says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:33 pm
Tallbloke posted a graph of his ‘planetary index’ closely following the SSN for 150 years, but you have not explained why you disagree with this graph
I pointed out that the ‘close’ match [which is not that close to begin with, IMHO] has broken down for the last cycle.
Actually it hasn’t. Solar cycle 24 has (for the time being at least) died right on the planetary index cue. It may start up again in a couple of years and give us a ‘double peak’ cycle. Or there may be an odd ‘mini cycle’. It depends how the bigwigs choose to define it. Either way, that would be the icing on the cake for me.
Here’s the link to the plot again, for anyone who wants to keep and eye on its progress
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/rotation-solar-windspeed-adjusted.png
lgl says “…(and 9*11.8yrs =106 yrs).”
The presence of a strong 9 year cycle confounding attempts to identify a simplistic correlation between SSN and global temps was one of the main points of my article here:
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/61/
This is the same 9 year cycle N. Scafetta identified as being due to the influence of the moon on Earth’s orbit around the sun and the same same one Judith Curry and BEST team identified in the land record recently.
Dr. S’ recent conversion to 100 year cycle is somewhat ‘disturbing’.
Let me help out to good old doc : there is no 100 fundamental as you can see here it is simply cross modulation of two other periodicity.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LFC4.htm
We can safely assume that since it casts back with sudden reduction in length into the Maunder Minimum.
Average length since 1700 between two zero crossings is 52,5 years, giving an average length of 105 years.
Where two periodicity come from, one could produce at least half dozen planetary combination for each, or it may be something to do with solar internal workings.
It is well known fact that solar magnetic field has a pronounced bulge (discovered by young Svalgaard and his colleagues) written about by Dr. J. Feynman, which slowely drifts longintudinaly
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LFC7.htm
I would expect Dr. S to concentrate on the proper solar science rather than straining in the spurious harmonics of irregular centennial oscillation proclaiming it to be a fundamental. The lobes that Dr. S is so keen may be just irrelevant noise.
Year is strictly a local metric and 100 is a human invention, I don’t think sun cares much about either.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:47 pm
I pointed out that the ‘close’ match [which is not that close to begin with, IMHO]…
Well it’s your solar wind speed reconstruction, not mine. 😉
Bart
Thanks for the details, but where is the ~100 yr cycle?
It is periods of more like 20 and 23.6 years which would need to be matched.
Right, like Earth and Venus being accelerated a little extra every 22 yrs on average,
http://virakkraft.com/EMB-AM.png (from Semi)
The Sun and the inner planets together must ‘counter’ Jupiters motion, they are one object in this regard, and since one part of that object, the inner planets, are accelerated the other part, the Sun, must counter their ‘extra’ motion.