Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Are there cycles in the sun and its associated electromagnetic phenomena? Assuredly. What are the lengths of the cycles? Well, there’s the question. In the process of writing my recent post about cyclomania, I came across a very interesting paper entitled “Correlation Between the Sunspot Number, the Total Solar Irradiance, and the Terrestrial Insolation“ by Hempelmann and Weber, hereinafter H&W2011. It struck me as a reasonable look at cycles without the mania, so I thought I’d discuss it here.
The authors have used Fourier analysis to determine the cycle lengths of several related datasets. The datasets used were the sunspot count, the total solar irradiance (TSI), the Kiel neutron count (cosmic rays), the Geomagnetic aa index, and the Mauna Loa insolation. One of their interesting results is the relationship between the sunspot number, and the total solar irradiation (TSI). I always thought that the TSI rose and fell with the number of sunspots, but as usual, nature is not that simple. Here is their Figure 1:
They speculate that at small sunspot numbers, the TSI increases. However, when the number of sunspots gets very large, the size of the black spots on the surface of the sun rises faster than the radiance, so the net radiance drops. Always more to learn … I’ve replicated their results, and determined that the curve they show is quite close to the Gaussian average of the data.
Next, they give the Fourier spectra for a variety of datasets. I find that for many purposes, there is a better alternative than Fourier analysis for understanding the makeup of a complex waveform or a time-series of natural observations. Let me explain the advantages of an alternative to the Fourier Transform, which is called the Periodicity Transform, developed by Sethares and Staley.
I realized in the writing of this post that in climate science we have a very common example of a periodicity transform (PT). This is the analysis of temperature data to give us the “climatology”, which is the monthly average temperature curve. What we are doing is projecting a long string of monthly data onto a periodic space, which repeats with a cycle length of 12. Then we take the average of each of those twelve columns of monthly data, and that’s the annual cycle. That’s a periodicity analysis, with a cycle length of 12.
By extension, we can do the same thing for a cycle length of 13 months, or 160 months. In each case, we will get the actual cycle in the data with that particular cycle length.
So given a dataset, we can look at cycles of any length in the data. The larger the swing of the cycle, of course, the more of the variation in the original data that particular cycle explains. For example, the 12-month cycle in a temperature time series explains most of the total variation in the temperature. The 13-month cycle, on the other hand, is basically nonexistent in a monthly temperature time-series.
The same is true about hourly data. We can use a periodicity transform (PT) to look at a 24-hour cycle. Here’s the 24-hour cycle for where I live:

Figure 2. Average hourly temperatures, Santa Rosa, California. This is a periodicity transform of the original hourly time series, with a period of 24.
Now, we can do a “goodness-of-fit” analysis of any given cycle against the original observational time series. There are several ways to measure that. If we’re only interested in a relative index of the fit of cycles of various lengths, we can use the root-mean-square power in the signals. Another would be to calculate the R^2 of the cycle and the original signal. The choice is not critical, because we’re looking for the strongest signal regardless of how it’s measured. I use a “Power Index” which is the RMS power in the signal, divided by the square root of the length of the signal. In the original Sethares and Staley paper, this is called a “gamma correction”. It is a relative measurement, valid only to compare the cycles within a given dataset.
So … what are the advantages and disadvantages of periodicity analysis (Figure 2) over Fourier analysis? Advantages first, neither list is exhaustive …
Advantage: Improved resolution at all temporal scales. Fourier analysis only gives the cycle strength at specific intervals. And these intervals are different across the scale. For example, I have 3,174 months of sunspot data. A Fourier analysis of that data gives sine waves with periods of 9.1, 9.4, 9.8, 10.2, 10.6, 11.0, 11.5, and 12.0 years.
Periodicity analysis, on the other hand, has the same resolution at all time scales. For example, in Figure 2, the resolution is hourly. We can investigate a 25-hour cycle as easily and as accurately as the 24-hour cycle shown. (Of course, the 25-hour cycle is basically a straight line …)
Advantage: A more fine-grained dataset gives better resolution. The resolution of the Fourier Transform is a function of the length of the underlying dataset. The resolution of the PT, on the other hand, is given by the resolution of the data, not the length of the dataset.
Advantage: Shows actual cycle shapes, rather than sine waves. In Figure 2, you can see that the cycle with a periodicity of 24 is not a sine wave in any sense. Instead, it is a complex repeating waveform. And often, the shape of the wave-form resulting from the periodicity transform contains much valuable information. For example, in Figure 2, from 6AM until noon, we can see how the increasing solar radiation results in a surprisingly linear increase of temperature with time. Once that peaks, the temperature drops rapidly until 11 PM. Then the cooling slows, and continues (again surprisingly linearly) from 11PM until sunrise.
As another example, suppose that we have a triangle wave with a period of 19 and a sine wave with a period of 17. We add them together, and we get a complex wave form. Using Fourier analysis we can get the underlying sine waves making up the complex wave form … but Fourier won’t give us the triangle wave and the sine wave. Periodicity analysis does that, showing the actual shapes of the waves just as in Figure 2.
Advantage: Can sometimes find cycles Fourier can’t find. See the example here, and the discussion in Sethares and Staley.
Advantage: No “ringing” or aliasing from end effects. Fourier analysis suffers from the problem that the dataset is of finite length. This can cause “ringing” or aliasing when you go from the time domain to the frequency domain. Periodicity analysis doesn’t have these issues
Advantage: Relatively resistant to missing data. As the H&W2011 states, they’ve had to use a variant of the Fourier transform to analyze the data because of missing values. The PT doesn’t care about missing data, it just affects the error bars.
Advantage: Cycle strengths are actually measured. If the periodicity analysis say that there’s no strength in a certain cycle length, that’s not a theoretical statement. It’s a measurement of the strength of that actual cycle compared to the other cycles in the data.
Advantage: Computationally reasonably fast. The periodicity function I post below written in the computer language “R”, running on my machine (MacBook Pro) does a full periodicity transform (all cycles up to 1/3 the dataset length) on a dataset of 70,000 data points in about forty seconds. Probably could be sped up, all suggestions accepted, my programming skills in R are … well, not impressive.
Disadvantage: Periodicity cycles are neither orthogonal nor unique. There’s only one big disadvantage, which applies to the decomposition of the signal into its cyclical components. With the Fourier Transform, the sine waves that it finds are independent of each other. When you decompose the original signal into sine waves, the order in which you remove them makes no difference. With the Periodicity Transform, on the other hand, the signals are not independent. A signal with a period of ten years, for example, will also appear at twenty and thirty years and so on. As a result, the order in which you decompose the signal becomes important. See Sethares and Staley for a full discussion of decomposition methods.
A full periodicity analysis looks at the strength of the signal at all possible frequencies up to the longest practical length, which for me is a third of the length of the dataset. That gives three full cycles for the longest period. However, I don’t trust the frequencies at the longest end of the scale as much as those at the shorter end. The margin of error in a periodicity analysis is less for the shorter cycles, because it is averaging over more cycles.
So to begin the discussion, let me look at the Fourier Transform and the Periodicity Transform of the SIDC sunspot data. In the H&W2011 paper they show the following figure for the Fourier results:
Figure 3. Fourier spectrum of SIDC daily sunspot numbers.
In this, we’re seeing the problem of the lack of resolution in the Fourier Transform. The dataset is 50 years in length. So the only frequencies used by the Fourier analysis are 50/2 years, 50/3 years, 50/4 years, and so on. This only gives values at cycle lengths of around 12.5, 10, and 8.3 years. As a result, it’s missing what’s actually happening. The Fourier analysis doesn’t catch the fine detail revealed by the Periodicity analysis.
Figure 4 shows the full periodicity transform of the monthly SIDC sunspot data, showing the power contained in each cycle length from 3 to 88 years (a third of the dataset length).
Figure 4. Periodicity transform of monthly SIDC sunspot numbers. The “Power Index” is the RMS power in the cycle divided by the square root of the cycle length. Vertical dotted lines show the eleven-year cycles, vertical solid lines show the ten-year cycles.
This graph is a typical periodicity transform of a dataset containing clear cycles. The length of the cycles is shown on the bottom axis, and the strength of the cycle is shown on the vertical axis.
Now as you might expect in a sunspot analysis, the strongest underlying signal is an eleven year cycle. The second strongest signal is ten years. As mentioned above, these same cycles reappear at 20 and 22 years, 30 and 33 years, and so on. However, it is clear that the main periodicity in the sunspot record is in the cluster of frequencies right around the 11 year mark. Figure 5 shows a closeup of the cycle lengths from nine to thirteen years.:
Figure 5. Closeup of Figure 4, showing the strength of the cycles with lengths from 9 years to 13 years.
Note that in place of the single peak at around 11 years shown in the Fourier analysis, the periodicity analysis shows three clear peaks at 10 years, 11 years, and 11 years 10 months. Also, you can see the huge advantage in accuracy of the periodicity analysis over the Fourier analysis. It samples the actual cycles at a resolution of one month.
Now, before anyone points out that 11 years 10 months is the orbital period of Jupiter, yes, it is. But then ten years, and eleven years, the other two peaks, are not the orbital period of anything I know of … so that may or may not be a coincidence. In any case, it doesn’t matter whether the 11 years 10 months is Jupiter or not, any more than it matters if 10 years is the orbital period of something else. Those are just the frequencies involved to the nearest month. We’ll see below why Jupiter may not be so important.
Next, we can take another look at the sunspot data, but this time using daily sunspot data. Here are the cycles from nine to thirteen years in that dataset.
Figure 6. As in figure 5, except using daily data.
In this analysis, we see peaks at 10.1, 10.8, and 11.9 years. This analysis of daily data is much the same as the previous analysis of monthly data shown in Figure 5, albeit with greater resolution. So this should settle the size of the sunspot cycles and enshrine Jupiter in the pantheon, right?
Well … no. We’ve had the good news, here’s the bad news. The problem is that like all natural cycles, the strength of these cycles waxes and wanes over time. We can see this by looking at the periodicity transform of the first and second halves of the data individually. Figure 7 shows the periodicity analysis of the daily data seen in Figure 6, plus the identical analysis done on each half of the data individually:
Figure 7. The blue line shows the strengths of the cycles found using the entire sunspot dataset as shown in Figure 6. The other two lines are the cycles found by analyzing half of the dataset at a time.
As you can see, the strengths of the cycles of various lengths in each half of the dataset are quite dissimilar. The half-data cycles each show a single peak, not several. In one half of the data this is at 10.4 years, and in the other, 11.2 years. The same situation holds for the monthly sunspot half-datasets (not shown). The lengths of the strongest cycles in the two halves vary greatly.
Not only that, but in neither half is there any sign of the signal at 11 years 10 months, the purported signal of Jupiter.
As a result, all we can do is look at the cycles and marvel at the complexity of the sun. We can’t use the cycles of one half to predict the other half, it’s the eternal curse of those who wish to make cycle-based models of the future. Cycles appear and disappear, what seems to point to Jupiter changes and points to Saturn or to nothing at all … and meanwhile, if the fixed Fourier cycle lengths are say 8.0, 10.6, and 12.8 years or something like that, there would be little distinction between any of those situations.
However, I was unable to replicate all of their results regarding the total solar irradiance. I suspect that this is the result of the inherent inaccuracy of the Fourier method. The text of H&W2011 says:
4.1. The ACRIM TSI Time Series
Our analysis of the ACRIM TSI time series only yields the solar activity cycle (Schwabe cycle, Figure 6). The cycle length is 10.6 years. The cycle length of the corresponding time series of the sunspot number is also 10.6 years. The close agreement of both periods is obvious.
I suggest that the agreement at 10.6 years is an artifact of the limited resolution of the two Fourier analyses. The daily ACRIM dataset is a bit over 30 years, and the daily sunspot dataset that he used is 50 years of data. The Fourier frequencies for fifty years are 50/2=25, 50/3=16.7, 50/4=12.5, 50/5=10, and 50/6=8.3 year cycles. For a thirty-two year dataset, the frequencies are 32/2=16, 32/3=10.6, and 32/4=8 years. So finding a cycle of length around 10 in both datasets is not surprising.
In any case, I don’t find anything like the 10.6 year cycle they report. I find the following:
Figure 8. Periodicity analysis of the ACRIM composite daily total solar irradiance data.
Note how much less defined the TSI data is. This is a result of the large variation in TSI during the period of maximum solar activity. Figure 9 shows this variation in the underlying data for the TSI:
Figure 9. ACRIM composite TSI data used in the analysis.
When the sun is at its calmest, there is little variation in the signal. This is shown in the dark blue areas in between the peaks. But when activity increases, the output begins to fluctuate wildly. This, plus the short length of the cycle, turns the signal into mush and results in the loss of everything but the underlying ~ 11 year cycle.
Finally, let’s look at the terrestrial temperature datasets to see if there is any trace of the sunspot cycle in the global temperature record. The longest general temperature dataset that we have is the BEST land temperature dataset. Here’s the BEST periodicity analysis:
Figure 10. Full-length periodicity analysis of the BEST land temperature data.
There is a suggestion of a cycle around 26 years, with an echo at 52 years … but nothing around 10-11 years, the solar cycle. Moving on, here’s the HadCRUT3 temperature data:
Figure 11. Full-length periodicity analysis of the HadCRUT3 temperature record.
Curiously, the HadCRUT3 record doesn’t show the 26- and 52-year cycle shown by the BEST data, while it does show a number of variations not shown in the BEST data. My suspicion is that this is a result of the “scalpel” method used to assemble the BEST dataset, which cuts the records at discontinuities rather than trying to “adjust” them.
Of course, life wouldn’t be complete without the satellite records. Here are the periodicity analyses of the satellite records:
Figure 12. Periodicity analysis, RSS satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.
With only a bit more than thirty years of data, we can’t determine any cycles over about ten years. The RSS data server is down, so it’s not the most recent data.
Figure 11. Periodicity analysis, UAH satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.
As one might hope, both satellite records are quite similar. Curiously, they both show a strong cycle with a period of 3 years 8 months (along with the expected echoes at twice and three times that length, about 7 years 4 months and 11 years respectively). I have no explanation for that cycle. It may represent some unremoved cyclicity in the satellite data.
SUMMARY:
To recap the bidding:
• I’ve used the Periodicity Transform to look at the sunspot record, both daily and monthly. In both cases we find the same cycles, at ~ 10 years, ~ 11 years, and ~ 11 years 10 months. Unfortunately when the data is split in half, those cycles disappear and other cycles appear in their stead. Nature wins again.
• I’ve looked at the TSI record, which contains only a single broad peak from about 10.75 to 11.75 years.
• The TSI has a non-linear relationship to the sunspots, increasing at small sunspot numbers and decreasing a high numbers. However, the total effect (averaged 24/7 over the globe) is on the order of a quarter of a watt per square metre …
• I’ve looked at the surface temperature records (BEST and HadCRUT3, which show no peaks at around 10-11 years, and thus contain no sign of Jovian (or jovial) influence. Nor do they show any sign of solar (sunspot or TSI) related influence, for that matter.
• The satellite temperatures tell the same story. Although the data is too short to be definitive, there appears to be no sign of any major peaks in the 10-11 year range.
Anyhow, that’s my look at cycles. Why isn’t this cyclomania? For several reasons:
First, because I’m not claiming that you can model the temperature by using the cycles. That way lies madness. If you don’t think so, calculate the cycles from the first half of your data, and see if you can predict the second half. Instead of attempting to predict the future, I’m looking at the cycles to try to understand the data.
Second, I’m not blindly ascribing the cycles to some labored astronomical relationship. Given the number of lunar and planetary celestial periods, synoptic periods, and the periods of precessions, nutations, perigees, and individual and combined tidal cycles, any length of cycle can be explained.
Third, I’m using the same analysis method to look at the temperature data that I’m using on the solar phenomena (TSI, sunspots), and I’m not finding corresponding cycles. Sorry, but they are just not there. Here’s a final example. The most sensitive, responsive, and accurate global temperature observations we have are the satellite temperatures of the lower troposphere. We’ve had them for three full solar cycles at this point. So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures. Here’s that record:
Figure 12. A graph showing the effect of the sunspots on the lower tropospheric temperatures. There is a slight decrease in lower tropospheric temperature with increasing sunspots, but it is far from statistically significance.
The vagaries of the sun, whatever else they might be doing, and whatever they might be related to, do not seem to affect the global surface temperature or the global lower atmospheric temperature in any meaningful way.
Anyhow, that’s my wander through the heavenly cycles, and their lack of effect on the terrestrial cycles. My compliments to Hempelmann and Weber, their descriptions and their datasets were enough to replicate almost all of their results.
w.
DATA:
SIDC Sunspot Data here
ACRIM TSI Data, overview here, data here
Kiel Neutron Count Monthly here, link in H&W document is broken
BEST data here
Sethares paper on periodicity analysis of music is here.
Finally, I was unable to reproduce the H&W2011 results regarding MLO transmissivity. They have access to a daily dataset which is not on the web. I used the monthly MLO dataset, available here, and had no joy finding their claimed relationship with sunspots. Too bad, it’s one of the more interesting parts of the H&W2011 paper.
CODE: here’s the R function that does the heavy lifting. It’s called “periodicity” and it can be called with just the name of the dataset that you want to analyze, e.g. “periodicity(mydata)”. It has an option to produce a graph of the results. Everything after a “#” in a line is a comment. If you are running MatLab (I’m not), Sethares has provided programs and examples here. Enjoy.
# The periodicity function returns the power index showing the relative strength
# of the cycles of various lengths. The input variables are:
# tdata: the data to be analyzed
# runstart, runend: the interval to be analyzed. By default from a cycle length of 2 to the dataset length / 3
# doplot: a boolean to indicate whether a plot should be drawn.
# gridlines: interval between vertical gridlines, plot only
# timeint: intervals per year (e.g. monthly data = 12) for plot only
# maintitle: title for the plat
periodicity=function(tdata,runstart=2,runend=NA,doplot=FALSE,
gridlines=10,timeint=12,
maintitle="Periodicity Analysis"){
testdata=as.vector(tdata) # insure data is a vector
datalen=length(testdata) # get data length
if (is.na(runend)) { # if largest cycle is not specified
maxdata=floor(datalen/3) # set it to the data length over three
} else { # otherwise
maxdata=runend # set it to user's value
}
answerline=matrix(NA,nrow=maxdata,ncol=1) # make empty matrix for answers
for (i in runstart:maxdata) { # for each cycle
newdata=c(testdata,rep(NA,(ceiling(length(testdata)/i)*i-length(testdata)))) # pad with NA's
cyclemeans=colMeans(matrix(newdata,ncol=i,byrow=TRUE),na.rm=TRUE) # make matrix, take column means
answerline[i]=sd(cyclemeans,na.rm=TRUE)/sqrt(length(cyclemeans)) # calculate and store power index
}
if (doplot){ # if a plot is called for
par(mgp=c(2,1,0)) # set locations of labels
timeline=c(1:(length(answerline))/timeint) #calculate times in years
plot(answerline~timeline,type="o",cex=.5,xlim=c(0,maxdata/timeint),
xlab="Cycle Length (years)",ylab="Power Index") # draw plot
title(main=maintitle) # add title
abline(v=seq(0,100,gridlines),col="gray") # add gridlines
}
answerline # return periodicity data
}
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Going on from Lief’s reply above : If the earth’s climate is sensitive to minor variations in the sun’s output, and if the sun spot record is a good proxy for this, then maybe the record can be used a different way. The sun spot record records a sequence of events with varying magnitude and irregular spacing going back at least 250 years, in effect defining a wave packet. So why not use this wave packet and look for its signature, i.e. the 250 year long irregular shape, in the climate instead of looking for periodic approximations to this data. If that pattern can be found, possible with a bit of a time lag, then well and good, but if not then this whole “cycle” thing is probably BS from beginning to end.
Willis, As I mentioned before.
Take a 1/3 length of the record find the peak periodicy, then step that 1/3 length along the whole record, see if there is any pattern in the period change.
Actually thinking about “Old faithful” what would be interesting would be to ask one of the cycle maniacs what could be causing our 91 min eruption does it have a planetary cause?
Willis,
Thanks for that. Looking at them side-by-side they look much more similar now, though the slightly different y and x axis make it a tad difficult to eyeball. Not to put more work on your shoulders, but if you could put them side by side on the same graph (with different color), it would be greatly appreciated.
AndyG55 says:
July 29, 2013 at 8:53 pm
I suspect that the Sun does not have a timing belt.
###
Maybe its just a bit loose …
This puzzles me……
The TSI Monitor seems to be a heat sensor http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/SORCE/sorce_07.php
Wouldn’t it favour IR radiation ?
“Advantage: Computationally reasonably fast.”
Come on, periodicity analysis is no match to fourier analysis in terms of efficiency so you can’t put it as advantage when comparing the two. And efficiency of algorithm is not measured in “seconds on my computer”. Periodicity analysis runs in O(n^2) at best while FFT is O(n log n). Clearly FFT has an advantage here.
Keith Minto says:
July 29, 2013 at 10:36 pm
The TSI Monitor seems to be a heat sensor … Wouldn’t it favour IR radiation ?
No, TSI measures all there is. It does that by basically letting plain sunlight of all wavelengths fall on a black surface and measuring the resulting heating. IR is about half of the incoming radiation.
The PT is a great tool to add to box. It provides quite a bit of insight into the structure of the data being analyzed, with little effort, but like the FT it is most useful when applied appropriately. I suspect that unstable higher frequency components will get washed out at higher data lengths.
The 10 year cycle is actually 9,93yrs, half the synodic (i.e. the tidally effective period) of the two largest bodies in the solar system outside the Sun itself. Fig7 doesn’t find these periods in the two halves of the sunspot data because the cycle lengths tends to cluster at around 10.38 (VEJ) or 11,86 (J) and the longer term cycle of this bi-polar behaviour won”t be captured by half the sunspot data length. The 11.07 average is rarely the actual cycle length.
tallbloke says:
July 29, 2013 at 10:56 pm
The 10 year cycle is actually 9.93yrs, half the synodic (i.e. the tidally effective period) of the two largest bodies in the solar system outside the Sun itself.
In spite of Willis’s calling the the topic of his thread ‘cycles without the mania’, it seems that the manics have wormed their way in after all.
MiCro says:
July 29, 2013 at 2:46 pm
When you homogenize and average the data into global averages of almost any kind, you loss so much.
============
The process of reducing the data to anomalies further degrades the fidelity of the signal. Searching for cycles in the processed data is highly likely to lead to spurious results unless the processing has been shown to not introduce artifacts. Has any such certification been performed for any global temperature signal?
Off the stats discussion slightly, but this information of TSI movement through the atmosphere is interesting…..
“So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures.”
I can clearly see that temperatures go the cooler the higher the sunspot number is. With all other effects affecting the Earth temperature, it may be even significant. And that’s just the first order effect, without delays or without analysing rates of change.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 29, 2013 at 11:05 pm
tallbloke says:
July 29, 2013 at 10:56 pm
The 10 year cycle is actually 9.93yrs, half the synodic (i.e. the tidally effective period) of the two largest bodies in the solar system outside the Sun itself.
In spite of Willis’s calling the the topic of his thread ‘cycles without the mania’, it seems that the manics have wormed their way in after all.
==================
may be coincidence, may not. neither possibility can be fully ruled out. thus the mania exists at both extremes. CAGW is the effect of mania. The belief that there is only one possible cause for observed events, to the exclusion of all others. Such a position is preposterous in the absence of absolute knowledge. No being with limited knowledge and a relative point of view can hope to lay claim to absolute truth.
Cause is the realm of philosophy. It is open to endless debate. If you can predict with accuracy, you are practicing science. If your prediction more closely matches the observations that alternative predictions, the debate is moot. regardless of cause, the truth is that your method is demonstrably more accurate.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 29, 2013 at 8:34 pm
The solar ‘cycle’ is, in fact, not a cycle, but a sequence of eruptions of magnetic flux which when they have run their cause leave behind a semi-random polar field as a seed for the next series of eruptions and so it goes. The Sun is not an ‘oscillator’ that runs a precise cycle.
Correct, it’s an oscillator near boundary conditions that runs to an imprecise cycle. One that never goes completely out of phase with the cycle of conjunctions of the most tidally effective planets revolving around it. In fact it runs closely in phase with those conjunction cycles except for when it goes into one of it’s bicentennial sulks, like now.
Kasuha: And efficiency of algorithm is not measured in “seconds on my computer”. Periodicity analysis runs in O(n^2) at best while FFT is O(n log n). Clearly FFT has an advantage here.
What matters is the actual elapsed time in the data sets of interest. For some problems, this theoretical advantage of FFTs is trivial. It certainly does not outweigh the problems that arise with FFTs performed on irregularly spaced data of arbitrary length. Each year of extra climate data changes the frequencies estimated by the routine use of FFTs, even though the problem is the same problem. As computing machinery becomes faster and faster, the speed advantage of the FFT is restricted to longer and longer time series.
Willis: A Fourier analysis can decompose that combined waveform into a large number of superimposed sine waves.
What Fourier can’t do is to recover the sine wave and the sawtooth wave that created the waveform, while periodicity analysis can do that easily.
Just so. The Fourier analysis returns an extremely non-parsimonious representation of any signal that is not a pure summation of sine waves. A sawtooth or stair-step signal will be exactly represented by a Fourier analysis, but you would hardly guess from the large collection of non-zero coefficients that the function had a simpler representation as a saw tooth or stair step. A periodic step function (such as the high secretion rate/low secretion rate of melatonin secretion) can be simply represented by a 5 parameter function, but the Fourier representation has about 2 dozen non-zero coefficients. A PubMed search on my name will produce an example in the analysis of circadian rhythms of activity, in the Journal Statistics in Medicine. Emery Brown of Harvard has used a similar technique to model the circadian rhythm in melatonin secretion and other processes.
This is not a blanket critique of Fourier analysis or trigonometric polynomial regression (aka harmonic regression). It’s just that in some circumstances, and this may be one, there are advantages to the method that Willis has presented here.
Fred Berple says ” Cause is the realm of philosophy. It is open to endless debate. If you can predict with accuracy, you are practicing science.”
So with that in mind, I am going to ask Tallbloke how the solar cycle caused the orbit of Jupiter to be what it is?
tallbloke says:
July 29, 2013 at 11:41 pm
Correct, it’s an oscillator near boundary conditions that runs to an imprecise cycle.
It is not an oscillator at all. The solar ‘cycle’ has two parts: it convert poloidal field into toroidal field [creating sunspots] in the beginning of the cycle. The spots decay and the debris are moved to the poles by a random process to build up a new poloidal field, which eventually is advected into the sun to serve as a seed for the following ‘cycle’. The first part is rather deterministic, the second part very random. The two parts are different physical processes and not part of unified, single cycle.
One that never goes completely out of phase
Any cycle whatsoever will at various times be in phase with the sunspot ‘cycle’ [like a stopped clock being correct twice a day]. when your tidal cycle [running at a different rate] is 5 years off with respect to the sun it is ‘completely out of phase’. Then, as it goes even more and more out of phase it catches up with the sun and you hail that as success while it actually is a growing failure. As I said, the cyclomaniacs has polluted this nice thread [as they always do].
Kasuha says:
July 29, 2013 at 11:21 pm
“So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures.”
I can clearly see that temperatures go the cooler the higher the sunspot number is. With all other effects affecting the Earth temperature, it may be even significant. And that’s just the first order effect, without delays or without analysing rates of change.
There are roughly speaking, three el ninos per solar cycle. the big one occurs soon after solar minimum when the ocean goes into reverse and kicks heat out instead of absorbing it, unless there was a volcanic eruption in the previous cycle, in which case the PWP is already partially discharged. Consequently the following big la nina usually occurs near solar max. That’s why there’s often a dip in global T near solar max.
If you smooth the temperature data at 1/3 solar cycle or at the average frequency of the ENSO cycle (around 40 months) you get a good correlation between solar activity and global temperature. The amplitude isn’t that big, but this is due to the antiphase nature of ENSO surface temps and solar cycle described above. The Sun is having a large effect, but it’s hidden below the surface, most obviously in the Pacific Warm Pool.
http://woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst3sh/from:1955/mean:37/detrend:0.6/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1955/scale:0.001/offset:-0.3/mean:12
Anyway, Leif and Willis have more time to spend around here convincing you the planets don’t affect the Sun and the Sun doesn’t affect climate than I have to convincing you they do and it does, so I’ll return you to your normal programming.
Do not adjust your mindset.
jimmi_the_dalek says:
July 29, 2013 at 11:53 pm
Fred Berple says ” Cause is the realm of philosophy. It is open to endless debate. If you can predict with accuracy, you are practicing science.”
So with that in mind, I am going to ask Tallbloke how the solar cycle caused the orbit of Jupiter to be what it is?
Intelligent question. By interacting with it in with the corpuscular force and the electromagnetic force and the gravitational force. All systems exhibiting cybernetic feedback have periodicities which oscillate around the mean (Think Watt Governor).
Eventually they settle into patterns which cause least perturbation (principle of least action and entropy) and minimum interference (lognormal distribution). That’s why all the planetary periodicities and the periodicity of the solar cycles fit the only lognormal distribution which reconciles linear and rotational motions (the fibonacci series)
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/a-remarkable-discovery-all-solar-system-periods-fit-the-fibonacci-series-and-the-golden-ratio/
Hmm. If the planets *do* affect the sun (and I have no opinion either way), what might mediate the effect?
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/08/05/jackpot-jupiter-and-saturn-solar-cycle-link-confirmed/
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:14 am
That’s why all the planetary periodicities and the periodicity of the solar cycles fit the only lognormal distribution which reconciles linear and rotational motions (the fibonacci series)
Since the Fibonacci series is universal this would imply that all planetary systems around any star whatsoever must follow that distribution, which we already now know that they don’t. Stellar planetary systems vary enormously and no two alike are known [although they should all be alike].
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:00 am
Any cycle whatsoever will at various times be in phase with the sunspot ‘cycle’ [like a stopped clock being correct twice a day]. when your tidal cycle [running at a different rate] is 5 years off with respect to the sun it is ‘completely out of phase’. Then, as it goes even more and more out of phase it catches up with the sun
When I said it never goes completely out of phase, I meant exactly what I said. Not that it ‘runs past and catches up again’. Both the Solar cycle and the conjunction cycle of Venus-Earth Jupiter (the most tidally effective planets in the system) vary in length. The fact they never go completely out of phase is due to the fact the Sun and the planets are part of the same system. The Solar system. The word system necessarily implies cybernetic feedback. The Solar system is a true system.
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/rotation-solar-windspeed-adjusted.png