Cycles Without The Mania

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Are there cycles in the sun and its associated electromagnetic phenomena? Assuredly. What are the lengths of the cycles? Well, there’s the question. In the process of writing my recent post about cyclomania, I came across a very interesting paper entitled Correlation Between the Sunspot Number, the Total Solar Irradiance, and the Terrestrial Insolation by Hempelmann and Weber, hereinafter H&W2011. It struck me as a reasonable look at cycles without the mania, so I thought I’d discuss it here.

The authors have used Fourier analysis to determine the cycle lengths of several related datasets. The datasets used were the sunspot count, the total solar irradiance (TSI), the Kiel neutron count (cosmic rays), the Geomagnetic aa index, and the Mauna Loa insolation. One of their interesting results is the relationship between the sunspot number, and the total solar irradiation (TSI). I always thought that the TSI rose and fell with the number of sunspots, but as usual, nature is not that simple. Here is their Figure 1:

acrim tsi vs sunspot number

They speculate that at small sunspot numbers, the TSI increases. However, when the number of sunspots gets very large, the size of the black spots on the surface of the sun rises faster than the radiance, so the net radiance drops. Always more to learn … I’ve replicated their results, and determined that the curve they show is quite close to the Gaussian average of the data.

Next, they give the Fourier spectra for a variety of datasets. I find that for many purposes, there is a better alternative than Fourier analysis for understanding the makeup of a complex waveform or a time-series of natural observations. Let me explain the advantages of an alternative to the Fourier Transform, which is called the Periodicity Transform, developed by Sethares and Staley.

I realized in the writing of this post that in climate science we have a very common example of a periodicity transform (PT). This is the analysis of temperature data to give us the “climatology”, which is the monthly average temperature curve. What we are doing is projecting a long string of monthly data onto a periodic space, which repeats with a cycle length of 12. Then we take the average of each of those twelve columns of monthly data, and that’s the annual cycle. That’s a periodicity analysis, with a cycle length of 12.

By extension, we can do the same thing for a cycle length of 13 months, or 160 months. In each case, we will get the actual cycle in the data with that particular cycle length.

So given a dataset, we can look at cycles of any length in the data. The larger the swing of the cycle, of course, the more of the variation in the original data that particular cycle explains. For example, the 12-month cycle in a temperature time series explains most of the total variation in the temperature. The 13-month cycle, on the other hand, is basically nonexistent in a monthly temperature time-series.

The same is true about hourly data. We can use a periodicity transform (PT) to look at a 24-hour cycle. Here’s the 24-hour cycle for where I live:

santa rosa diurnal temperature

Figure 2. Average hourly temperatures, Santa Rosa, California. This is a periodicity transform of the original hourly time series, with a period of 24.

Now, we can do a “goodness-of-fit” analysis of any given cycle against the original observational time series. There are several ways to measure that. If we’re only interested in a relative index of the fit of cycles of various lengths, we can use the root-mean-square power in the signals. Another would be to calculate the R^2 of the cycle and the original signal. The choice is not critical, because we’re looking for the strongest signal regardless of how it’s measured. I use a “Power Index” which is the RMS power in the signal, divided by the square root of the length of the signal. In the original Sethares and Staley paper, this is called a “gamma correction”. It is a relative measurement, valid only to compare the cycles within a given dataset.

So … what are the advantages and disadvantages of periodicity analysis (Figure 2) over Fourier analysis? Advantages first, neither list is exhaustive …

Advantage: Improved resolution at all temporal scales. Fourier analysis only gives the cycle strength at specific intervals. And these intervals are different across the scale. For example, I have 3,174 months of sunspot data. A Fourier analysis of that data gives sine waves with periods of 9.1, 9.4, 9.8, 10.2, 10.6, 11.0, 11.5, and 12.0 years.

Periodicity analysis, on the other hand, has the same resolution at all time scales. For example, in Figure 2, the resolution is hourly. We can investigate a 25-hour cycle as easily and as accurately as the 24-hour cycle shown. (Of course, the 25-hour cycle is basically a straight line …)

Advantage: A more fine-grained dataset gives better resolution. The resolution of the Fourier Transform is a function of the length of the underlying dataset. The resolution of the PT, on the other hand, is given by the resolution of the data, not the length of the dataset.

Advantage: Shows actual cycle shapes, rather than sine waves. In Figure 2, you can see that the cycle with a periodicity of 24 is not a sine wave in any sense. Instead, it is a complex repeating waveform. And often, the shape of the wave-form resulting from the periodicity transform contains much valuable information. For example, in Figure 2, from 6AM until noon, we can see how the increasing solar radiation results in a surprisingly linear increase of temperature with time. Once that peaks, the temperature drops rapidly until 11 PM. Then the cooling slows, and continues (again surprisingly linearly) from 11PM until sunrise.

As another example, suppose that we have a triangle wave with a period of 19 and a sine wave with a period of 17. We add them together, and we get a complex wave form. Using Fourier analysis we can get the underlying sine waves making up the complex wave form … but Fourier won’t give us the triangle wave and the sine wave. Periodicity analysis does that, showing the actual shapes of the waves just as in Figure 2.

Advantage: Can sometimes find cycles Fourier can’t find. See the example here, and the discussion in Sethares and Staley.

Advantage: No “ringing” or aliasing from end effects. Fourier analysis suffers from the problem that the dataset is of finite length. This can cause “ringing” or aliasing when you go from the time domain to the frequency domain. Periodicity analysis doesn’t have these issues

Advantage: Relatively resistant to missing data. As the H&W2011 states, they’ve had to use a variant of the Fourier transform to analyze the data because of missing values. The PT doesn’t care about missing data, it just affects the error bars.

Advantage: Cycle strengths are actually measured. If the periodicity analysis say that there’s no strength in a certain cycle length, that’s not a theoretical statement. It’s a measurement of the strength of that actual cycle compared to the other cycles in the data.

Advantage: Computationally reasonably fast. The periodicity function I post below written in the computer language “R”, running  on my machine (MacBook Pro) does a full periodicity transform (all cycles up to 1/3 the dataset length) on a dataset of 70,000 data points in about forty seconds. Probably could be sped up, all suggestions accepted, my programming skills in R are … well, not impressive.

Disadvantage: Periodicity cycles are neither orthogonal nor unique. There’s only one big disadvantage, which applies to the decomposition of the signal into its cyclical components. With the Fourier Transform, the sine waves that it finds are independent of each other. When you decompose the original signal into sine waves, the order in which you remove them makes no difference. With the Periodicity Transform, on the other hand, the signals are not independent. A signal with a period of ten years, for example, will also appear at twenty and thirty years and so on. As a result, the order in which you decompose the signal becomes important. See Sethares and Staley for a full discussion of decomposition methods.

A full periodicity analysis looks at the strength of the signal at all possible frequencies up to the longest practical length, which for me is a third of the length of the dataset. That gives three full cycles for the longest period. However, I don’t trust the frequencies at the longest end of the scale as much as those at the shorter end. The margin of error in a periodicity analysis is less for the shorter cycles, because it is averaging over more cycles.

So to begin the discussion, let me look at the Fourier Transform and the Periodicity Transform of the SIDC sunspot data. In the H&W2011 paper they show the following figure for the Fourier results:

fourier analysis sunspot number

Figure 3. Fourier spectrum of SIDC daily sunspot numbers.

In this, we’re seeing the problem of the lack of resolution in the Fourier Transform. The dataset is 50 years in length. So the only frequencies used by the Fourier analysis are 50/2 years, 50/3 years, 50/4 years, and so on. This only gives values at cycle lengths of around 12.5, 10, and 8.3 years. As a result, it’s missing what’s actually happening. The Fourier analysis doesn’t catch the fine detail revealed by the Periodicity analysis.

Figure 4 shows the full periodicity transform of the monthly SIDC sunspot data, showing the power contained in each cycle length from 3 to 88 years (a third of the dataset length).

periodicity monthly sunspot 3 to 88

Figure 4. Periodicity transform of monthly SIDC sunspot numbers. The “Power Index” is the RMS power in the cycle divided by the square root of the cycle length. Vertical dotted lines show the eleven-year cycles, vertical solid lines show the ten-year cycles.

This graph is a typical periodicity transform of a dataset containing clear cycles. The length of the cycles is shown on the bottom axis, and the strength of the cycle is shown on the vertical axis.

Now as you might expect in a sunspot analysis, the strongest underlying signal is an eleven year cycle. The second strongest signal is ten years. As mentioned above, these same cycles reappear at 20 and 22 years, 30 and 33 years, and so on. However, it is clear that the main periodicity in the sunspot record is in the cluster of frequencies right around the 11 year mark. Figure 5 shows a closeup of the cycle lengths from nine to thirteen years.:

periodicity analysis monthly sunspot count

Figure 5. Closeup of Figure 4, showing the strength of the cycles with lengths from 9 years to 13 years.

Note that in place of the single peak at around 11 years shown in the Fourier analysis, the periodicity analysis shows three clear peaks at 10 years, 11 years, and 11 years 10 months. Also, you can see the huge advantage in accuracy of the periodicity analysis over the Fourier analysis. It samples the actual cycles at a resolution of one month.

Now, before anyone points out that 11 years 10 months is the orbital period of Jupiter, yes, it is. But then ten years, and eleven years, the other two peaks, are not the orbital period of anything I know of … so that may or may not be a coincidence. In any case, it doesn’t matter whether the 11 years 10 months is Jupiter or not, any more than it matters if 10 years is the orbital period of something else. Those are just the frequencies involved to the nearest month. We’ll see below why Jupiter may not be so important.

Next, we can take another look at the sunspot data, but this time using daily sunspot data. Here are the cycles from nine to thirteen years in that dataset.

periodicity analysis daily sunspot count

Figure 6. As in figure 5, except using daily data.

In this analysis, we see peaks at 10.1, 10.8, and 11.9 years. This analysis of daily data is much the same as the previous analysis of monthly data shown in Figure 5, albeit with greater resolution. So this should settle the size of the sunspot cycles and enshrine Jupiter in the pantheon, right?

Well … no. We’ve had the good news, here’s the bad news. The problem is that like all natural cycles, the strength of these cycles waxes and wanes over time. We can see this by looking at the periodicity transform of the first and second halves of the data individually. Figure 7 shows the periodicity analysis of the daily data seen in Figure 6, plus the identical analysis done on each half of the data individually:

periodicity analysis daily sunspot plus halves

Figure 7. The blue line shows the strengths of the cycles found using the entire sunspot dataset as shown in Figure 6. The other two lines are the cycles found by analyzing half of the dataset at a time.

As you can see, the strengths of the cycles of various lengths in each half of the dataset are quite dissimilar. The half-data cycles each show a single peak, not several. In one half of the data this is at 10.4 years, and in the other, 11.2 years. The same situation holds for the monthly sunspot half-datasets (not shown). The lengths of the strongest cycles in the two halves vary greatly.

Not only that, but in neither half is there any sign of the signal at 11 years 10 months, the purported signal of Jupiter.

As a result, all we can do is look at the cycles and marvel at the complexity of the sun. We can’t use the cycles of one half to predict the other half, it’s the eternal curse of those who wish to make cycle-based models of the future. Cycles appear and disappear, what seems to point to Jupiter changes and points to Saturn or to nothing at all … and meanwhile, if the fixed Fourier cycle lengths are say 8.0, 10.6, and 12.8 years or something like that, there would be little distinction between any of those situations.

However, I was unable to replicate all of their results regarding the total solar irradiance. I suspect that this is the result of the inherent inaccuracy of the Fourier method. The text of H&W2011 says:

4.1. The ACRIM TSI Time Series

Our analysis of the ACRIM TSI time series only yields the solar activity cycle (Schwabe cycle, Figure 6). The cycle length is 10.6 years. The cycle length of the corresponding time series of the sunspot number is also 10.6 years. The close agreement of both periods is obvious.

I suggest that the agreement at 10.6 years is an artifact of the limited resolution of the two Fourier analyses. The daily ACRIM dataset is a bit over 30 years, and the daily sunspot dataset that he used is 50 years of data. The Fourier frequencies for fifty years are 50/2=25, 50/3=16.7, 50/4=12.5, 50/5=10, and 50/6=8.3 year cycles. For a thirty-two year dataset, the frequencies are 32/2=16, 32/3=10.6, and 32/4=8 years. So finding a cycle of length around 10 in both datasets is not surprising.

In any case, I don’t find anything like the 10.6 year cycle they report. I find the following:

periodicity daily tsi 9 to 13

Figure 8. Periodicity analysis of the ACRIM composite daily total solar irradiance data.

Note how much less defined the TSI data is. This is a result of the large variation in TSI during the period of maximum solar activity. Figure 9 shows this variation in the underlying data for the TSI:

acrim composite daily TSI

Figure 9. ACRIM composite TSI data used in the analysis.

When the sun is at its calmest, there is little variation in the signal. This is shown in the dark blue areas in between the peaks. But when activity increases, the output begins to fluctuate wildly. This, plus the short length of the cycle, turns the signal into mush and results in the loss of everything but the underlying ~ 11 year cycle.

Finally, let’s look at the terrestrial temperature datasets to see if there is any trace of the sunspot cycle in the global temperature record. The longest general temperature dataset that we have is the BEST land temperature dataset. Here’s the BEST periodicity analysis:

periodicity analysis BEST temperature

Figure 10. Full-length periodicity analysis of the BEST land temperature data.

There is a suggestion of a cycle around 26 years, with an echo at 52 years … but nothing around 10-11 years, the solar cycle. Moving on, here’s the HadCRUT3 temperature data:

periodicity analysis HadCRUT3 temperature

Figure 11. Full-length periodicity analysis of the HadCRUT3 temperature record.

Curiously, the HadCRUT3 record doesn’t show the 26- and 52-year cycle shown by the BEST data, while it does show a number of variations not shown in the BEST data. My suspicion is that this is a result of the “scalpel” method used to assemble the BEST dataset, which cuts the records at discontinuities rather than trying to “adjust” them.

Of course, life wouldn’t be complete without the satellite records. Here are the periodicity analyses of the satellite records:

periodicity analysis RSS temperature

Figure 12. Periodicity analysis, RSS satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.

With only a bit more than thirty years of data, we can’t determine any cycles over about ten years. The RSS data server is down, so it’s not the most recent data.

periodicity analysis msu uah temperature

Figure 11. Periodicity analysis, UAH satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.

As one might hope, both satellite records are quite similar. Curiously, they both show a strong cycle with a period of 3 years 8 months (along with the expected echoes at twice and three times that length, about 7 years 4 months and 11 years respectively). I have no explanation for that cycle. It may represent some unremoved cyclicity in the satellite data.

SUMMARY:

To recap the bidding:

• I’ve used the Periodicity Transform to look at the sunspot record, both daily and monthly. In both cases we find the same cycles, at ~ 10 years, ~ 11 years, and ~ 11 years 10 months. Unfortunately when the data is split in half, those cycles disappear and other cycles appear in their stead. Nature wins again.

• I’ve looked at the TSI record, which contains only a single broad peak from about 10.75 to 11.75 years.

• The TSI has a non-linear relationship to the sunspots, increasing at small sunspot numbers and decreasing a high numbers. However, the total effect (averaged 24/7 over the globe) is on the order of a quarter of a watt per square metre …

• I’ve looked at the surface temperature records (BEST and HadCRUT3, which show no peaks at around 10-11 years, and thus contain no sign of Jovian (or jovial) influence. Nor do they show any sign of solar (sunspot or TSI) related influence, for that matter.

• The satellite temperatures tell the same story. Although the data is too short to be definitive, there appears to be no sign of any major peaks in the 10-11 year range.

Anyhow, that’s my look at cycles. Why isn’t this cyclomania? For several reasons:

First, because I’m not claiming that you can model the temperature by using the cycles. That way lies madness. If you don’t think so, calculate the cycles from the first half of your data, and see if you can predict the second half. Instead of attempting to predict the future, I’m looking at the cycles to try to understand the data.

Second, I’m not blindly ascribing the cycles to some labored astronomical relationship. Given the number of lunar and planetary celestial periods, synoptic periods, and the periods of precessions, nutations, perigees, and individual and combined tidal cycles, any length of cycle can be explained.

Third, I’m using the same analysis method to look at the  temperature data that I’m using on the solar phenomena (TSI, sunspots), and I’m not finding corresponding cycles. Sorry, but they are just not there. Here’s a final example. The most sensitive, responsive, and accurate global temperature observations we have are the satellite temperatures of the lower troposphere. We’ve had them for three full solar cycles at this point. So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures. Here’s that record:

scatterplot uah ltt vs sunspots

Figure 12. A graph showing the effect of the sunspots on the lower tropospheric temperatures. There is a slight decrease in lower tropospheric temperature with increasing sunspots, but it is far from statistically significance.

The vagaries of the sun, whatever else they might be doing, and whatever they might be related to, do not seem to affect the global surface temperature or the global lower atmospheric temperature in any meaningful way.

Anyhow, that’s my wander through the heavenly cycles, and their lack of effect on the terrestrial cycles. My compliments to Hempelmann and Weber, their descriptions and their datasets were enough to replicate almost all of their results.

w.

DATA:

SIDC Sunspot Data here

ACRIM TSI Data, overview here, data here

Kiel Neutron Count Monthly here, link in H&W document is broken

BEST data here

Sethares paper on periodicity analysis of music is here.

Finally, I was unable to reproduce the H&W2011 results regarding MLO transmissivity. They have access to a daily dataset which is not on the web. I used the monthly MLO dataset, available here, and had no joy finding their claimed relationship with sunspots. Too bad, it’s one of the more interesting parts of the H&W2011 paper.

CODE: here’s the R function that does the heavy lifting. It’s called “periodicity” and it can be called with just the name of the dataset that you want to analyze, e.g. “periodicity(mydata)”. It has an option to produce a graph of the results. Everything after a “#” in a line is a comment. If you are running MatLab (I’m not), Sethares has provided programs and examples here. Enjoy.

# The periodicity function returns the power index showing the relative strength

# of the cycles of various lengths. The input variables are:

#   tdata: the data to be analyzed

#   runstart, runend: the interval to be analyzed. By default from a cycle length of 2 to the dataset length / 3

#   doplot: a boolean to indicate whether a plot should be drawn.

#   gridlines: interval between vertical gridlines, plot only

#   timeint: intervals per year (e.g. monthly data = 12) for plot only

#   maintitle: title for the plat

periodicity=function(tdata,runstart=2,runend=NA,doplot=FALSE,

                  gridlines=10,timeint=12,

                  maintitle="Periodicity Analysis"){

  testdata=as.vector(tdata) # insure data is a vector

  datalen=length(testdata) # get data length

  if (is.na(runend)) { # if largest cycle is not specified

    maxdata=floor(datalen/3) # set it to the data length over three

  } else { # otherwise

    maxdata=runend # set it to user's value

  }

  answerline=matrix(NA,nrow=maxdata,ncol=1) # make empty matrix for answers

  for (i in runstart:maxdata) { # for each cycle

    newdata=c(testdata,rep(NA,(ceiling(length(testdata)/i)*i-length(testdata)))) # pad with NA's

    cyclemeans=colMeans(matrix(newdata,ncol=i,byrow=TRUE),na.rm=TRUE) # make matrix, take column means

    answerline[i]=sd(cyclemeans,na.rm=TRUE)/sqrt(length(cyclemeans)) # calculate and store power index

  }

  if (doplot){ # if a plot is called for

    par(mgp=c(2,1,0)) # set locations of labels

    timeline=c(1:(length(answerline))/timeint) #calculate times in years

    plot(answerline~timeline,type="o",cex=.5,xlim=c(0,maxdata/timeint),

         xlab="Cycle Length (years)",ylab="Power Index") # draw plot

    title(main=maintitle) # add title

    abline(v=seq(0,100,gridlines),col="gray") # add gridlines

  }

  answerline # return periodicity data

}
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Pamela Gray
August 1, 2013 9:37 am

Stephen, please site the study that shows the signal rise to be above the noise of the past 1000 years.

August 1, 2013 9:50 am

It is official, SIDC non-smoothed July SSN=57, equalling the 2012-SSN average.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/SSN.htm
SN24 max is crawling under even a lower bar then predicted by the Stanford Solar Sage.

Admin
August 1, 2013 10:04 am

After threatening me with legal action in email, which wasted my morning dealing with it, Tallbloke still won’t own up to the fact that his error in not having the correct link on his page he referenced in comments was the catalyst for the situation that led Dr. Svalgaard to say he fabricated the quote.
Svalgaard would likely never have made the claim otherwise.
TB added the link I found to his page that goes to the right place, but won’t own the mistake.
Attitude adjustment is needed here.

Pamela Gray
August 1, 2013 10:13 am

Many US states are comparing their data with the global trend and are finding it hard to say anything significant about the trend in the face of very noisy data. Here is a very good example:
http://www.nc-climate.ncsu.edu/climate/climate_change
Those who have proposed anthropogenic or solar theoretical drivers and think an overly averaged filtered trend compared to another overly averaged filtered trend used to provide some kind of proof about teleconnections should be willing to consider their views in light of climate and weather data noise. If anyone here has found significance and is willing to present error bars, please let us know. It should be forwarded to the Nobel folks.

August 1, 2013 10:20 am

Having been away from the keyborrd for a day, I’ll try to catch up.
Spence_UK says:
July 31, 2013 at 2:42 pm
any irregular (but repeated) pattern will have a related set of harmonics when transformed into the frequency domain.
The key word is ‘repeated’. I don’t think the 100-yr cycle repeats ‘enough’. If I toss a cpon and I get three heads in arow, it is a stretch to consider that a ‘repeating pattern’.
vukcevic says:
August 1, 2013 at 12:37 am
Science moves forward not by rejecting new finding
The word ‘finding’ has a rather precise meaning in science, namely the result of a valid analysis. Yours doesn’t measure up.
Anthony Watts says:
August 1, 2013 at 7:34 am
Dr. Svalgaard should withdraw the claims of being “made up” and Tallbloke should apologize for posting a misleading link and fix it on his own page.
It is possible that Tallbloke has himself been mislead by zealotry [some people are fervent believers], in which case he may have acted in what he thought was ‘good faith’. If so, my claim must be withdrawn, pending Tallbloke’s apology for posting a misleading link and fixing his own page.
Bart says:
July 31, 2013 at 1:56 pm
It trivially is.
In which case it should be trivial to demonstrate for the unwashed masses [like me] that it is and that their fit [coefficients, periods, etc] is the same as yours. I’m still waiting.

August 1, 2013 11:00 am

Pamela says
Many US states are comparing their data with the global trend and are finding it hard to say anything significant about the trend in the face of very noisy data
Pamela
the noise comes mostly from inaccuracy, before automatic recording with thermo couples instead of thermometers that were never calibrated. e.g people having to take readings, and, pray, let me know if you can find a calibration certificate of a thermometer before 1940?
I stuck to measuring after 1974 and got a nice looking curve, didn’t I?
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/29/cycles-without-the-mania/#comment-1376683
so we know what is coming.
it is cooling
and that means droughts > 40 degrees latitude lasting up to 6 or 7 years coming up in a few years from now.
I am still just trying to find out exactly how many years from now.
Stephen Wilde
what do you think of those dials on the planets’ postions(from that report from William Arnold)
all
I don’t think anyone of you here (except Stephen) figured out yet that a quiet sun is actually putting out more low wavelength radiation, meaning, the sun is slightly hotter, during a “minimum” . (Dark spots are “cool”), Makes you think, does it not, about what is happening TOA when that little bit of extra E-UV hits the atmosphere….to cause global cooling….
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1987/to:2014/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:2002/to:2014/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1987/to:2014/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:2002/to:2014/trend/plot/rss/from:1987/to:2013/plot/rss/from:2002/to:2013/trend/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1987/to:2014/plot/hadsst2gl/from:2002/to:2014/trend/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1987/to:2002/trend/plot/hadcrut3gl/from:1987/to:2002/trend/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1987/to:2002/trend/plot/rss/from:1987/to:2002/trend
don’t think that the problem of global cooling (and associated droughts when we reach the maximum speed of global cooling) will simply go away.
We are stuck with it for another 3-4 decades.

Stephen Wilde
August 1, 2013 11:16 am

[HenryP] said:
“I don’t think anyone of you here (except Stephen) figured out yet that a quiet sun is actually putting out more low wavelength radiation, meaning, the sun is slightly hotter, during a “minimum”
I don’t think I said that the sun is ‘hotter’ during a minimum although a minimum does seem to increase ozone and thereby raise stratosphere temperatures especially towards the poles.
It isn’t the total power output that matters but varying effects on the ozone creation / destruction balance due to changes in the proportions of the different types of particles and wavelengths

Stephen Wilde
August 1, 2013 11:17 am

Sorry, HenryP not Salvatore.

Pamela Gray
August 1, 2013 11:54 am

Henry, my experience in Oregon (been here for over half a century and that’s all I will say about that) tells me that temperature noise is a natural part of variability aside from error, and that intrinsically driven natural longer climate cycles can send the averaged trend line up or down (as all AGW scientists readily admit has happened in the past).
To be sure, that experience hardly qualifies me to talk about a complete cycle. But my family history does. We came over prior to the American Revolutionary War and have left our mark on the Oregon Trail. Climate swings are humbling indeed and we have experienced times of drought and plenty that would send less hardy folks crying to mommy.
But these swings, this noise (daily, weekly, monthly, and the occasional extreme event) are also instructive to the lay person who understands that averages and filters remove important information from discussions about drivers.
I will say it again, if your “driver” does not have the energy to raise or lower the status quo outside of its own error bars, you have nothing.

August 1, 2013 12:37 pm

Pamela says
have experienced times of drought
henry says
it is a physical and statistical certainty that as we are cooling from the top, lower latitudes will get more clouds and rain and higher latitudes will get less clouds and rain.Unfortunately Oregon falls >40 where I determined that less rainfall will fall during a cooling period. In fact, as we are curving down, less rainfall should already be apparent for most of Canada and the US >40, from around 2000.
Between [30] latitudes more rain and clouds will appear, hence the flooding of the Nile to an apparent maximum during a cooling period as William Arnold discovered.
The 1932-1939 drought on the Great Plains coincided with a constant cooling speed of cooling on the bottom of my curve, causing less moisture in the air due to the cooling (at higher latitude) and a lull in pressure difference (that is visible in one of the graphs I saw from Willis some time ago on pressure measurements, don’t remember which post)
Climate change is coming. It is just not man made.

August 1, 2013 1:26 pm

Tallbloke has taken the first step on his road to Damascus by including an actual quote from the paper: “We consider it a more likely possibility that the stellar angular momentum of HD 189733A has been tidally influenced by the Hot Jupiter, which has inhibited the stellar spin-down enough to enable the star to maintain the relatively high magnetic activity we observe today.(2)” but selectively omit the crucial statement just before the quote: “We can therefore exclude a stellar activity cycle to be the cause for the disagreement in activity levels”.
Newly born stars rotate rather fast [typically in a couple of days]. A vigorous stellar wind couples magnetically to the protoplanetary disk and transfers angular momentum [yes, one can do that if a physical coupling {the magnetic field} exists] to the forming planets, resulting in planets with large orbital angular momentum [AM] and a star with little rotational AM – hence its slower rotation. This ‘spin-down’ is most vigorous early in the star’s life and becomes weaker with age. For a star with age 5 billion years the rotation would ordinarily have been slowed down to a rather low value, about a month, as we can see in other stars of that age – e.g. the Sun]. If something has interfered with the spin-down, the rotation period would not be as low as expected and would look that like of a younger star [that has not spun down as much]. This seems to be the case with HD 189733A. Magnetic activity is driven by stellar rotation – faster rotation = more magnetic activity – so no wonder that HD 189733A shows more magnetic activity than expected. But as Poppenhager points out: “We can exclude a stellar activity cycle to be the cause for the disagreement in activity levels”. The Cause is more likely to be the higher than expected rotation rate, which was set earlier in the star’s life, speculatively due to tidal action [although tides usually slow down the spin, not inhibiting the slow-down].

Silver Ralph
August 1, 2013 1:41 pm

Pamela Gray says: July 31, 2013 at 5:18 pm
There appears to be some discussion of some kind of “stuff” that good ol’ Sol sends our way that we haven’t measured yet because we don’t know it exists (quantum level energies????). Irrelevant. .
_______________________________________
Nice put-down Pamela. Now do please explain to us what Dark Matter is.
I shall await your reply with interest.
.

August 1, 2013 1:44 pm

Silver Ralph says:
August 1, 2013 at 1:41 pm
Nice put-down Pamela. Now do please explain to us what Dark Matter is.
I shall await your reply with interest.

Then read this with interest http://www.leif.org/EOS/CosmicSoundWaves.pdf
We know dark matter exists, we are working on finding out what it is.

August 1, 2013 1:52 pm

Vukcevic thank you for posting the Ap Index versus surface global temperature. The correlation is there. Anyone with an objective point of view can see this.
This chart proves my argument.

August 1, 2013 1:56 pm

PAMELA you don’t have a clue.

August 1, 2013 1:56 pm

Salvatore Del Prete says:
August 1, 2013 at 1:52 pm
This chart proves my argument.
It is phoney

milodonharlani
August 1, 2013 2:03 pm

agfosterjr says:
July 31, 2013 at 1:58 pm
I beg your pardon!
IMO however plate tectonics is the hypothesis that there are plates which move by seafloor spreading. More fundamental, literally underlying causes do of course require further elucidation.
Science is still further elucidating the heliocentric theory, theory of universal gravitation, atomic theory of matter, germ theory of disease, theory of evolution, electromagnetic theory & quantum theory, too, but their basic insights remain valid, IMO.

August 1, 2013 2:07 pm

The solar parameters during the Maunder Minimum also show a correlation to temperature.
The aa index during that time was extremely low less then 3 and so were the temperatures.
People like Pamela, Leif do not understand and they will never understand thresholds, secondary solar effects, the geo magnetic side of the equation etc etc.
What makes it more sad is they have no alternative explanations, for why the temperature changes.
Pamela says noise, just as bad if not worse then AGW theory.
Live and learn, and you will as the decade proceeds and the prolonged solar minimum further exerts itself upon the climate.

August 1, 2013 2:09 pm

Leif that chart is not phony.

August 1, 2013 2:15 pm

Salvatore Del Prete says:
August 1, 2013 at 2:07 pm
The aa index during that time was extremely low less then 3 and so were the temperatures.
Do aa data from back then…
Leif that chart is not phony
would you care to tell us why not?

August 1, 2013 2:19 pm

Geomagnetic activity and wind velocity during the Maunder minimum
http://www.ann-geophys.net/15/397/1997/angeo-15-397-1997.pdf‎
•Cached

August 1, 2013 2:24 pm

The above post did not turn out correct.
My answer is we will have the answer as to how valid this chart may or may not be by decade end.
The ap index will likely be extremely low (less then 5.0, 2014-2020 ) and we will all get to see the temperature response.

August 1, 2013 2:29 pm

Salvatore Del Prete says:
August 1, 2013 at 2:19 pm
The paper is speculation: “we should point out that using these relations for the Maunder minimum is inherently speculative”
Their calculated solar wind speed is below 200 km/s. This is lower than the escape velocity of 250 km/s at the point where the solar wind takes off, so the solar wind could not even escape the Sun.

Bart
August 1, 2013 2:35 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2013 at 10:20 am
“I’m still waiting.”
It has already been demonstrated. It is trivially obvious from the entire discussion. The actual formulation is not trivial. The fact that it exists is.
I am tired of fruitless discussions with an abusive blowhard. It goes nowhere. You just don’t have the maths, and it doesn’t matter to me what you think.

August 1, 2013 2:35 pm

Salvatore Del Prete says:
August 1, 2013 at 2:24 pm
The ap index will likely be extremely low (less then 5.0, 2014-2020 )
Based on what?