Cycles Without The Mania

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Are there cycles in the sun and its associated electromagnetic phenomena? Assuredly. What are the lengths of the cycles? Well, there’s the question. In the process of writing my recent post about cyclomania, I came across a very interesting paper entitled Correlation Between the Sunspot Number, the Total Solar Irradiance, and the Terrestrial Insolation by Hempelmann and Weber, hereinafter H&W2011. It struck me as a reasonable look at cycles without the mania, so I thought I’d discuss it here.

The authors have used Fourier analysis to determine the cycle lengths of several related datasets. The datasets used were the sunspot count, the total solar irradiance (TSI), the Kiel neutron count (cosmic rays), the Geomagnetic aa index, and the Mauna Loa insolation. One of their interesting results is the relationship between the sunspot number, and the total solar irradiation (TSI). I always thought that the TSI rose and fell with the number of sunspots, but as usual, nature is not that simple. Here is their Figure 1:

acrim tsi vs sunspot number

They speculate that at small sunspot numbers, the TSI increases. However, when the number of sunspots gets very large, the size of the black spots on the surface of the sun rises faster than the radiance, so the net radiance drops. Always more to learn … I’ve replicated their results, and determined that the curve they show is quite close to the Gaussian average of the data.

Next, they give the Fourier spectra for a variety of datasets. I find that for many purposes, there is a better alternative than Fourier analysis for understanding the makeup of a complex waveform or a time-series of natural observations. Let me explain the advantages of an alternative to the Fourier Transform, which is called the Periodicity Transform, developed by Sethares and Staley.

I realized in the writing of this post that in climate science we have a very common example of a periodicity transform (PT). This is the analysis of temperature data to give us the “climatology”, which is the monthly average temperature curve. What we are doing is projecting a long string of monthly data onto a periodic space, which repeats with a cycle length of 12. Then we take the average of each of those twelve columns of monthly data, and that’s the annual cycle. That’s a periodicity analysis, with a cycle length of 12.

By extension, we can do the same thing for a cycle length of 13 months, or 160 months. In each case, we will get the actual cycle in the data with that particular cycle length.

So given a dataset, we can look at cycles of any length in the data. The larger the swing of the cycle, of course, the more of the variation in the original data that particular cycle explains. For example, the 12-month cycle in a temperature time series explains most of the total variation in the temperature. The 13-month cycle, on the other hand, is basically nonexistent in a monthly temperature time-series.

The same is true about hourly data. We can use a periodicity transform (PT) to look at a 24-hour cycle. Here’s the 24-hour cycle for where I live:

santa rosa diurnal temperature

Figure 2. Average hourly temperatures, Santa Rosa, California. This is a periodicity transform of the original hourly time series, with a period of 24.

Now, we can do a “goodness-of-fit” analysis of any given cycle against the original observational time series. There are several ways to measure that. If we’re only interested in a relative index of the fit of cycles of various lengths, we can use the root-mean-square power in the signals. Another would be to calculate the R^2 of the cycle and the original signal. The choice is not critical, because we’re looking for the strongest signal regardless of how it’s measured. I use a “Power Index” which is the RMS power in the signal, divided by the square root of the length of the signal. In the original Sethares and Staley paper, this is called a “gamma correction”. It is a relative measurement, valid only to compare the cycles within a given dataset.

So … what are the advantages and disadvantages of periodicity analysis (Figure 2) over Fourier analysis? Advantages first, neither list is exhaustive …

Advantage: Improved resolution at all temporal scales. Fourier analysis only gives the cycle strength at specific intervals. And these intervals are different across the scale. For example, I have 3,174 months of sunspot data. A Fourier analysis of that data gives sine waves with periods of 9.1, 9.4, 9.8, 10.2, 10.6, 11.0, 11.5, and 12.0 years.

Periodicity analysis, on the other hand, has the same resolution at all time scales. For example, in Figure 2, the resolution is hourly. We can investigate a 25-hour cycle as easily and as accurately as the 24-hour cycle shown. (Of course, the 25-hour cycle is basically a straight line …)

Advantage: A more fine-grained dataset gives better resolution. The resolution of the Fourier Transform is a function of the length of the underlying dataset. The resolution of the PT, on the other hand, is given by the resolution of the data, not the length of the dataset.

Advantage: Shows actual cycle shapes, rather than sine waves. In Figure 2, you can see that the cycle with a periodicity of 24 is not a sine wave in any sense. Instead, it is a complex repeating waveform. And often, the shape of the wave-form resulting from the periodicity transform contains much valuable information. For example, in Figure 2, from 6AM until noon, we can see how the increasing solar radiation results in a surprisingly linear increase of temperature with time. Once that peaks, the temperature drops rapidly until 11 PM. Then the cooling slows, and continues (again surprisingly linearly) from 11PM until sunrise.

As another example, suppose that we have a triangle wave with a period of 19 and a sine wave with a period of 17. We add them together, and we get a complex wave form. Using Fourier analysis we can get the underlying sine waves making up the complex wave form … but Fourier won’t give us the triangle wave and the sine wave. Periodicity analysis does that, showing the actual shapes of the waves just as in Figure 2.

Advantage: Can sometimes find cycles Fourier can’t find. See the example here, and the discussion in Sethares and Staley.

Advantage: No “ringing” or aliasing from end effects. Fourier analysis suffers from the problem that the dataset is of finite length. This can cause “ringing” or aliasing when you go from the time domain to the frequency domain. Periodicity analysis doesn’t have these issues

Advantage: Relatively resistant to missing data. As the H&W2011 states, they’ve had to use a variant of the Fourier transform to analyze the data because of missing values. The PT doesn’t care about missing data, it just affects the error bars.

Advantage: Cycle strengths are actually measured. If the periodicity analysis say that there’s no strength in a certain cycle length, that’s not a theoretical statement. It’s a measurement of the strength of that actual cycle compared to the other cycles in the data.

Advantage: Computationally reasonably fast. The periodicity function I post below written in the computer language “R”, running  on my machine (MacBook Pro) does a full periodicity transform (all cycles up to 1/3 the dataset length) on a dataset of 70,000 data points in about forty seconds. Probably could be sped up, all suggestions accepted, my programming skills in R are … well, not impressive.

Disadvantage: Periodicity cycles are neither orthogonal nor unique. There’s only one big disadvantage, which applies to the decomposition of the signal into its cyclical components. With the Fourier Transform, the sine waves that it finds are independent of each other. When you decompose the original signal into sine waves, the order in which you remove them makes no difference. With the Periodicity Transform, on the other hand, the signals are not independent. A signal with a period of ten years, for example, will also appear at twenty and thirty years and so on. As a result, the order in which you decompose the signal becomes important. See Sethares and Staley for a full discussion of decomposition methods.

A full periodicity analysis looks at the strength of the signal at all possible frequencies up to the longest practical length, which for me is a third of the length of the dataset. That gives three full cycles for the longest period. However, I don’t trust the frequencies at the longest end of the scale as much as those at the shorter end. The margin of error in a periodicity analysis is less for the shorter cycles, because it is averaging over more cycles.

So to begin the discussion, let me look at the Fourier Transform and the Periodicity Transform of the SIDC sunspot data. In the H&W2011 paper they show the following figure for the Fourier results:

fourier analysis sunspot number

Figure 3. Fourier spectrum of SIDC daily sunspot numbers.

In this, we’re seeing the problem of the lack of resolution in the Fourier Transform. The dataset is 50 years in length. So the only frequencies used by the Fourier analysis are 50/2 years, 50/3 years, 50/4 years, and so on. This only gives values at cycle lengths of around 12.5, 10, and 8.3 years. As a result, it’s missing what’s actually happening. The Fourier analysis doesn’t catch the fine detail revealed by the Periodicity analysis.

Figure 4 shows the full periodicity transform of the monthly SIDC sunspot data, showing the power contained in each cycle length from 3 to 88 years (a third of the dataset length).

periodicity monthly sunspot 3 to 88

Figure 4. Periodicity transform of monthly SIDC sunspot numbers. The “Power Index” is the RMS power in the cycle divided by the square root of the cycle length. Vertical dotted lines show the eleven-year cycles, vertical solid lines show the ten-year cycles.

This graph is a typical periodicity transform of a dataset containing clear cycles. The length of the cycles is shown on the bottom axis, and the strength of the cycle is shown on the vertical axis.

Now as you might expect in a sunspot analysis, the strongest underlying signal is an eleven year cycle. The second strongest signal is ten years. As mentioned above, these same cycles reappear at 20 and 22 years, 30 and 33 years, and so on. However, it is clear that the main periodicity in the sunspot record is in the cluster of frequencies right around the 11 year mark. Figure 5 shows a closeup of the cycle lengths from nine to thirteen years.:

periodicity analysis monthly sunspot count

Figure 5. Closeup of Figure 4, showing the strength of the cycles with lengths from 9 years to 13 years.

Note that in place of the single peak at around 11 years shown in the Fourier analysis, the periodicity analysis shows three clear peaks at 10 years, 11 years, and 11 years 10 months. Also, you can see the huge advantage in accuracy of the periodicity analysis over the Fourier analysis. It samples the actual cycles at a resolution of one month.

Now, before anyone points out that 11 years 10 months is the orbital period of Jupiter, yes, it is. But then ten years, and eleven years, the other two peaks, are not the orbital period of anything I know of … so that may or may not be a coincidence. In any case, it doesn’t matter whether the 11 years 10 months is Jupiter or not, any more than it matters if 10 years is the orbital period of something else. Those are just the frequencies involved to the nearest month. We’ll see below why Jupiter may not be so important.

Next, we can take another look at the sunspot data, but this time using daily sunspot data. Here are the cycles from nine to thirteen years in that dataset.

periodicity analysis daily sunspot count

Figure 6. As in figure 5, except using daily data.

In this analysis, we see peaks at 10.1, 10.8, and 11.9 years. This analysis of daily data is much the same as the previous analysis of monthly data shown in Figure 5, albeit with greater resolution. So this should settle the size of the sunspot cycles and enshrine Jupiter in the pantheon, right?

Well … no. We’ve had the good news, here’s the bad news. The problem is that like all natural cycles, the strength of these cycles waxes and wanes over time. We can see this by looking at the periodicity transform of the first and second halves of the data individually. Figure 7 shows the periodicity analysis of the daily data seen in Figure 6, plus the identical analysis done on each half of the data individually:

periodicity analysis daily sunspot plus halves

Figure 7. The blue line shows the strengths of the cycles found using the entire sunspot dataset as shown in Figure 6. The other two lines are the cycles found by analyzing half of the dataset at a time.

As you can see, the strengths of the cycles of various lengths in each half of the dataset are quite dissimilar. The half-data cycles each show a single peak, not several. In one half of the data this is at 10.4 years, and in the other, 11.2 years. The same situation holds for the monthly sunspot half-datasets (not shown). The lengths of the strongest cycles in the two halves vary greatly.

Not only that, but in neither half is there any sign of the signal at 11 years 10 months, the purported signal of Jupiter.

As a result, all we can do is look at the cycles and marvel at the complexity of the sun. We can’t use the cycles of one half to predict the other half, it’s the eternal curse of those who wish to make cycle-based models of the future. Cycles appear and disappear, what seems to point to Jupiter changes and points to Saturn or to nothing at all … and meanwhile, if the fixed Fourier cycle lengths are say 8.0, 10.6, and 12.8 years or something like that, there would be little distinction between any of those situations.

However, I was unable to replicate all of their results regarding the total solar irradiance. I suspect that this is the result of the inherent inaccuracy of the Fourier method. The text of H&W2011 says:

4.1. The ACRIM TSI Time Series

Our analysis of the ACRIM TSI time series only yields the solar activity cycle (Schwabe cycle, Figure 6). The cycle length is 10.6 years. The cycle length of the corresponding time series of the sunspot number is also 10.6 years. The close agreement of both periods is obvious.

I suggest that the agreement at 10.6 years is an artifact of the limited resolution of the two Fourier analyses. The daily ACRIM dataset is a bit over 30 years, and the daily sunspot dataset that he used is 50 years of data. The Fourier frequencies for fifty years are 50/2=25, 50/3=16.7, 50/4=12.5, 50/5=10, and 50/6=8.3 year cycles. For a thirty-two year dataset, the frequencies are 32/2=16, 32/3=10.6, and 32/4=8 years. So finding a cycle of length around 10 in both datasets is not surprising.

In any case, I don’t find anything like the 10.6 year cycle they report. I find the following:

periodicity daily tsi 9 to 13

Figure 8. Periodicity analysis of the ACRIM composite daily total solar irradiance data.

Note how much less defined the TSI data is. This is a result of the large variation in TSI during the period of maximum solar activity. Figure 9 shows this variation in the underlying data for the TSI:

acrim composite daily TSI

Figure 9. ACRIM composite TSI data used in the analysis.

When the sun is at its calmest, there is little variation in the signal. This is shown in the dark blue areas in between the peaks. But when activity increases, the output begins to fluctuate wildly. This, plus the short length of the cycle, turns the signal into mush and results in the loss of everything but the underlying ~ 11 year cycle.

Finally, let’s look at the terrestrial temperature datasets to see if there is any trace of the sunspot cycle in the global temperature record. The longest general temperature dataset that we have is the BEST land temperature dataset. Here’s the BEST periodicity analysis:

periodicity analysis BEST temperature

Figure 10. Full-length periodicity analysis of the BEST land temperature data.

There is a suggestion of a cycle around 26 years, with an echo at 52 years … but nothing around 10-11 years, the solar cycle. Moving on, here’s the HadCRUT3 temperature data:

periodicity analysis HadCRUT3 temperature

Figure 11. Full-length periodicity analysis of the HadCRUT3 temperature record.

Curiously, the HadCRUT3 record doesn’t show the 26- and 52-year cycle shown by the BEST data, while it does show a number of variations not shown in the BEST data. My suspicion is that this is a result of the “scalpel” method used to assemble the BEST dataset, which cuts the records at discontinuities rather than trying to “adjust” them.

Of course, life wouldn’t be complete without the satellite records. Here are the periodicity analyses of the satellite records:

periodicity analysis RSS temperature

Figure 12. Periodicity analysis, RSS satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.

With only a bit more than thirty years of data, we can’t determine any cycles over about ten years. The RSS data server is down, so it’s not the most recent data.

periodicity analysis msu uah temperature

Figure 11. Periodicity analysis, UAH satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.

As one might hope, both satellite records are quite similar. Curiously, they both show a strong cycle with a period of 3 years 8 months (along with the expected echoes at twice and three times that length, about 7 years 4 months and 11 years respectively). I have no explanation for that cycle. It may represent some unremoved cyclicity in the satellite data.

SUMMARY:

To recap the bidding:

• I’ve used the Periodicity Transform to look at the sunspot record, both daily and monthly. In both cases we find the same cycles, at ~ 10 years, ~ 11 years, and ~ 11 years 10 months. Unfortunately when the data is split in half, those cycles disappear and other cycles appear in their stead. Nature wins again.

• I’ve looked at the TSI record, which contains only a single broad peak from about 10.75 to 11.75 years.

• The TSI has a non-linear relationship to the sunspots, increasing at small sunspot numbers and decreasing a high numbers. However, the total effect (averaged 24/7 over the globe) is on the order of a quarter of a watt per square metre …

• I’ve looked at the surface temperature records (BEST and HadCRUT3, which show no peaks at around 10-11 years, and thus contain no sign of Jovian (or jovial) influence. Nor do they show any sign of solar (sunspot or TSI) related influence, for that matter.

• The satellite temperatures tell the same story. Although the data is too short to be definitive, there appears to be no sign of any major peaks in the 10-11 year range.

Anyhow, that’s my look at cycles. Why isn’t this cyclomania? For several reasons:

First, because I’m not claiming that you can model the temperature by using the cycles. That way lies madness. If you don’t think so, calculate the cycles from the first half of your data, and see if you can predict the second half. Instead of attempting to predict the future, I’m looking at the cycles to try to understand the data.

Second, I’m not blindly ascribing the cycles to some labored astronomical relationship. Given the number of lunar and planetary celestial periods, synoptic periods, and the periods of precessions, nutations, perigees, and individual and combined tidal cycles, any length of cycle can be explained.

Third, I’m using the same analysis method to look at the  temperature data that I’m using on the solar phenomena (TSI, sunspots), and I’m not finding corresponding cycles. Sorry, but they are just not there. Here’s a final example. The most sensitive, responsive, and accurate global temperature observations we have are the satellite temperatures of the lower troposphere. We’ve had them for three full solar cycles at this point. So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures. Here’s that record:

scatterplot uah ltt vs sunspots

Figure 12. A graph showing the effect of the sunspots on the lower tropospheric temperatures. There is a slight decrease in lower tropospheric temperature with increasing sunspots, but it is far from statistically significance.

The vagaries of the sun, whatever else they might be doing, and whatever they might be related to, do not seem to affect the global surface temperature or the global lower atmospheric temperature in any meaningful way.

Anyhow, that’s my wander through the heavenly cycles, and their lack of effect on the terrestrial cycles. My compliments to Hempelmann and Weber, their descriptions and their datasets were enough to replicate almost all of their results.

w.

DATA:

SIDC Sunspot Data here

ACRIM TSI Data, overview here, data here

Kiel Neutron Count Monthly here, link in H&W document is broken

BEST data here

Sethares paper on periodicity analysis of music is here.

Finally, I was unable to reproduce the H&W2011 results regarding MLO transmissivity. They have access to a daily dataset which is not on the web. I used the monthly MLO dataset, available here, and had no joy finding their claimed relationship with sunspots. Too bad, it’s one of the more interesting parts of the H&W2011 paper.

CODE: here’s the R function that does the heavy lifting. It’s called “periodicity” and it can be called with just the name of the dataset that you want to analyze, e.g. “periodicity(mydata)”. It has an option to produce a graph of the results. Everything after a “#” in a line is a comment. If you are running MatLab (I’m not), Sethares has provided programs and examples here. Enjoy.

# The periodicity function returns the power index showing the relative strength

# of the cycles of various lengths. The input variables are:

#   tdata: the data to be analyzed

#   runstart, runend: the interval to be analyzed. By default from a cycle length of 2 to the dataset length / 3

#   doplot: a boolean to indicate whether a plot should be drawn.

#   gridlines: interval between vertical gridlines, plot only

#   timeint: intervals per year (e.g. monthly data = 12) for plot only

#   maintitle: title for the plat

periodicity=function(tdata,runstart=2,runend=NA,doplot=FALSE,

                  gridlines=10,timeint=12,

                  maintitle="Periodicity Analysis"){

  testdata=as.vector(tdata) # insure data is a vector

  datalen=length(testdata) # get data length

  if (is.na(runend)) { # if largest cycle is not specified

    maxdata=floor(datalen/3) # set it to the data length over three

  } else { # otherwise

    maxdata=runend # set it to user's value

  }

  answerline=matrix(NA,nrow=maxdata,ncol=1) # make empty matrix for answers

  for (i in runstart:maxdata) { # for each cycle

    newdata=c(testdata,rep(NA,(ceiling(length(testdata)/i)*i-length(testdata)))) # pad with NA's

    cyclemeans=colMeans(matrix(newdata,ncol=i,byrow=TRUE),na.rm=TRUE) # make matrix, take column means

    answerline[i]=sd(cyclemeans,na.rm=TRUE)/sqrt(length(cyclemeans)) # calculate and store power index

  }

  if (doplot){ # if a plot is called for

    par(mgp=c(2,1,0)) # set locations of labels

    timeline=c(1:(length(answerline))/timeint) #calculate times in years

    plot(answerline~timeline,type="o",cex=.5,xlim=c(0,maxdata/timeint),

         xlab="Cycle Length (years)",ylab="Power Index") # draw plot

    title(main=maintitle) # add title

    abline(v=seq(0,100,gridlines),col="gray") # add gridlines

  }

  answerline # return periodicity data

}
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Henry Clark
July 31, 2013 5:49 pm

Wayne says:
July 31, 2013 at 4:17 pm
And your trendline most certainly does have a 95% CI.
To avoid misinterpretation, a simple solution is just to not display that particular trendline at all. As noted in my last post, it could have varied if fewer or more years were plotted.
So here’s the set of plots simply without that trendline at all, eliminating what you focus on and yet still making my actual point (and with other illustrations like the multiple percentage change in cloud cover in a sub-plot):
http://s23.postimg.org/qldgno07f/edited4.gif
————————
————————
Incidentally, on another topic (not commenting to you Wayne but just as another edit to my prior post for another clarification):
My plots displaying cosmic rays instead of sunspots or TSI is an important distinction especially for plots on small timescales like these, as sometimes their respective forcings even change in opposite directions instead of together. An example is a close look at the difference between 2002->2004 and 2004->2009 relative trends in the last plot in http://www.drroyspencer.com/2011/05/indirect-solar-forcing-of-climate-by-galactic-cosmic-rays-an-observational-estimate/

July 31, 2013 6:10 pm

Pamela You seem to think that cosmic rays are irrelevant,Take a little time to ponder on the following data from Steinhilber – Fig 9 in http://climatesense-norpag.blogspot.com/2013/07/skillful-so-far-thirty-year-climate.html
.
“Furthermore it is clear that the cosmic ray intensity time series reflected in the 10Be data is the best proxy for “solar activity “and that this correlates meaningfully with temperature-see Fig 3 CD from Steinhilber http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/03/30/1118965109.full.pdf

Pamela Gray
July 31, 2013 7:28 pm

Again Dr Norman Page, your focus on correlation fails at the most fundamental level. Of course these rays fluctuate. But let’s talk about weather pattern shifts that lead to warming or cooling trends. Is the cosmic ray shift from status quo to another status quo level enough of a change, and stays that way, to affect cloud seeding (or the reverse) enough to force weather patterns to shift in measurable ways? Please remember that even now, the current temperature shift has not risen above natural status quo variability. So how do you propose to state anything at all that is significant regarding solar drivers?

Jim G
July 31, 2013 7:28 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:29 am
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:14 am
That’s why all the planetary periodicities and the periodicity of the solar cycles fit the only lognormal distribution which reconciles linear and rotational motions (the fibonacci series)
“Since the Fibonacci series is universal this would imply that all planetary systems around any star whatsoever must follow that distribution, which we already now know that they don’t. Stellar planetary systems vary enormously and no two alike are known [although they should all be alike].”
Since our ‘observations’ of planetary systems around other stars are mostly based upon light fluctuations and perturbations of those other stars you might be jumping the gun with your decree.
Don’t know about the accuracy of the Fibonacci series but suspect we know less than we think we do about those distributions.

RoswellJohn
July 31, 2013 10:15 pm

LdB says: “Actually thinking about “Old faithful” what would be interesting would be to ask one of the cycle maniacs what could be causing our 91 min eruption does it have a planetary cause?”
Yes, sort of. The lunar orbital plane variation on an 18.6 year cycle. See a paper by John S. Rinehart. 18.6-Year Earth Tide Regulates Geyser Activity. Science, Vol 177, 38 July, 1972, pp346-347.
Sorry, no link, but maybe someone with access to Science archives can provide one..

LdB
July 31, 2013 10:55 pm

tallbloke says:
July 31, 2013 at 5:37 am
Leif Svalgaard is the person who needs to contact her because he’s the one accusing me of making the “[alleged statement]” up.
Sorry you are wrong I read it exactly the same way as Leif and I don’t agree with Leif on a number of issues but the context is quite clear. You want to ignore the point then fine but then stop complaining about Liefs’ interpretation which I think many of us would see as reasonable at the end of the day it’s one paper from one person who isn’t the sole authority on these things.
So contact the author make an alternative to make your argument if you have one and stop acting like a prima donna.

Stephen Wilde
July 31, 2013 10:56 pm

Pamela Gray said:
“The proper way to search for an agent or driver is to determine how much energy is needed”
Except that the energy need not come from any change in the power of the initial source.
All one needs is a change in the ability of the target to retain incoming energy.
Now I agree that cosmic rays via simple cloud seeding seem unlikely to be able to significantly affect that ability because just seeding clouds has no direct thermal effect so the existing thermal structure of the atmosphere would simply cause faster dissipation to match the faster creation.
If one wants to create clouds and retain them the thermal structure has to be changed first and cosmic rays do not achieve that.
However, we do see that the temperatures of the stratosphere and mesosphere change in response to the level of solar activity and it is that thermal change which alters the amount of cloudiness and allows the changes to remain in place until the solar conditions change again.
We know that the temperature inversion in the stratosphere is created by ozone so that is where we must look.
Solar variations somehow affect the ozone creation / destruction balance above the tropopause and solar variations are in the form of changes in wavelengths and particles rather than raw power output.
We are logically driven to the conclusion that the changes in the ozone creation / destruction balance do change the thermal structure of the atmosphere so as to allow changes in cloudiness AND to allow retention of those changes until the solar mix of particles and wavelengths changes again.
Hence my New Climate Model.

LdB
July 31, 2013 11:06 pm

Nicola Scafetta says:
July 31, 2013 at 2:32 pm
I see from your answer that you both now are understanding that your defamation attempt started to backfire
Talking of prima donna’s …. exhibit A
Come on people no criticizing his paper because that is defamation … Is this guy actually a scientist he doesn’t act like one?
I had to actually google him looks like a leopard doesn’t change it’s spots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Scafetta
=>In 2009, Scafetta faced criticism for failing to disclose the computer code required to reproduce his research.[10] Scafetta responded by saying that the code in question had been submitted to a scientific journal and that if “the journal takes its time to publish it, it is not our fault.”[10]
Shock
=>His astronomy publications, at least, are mostly in second-tier journals.
I wonder why that is.

LdB
July 31, 2013 11:15 pm

RoswellJohn says:
July 31, 2013 at 10:15 pm
LdB says: “Actually thinking about “Old faithful” what would be interesting would be to ask one of the cycle maniacs what could be causing our 91 min eruption does it have a planetary cause?”
Yes, sort of. The lunar orbital plane variation on an 18.6 year cycle. See a paper by John S. Rinehart. 18.6-Year Earth Tide Regulates Geyser Activity. Science, Vol 177, 38 July, 1972, pp346-347.
Sorry, no link, but maybe someone with access to Science archives can provide one..
It was a joke RJ … the cause of “Old faithful” cycle is well known its the time to fill the chamber with water after the eruption.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Faithful
=> It is also called the most predictable geographical feature on Earth erupting almost every 91 minutes
=>The video probes were lowered to a maximum depth of 42 feet (13 m) to observe the conduit formation and the processes that took place in the conduit.
Get it the most predictable geological cycle on earth has nothing to do with planets or cycle maniac garbage it comes about naturally by time to fill a fixed size chamber.
But like all cycle maniacs they see planetary cycles causes where there are none and what we are showing is that problem cycles can occur for very diverse reasons not just planets.

August 1, 2013 12:37 am

Leif Svalgaard says: July 31, 2013 at 11:06 am
“It is not what you know that gets you in trouble, it is what you know that ain’t”
Science moves forward not by rejecting new finding, but trying to understand it.
The new here is direct correlation of global temperature and geomagnetic Ap index:
– 1850 – 1914 with GT trailing by 6 years
– 1914 – 1965
– 1965 – 1993 with GT trailing by 3 years
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/Ap-LT.htm
Thus we have 3 distinct blocks with different DC levels, but correlation is not dependant on DC shift within each entity.
Variable delay and DC uplift between GT and geomagnetic storms may be explained by number of factors, the most likely being ocean currents velocity. Higher velocity may mean less delay and different uplift required to get all three distinct global climate blocks.
The other factor may be change in the Earth’s magnetic components since 1850s
‘Knowns’ are ‘known’, and that is not particular concern of mine.
It is ‘known unknowns’ that I find of interest and bring to your attention to elucidate based on your unquestionable volume of knowledge.
Assuming that you are scientist free of any prejudice I expect
a) you are not interested in unknown
b) investigative instinct of your early days will override point a)
Irrelevant or a nonsense claim is just not credible.

tallbloke
August 1, 2013 2:49 am

Matthew R Marler says:
July 31, 2013 at 8:40 am
Leif Svalgaard: I have collected the comments from tallbloke and myself into a narrative and posted that as a comment on his blog [he had already posted some of mine].
It would probably be of interest to many of us if you put it up somewhere and gave us a link. As long as it has everything without post-hoc editing.
I admire your stamina and detailed responses.

Actually, the comment Leif left at the talkshop was just a lengthy set of false accusations and defamatory claims that I’m a liar who fabricates quotes from scientists.
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/poppenhaeger-hd-189733a-has-been-tidally-influenced-by-the-hot-jupiter/comment-page-1/#comment-56483
I simply asked for an apology and posted the newsfeed from NASA containing the quote in response.
I await the response from Katja Poppenhaeger to Leif. Although if she confirms she made the statement that:
“This star is not acting its age, and having a big planet as a companion may be the explanation. It’s possible this hot Jupiter is keeping the star’s rotation and magnetic activity high because of tidal forces, making it behave in some ways like a much younger star.”
It might not see the light of day, given the degree of credibility Leif has invested in calling me a liar and a fabricator of quotes.
Once again I ask Dr Leif Svalgaard to withdraw and apologise for making the baseless and defamatory statements he has made about me on multiple occasions in this thread.

LdB
August 1, 2013 4:08 am

How about both you and Leif both put away the stupid personal rubbish and deal with the science.
I congratulate you on doing the sensible thing in seeking Katja Poppenhaeger to clarify her statement.
If this is typical of how climate science behaves no wonder it is in the state it is.

herkimer
August 1, 2013 5:45 am

Pamela GRAY
“The proper way to search for an agent or driver is to determine how much energy is needed to create a change in weather patterns that lead to warming or cooling trends (you can’t have warming or cooling shifts without weather pattern variation changes that lead to warming or cooling shifts).”
It takes a lot of energy to heat a house in the winter but it can take lot less energy to cool it . All i have to do is turn the electricity off or turn the gas down and the house will cool gradually and naturally and the air temperature in the house will change without a lot of extra energy
I am still waiting for your version of what cools the planet every time the sun goes through an extended minimum. It is easy to say it must be other natural factors but offer no plausible numbers . That has been the problem all along. Swearing on this blog does not enhance your argument. so please desist.

August 1, 2013 6:52 am

herkimer says:
“Cooling during the other two major minimums happened over period of some 30 years of low solar activity. So these are small changes over long periods.”
Cooling and warming all through CET is rapid and exists at least at a monthly scale, and usually relates to things like the NAO and jet stream position, which is where the solar linkage needs to be found. And also is the scale of planetary forcing of solar activity that requires confirmation.

Matthew R Marler
August 1, 2013 7:11 am

tallbloke: Once again I ask Dr Leif Svalgaard to withdraw and apologise for making the baseless and defamatory statements he has made about me on multiple occasions in this thread.
I think he over-reacted, as I wrote above, but you did misattribute the quote: it was in a press release, not the paper that you referred to.

Pamela Gray
August 1, 2013 7:14 am

The causes and amount of energy needed to keep in place or to sweep out blocking highs is one way of estimating the amount of energy needed to change weather pattern variations from one prolonged state to another. See the following newsbite on a well-respected researcher who is working with Russia on this very thing.
http://munews.missouri.edu/news-releases/2011/0920-mu-researchers-to-study-dangerous-deadly-weather-phenomenon/

August 1, 2013 7:15 am

Willis writes:
“In one half of the data this is at 10.4 years, and in the other, 11.2 years.”
How interesting, 6.5 and 7.0 synodic periods of Earth and Venus (10.391 yrs and 11.191 yrs).

Pamela Gray
August 1, 2013 7:17 am

Herkimer, your example of the house cooling when you turn off the heat is terrible. The variation in your heat source from on and then off is nothing at all like the tiny bit of variation produced by the Sun. Try again.

Admin
August 1, 2013 7:34 am

INTERVENTION:
Dr. Svalgaard, please note that the quote Tallbloke refers to DOES exist in this NASA press release:
http://www.nasa.gov/press/2013/july/nasas-chandra-sees-eclipsing-planet-in-x-rays-for-first-time/#.UfpuV6x0nRc
See the last paragraph.
It does NOT however appear in this press release:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/multimedia/exoplanet-hd-189733b.html#.Ufpt8qx0nRf
The error came about like this:

tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:06 pm
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/poppenhaeger-hd-189733a-has-been-tidally-influenced-by-the-hot-jupiter/
though it is worth quoting the author:
“This star is not acting its age, and having a big planet as a companion may be the explanation. It’s possible this hot Jupiter is keeping the star’s rotation and magnetic activity high because of tidal forces, making it behave in some ways like a much younger star.”
That link to Tallbloke’s page contains this at the bottom:
“Some further information about the HD 189733A system is given on this NASA page related to Poppenhaeger et al’s paper.”

That link goes to the NASA PR that does NOT have the quote.
So Dr. Svalgaard is correct on what was presented, the link referenced by Tallbloke did not contain the quote. But Dr. Svalgaard is incorrect in saying Tallbloke “made it up”.
Tallbloke is in error in referencing a NASA PR feed that didn’t contain the quote on his own page.
Dr. Svalgaard should withdraw the claims of being “made up” and Tallbloke should apologize for posting a misleading link and fix it on his own page.
Can we just all get along now?
This is why I don’t like threads on planetary cycles. Foodfights break out and I have to spend time to solve them.
I blame Willis for opening the Pandora’s box.

Pamela Gray
August 1, 2013 7:59 am

Stephen, your theory can be falsified. Which is good in terms of your parameters (several proposed solar theories use words like “somehow” and “[unknown] energy”). Your parameters have several falsifiable check points. But bad because the current raw temperature series is noisy with a broad range – thanks to intrinsic Earthly parameters- across your proposed solar driven changes in the upper atmospheric layers. So much so that any subtle rise in the average, regardless of the driver, is not yet significant (it is buried in the natural noise). Therefore I restate my earlier conclusion. Your theory also does not have enough energy to measurably change the system from the powerful natural intrinsic drivers of the status quo and variability to an externally driven status quo and variability.

August 1, 2013 8:00 am

Yorkshire man and a Viking fighting it out, what’s new?
Since most of us are not really bothered I suggest the offenders meet in the Virtual Pub exchange their pleasantries or otherwise over virtual beer, and let rest of us dwell over the real or imaginary causes of the climate change.

August 1, 2013 8:02 am

henry@bart
I think you are the only one here that might be able to help me, since you know about the ca. 23 year periodic cycle which is a quarter of my sinus wave. I figured this from my own results on studying maximum temps., here:
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2012/10/02/best-sine-wave-fit-for-the-drop-in-global-maximum-temperatures/
\here is the paper I referred to earlier.
http://www.cyclesresearchinstitute.org/cycles-astronomy/arnold_theory_order.pdf
where W.Arnold said
The 22-year Hale-Nicholson sunspot cycle varies from as long as circa 27 years during the sunspot minimum period, as in the years 1784-1811, to as short as circa 20.8 years during the sunspot maximum period as the recent epoch 1930s-1970s
end quote
I expect there might be some warp in my sinus wave and this is my concern. I want to know: how big is the warp/ how many years until we reach the bottom of global cooling?
We know from my own results that the last cycle in this regard was from ca. 1972 to 1995, ie. 23 years. Somehow, by looking at the dials (in Arnold’s report) we should be able to figure out how many years the next leg will be, but I don’t know how to finish this puzzle. I need this information to be able to correctly predict the time of the droughts that will definitely come again:
http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/div/ocp/drought/dust_storms.shtml

Pamela Gray
August 1, 2013 8:04 am

Reminds me of a quote from “My Fair Lady”. “I suggest you talk about the weather and your health.” But in this case, maybe we should just talk about health? LOL!

tallbloke
August 1, 2013 8:06 am

I’ve added the link to the online version of the NASA email newsfeed, thanks for finding it Anthony.

Stephen Wilde
August 1, 2013 8:46 am

Pamela Gray said:
“Therefore I restate my earlier conclusion. Your theory also does not have enough energy to measurably change the system from the powerful natural intrinsic drivers of the status quo and variability to an externally driven status quo and variability”
Given the changes observed over the past 1000 years I think the signal does rise above the noise. The climate zone shifts and jet stream changes serve as a proxy for the upper atmosphere temperature changes. Logically one cannot shift the entire global circulation latitudinally without a change in the equator to pole tropopause height.
As regards the amount of energy required I would suggest that only an energy imbalance is required. There is no need to call for a new force overcoming an existing status quo as your objection seems to require. Any changes in stratosphere temperature however small will set the negative system response in motion.