Cycles Without The Mania

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Are there cycles in the sun and its associated electromagnetic phenomena? Assuredly. What are the lengths of the cycles? Well, there’s the question. In the process of writing my recent post about cyclomania, I came across a very interesting paper entitled Correlation Between the Sunspot Number, the Total Solar Irradiance, and the Terrestrial Insolation by Hempelmann and Weber, hereinafter H&W2011. It struck me as a reasonable look at cycles without the mania, so I thought I’d discuss it here.

The authors have used Fourier analysis to determine the cycle lengths of several related datasets. The datasets used were the sunspot count, the total solar irradiance (TSI), the Kiel neutron count (cosmic rays), the Geomagnetic aa index, and the Mauna Loa insolation. One of their interesting results is the relationship between the sunspot number, and the total solar irradiation (TSI). I always thought that the TSI rose and fell with the number of sunspots, but as usual, nature is not that simple. Here is their Figure 1:

acrim tsi vs sunspot number

They speculate that at small sunspot numbers, the TSI increases. However, when the number of sunspots gets very large, the size of the black spots on the surface of the sun rises faster than the radiance, so the net radiance drops. Always more to learn … I’ve replicated their results, and determined that the curve they show is quite close to the Gaussian average of the data.

Next, they give the Fourier spectra for a variety of datasets. I find that for many purposes, there is a better alternative than Fourier analysis for understanding the makeup of a complex waveform or a time-series of natural observations. Let me explain the advantages of an alternative to the Fourier Transform, which is called the Periodicity Transform, developed by Sethares and Staley.

I realized in the writing of this post that in climate science we have a very common example of a periodicity transform (PT). This is the analysis of temperature data to give us the “climatology”, which is the monthly average temperature curve. What we are doing is projecting a long string of monthly data onto a periodic space, which repeats with a cycle length of 12. Then we take the average of each of those twelve columns of monthly data, and that’s the annual cycle. That’s a periodicity analysis, with a cycle length of 12.

By extension, we can do the same thing for a cycle length of 13 months, or 160 months. In each case, we will get the actual cycle in the data with that particular cycle length.

So given a dataset, we can look at cycles of any length in the data. The larger the swing of the cycle, of course, the more of the variation in the original data that particular cycle explains. For example, the 12-month cycle in a temperature time series explains most of the total variation in the temperature. The 13-month cycle, on the other hand, is basically nonexistent in a monthly temperature time-series.

The same is true about hourly data. We can use a periodicity transform (PT) to look at a 24-hour cycle. Here’s the 24-hour cycle for where I live:

santa rosa diurnal temperature

Figure 2. Average hourly temperatures, Santa Rosa, California. This is a periodicity transform of the original hourly time series, with a period of 24.

Now, we can do a “goodness-of-fit” analysis of any given cycle against the original observational time series. There are several ways to measure that. If we’re only interested in a relative index of the fit of cycles of various lengths, we can use the root-mean-square power in the signals. Another would be to calculate the R^2 of the cycle and the original signal. The choice is not critical, because we’re looking for the strongest signal regardless of how it’s measured. I use a “Power Index” which is the RMS power in the signal, divided by the square root of the length of the signal. In the original Sethares and Staley paper, this is called a “gamma correction”. It is a relative measurement, valid only to compare the cycles within a given dataset.

So … what are the advantages and disadvantages of periodicity analysis (Figure 2) over Fourier analysis? Advantages first, neither list is exhaustive …

Advantage: Improved resolution at all temporal scales. Fourier analysis only gives the cycle strength at specific intervals. And these intervals are different across the scale. For example, I have 3,174 months of sunspot data. A Fourier analysis of that data gives sine waves with periods of 9.1, 9.4, 9.8, 10.2, 10.6, 11.0, 11.5, and 12.0 years.

Periodicity analysis, on the other hand, has the same resolution at all time scales. For example, in Figure 2, the resolution is hourly. We can investigate a 25-hour cycle as easily and as accurately as the 24-hour cycle shown. (Of course, the 25-hour cycle is basically a straight line …)

Advantage: A more fine-grained dataset gives better resolution. The resolution of the Fourier Transform is a function of the length of the underlying dataset. The resolution of the PT, on the other hand, is given by the resolution of the data, not the length of the dataset.

Advantage: Shows actual cycle shapes, rather than sine waves. In Figure 2, you can see that the cycle with a periodicity of 24 is not a sine wave in any sense. Instead, it is a complex repeating waveform. And often, the shape of the wave-form resulting from the periodicity transform contains much valuable information. For example, in Figure 2, from 6AM until noon, we can see how the increasing solar radiation results in a surprisingly linear increase of temperature with time. Once that peaks, the temperature drops rapidly until 11 PM. Then the cooling slows, and continues (again surprisingly linearly) from 11PM until sunrise.

As another example, suppose that we have a triangle wave with a period of 19 and a sine wave with a period of 17. We add them together, and we get a complex wave form. Using Fourier analysis we can get the underlying sine waves making up the complex wave form … but Fourier won’t give us the triangle wave and the sine wave. Periodicity analysis does that, showing the actual shapes of the waves just as in Figure 2.

Advantage: Can sometimes find cycles Fourier can’t find. See the example here, and the discussion in Sethares and Staley.

Advantage: No “ringing” or aliasing from end effects. Fourier analysis suffers from the problem that the dataset is of finite length. This can cause “ringing” or aliasing when you go from the time domain to the frequency domain. Periodicity analysis doesn’t have these issues

Advantage: Relatively resistant to missing data. As the H&W2011 states, they’ve had to use a variant of the Fourier transform to analyze the data because of missing values. The PT doesn’t care about missing data, it just affects the error bars.

Advantage: Cycle strengths are actually measured. If the periodicity analysis say that there’s no strength in a certain cycle length, that’s not a theoretical statement. It’s a measurement of the strength of that actual cycle compared to the other cycles in the data.

Advantage: Computationally reasonably fast. The periodicity function I post below written in the computer language “R”, running  on my machine (MacBook Pro) does a full periodicity transform (all cycles up to 1/3 the dataset length) on a dataset of 70,000 data points in about forty seconds. Probably could be sped up, all suggestions accepted, my programming skills in R are … well, not impressive.

Disadvantage: Periodicity cycles are neither orthogonal nor unique. There’s only one big disadvantage, which applies to the decomposition of the signal into its cyclical components. With the Fourier Transform, the sine waves that it finds are independent of each other. When you decompose the original signal into sine waves, the order in which you remove them makes no difference. With the Periodicity Transform, on the other hand, the signals are not independent. A signal with a period of ten years, for example, will also appear at twenty and thirty years and so on. As a result, the order in which you decompose the signal becomes important. See Sethares and Staley for a full discussion of decomposition methods.

A full periodicity analysis looks at the strength of the signal at all possible frequencies up to the longest practical length, which for me is a third of the length of the dataset. That gives three full cycles for the longest period. However, I don’t trust the frequencies at the longest end of the scale as much as those at the shorter end. The margin of error in a periodicity analysis is less for the shorter cycles, because it is averaging over more cycles.

So to begin the discussion, let me look at the Fourier Transform and the Periodicity Transform of the SIDC sunspot data. In the H&W2011 paper they show the following figure for the Fourier results:

fourier analysis sunspot number

Figure 3. Fourier spectrum of SIDC daily sunspot numbers.

In this, we’re seeing the problem of the lack of resolution in the Fourier Transform. The dataset is 50 years in length. So the only frequencies used by the Fourier analysis are 50/2 years, 50/3 years, 50/4 years, and so on. This only gives values at cycle lengths of around 12.5, 10, and 8.3 years. As a result, it’s missing what’s actually happening. The Fourier analysis doesn’t catch the fine detail revealed by the Periodicity analysis.

Figure 4 shows the full periodicity transform of the monthly SIDC sunspot data, showing the power contained in each cycle length from 3 to 88 years (a third of the dataset length).

periodicity monthly sunspot 3 to 88

Figure 4. Periodicity transform of monthly SIDC sunspot numbers. The “Power Index” is the RMS power in the cycle divided by the square root of the cycle length. Vertical dotted lines show the eleven-year cycles, vertical solid lines show the ten-year cycles.

This graph is a typical periodicity transform of a dataset containing clear cycles. The length of the cycles is shown on the bottom axis, and the strength of the cycle is shown on the vertical axis.

Now as you might expect in a sunspot analysis, the strongest underlying signal is an eleven year cycle. The second strongest signal is ten years. As mentioned above, these same cycles reappear at 20 and 22 years, 30 and 33 years, and so on. However, it is clear that the main periodicity in the sunspot record is in the cluster of frequencies right around the 11 year mark. Figure 5 shows a closeup of the cycle lengths from nine to thirteen years.:

periodicity analysis monthly sunspot count

Figure 5. Closeup of Figure 4, showing the strength of the cycles with lengths from 9 years to 13 years.

Note that in place of the single peak at around 11 years shown in the Fourier analysis, the periodicity analysis shows three clear peaks at 10 years, 11 years, and 11 years 10 months. Also, you can see the huge advantage in accuracy of the periodicity analysis over the Fourier analysis. It samples the actual cycles at a resolution of one month.

Now, before anyone points out that 11 years 10 months is the orbital period of Jupiter, yes, it is. But then ten years, and eleven years, the other two peaks, are not the orbital period of anything I know of … so that may or may not be a coincidence. In any case, it doesn’t matter whether the 11 years 10 months is Jupiter or not, any more than it matters if 10 years is the orbital period of something else. Those are just the frequencies involved to the nearest month. We’ll see below why Jupiter may not be so important.

Next, we can take another look at the sunspot data, but this time using daily sunspot data. Here are the cycles from nine to thirteen years in that dataset.

periodicity analysis daily sunspot count

Figure 6. As in figure 5, except using daily data.

In this analysis, we see peaks at 10.1, 10.8, and 11.9 years. This analysis of daily data is much the same as the previous analysis of monthly data shown in Figure 5, albeit with greater resolution. So this should settle the size of the sunspot cycles and enshrine Jupiter in the pantheon, right?

Well … no. We’ve had the good news, here’s the bad news. The problem is that like all natural cycles, the strength of these cycles waxes and wanes over time. We can see this by looking at the periodicity transform of the first and second halves of the data individually. Figure 7 shows the periodicity analysis of the daily data seen in Figure 6, plus the identical analysis done on each half of the data individually:

periodicity analysis daily sunspot plus halves

Figure 7. The blue line shows the strengths of the cycles found using the entire sunspot dataset as shown in Figure 6. The other two lines are the cycles found by analyzing half of the dataset at a time.

As you can see, the strengths of the cycles of various lengths in each half of the dataset are quite dissimilar. The half-data cycles each show a single peak, not several. In one half of the data this is at 10.4 years, and in the other, 11.2 years. The same situation holds for the monthly sunspot half-datasets (not shown). The lengths of the strongest cycles in the two halves vary greatly.

Not only that, but in neither half is there any sign of the signal at 11 years 10 months, the purported signal of Jupiter.

As a result, all we can do is look at the cycles and marvel at the complexity of the sun. We can’t use the cycles of one half to predict the other half, it’s the eternal curse of those who wish to make cycle-based models of the future. Cycles appear and disappear, what seems to point to Jupiter changes and points to Saturn or to nothing at all … and meanwhile, if the fixed Fourier cycle lengths are say 8.0, 10.6, and 12.8 years or something like that, there would be little distinction between any of those situations.

However, I was unable to replicate all of their results regarding the total solar irradiance. I suspect that this is the result of the inherent inaccuracy of the Fourier method. The text of H&W2011 says:

4.1. The ACRIM TSI Time Series

Our analysis of the ACRIM TSI time series only yields the solar activity cycle (Schwabe cycle, Figure 6). The cycle length is 10.6 years. The cycle length of the corresponding time series of the sunspot number is also 10.6 years. The close agreement of both periods is obvious.

I suggest that the agreement at 10.6 years is an artifact of the limited resolution of the two Fourier analyses. The daily ACRIM dataset is a bit over 30 years, and the daily sunspot dataset that he used is 50 years of data. The Fourier frequencies for fifty years are 50/2=25, 50/3=16.7, 50/4=12.5, 50/5=10, and 50/6=8.3 year cycles. For a thirty-two year dataset, the frequencies are 32/2=16, 32/3=10.6, and 32/4=8 years. So finding a cycle of length around 10 in both datasets is not surprising.

In any case, I don’t find anything like the 10.6 year cycle they report. I find the following:

periodicity daily tsi 9 to 13

Figure 8. Periodicity analysis of the ACRIM composite daily total solar irradiance data.

Note how much less defined the TSI data is. This is a result of the large variation in TSI during the period of maximum solar activity. Figure 9 shows this variation in the underlying data for the TSI:

acrim composite daily TSI

Figure 9. ACRIM composite TSI data used in the analysis.

When the sun is at its calmest, there is little variation in the signal. This is shown in the dark blue areas in between the peaks. But when activity increases, the output begins to fluctuate wildly. This, plus the short length of the cycle, turns the signal into mush and results in the loss of everything but the underlying ~ 11 year cycle.

Finally, let’s look at the terrestrial temperature datasets to see if there is any trace of the sunspot cycle in the global temperature record. The longest general temperature dataset that we have is the BEST land temperature dataset. Here’s the BEST periodicity analysis:

periodicity analysis BEST temperature

Figure 10. Full-length periodicity analysis of the BEST land temperature data.

There is a suggestion of a cycle around 26 years, with an echo at 52 years … but nothing around 10-11 years, the solar cycle. Moving on, here’s the HadCRUT3 temperature data:

periodicity analysis HadCRUT3 temperature

Figure 11. Full-length periodicity analysis of the HadCRUT3 temperature record.

Curiously, the HadCRUT3 record doesn’t show the 26- and 52-year cycle shown by the BEST data, while it does show a number of variations not shown in the BEST data. My suspicion is that this is a result of the “scalpel” method used to assemble the BEST dataset, which cuts the records at discontinuities rather than trying to “adjust” them.

Of course, life wouldn’t be complete without the satellite records. Here are the periodicity analyses of the satellite records:

periodicity analysis RSS temperature

Figure 12. Periodicity analysis, RSS satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.

With only a bit more than thirty years of data, we can’t determine any cycles over about ten years. The RSS data server is down, so it’s not the most recent data.

periodicity analysis msu uah temperature

Figure 11. Periodicity analysis, UAH satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.

As one might hope, both satellite records are quite similar. Curiously, they both show a strong cycle with a period of 3 years 8 months (along with the expected echoes at twice and three times that length, about 7 years 4 months and 11 years respectively). I have no explanation for that cycle. It may represent some unremoved cyclicity in the satellite data.

SUMMARY:

To recap the bidding:

• I’ve used the Periodicity Transform to look at the sunspot record, both daily and monthly. In both cases we find the same cycles, at ~ 10 years, ~ 11 years, and ~ 11 years 10 months. Unfortunately when the data is split in half, those cycles disappear and other cycles appear in their stead. Nature wins again.

• I’ve looked at the TSI record, which contains only a single broad peak from about 10.75 to 11.75 years.

• The TSI has a non-linear relationship to the sunspots, increasing at small sunspot numbers and decreasing a high numbers. However, the total effect (averaged 24/7 over the globe) is on the order of a quarter of a watt per square metre …

• I’ve looked at the surface temperature records (BEST and HadCRUT3, which show no peaks at around 10-11 years, and thus contain no sign of Jovian (or jovial) influence. Nor do they show any sign of solar (sunspot or TSI) related influence, for that matter.

• The satellite temperatures tell the same story. Although the data is too short to be definitive, there appears to be no sign of any major peaks in the 10-11 year range.

Anyhow, that’s my look at cycles. Why isn’t this cyclomania? For several reasons:

First, because I’m not claiming that you can model the temperature by using the cycles. That way lies madness. If you don’t think so, calculate the cycles from the first half of your data, and see if you can predict the second half. Instead of attempting to predict the future, I’m looking at the cycles to try to understand the data.

Second, I’m not blindly ascribing the cycles to some labored astronomical relationship. Given the number of lunar and planetary celestial periods, synoptic periods, and the periods of precessions, nutations, perigees, and individual and combined tidal cycles, any length of cycle can be explained.

Third, I’m using the same analysis method to look at the  temperature data that I’m using on the solar phenomena (TSI, sunspots), and I’m not finding corresponding cycles. Sorry, but they are just not there. Here’s a final example. The most sensitive, responsive, and accurate global temperature observations we have are the satellite temperatures of the lower troposphere. We’ve had them for three full solar cycles at this point. So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures. Here’s that record:

scatterplot uah ltt vs sunspots

Figure 12. A graph showing the effect of the sunspots on the lower tropospheric temperatures. There is a slight decrease in lower tropospheric temperature with increasing sunspots, but it is far from statistically significance.

The vagaries of the sun, whatever else they might be doing, and whatever they might be related to, do not seem to affect the global surface temperature or the global lower atmospheric temperature in any meaningful way.

Anyhow, that’s my wander through the heavenly cycles, and their lack of effect on the terrestrial cycles. My compliments to Hempelmann and Weber, their descriptions and their datasets were enough to replicate almost all of their results.

w.

DATA:

SIDC Sunspot Data here

ACRIM TSI Data, overview here, data here

Kiel Neutron Count Monthly here, link in H&W document is broken

BEST data here

Sethares paper on periodicity analysis of music is here.

Finally, I was unable to reproduce the H&W2011 results regarding MLO transmissivity. They have access to a daily dataset which is not on the web. I used the monthly MLO dataset, available here, and had no joy finding their claimed relationship with sunspots. Too bad, it’s one of the more interesting parts of the H&W2011 paper.

CODE: here’s the R function that does the heavy lifting. It’s called “periodicity” and it can be called with just the name of the dataset that you want to analyze, e.g. “periodicity(mydata)”. It has an option to produce a graph of the results. Everything after a “#” in a line is a comment. If you are running MatLab (I’m not), Sethares has provided programs and examples here. Enjoy.

# The periodicity function returns the power index showing the relative strength

# of the cycles of various lengths. The input variables are:

#   tdata: the data to be analyzed

#   runstart, runend: the interval to be analyzed. By default from a cycle length of 2 to the dataset length / 3

#   doplot: a boolean to indicate whether a plot should be drawn.

#   gridlines: interval between vertical gridlines, plot only

#   timeint: intervals per year (e.g. monthly data = 12) for plot only

#   maintitle: title for the plat

periodicity=function(tdata,runstart=2,runend=NA,doplot=FALSE,

                  gridlines=10,timeint=12,

                  maintitle="Periodicity Analysis"){

  testdata=as.vector(tdata) # insure data is a vector

  datalen=length(testdata) # get data length

  if (is.na(runend)) { # if largest cycle is not specified

    maxdata=floor(datalen/3) # set it to the data length over three

  } else { # otherwise

    maxdata=runend # set it to user's value

  }

  answerline=matrix(NA,nrow=maxdata,ncol=1) # make empty matrix for answers

  for (i in runstart:maxdata) { # for each cycle

    newdata=c(testdata,rep(NA,(ceiling(length(testdata)/i)*i-length(testdata)))) # pad with NA's

    cyclemeans=colMeans(matrix(newdata,ncol=i,byrow=TRUE),na.rm=TRUE) # make matrix, take column means

    answerline[i]=sd(cyclemeans,na.rm=TRUE)/sqrt(length(cyclemeans)) # calculate and store power index

  }

  if (doplot){ # if a plot is called for

    par(mgp=c(2,1,0)) # set locations of labels

    timeline=c(1:(length(answerline))/timeint) #calculate times in years

    plot(answerline~timeline,type="o",cex=.5,xlim=c(0,maxdata/timeint),

         xlab="Cycle Length (years)",ylab="Power Index") # draw plot

    title(main=maintitle) # add title

    abline(v=seq(0,100,gridlines),col="gray") # add gridlines

  }

  answerline # return periodicity data

}
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July 31, 2013 11:38 am

The meridional atm. circulation in response to very low solar activity will be a big player.
I think the very high latitudes with this type of pattern may actually show slightly above normal temp. while the middle to high latitudes of the N.H. wil show the largest declines and the very low latidues very little change, but overall significant N.H. cooling.

herkimer
July 31, 2013 11:39 am

PAMELA GRAY
Instead of just making negative comments about other people’s understanding, why don’t you post your version of the correct science if you are so much superior in your knowledge . When there is deep disagreement about the science, then new ideas based on good and extensive correlation has often led to new scientific understanding. You seem to be unaware of how discoveries in science have been made in the past. Lets wait and see how the climate develops as this solar cycle winds down and we will all see whose comment was the correct one .

Henry Clark
July 31, 2013 11:41 am

The most sensitive, responsive, and accurate global temperature observations we have are the satellite temperatures of the lower troposphere. We’ve had them for three full solar cycles at this point. So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures. Here’s that record:
scatterplot uah ltt vs sunspots
Figure 12. A graph showing the effect of the sunspots on the lower tropospheric temperatures. There is a slight decrease in lower tropospheric temperature with increasing sunspots, but it is far from statistically significance.

The article doesn’t state the software used to create that plot. I can’t directly inspect whatever exact file was used to make it, to survey for errors and for exactly where that combo of a solar-temperature scatterplot and conclusions first went wrong.
But such fails verification as in the following:
Let’s illustrate what happens if trying to replicate that scatterplot. Let’s work in a more transparent and more easily verifiable manner, through public uploading of a straightforward spreadsheet creating a plot:
Except, more relevantly, I’ll use the Kiel neutron count (cosmic rays) from Eschenbach’s link as annual averages over its period of available neutron count data (1958-2007): ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/STP/SOLAR_DATA/COSMIC_RAYS/STATION_DATA/Kiel/docs/kiel.tab
For temperature, again I’ll use annual average data since monthly figures would just add extra weather noise and a vast bulk of surplus numbers needing to be handled & error-checked.
Saving me time, NCEP reanalysis global 2 meter air temperature history is given up until 2002 in annual averages as tmp2g at http://rda.ucar.edu/datasets/ds090.0/docs/papers/Tchng/temps.txt
(Although Eschenbach’s article doesn’t directly link the UAH temperature data he used, I can find UAH temperature history at http://woodfortrees.org/data/uah, but extra work would be involved in converting such to annual averages, so I’ll stick with simpler NCEP data import right now).
For the first illustration, let’s do the years from 1958 to 2002 since that is when both datasets overlap, when both are conveniently available.
So let’s import the above data into a spreadsheet (using the most common spreadsheet software, Microsoft Excel).
Here is an image of the resulting scatterplot, plus some other illustrations as well:
http://s18.postimg.org/54ua3q255/gcrtempp.gif
(Click again to enlarge).
For allowing further verification, the spreadsheet itself is uploaded at http://depositfiles.com/files/vr3twg8hs
Willis Eschenbach says:
July 30, 2013 at 7:23 pm
However, look at the size of the trend—for every hundred sunspots, the land is (supposedly) cooling by three hundredths of a degree … and max sunspots is about 200. So the maximum effect, IF it were statistically significant, is a COOLING as the sun’s activity INCREASES, of about six hundredths of a degree.
No. The scatterplot linked above in this post (which, unlike your scatterplot, includes the exact spreadsheet file used to plot it for easy verification) has a trendline of around 0.288 degrees Celsius cooling when neutron count increases by 20%. And so it has substantial warming when neutron count decreases.
As can be seen in the .xls file, that trendline is fit by the unbiased automatic feature of Microsoft Excel, so there is no bias from me there, simply what the data generates.
Decreased neutron count occurs when fewer galactic cosmic rays penetrate the interplanetary magnetic field and solar wind. There are fewer neutrons when solar activity is strong, when the sun heavily deflects GCRs. In other words, more solar activity causes fewer white reflective cooling clouds to be seeded. More solar activity causes warming.
And neutron count (cosmic ray flux) varies by a substantial percentage over the decades, let alone over the centuries, far more so than TSI which varies less.
I did the 44 years from 1958 to 2002 in this particular fast and simple illustration, since that was when those two convenient annual-average online text data files overlapped. However, additional illustrations include http://s18.postimg.org/l3973i6hk/moreadded.jpg

Jim Arndt
July 31, 2013 11:43 am

hhmmmm comment in moderation??

Spence_UK
July 31, 2013 11:53 am

@Leif
Even more curious that the subharmonics should be 4, 5, 6 … then 9. What happened to 7 and 8? Odds missing or evens missing would make sense… but 7 and 8 missing is peculiar. Of course the spectrum is less resolved at that point, but an amalgamation of several subharmonics wouldn’t sit anywhere near 99 years, it would be pulled towards the others.
Hmmm

Bart
July 31, 2013 12:04 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2013 at 10:52 am
You just don’t get it. I am not contradicting any of this. I am explaining the mathematics, and how an equivalent system which gives greater insight into the underlying dynamics can be formulated.
My demonstration above was not a model of the Sun, but a model of a simple system to explain a concept, that a change of state variables can produce an equivalent system representation which provides more insight into the fundamental properties of the system. And, when I say equivalent, I mean precisely equivalent. There exists an equivalent dynamical representation to the equations with which you are familiar which reduces to one dominated by two modes, one with a resonance period at 20 years, and one with a resonance period of 23.6 years.
An approximate system description would be one which models those two modes as a linear time invariant system as I showed here. Approximate system descriptions are the bedrock of engineering. They provide tractable models which can be easily solved, and for which global system properties can be, at least approximately, gleaned.
Whatever knowledge you have of this system, it is crippled by your lack of mathematical skill, and insistence on nevertheless playing the part of a technical prima donna.
Dr Norman Page says:
July 31, 2013 at 10:54 am
Agreed.

July 31, 2013 12:07 pm

Tuesday, July 30, 2013Skillful ( so far ) Thirty year Climate Forecast – 3 year Update and Latest Cooling Estimate.
1. Original Forecast v Reality.
In the last few months there have been numerous discussions on the WUWT site and amongst establishment scientists questioning the validity of climate models as a source of useful predictions about future temperature trends.Notably, the UK Met Office has reported on “The Recent Pause in Global Warming” for which they have no good explanation.The fact is that,as will be discussed later, their models are incorrectly structured and the modelling approach is inherently useless for making predictions.A much better approach is to recognise and project forward quasi-cyclic quasi-repetitive patterns in the temperature, oceanic sytem and solar driver data as was done in the 30 year forecast reviewed here.
Here are extracts from the original (6/18/10) 30 Year Forecast and the 2012 update which readers can check against the last 3 years of data and their own experience.
6/18/10
“The geologic record shows clearly that the sun is the main climate driver. The Milankovitch multi-millennial orbital cycles in NH insolation are firmly established in the record as are the Schwab and deVries cycles. Other millennial and decadal variations in solar activity are present in the record. TSI is not the only or even the best indicator of solar activity – variations in EUV radiation and the GCR flux (via cloud formation and earth’s albedo) seem to be more important on decadal and centennial scales . Earth’s climate is the result of complex resonances between all these solar cycles with the lunar declination cycles and endogenous earth processes.
At this time the sun has entered a quiet phase with a dramatic drop in solar magnetic field strength since 2004. This suggests the likelihood of a cooling phase on earth with Solar Cycles 21, 22 ,23 equivalent to Solar Cycles 2,3,4, and the delayed Cycle 24 comparable with Cycle 5 so that a Dalton type minimum is probable “. …………………………
“There will be a steeper temperature gradient from the tropics to the poles so that violent thunderstorms with associated flooding and tornadoes will be more frequent in the USA, At the same time the jet stream will swing more sharply North – South thus local weather in the Northern hemisphere in particular will be generally more variable with occasional more northerly heat waves and more southerly unusually cold snaps. In the USA hurricanes may strike the east coast with greater frequency in summer and storm related blizzards more common in winter.
The southern continents will be generally cooler with more frequent droughts and frost and snow in winter,
Arctic and Antarctic sea ice may react differentially to an average global cooling. We might expect sea ice to increase in the Antarctic but in the NH the Arctic

July 31, 2013 12:07 pm

Spence_UK says:
July 31, 2013 at 11:53 am
Even more curious that the subharmonics should be 4, 5, 6 … then 9….
The sun is not an oscillator so one has to be a bit careful with applying standard signal-processing concepts to the solar ‘cycle’ [this is what Bart doesn’t get]. The Sun is a messy place.

July 31, 2013 12:11 pm

Bart says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:04 pm
Whatever knowledge you have of this system, it is crippled by your lack of mathematical skill
Apart from you having no knowledge of my skill, the Sun is a messy physical place and not a ‘system’ in the engineering sense.
and insistence on nevertheless playing the part of a technical prima donna</i?
Your assessment of my part is of little or no interest.

July 31, 2013 12:15 pm

The above is a small part of what Dr. Norman Page just put forth.
Leif tell us why this just is not so. Give us an alternative explanation. You have no alternative explanation.

July 31, 2013 12:19 pm

Henry, Willis does not have a clue.

July 31, 2013 12:21 pm

I would be glad to but I will give you my argument.

July 31, 2013 12:23 pm

@henry clark
the problem here is that as we have obvious (global) cooling from the top, the differential between the equator and the poles increases. This leads to more clouds and precipitation at lower latitudes 30>x>-30 and less moisture is available for the higher latitudes >[40]. Insolation at the equator is 684 and on average it is 342, meaning the global cooling (from the top) is amplified by the cooling 30>x>-30….(deflection of sunlight by more clouds at lower latitudes)
I suspect these are the types of interactions dr. Page is talking about. How to predict cycles from the sun having an effect on the weather on earth, if we know such interactions exist? Still, I think by looking at the flooding of the Nile, William Arnold got it right, mostly.

July 31, 2013 12:23 pm

salvatore del prete says:
July 13, 2013 at 12:35 PM
I think the start of the temperature decline will commence within six months of the end of solar cycle 24 maximum and should last for at least 30+ years.
My question is how does the decline take shape, is it slow and gradual or in jagged movements as thresholds are met. I think some jagged movements then a leveling off then another jerk etc etc. Will thresholds be met?
I KNOW THEY ARE OUT THERE.
I think the maximum of solar cycle 24 ends within 6 months, and once the sun winds down from this maximum it is going to be extremely quiet.
Solar flux sub 72, although sub 90 is probably low enough.
Solar Wind sub 350 km/sec.
AP INDEX 5.0 or lower 98+ % of the time.
Solar Irradiance off .2% or greater.
UV light off upwards of 50% in the extreme short wavelengths.
This condition was largely acheived in years 2008-2010 but the number of sub- solar years of activity proceeding these readings back then was only 3 or 4 years, this time it will be over 8+ years of sub- solar activity, and no weak solar maximum will be forthcoming.
Lag times come into play mostly due to the oceans.
It is clear that the greenhouse effect ,how effective it is ,is a result of energy coming into and leaving the earth climatic system. The warmer the oceans the more effective the greenhouse effect and vice versa.
With oceans cooling in response to a decrease in solar visible light the amounts of co2/water vapor will be on the decrease thus making the greenhouse effect less effective going forward. At the same time the albedo of earth will be on the increase due to more low clouds,ice and snow cover.
ROUTE CAUSE OF THE CLIMATE TO CHANGE
Very weak solar magnetic fields, and a declining weak unstable geomagnetic field, and all the secondary feedbacks associated with this condition.
SOME SECONDARY EFFECTS WITH WEAK MAGNETIC FIELDS
weaker solar irradiance
weaker solar wind
increase in cosmic rays
increase in volcanic activity
decrease in ocean heat content
a more meridional atmospheric circulation
more La Ninas ,less El Ninos
cold Pdo /Amo
I say the start of a significant cooling period is on our doorstep, it is months away. Once solar cycle 24 maximum ends it starts.
This has happened 18 times in the past 7500 years(little ice ages and or cooling periods ) ,number 19 is going to take place now.
Two of the most recent ones are the Maunder Minimum(1645-1700) and the Dalton Minimum(1790-1830).
I say this one 2014- 2050??
Reply

July 31, 2013 12:26 pm

Henry Clark Your numbers look very good to me.They would fit well with my cooling forecast at http:// climatesense-norpag.blogspot.com – latest post.
Whatever the mechanisms behind the correlation it is perhaps the key forecasting relationship in this whole climate business.We just need Leif to figure out what the mechanisms are.

Pamela Gray
July 31, 2013 12:27 pm

That solar energy less that TSI (and all other components have less energy than TSI) cannot measurably change climate patterns is easy to refute. It takes a GREAT DEAL OF ENERGY to change climate patterns out of natural status quo variation to warmer or colder temperature shifts. That math result tells me that anything the Sun throws at us in the short or long term is not strong enough to be the driver. So the highly variable parameters intrinsic to Earth must be investigated for potential drivers of climate pattern changes. Sure enough there are a number of parameters on Earth that can build the energy necessary, slowly or rather suddenly, to shift climate patterns in the short and long term.

July 31, 2013 12:27 pm

The above post is my argument Jim Arndt.I have an explanation with specifics. I will argue this against any theory that is out there. I would more then glad to have an interview.

July 31, 2013 12:33 pm

Pamela you don’t understand thresholds and secondary solar climatic effects, so you will forever keep thinking the way you think.
The sun is the driver of the climate system, so any change in it, if it reaches a certain degree of magnitude and duration of time is going to change the climate.
Pamela what is your explanation for abrupt climatic change which has happened many many times in the past?

July 31, 2013 12:35 pm

Salvatore Del Prete says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:15 pm
Leif tell us why this just is not so.
some things are not even wrong. some things are just plain hand waving. some things are wishful thinking, some things are … Which one is yours?

July 31, 2013 12:36 pm

Pamela read my post. Also past history clearly shows solar magnetic field strength /climate connection. Also the geo magnetic field comes into play.
But the secondary effects, you just don’t get, hence your way of thinking.

July 31, 2013 12:44 pm

I am waiting for Leif to give us a comprehensive explanation (like I did) as to why the climate changes, and sometimes abruptly.
I have an explanation, with specifics and with an expected end result.

Bart
July 31, 2013 12:45 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:07 pm
“The sun is not an oscillator so one has to be a bit careful with applying standard signal-processing concepts to the solar ‘cycle’ [this is what Bart doesn’t get].”
Which is basically an admission you haven’t a clue what I have been talking about.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:11 pm
“…the Sun is a messy physical place and not a ‘system’ in the engineering sense.”
Any system which obeys the laws of nature is such in an engineering sense.

July 31, 2013 12:50 pm

Let’s not mix our arguments: long term orbital forcing (Milankovitch cycles) is one thing; short term solar forcing is another; planetary solar forcing is still another (about which NP’s site says not a word). Correlation between Milankovitch cycles and ice ages is superb; the mechanism is obvious. Correlation between sunspots and Parana River flow is about as good, but the mechanism is not obvious. Correlation between planets and the sun is highly subjective to say the least, as are proposed mechanisms.
Does correlation imply causation? Of course. Ask the rooster. The sun never comes up when he forgets to crow. Ask a Babylonian cosmologist. The morning star brings the dawn whether you can see it or not. And the dawn brings the sun on clear days. The sun never shines at night. No exceptions. Correlation is perfect and causation is implied, but no mechanism is evident. Cause should precede effect but dawn precedes sunrise. Only with a round earth is nighttime interpreted as shade.
Plate tectonics ultimately beg the question: a plastic mantle is required for drift. Wegener showed superb correlation but could not provide a convincing mechanism. A leap of faith was required for any brainwashed by the dogma that the earth was solid. Darwin suggested that nature’s selective breeding could eventually lead to speciation, and provided numerous examples where this seemed to be the case. Ultimately the argument consists of explaining shared traits: should a whale be classed with fish or with bats? Darwin removed the question from the realm of the academic to the real world, but an immutable array of flora and fauna was hardly different from a solid earth. Paradigm change requires the extinction of preconceived notions.
If one believes that every letter of the Bible was written by God, and each letter has a numerical value, it is truly amazing what equations may be “discovered,” and each discovery increases one’s confidence in the validity of the method. Kepler devoted intense study to correlating the planets’ orbits with the Platonic solids: cube, tetrahedron, etc. When math gets ahead of observation it becomes metaphysics. And people can drive a car without learning calculus and put a puzzle together without the help of a statistician. The eyeball is better than any statistical method.
Darwin and Wegener spent their lives observing, not modeling. Kepler was the quintessential modeler. He wasted more time than a climate scientist. As Kepler showed, it’s hard to distinguish between “observing” and “inventing” correlation, and I’m having trouble telling the difference here. –AGF

July 31, 2013 12:51 pm

Bart says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:45 pm
Which is basically an admission you haven’t a clue what I have been talking about.
What you have been talking about is not the Sun and has no applicability to solar activity ‘cycles’.
Any system which obeys the laws of nature is such in an engineering sense.
You are watering down the concept to the point where it is void of meaning. A better definition would that a system in an engineering sense consists of components that are designed to work together, i.e. have purpose.

milodonharlani
July 31, 2013 12:58 pm

agfosterjr says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:50 pm
You mean “raises” not “begs” the question. “Begging the question” is the name of a logical fallacy, which means essentially assuming what you intend to demonstrate.
Sorry to be didactic, but this is a growing, annoying error.

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