Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Are there cycles in the sun and its associated electromagnetic phenomena? Assuredly. What are the lengths of the cycles? Well, there’s the question. In the process of writing my recent post about cyclomania, I came across a very interesting paper entitled “Correlation Between the Sunspot Number, the Total Solar Irradiance, and the Terrestrial Insolation“ by Hempelmann and Weber, hereinafter H&W2011. It struck me as a reasonable look at cycles without the mania, so I thought I’d discuss it here.
The authors have used Fourier analysis to determine the cycle lengths of several related datasets. The datasets used were the sunspot count, the total solar irradiance (TSI), the Kiel neutron count (cosmic rays), the Geomagnetic aa index, and the Mauna Loa insolation. One of their interesting results is the relationship between the sunspot number, and the total solar irradiation (TSI). I always thought that the TSI rose and fell with the number of sunspots, but as usual, nature is not that simple. Here is their Figure 1:
They speculate that at small sunspot numbers, the TSI increases. However, when the number of sunspots gets very large, the size of the black spots on the surface of the sun rises faster than the radiance, so the net radiance drops. Always more to learn … I’ve replicated their results, and determined that the curve they show is quite close to the Gaussian average of the data.
Next, they give the Fourier spectra for a variety of datasets. I find that for many purposes, there is a better alternative than Fourier analysis for understanding the makeup of a complex waveform or a time-series of natural observations. Let me explain the advantages of an alternative to the Fourier Transform, which is called the Periodicity Transform, developed by Sethares and Staley.
I realized in the writing of this post that in climate science we have a very common example of a periodicity transform (PT). This is the analysis of temperature data to give us the “climatology”, which is the monthly average temperature curve. What we are doing is projecting a long string of monthly data onto a periodic space, which repeats with a cycle length of 12. Then we take the average of each of those twelve columns of monthly data, and that’s the annual cycle. That’s a periodicity analysis, with a cycle length of 12.
By extension, we can do the same thing for a cycle length of 13 months, or 160 months. In each case, we will get the actual cycle in the data with that particular cycle length.
So given a dataset, we can look at cycles of any length in the data. The larger the swing of the cycle, of course, the more of the variation in the original data that particular cycle explains. For example, the 12-month cycle in a temperature time series explains most of the total variation in the temperature. The 13-month cycle, on the other hand, is basically nonexistent in a monthly temperature time-series.
The same is true about hourly data. We can use a periodicity transform (PT) to look at a 24-hour cycle. Here’s the 24-hour cycle for where I live:

Figure 2. Average hourly temperatures, Santa Rosa, California. This is a periodicity transform of the original hourly time series, with a period of 24.
Now, we can do a “goodness-of-fit” analysis of any given cycle against the original observational time series. There are several ways to measure that. If we’re only interested in a relative index of the fit of cycles of various lengths, we can use the root-mean-square power in the signals. Another would be to calculate the R^2 of the cycle and the original signal. The choice is not critical, because we’re looking for the strongest signal regardless of how it’s measured. I use a “Power Index” which is the RMS power in the signal, divided by the square root of the length of the signal. In the original Sethares and Staley paper, this is called a “gamma correction”. It is a relative measurement, valid only to compare the cycles within a given dataset.
So … what are the advantages and disadvantages of periodicity analysis (Figure 2) over Fourier analysis? Advantages first, neither list is exhaustive …
Advantage: Improved resolution at all temporal scales. Fourier analysis only gives the cycle strength at specific intervals. And these intervals are different across the scale. For example, I have 3,174 months of sunspot data. A Fourier analysis of that data gives sine waves with periods of 9.1, 9.4, 9.8, 10.2, 10.6, 11.0, 11.5, and 12.0 years.
Periodicity analysis, on the other hand, has the same resolution at all time scales. For example, in Figure 2, the resolution is hourly. We can investigate a 25-hour cycle as easily and as accurately as the 24-hour cycle shown. (Of course, the 25-hour cycle is basically a straight line …)
Advantage: A more fine-grained dataset gives better resolution. The resolution of the Fourier Transform is a function of the length of the underlying dataset. The resolution of the PT, on the other hand, is given by the resolution of the data, not the length of the dataset.
Advantage: Shows actual cycle shapes, rather than sine waves. In Figure 2, you can see that the cycle with a periodicity of 24 is not a sine wave in any sense. Instead, it is a complex repeating waveform. And often, the shape of the wave-form resulting from the periodicity transform contains much valuable information. For example, in Figure 2, from 6AM until noon, we can see how the increasing solar radiation results in a surprisingly linear increase of temperature with time. Once that peaks, the temperature drops rapidly until 11 PM. Then the cooling slows, and continues (again surprisingly linearly) from 11PM until sunrise.
As another example, suppose that we have a triangle wave with a period of 19 and a sine wave with a period of 17. We add them together, and we get a complex wave form. Using Fourier analysis we can get the underlying sine waves making up the complex wave form … but Fourier won’t give us the triangle wave and the sine wave. Periodicity analysis does that, showing the actual shapes of the waves just as in Figure 2.
Advantage: Can sometimes find cycles Fourier can’t find. See the example here, and the discussion in Sethares and Staley.
Advantage: No “ringing” or aliasing from end effects. Fourier analysis suffers from the problem that the dataset is of finite length. This can cause “ringing” or aliasing when you go from the time domain to the frequency domain. Periodicity analysis doesn’t have these issues
Advantage: Relatively resistant to missing data. As the H&W2011 states, they’ve had to use a variant of the Fourier transform to analyze the data because of missing values. The PT doesn’t care about missing data, it just affects the error bars.
Advantage: Cycle strengths are actually measured. If the periodicity analysis say that there’s no strength in a certain cycle length, that’s not a theoretical statement. It’s a measurement of the strength of that actual cycle compared to the other cycles in the data.
Advantage: Computationally reasonably fast. The periodicity function I post below written in the computer language “R”, running on my machine (MacBook Pro) does a full periodicity transform (all cycles up to 1/3 the dataset length) on a dataset of 70,000 data points in about forty seconds. Probably could be sped up, all suggestions accepted, my programming skills in R are … well, not impressive.
Disadvantage: Periodicity cycles are neither orthogonal nor unique. There’s only one big disadvantage, which applies to the decomposition of the signal into its cyclical components. With the Fourier Transform, the sine waves that it finds are independent of each other. When you decompose the original signal into sine waves, the order in which you remove them makes no difference. With the Periodicity Transform, on the other hand, the signals are not independent. A signal with a period of ten years, for example, will also appear at twenty and thirty years and so on. As a result, the order in which you decompose the signal becomes important. See Sethares and Staley for a full discussion of decomposition methods.
A full periodicity analysis looks at the strength of the signal at all possible frequencies up to the longest practical length, which for me is a third of the length of the dataset. That gives three full cycles for the longest period. However, I don’t trust the frequencies at the longest end of the scale as much as those at the shorter end. The margin of error in a periodicity analysis is less for the shorter cycles, because it is averaging over more cycles.
So to begin the discussion, let me look at the Fourier Transform and the Periodicity Transform of the SIDC sunspot data. In the H&W2011 paper they show the following figure for the Fourier results:
Figure 3. Fourier spectrum of SIDC daily sunspot numbers.
In this, we’re seeing the problem of the lack of resolution in the Fourier Transform. The dataset is 50 years in length. So the only frequencies used by the Fourier analysis are 50/2 years, 50/3 years, 50/4 years, and so on. This only gives values at cycle lengths of around 12.5, 10, and 8.3 years. As a result, it’s missing what’s actually happening. The Fourier analysis doesn’t catch the fine detail revealed by the Periodicity analysis.
Figure 4 shows the full periodicity transform of the monthly SIDC sunspot data, showing the power contained in each cycle length from 3 to 88 years (a third of the dataset length).
Figure 4. Periodicity transform of monthly SIDC sunspot numbers. The “Power Index” is the RMS power in the cycle divided by the square root of the cycle length. Vertical dotted lines show the eleven-year cycles, vertical solid lines show the ten-year cycles.
This graph is a typical periodicity transform of a dataset containing clear cycles. The length of the cycles is shown on the bottom axis, and the strength of the cycle is shown on the vertical axis.
Now as you might expect in a sunspot analysis, the strongest underlying signal is an eleven year cycle. The second strongest signal is ten years. As mentioned above, these same cycles reappear at 20 and 22 years, 30 and 33 years, and so on. However, it is clear that the main periodicity in the sunspot record is in the cluster of frequencies right around the 11 year mark. Figure 5 shows a closeup of the cycle lengths from nine to thirteen years.:
Figure 5. Closeup of Figure 4, showing the strength of the cycles with lengths from 9 years to 13 years.
Note that in place of the single peak at around 11 years shown in the Fourier analysis, the periodicity analysis shows three clear peaks at 10 years, 11 years, and 11 years 10 months. Also, you can see the huge advantage in accuracy of the periodicity analysis over the Fourier analysis. It samples the actual cycles at a resolution of one month.
Now, before anyone points out that 11 years 10 months is the orbital period of Jupiter, yes, it is. But then ten years, and eleven years, the other two peaks, are not the orbital period of anything I know of … so that may or may not be a coincidence. In any case, it doesn’t matter whether the 11 years 10 months is Jupiter or not, any more than it matters if 10 years is the orbital period of something else. Those are just the frequencies involved to the nearest month. We’ll see below why Jupiter may not be so important.
Next, we can take another look at the sunspot data, but this time using daily sunspot data. Here are the cycles from nine to thirteen years in that dataset.
Figure 6. As in figure 5, except using daily data.
In this analysis, we see peaks at 10.1, 10.8, and 11.9 years. This analysis of daily data is much the same as the previous analysis of monthly data shown in Figure 5, albeit with greater resolution. So this should settle the size of the sunspot cycles and enshrine Jupiter in the pantheon, right?
Well … no. We’ve had the good news, here’s the bad news. The problem is that like all natural cycles, the strength of these cycles waxes and wanes over time. We can see this by looking at the periodicity transform of the first and second halves of the data individually. Figure 7 shows the periodicity analysis of the daily data seen in Figure 6, plus the identical analysis done on each half of the data individually:
Figure 7. The blue line shows the strengths of the cycles found using the entire sunspot dataset as shown in Figure 6. The other two lines are the cycles found by analyzing half of the dataset at a time.
As you can see, the strengths of the cycles of various lengths in each half of the dataset are quite dissimilar. The half-data cycles each show a single peak, not several. In one half of the data this is at 10.4 years, and in the other, 11.2 years. The same situation holds for the monthly sunspot half-datasets (not shown). The lengths of the strongest cycles in the two halves vary greatly.
Not only that, but in neither half is there any sign of the signal at 11 years 10 months, the purported signal of Jupiter.
As a result, all we can do is look at the cycles and marvel at the complexity of the sun. We can’t use the cycles of one half to predict the other half, it’s the eternal curse of those who wish to make cycle-based models of the future. Cycles appear and disappear, what seems to point to Jupiter changes and points to Saturn or to nothing at all … and meanwhile, if the fixed Fourier cycle lengths are say 8.0, 10.6, and 12.8 years or something like that, there would be little distinction between any of those situations.
However, I was unable to replicate all of their results regarding the total solar irradiance. I suspect that this is the result of the inherent inaccuracy of the Fourier method. The text of H&W2011 says:
4.1. The ACRIM TSI Time Series
Our analysis of the ACRIM TSI time series only yields the solar activity cycle (Schwabe cycle, Figure 6). The cycle length is 10.6 years. The cycle length of the corresponding time series of the sunspot number is also 10.6 years. The close agreement of both periods is obvious.
I suggest that the agreement at 10.6 years is an artifact of the limited resolution of the two Fourier analyses. The daily ACRIM dataset is a bit over 30 years, and the daily sunspot dataset that he used is 50 years of data. The Fourier frequencies for fifty years are 50/2=25, 50/3=16.7, 50/4=12.5, 50/5=10, and 50/6=8.3 year cycles. For a thirty-two year dataset, the frequencies are 32/2=16, 32/3=10.6, and 32/4=8 years. So finding a cycle of length around 10 in both datasets is not surprising.
In any case, I don’t find anything like the 10.6 year cycle they report. I find the following:
Figure 8. Periodicity analysis of the ACRIM composite daily total solar irradiance data.
Note how much less defined the TSI data is. This is a result of the large variation in TSI during the period of maximum solar activity. Figure 9 shows this variation in the underlying data for the TSI:
Figure 9. ACRIM composite TSI data used in the analysis.
When the sun is at its calmest, there is little variation in the signal. This is shown in the dark blue areas in between the peaks. But when activity increases, the output begins to fluctuate wildly. This, plus the short length of the cycle, turns the signal into mush and results in the loss of everything but the underlying ~ 11 year cycle.
Finally, let’s look at the terrestrial temperature datasets to see if there is any trace of the sunspot cycle in the global temperature record. The longest general temperature dataset that we have is the BEST land temperature dataset. Here’s the BEST periodicity analysis:
Figure 10. Full-length periodicity analysis of the BEST land temperature data.
There is a suggestion of a cycle around 26 years, with an echo at 52 years … but nothing around 10-11 years, the solar cycle. Moving on, here’s the HadCRUT3 temperature data:
Figure 11. Full-length periodicity analysis of the HadCRUT3 temperature record.
Curiously, the HadCRUT3 record doesn’t show the 26- and 52-year cycle shown by the BEST data, while it does show a number of variations not shown in the BEST data. My suspicion is that this is a result of the “scalpel” method used to assemble the BEST dataset, which cuts the records at discontinuities rather than trying to “adjust” them.
Of course, life wouldn’t be complete without the satellite records. Here are the periodicity analyses of the satellite records:
Figure 12. Periodicity analysis, RSS satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.
With only a bit more than thirty years of data, we can’t determine any cycles over about ten years. The RSS data server is down, so it’s not the most recent data.
Figure 11. Periodicity analysis, UAH satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.
As one might hope, both satellite records are quite similar. Curiously, they both show a strong cycle with a period of 3 years 8 months (along with the expected echoes at twice and three times that length, about 7 years 4 months and 11 years respectively). I have no explanation for that cycle. It may represent some unremoved cyclicity in the satellite data.
SUMMARY:
To recap the bidding:
• I’ve used the Periodicity Transform to look at the sunspot record, both daily and monthly. In both cases we find the same cycles, at ~ 10 years, ~ 11 years, and ~ 11 years 10 months. Unfortunately when the data is split in half, those cycles disappear and other cycles appear in their stead. Nature wins again.
• I’ve looked at the TSI record, which contains only a single broad peak from about 10.75 to 11.75 years.
• The TSI has a non-linear relationship to the sunspots, increasing at small sunspot numbers and decreasing a high numbers. However, the total effect (averaged 24/7 over the globe) is on the order of a quarter of a watt per square metre …
• I’ve looked at the surface temperature records (BEST and HadCRUT3, which show no peaks at around 10-11 years, and thus contain no sign of Jovian (or jovial) influence. Nor do they show any sign of solar (sunspot or TSI) related influence, for that matter.
• The satellite temperatures tell the same story. Although the data is too short to be definitive, there appears to be no sign of any major peaks in the 10-11 year range.
Anyhow, that’s my look at cycles. Why isn’t this cyclomania? For several reasons:
First, because I’m not claiming that you can model the temperature by using the cycles. That way lies madness. If you don’t think so, calculate the cycles from the first half of your data, and see if you can predict the second half. Instead of attempting to predict the future, I’m looking at the cycles to try to understand the data.
Second, I’m not blindly ascribing the cycles to some labored astronomical relationship. Given the number of lunar and planetary celestial periods, synoptic periods, and the periods of precessions, nutations, perigees, and individual and combined tidal cycles, any length of cycle can be explained.
Third, I’m using the same analysis method to look at the temperature data that I’m using on the solar phenomena (TSI, sunspots), and I’m not finding corresponding cycles. Sorry, but they are just not there. Here’s a final example. The most sensitive, responsive, and accurate global temperature observations we have are the satellite temperatures of the lower troposphere. We’ve had them for three full solar cycles at this point. So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures. Here’s that record:
Figure 12. A graph showing the effect of the sunspots on the lower tropospheric temperatures. There is a slight decrease in lower tropospheric temperature with increasing sunspots, but it is far from statistically significance.
The vagaries of the sun, whatever else they might be doing, and whatever they might be related to, do not seem to affect the global surface temperature or the global lower atmospheric temperature in any meaningful way.
Anyhow, that’s my wander through the heavenly cycles, and their lack of effect on the terrestrial cycles. My compliments to Hempelmann and Weber, their descriptions and their datasets were enough to replicate almost all of their results.
w.
DATA:
SIDC Sunspot Data here
ACRIM TSI Data, overview here, data here
Kiel Neutron Count Monthly here, link in H&W document is broken
BEST data here
Sethares paper on periodicity analysis of music is here.
Finally, I was unable to reproduce the H&W2011 results regarding MLO transmissivity. They have access to a daily dataset which is not on the web. I used the monthly MLO dataset, available here, and had no joy finding their claimed relationship with sunspots. Too bad, it’s one of the more interesting parts of the H&W2011 paper.
CODE: here’s the R function that does the heavy lifting. It’s called “periodicity” and it can be called with just the name of the dataset that you want to analyze, e.g. “periodicity(mydata)”. It has an option to produce a graph of the results. Everything after a “#” in a line is a comment. If you are running MatLab (I’m not), Sethares has provided programs and examples here. Enjoy.
# The periodicity function returns the power index showing the relative strength
# of the cycles of various lengths. The input variables are:
# tdata: the data to be analyzed
# runstart, runend: the interval to be analyzed. By default from a cycle length of 2 to the dataset length / 3
# doplot: a boolean to indicate whether a plot should be drawn.
# gridlines: interval between vertical gridlines, plot only
# timeint: intervals per year (e.g. monthly data = 12) for plot only
# maintitle: title for the plat
periodicity=function(tdata,runstart=2,runend=NA,doplot=FALSE,
gridlines=10,timeint=12,
maintitle="Periodicity Analysis"){
testdata=as.vector(tdata) # insure data is a vector
datalen=length(testdata) # get data length
if (is.na(runend)) { # if largest cycle is not specified
maxdata=floor(datalen/3) # set it to the data length over three
} else { # otherwise
maxdata=runend # set it to user's value
}
answerline=matrix(NA,nrow=maxdata,ncol=1) # make empty matrix for answers
for (i in runstart:maxdata) { # for each cycle
newdata=c(testdata,rep(NA,(ceiling(length(testdata)/i)*i-length(testdata)))) # pad with NA's
cyclemeans=colMeans(matrix(newdata,ncol=i,byrow=TRUE),na.rm=TRUE) # make matrix, take column means
answerline[i]=sd(cyclemeans,na.rm=TRUE)/sqrt(length(cyclemeans)) # calculate and store power index
}
if (doplot){ # if a plot is called for
par(mgp=c(2,1,0)) # set locations of labels
timeline=c(1:(length(answerline))/timeint) #calculate times in years
plot(answerline~timeline,type="o",cex=.5,xlim=c(0,maxdata/timeint),
xlab="Cycle Length (years)",ylab="Power Index") # draw plot
title(main=maintitle) # add title
abline(v=seq(0,100,gridlines),col="gray") # add gridlines
}
answerline # return periodicity data
}
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Nicola Scafetta says:
July 30, 2013 at 1:05 am
…
…
Nicola, up until you poked your head up yesterday and started attacking me, I didn’t mention your name once. Not once, not until your nasty comment. Search the thread. Not in the head post. Not in the comments. I didn’t say one single word about you until you jumped up and accused me of “trying to defame” your research.
So tell me, Nicola … how was I “trying to defame your research” when I didn’t mention your name once? Sometimes, Nicola, it’s NOT all about you.
I very carefully and very deliberately didn’t say one single damn word about you, because I didn’t want you to show up and spoil the thread with another of your childish hissy fits … and despite my efforts, you come back accusing me of trying to defame you?
Defame you? How? With secret subliminal messages? Invisible electronic ink? Coded memes hidden in the innocent-seeming innocent text about periodicity analysis?
Or perhaps it was with an outgrowth of the new field, “Climate Steganography“, where complex messages can be hidden in plain sight in graphs of the climate …
Get a grip, son, your paranoia is overtaking you, you’re starting to lose the plot. There’s no need for me or anyone else to “defame” you, you’re doing a very creditable job of that yourself.
w.
PS—You still haven’t answered the simple questions put to you. You still haven’t revealed your data or your methods. You still haven’t taken Joe Born’s test. In fact, you’re still in hiding, you haven’t done a damn thing.
So your claims of being the victim here are a sick joke. When you start acting like a scientist, honestly and transparently revealing your code and data, people will start treating you like one. Until then … not so much.
Bart says:
July 31, 2013 at 9:49 am
Let’s suppose I have a system of the form d^2/dt^2(x) + w^2 * x = 0
The problem is that the Sun is not such a system [nor the other one you peddle].
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2013 at 9:57 am
Pitiful. No skin off my nose.
Bart says:
July 31, 2013 at 9:58 am
Pitiful. No skin off my nose.
As you said: “Think whatever you like”
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2013 at 8:23 am
But show the whole series, don’t cut off the beginning and the end.
Yep, whole lot; but you would not go there (science is settled).
Well sir it is not either on Ap or the Land temperatures.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/Ap-LT.htm
What is going on there?
Looks like God is playing 60 year cycle game.
See you.
vukcevic says:
July 31, 2013 at 10:23 am
Looks like God is playing 60 year cycle game.
Looks like Vuk is playing the +/-3,4,6 game and that he has discovered global warming.
Willis , you have NO concept of solar climate relationships.
You have no concept of thresholds, which is why you cannot see the solar /climate relationships.
Worse yet you have no alternative explanations for why the climate changes abrupty and why it has switched from one climatic regime to another climate regime.
You don’t understand when certain solar parameters are not met which is the case with the so called 11 year sunspot cycle that solar changes within that cycle will be obscured by other factors , such as Pdo/Amo phase, volcanic activity, enso, ocean heat content ,,atmospheric circulation variations etc etc. Example the AO, AAO index.
You also don’t understand the number of years of active solar years prior to the start of a quiet solar period has an impact , the earth’s magnetic field role, the beginning state of the climate,lag times etc etc.
You can’t grasp if certain solar parameters are met which have a degree of magnitude strong enough and duration of time long enough that those solar paramenters and the secondary effects that come about will start to change the climate and even bring the climate to threshold conditions.
In my opinion solar conditons have not had a profound effect on the climate since we came out of the Dalton Solar Minimum. The strong solar activity in general resulting in what we essentially have now with variations plus or minus .7c due to the factors I had listed above that can obscure minor solar changes within it’s 11 year sunspot cycle..
I expected that to be the case, but since Oct 2005 the real start of this current prolonged solar minimum, this will change going forward.
Reasons why the temperature response is slow thus far are the current very weak max. of solar cycle 24, ocean heat content build up from last centuries very strong solar activity, and the limited number of sub- solar years of activity (2005) following many years of very active solar activity.
.
solar parameters needed
solar flux sub 90 to start but sub 72 needed evenually for years
solar wind sub 350 km/sec at least, probably suub 300 km/sec
ap index 5.0 or lower 90% of the time
solar irradiance off.2% UV extrem light off upwards of 50%
When those conditions are met and then if the climate does not respond ,will you, Leif ,and those who agree with your stance be correct.
Arguments all of you are making now are nonsence, and ridiculous, since solar conditions anf the secondary changes associated with those solar changes have yet to be met, which will exert an influence on the climate..
From Leif:
OK, taking out all of the ones closely associated with known physical 11 yr cycle, we are left with (in decreasing order):
102.07±7.83
449.24±94.61
63.80±5.02
43.56±1.42
28.55±1.02
… all in the correct order for 1/f noise, with one exception – the 449 year peak, which I suspect is underestimated in magnitude due to trying to estimate a 449 year cycle in just 311 years of data, which can be seen from the huge uncertainty in the cycle length.
Spence_UK says:
July 31, 2013 at 10:44 am
… all in the correct order for 1/f noise, with one exception – the 449 year peak,
From Lomb’s paper: “The analysis was repeated with the sunspot numbers modified following the scheme proposed by Svalgaard [5]. Results similar to those with the unmodified data are obtained though, as expected, with changes to the longer term periods. The longer term periods equivalent to f01 to f05 in table 1 become, 99.79, 67.32, 54.19, 170.49 and 44.31 years. The long trend period f02 from table 1 is now gone [that was the 449 year peak], but the period around 100 years remains with the modulation by this period obvious in a visual examination of a plot of the modified sunspot number data. Most interestingly, all five of these longer-term periods in the modified sunspot data are subharmonics of the main 11-year periodicity. “
Bart says:
July 31, 2013 at 9:58 am
Pitiful.
Here is a modern approach to fitting the solar cycles http://www.ann-geophys.net/26/231/2008/angeo-26-231-2008.pdf assuming non-linear dynamics. You may study their Figure 4.
Yall are missing the wood for the trees .What we are dealing with is a multivariate systen of quasi cyclic processes of different frequencies in which resonances fade in and out with time.The cyclists are making somewhat the same mistake as the modellers in trying to be more precise than is
possible with our current databases and knowledge of the mechanisms involved.Nature is more fuzzy than the usual mathematics allows. It is possible to make predictions by standing back and looking at patterns which can be projected forward for limited periods To see a perfectly usable forecast for the coming cooling see http://climatesense-norpag.blogspot.
Exactly Dr. Norman Page.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2013 at 10:28 am
Looks like Vuk is playing the +/-3,4,6 game and that he has discovered global warming.
But have you looked at change over points? They are the same as for the sunspot N/S hemisphere asymmetry (3rd graph down)
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/Ap-LT.htm
You believe in 105 year cycle, don’t you?
It is in the Ap – GT too correlation too, only that you didn’t know of it before.
Well now you know!
🙂
vukcevic says:
July 31, 2013 at 11:03 am
Well now you know!
“It is not what you know that gets you in trouble, it is what you know that ain’t”
They will learn the hard way, but I predict they will never own up to being wrong.
They lack in showing an understanding of the climate.
The models will never work, they can’t account for feedbacks and how those feedbacks can lead to thresholds, they(the models) do not have the correct beginning state of the climate, they do not have complete data or comprehensive ennough data to make any kind of a reliable climate forecast.
The co2 /warmer temp. projections these models keep putting forth are utter nonsense.
This decade ends all of this once and for all
Leif will never admit to being wrong he had made up his mind that only solar irradiance can change the climate and only .1c ,and that is where it starts and ends.
Everything else is all in our imaginations and worse yet he has NO alternative explanations.
Nothing like like a closed mind.
Leif, that’s quite consistent with 1/f noise – that the peaks near to or longer than the time series are very difficult to estimate, so small changes to the input result in big changes to the output, but the values shorter than the time series which can be reliably estimated give consistent ordering as would be expected from 1/f noise.
The relationship between the subharmonics and the 11 year cycle are interesting, but if they were a direct result of the 11 year cycle, why would you expect the lowest frequency to have the highest magnitude? This is expected from 1/f noise, but would be odd as a subharmonic from a known cycle.
Salvatore Del Prete says:
July 31, 2013 at 11:11 am
Nothing like a closed mind.
Perhaps preferable to one that is so open that the brain has fallen out…
Spence_UK says:
July 31, 2013 at 11:12 am
The relationship between the subharmonics and the 11 year cycle are interesting, but if they were a direct result of the 11 year cycle, why would you expect the lowest frequency to have the highest magnitude? This is expected from 1/f noise, but would be odd as a subharmonic from a known cycle.
I’m not sure what it means, for now it is just a curious item.
I must say I am pleased we have people like Leif ,Willis, and the AGW crowd in general who keep insisting they are correct. When the time comes (very soon) they fall.
Once this solar weak maximum ends things start to happen.
I can’t wait because I think I am correct , and past history lends much support ,something they don’t address and ignore because it does not fit with their present mode of thinking.
If by chance I am wrong I will unlike them admit it.
The link to enlightenment in my earlier post should be
http://climatesense-norpag.blogspot.com
Leif, why don’t you post a graph showing us sunspots versus temperature changes since 1600-present? Then explain why the correlation between the two does not exist.
Exactly my argument Dr. Page.
Leif will say no,no,no it can’t be it is not true it is all in our imaginations.
@Dale Rainwater Norman Page
agreed that experimental data is the best to use for forecasting, all these other things are just that: cycle mania….
This investigation of mine might interest you,
1 I took a random sample of weather stations that had daily data
2 I made sure the sample was globally representative (most data sets aren’t)
a) balanced by latitude (longitude does not matter)
b) balanced 70/30 in or at sea/ inland
c) all continents included (unfortunately I could not get reliable daily data going back 38 years from Antarctica,
so there always is this question mark about that, knowing that you never can get a “perfect” sample)
d) I made a special provision for months with missing data (not to put in a long term average, as usual in stats)
e) I did not look only at means (average daily temp.) like all other data sets, but also at maxima and minima…
3) I determined at all stations the average change in temp. per annum from the average temperature recorded,over the period indicated.
4) the end results on the bottom of the first table (on maximum temperatures),
clearly showed a drop in the speed of warming that started around 38 years ago, and continued to drop every
other period I looked//…
look at the bottom of the first table for the 4 relevant results
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2013/02/21/henrys-pool-tables-on-global-warmingcooling/
5) I did a linear fit, on those 4 results for the drop in the speed of global maximum temps,
ended up with y=0.0018x -0.0314, with r2=0.96
At that stage I was sure to know that there was a realtionship!
I was at least 95% sure (max) temperatures were falling
6) On same maxima data, a polynomial fit, of 2nd order, i.e. parabolic, gave me
y= -0.000049×2 + 0.004267x – 0.056745
r2=0.995
That is very high, showing a natural relationship, like the traject of somebody throwing a ball…
7) projection on the above parabolic fit backward, (10 years?) showed a curve:
8) ergo: the final curve must be a sine wave fit, with another curve happening, somewhere on the bottom…
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2012/10/02/best-sine-wave-fit-for-the-drop-in-global-maximum-temperatures/
If that fit is correct, max. global cooling speed will be reached around 2016, (+ 2-3 years error),
and global warming will not start again until 2038.
It seems to me your timing is a bit out?
Salvatore Del Prete says:
July 31, 2013 at 11:18 am
I must say I am pleased we have people like Leif ,Willis, and the AGW crowd in general who keep insisting they are correct. When the time comes (very soon) they fall.
Once this solar weak maximum ends things start to happen.
Why don’t you ask Anthony to do a guest post here for all to see and we can hash it out with you?