Cycles Without The Mania

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Are there cycles in the sun and its associated electromagnetic phenomena? Assuredly. What are the lengths of the cycles? Well, there’s the question. In the process of writing my recent post about cyclomania, I came across a very interesting paper entitled Correlation Between the Sunspot Number, the Total Solar Irradiance, and the Terrestrial Insolation by Hempelmann and Weber, hereinafter H&W2011. It struck me as a reasonable look at cycles without the mania, so I thought I’d discuss it here.

The authors have used Fourier analysis to determine the cycle lengths of several related datasets. The datasets used were the sunspot count, the total solar irradiance (TSI), the Kiel neutron count (cosmic rays), the Geomagnetic aa index, and the Mauna Loa insolation. One of their interesting results is the relationship between the sunspot number, and the total solar irradiation (TSI). I always thought that the TSI rose and fell with the number of sunspots, but as usual, nature is not that simple. Here is their Figure 1:

acrim tsi vs sunspot number

They speculate that at small sunspot numbers, the TSI increases. However, when the number of sunspots gets very large, the size of the black spots on the surface of the sun rises faster than the radiance, so the net radiance drops. Always more to learn … I’ve replicated their results, and determined that the curve they show is quite close to the Gaussian average of the data.

Next, they give the Fourier spectra for a variety of datasets. I find that for many purposes, there is a better alternative than Fourier analysis for understanding the makeup of a complex waveform or a time-series of natural observations. Let me explain the advantages of an alternative to the Fourier Transform, which is called the Periodicity Transform, developed by Sethares and Staley.

I realized in the writing of this post that in climate science we have a very common example of a periodicity transform (PT). This is the analysis of temperature data to give us the “climatology”, which is the monthly average temperature curve. What we are doing is projecting a long string of monthly data onto a periodic space, which repeats with a cycle length of 12. Then we take the average of each of those twelve columns of monthly data, and that’s the annual cycle. That’s a periodicity analysis, with a cycle length of 12.

By extension, we can do the same thing for a cycle length of 13 months, or 160 months. In each case, we will get the actual cycle in the data with that particular cycle length.

So given a dataset, we can look at cycles of any length in the data. The larger the swing of the cycle, of course, the more of the variation in the original data that particular cycle explains. For example, the 12-month cycle in a temperature time series explains most of the total variation in the temperature. The 13-month cycle, on the other hand, is basically nonexistent in a monthly temperature time-series.

The same is true about hourly data. We can use a periodicity transform (PT) to look at a 24-hour cycle. Here’s the 24-hour cycle for where I live:

santa rosa diurnal temperature

Figure 2. Average hourly temperatures, Santa Rosa, California. This is a periodicity transform of the original hourly time series, with a period of 24.

Now, we can do a “goodness-of-fit” analysis of any given cycle against the original observational time series. There are several ways to measure that. If we’re only interested in a relative index of the fit of cycles of various lengths, we can use the root-mean-square power in the signals. Another would be to calculate the R^2 of the cycle and the original signal. The choice is not critical, because we’re looking for the strongest signal regardless of how it’s measured. I use a “Power Index” which is the RMS power in the signal, divided by the square root of the length of the signal. In the original Sethares and Staley paper, this is called a “gamma correction”. It is a relative measurement, valid only to compare the cycles within a given dataset.

So … what are the advantages and disadvantages of periodicity analysis (Figure 2) over Fourier analysis? Advantages first, neither list is exhaustive …

Advantage: Improved resolution at all temporal scales. Fourier analysis only gives the cycle strength at specific intervals. And these intervals are different across the scale. For example, I have 3,174 months of sunspot data. A Fourier analysis of that data gives sine waves with periods of 9.1, 9.4, 9.8, 10.2, 10.6, 11.0, 11.5, and 12.0 years.

Periodicity analysis, on the other hand, has the same resolution at all time scales. For example, in Figure 2, the resolution is hourly. We can investigate a 25-hour cycle as easily and as accurately as the 24-hour cycle shown. (Of course, the 25-hour cycle is basically a straight line …)

Advantage: A more fine-grained dataset gives better resolution. The resolution of the Fourier Transform is a function of the length of the underlying dataset. The resolution of the PT, on the other hand, is given by the resolution of the data, not the length of the dataset.

Advantage: Shows actual cycle shapes, rather than sine waves. In Figure 2, you can see that the cycle with a periodicity of 24 is not a sine wave in any sense. Instead, it is a complex repeating waveform. And often, the shape of the wave-form resulting from the periodicity transform contains much valuable information. For example, in Figure 2, from 6AM until noon, we can see how the increasing solar radiation results in a surprisingly linear increase of temperature with time. Once that peaks, the temperature drops rapidly until 11 PM. Then the cooling slows, and continues (again surprisingly linearly) from 11PM until sunrise.

As another example, suppose that we have a triangle wave with a period of 19 and a sine wave with a period of 17. We add them together, and we get a complex wave form. Using Fourier analysis we can get the underlying sine waves making up the complex wave form … but Fourier won’t give us the triangle wave and the sine wave. Periodicity analysis does that, showing the actual shapes of the waves just as in Figure 2.

Advantage: Can sometimes find cycles Fourier can’t find. See the example here, and the discussion in Sethares and Staley.

Advantage: No “ringing” or aliasing from end effects. Fourier analysis suffers from the problem that the dataset is of finite length. This can cause “ringing” or aliasing when you go from the time domain to the frequency domain. Periodicity analysis doesn’t have these issues

Advantage: Relatively resistant to missing data. As the H&W2011 states, they’ve had to use a variant of the Fourier transform to analyze the data because of missing values. The PT doesn’t care about missing data, it just affects the error bars.

Advantage: Cycle strengths are actually measured. If the periodicity analysis say that there’s no strength in a certain cycle length, that’s not a theoretical statement. It’s a measurement of the strength of that actual cycle compared to the other cycles in the data.

Advantage: Computationally reasonably fast. The periodicity function I post below written in the computer language “R”, running  on my machine (MacBook Pro) does a full periodicity transform (all cycles up to 1/3 the dataset length) on a dataset of 70,000 data points in about forty seconds. Probably could be sped up, all suggestions accepted, my programming skills in R are … well, not impressive.

Disadvantage: Periodicity cycles are neither orthogonal nor unique. There’s only one big disadvantage, which applies to the decomposition of the signal into its cyclical components. With the Fourier Transform, the sine waves that it finds are independent of each other. When you decompose the original signal into sine waves, the order in which you remove them makes no difference. With the Periodicity Transform, on the other hand, the signals are not independent. A signal with a period of ten years, for example, will also appear at twenty and thirty years and so on. As a result, the order in which you decompose the signal becomes important. See Sethares and Staley for a full discussion of decomposition methods.

A full periodicity analysis looks at the strength of the signal at all possible frequencies up to the longest practical length, which for me is a third of the length of the dataset. That gives three full cycles for the longest period. However, I don’t trust the frequencies at the longest end of the scale as much as those at the shorter end. The margin of error in a periodicity analysis is less for the shorter cycles, because it is averaging over more cycles.

So to begin the discussion, let me look at the Fourier Transform and the Periodicity Transform of the SIDC sunspot data. In the H&W2011 paper they show the following figure for the Fourier results:

fourier analysis sunspot number

Figure 3. Fourier spectrum of SIDC daily sunspot numbers.

In this, we’re seeing the problem of the lack of resolution in the Fourier Transform. The dataset is 50 years in length. So the only frequencies used by the Fourier analysis are 50/2 years, 50/3 years, 50/4 years, and so on. This only gives values at cycle lengths of around 12.5, 10, and 8.3 years. As a result, it’s missing what’s actually happening. The Fourier analysis doesn’t catch the fine detail revealed by the Periodicity analysis.

Figure 4 shows the full periodicity transform of the monthly SIDC sunspot data, showing the power contained in each cycle length from 3 to 88 years (a third of the dataset length).

periodicity monthly sunspot 3 to 88

Figure 4. Periodicity transform of monthly SIDC sunspot numbers. The “Power Index” is the RMS power in the cycle divided by the square root of the cycle length. Vertical dotted lines show the eleven-year cycles, vertical solid lines show the ten-year cycles.

This graph is a typical periodicity transform of a dataset containing clear cycles. The length of the cycles is shown on the bottom axis, and the strength of the cycle is shown on the vertical axis.

Now as you might expect in a sunspot analysis, the strongest underlying signal is an eleven year cycle. The second strongest signal is ten years. As mentioned above, these same cycles reappear at 20 and 22 years, 30 and 33 years, and so on. However, it is clear that the main periodicity in the sunspot record is in the cluster of frequencies right around the 11 year mark. Figure 5 shows a closeup of the cycle lengths from nine to thirteen years.:

periodicity analysis monthly sunspot count

Figure 5. Closeup of Figure 4, showing the strength of the cycles with lengths from 9 years to 13 years.

Note that in place of the single peak at around 11 years shown in the Fourier analysis, the periodicity analysis shows three clear peaks at 10 years, 11 years, and 11 years 10 months. Also, you can see the huge advantage in accuracy of the periodicity analysis over the Fourier analysis. It samples the actual cycles at a resolution of one month.

Now, before anyone points out that 11 years 10 months is the orbital period of Jupiter, yes, it is. But then ten years, and eleven years, the other two peaks, are not the orbital period of anything I know of … so that may or may not be a coincidence. In any case, it doesn’t matter whether the 11 years 10 months is Jupiter or not, any more than it matters if 10 years is the orbital period of something else. Those are just the frequencies involved to the nearest month. We’ll see below why Jupiter may not be so important.

Next, we can take another look at the sunspot data, but this time using daily sunspot data. Here are the cycles from nine to thirteen years in that dataset.

periodicity analysis daily sunspot count

Figure 6. As in figure 5, except using daily data.

In this analysis, we see peaks at 10.1, 10.8, and 11.9 years. This analysis of daily data is much the same as the previous analysis of monthly data shown in Figure 5, albeit with greater resolution. So this should settle the size of the sunspot cycles and enshrine Jupiter in the pantheon, right?

Well … no. We’ve had the good news, here’s the bad news. The problem is that like all natural cycles, the strength of these cycles waxes and wanes over time. We can see this by looking at the periodicity transform of the first and second halves of the data individually. Figure 7 shows the periodicity analysis of the daily data seen in Figure 6, plus the identical analysis done on each half of the data individually:

periodicity analysis daily sunspot plus halves

Figure 7. The blue line shows the strengths of the cycles found using the entire sunspot dataset as shown in Figure 6. The other two lines are the cycles found by analyzing half of the dataset at a time.

As you can see, the strengths of the cycles of various lengths in each half of the dataset are quite dissimilar. The half-data cycles each show a single peak, not several. In one half of the data this is at 10.4 years, and in the other, 11.2 years. The same situation holds for the monthly sunspot half-datasets (not shown). The lengths of the strongest cycles in the two halves vary greatly.

Not only that, but in neither half is there any sign of the signal at 11 years 10 months, the purported signal of Jupiter.

As a result, all we can do is look at the cycles and marvel at the complexity of the sun. We can’t use the cycles of one half to predict the other half, it’s the eternal curse of those who wish to make cycle-based models of the future. Cycles appear and disappear, what seems to point to Jupiter changes and points to Saturn or to nothing at all … and meanwhile, if the fixed Fourier cycle lengths are say 8.0, 10.6, and 12.8 years or something like that, there would be little distinction between any of those situations.

However, I was unable to replicate all of their results regarding the total solar irradiance. I suspect that this is the result of the inherent inaccuracy of the Fourier method. The text of H&W2011 says:

4.1. The ACRIM TSI Time Series

Our analysis of the ACRIM TSI time series only yields the solar activity cycle (Schwabe cycle, Figure 6). The cycle length is 10.6 years. The cycle length of the corresponding time series of the sunspot number is also 10.6 years. The close agreement of both periods is obvious.

I suggest that the agreement at 10.6 years is an artifact of the limited resolution of the two Fourier analyses. The daily ACRIM dataset is a bit over 30 years, and the daily sunspot dataset that he used is 50 years of data. The Fourier frequencies for fifty years are 50/2=25, 50/3=16.7, 50/4=12.5, 50/5=10, and 50/6=8.3 year cycles. For a thirty-two year dataset, the frequencies are 32/2=16, 32/3=10.6, and 32/4=8 years. So finding a cycle of length around 10 in both datasets is not surprising.

In any case, I don’t find anything like the 10.6 year cycle they report. I find the following:

periodicity daily tsi 9 to 13

Figure 8. Periodicity analysis of the ACRIM composite daily total solar irradiance data.

Note how much less defined the TSI data is. This is a result of the large variation in TSI during the period of maximum solar activity. Figure 9 shows this variation in the underlying data for the TSI:

acrim composite daily TSI

Figure 9. ACRIM composite TSI data used in the analysis.

When the sun is at its calmest, there is little variation in the signal. This is shown in the dark blue areas in between the peaks. But when activity increases, the output begins to fluctuate wildly. This, plus the short length of the cycle, turns the signal into mush and results in the loss of everything but the underlying ~ 11 year cycle.

Finally, let’s look at the terrestrial temperature datasets to see if there is any trace of the sunspot cycle in the global temperature record. The longest general temperature dataset that we have is the BEST land temperature dataset. Here’s the BEST periodicity analysis:

periodicity analysis BEST temperature

Figure 10. Full-length periodicity analysis of the BEST land temperature data.

There is a suggestion of a cycle around 26 years, with an echo at 52 years … but nothing around 10-11 years, the solar cycle. Moving on, here’s the HadCRUT3 temperature data:

periodicity analysis HadCRUT3 temperature

Figure 11. Full-length periodicity analysis of the HadCRUT3 temperature record.

Curiously, the HadCRUT3 record doesn’t show the 26- and 52-year cycle shown by the BEST data, while it does show a number of variations not shown in the BEST data. My suspicion is that this is a result of the “scalpel” method used to assemble the BEST dataset, which cuts the records at discontinuities rather than trying to “adjust” them.

Of course, life wouldn’t be complete without the satellite records. Here are the periodicity analyses of the satellite records:

periodicity analysis RSS temperature

Figure 12. Periodicity analysis, RSS satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.

With only a bit more than thirty years of data, we can’t determine any cycles over about ten years. The RSS data server is down, so it’s not the most recent data.

periodicity analysis msu uah temperature

Figure 11. Periodicity analysis, UAH satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.

As one might hope, both satellite records are quite similar. Curiously, they both show a strong cycle with a period of 3 years 8 months (along with the expected echoes at twice and three times that length, about 7 years 4 months and 11 years respectively). I have no explanation for that cycle. It may represent some unremoved cyclicity in the satellite data.

SUMMARY:

To recap the bidding:

• I’ve used the Periodicity Transform to look at the sunspot record, both daily and monthly. In both cases we find the same cycles, at ~ 10 years, ~ 11 years, and ~ 11 years 10 months. Unfortunately when the data is split in half, those cycles disappear and other cycles appear in their stead. Nature wins again.

• I’ve looked at the TSI record, which contains only a single broad peak from about 10.75 to 11.75 years.

• The TSI has a non-linear relationship to the sunspots, increasing at small sunspot numbers and decreasing a high numbers. However, the total effect (averaged 24/7 over the globe) is on the order of a quarter of a watt per square metre …

• I’ve looked at the surface temperature records (BEST and HadCRUT3, which show no peaks at around 10-11 years, and thus contain no sign of Jovian (or jovial) influence. Nor do they show any sign of solar (sunspot or TSI) related influence, for that matter.

• The satellite temperatures tell the same story. Although the data is too short to be definitive, there appears to be no sign of any major peaks in the 10-11 year range.

Anyhow, that’s my look at cycles. Why isn’t this cyclomania? For several reasons:

First, because I’m not claiming that you can model the temperature by using the cycles. That way lies madness. If you don’t think so, calculate the cycles from the first half of your data, and see if you can predict the second half. Instead of attempting to predict the future, I’m looking at the cycles to try to understand the data.

Second, I’m not blindly ascribing the cycles to some labored astronomical relationship. Given the number of lunar and planetary celestial periods, synoptic periods, and the periods of precessions, nutations, perigees, and individual and combined tidal cycles, any length of cycle can be explained.

Third, I’m using the same analysis method to look at the  temperature data that I’m using on the solar phenomena (TSI, sunspots), and I’m not finding corresponding cycles. Sorry, but they are just not there. Here’s a final example. The most sensitive, responsive, and accurate global temperature observations we have are the satellite temperatures of the lower troposphere. We’ve had them for three full solar cycles at this point. So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures. Here’s that record:

scatterplot uah ltt vs sunspots

Figure 12. A graph showing the effect of the sunspots on the lower tropospheric temperatures. There is a slight decrease in lower tropospheric temperature with increasing sunspots, but it is far from statistically significance.

The vagaries of the sun, whatever else they might be doing, and whatever they might be related to, do not seem to affect the global surface temperature or the global lower atmospheric temperature in any meaningful way.

Anyhow, that’s my wander through the heavenly cycles, and their lack of effect on the terrestrial cycles. My compliments to Hempelmann and Weber, their descriptions and their datasets were enough to replicate almost all of their results.

w.

DATA:

SIDC Sunspot Data here

ACRIM TSI Data, overview here, data here

Kiel Neutron Count Monthly here, link in H&W document is broken

BEST data here

Sethares paper on periodicity analysis of music is here.

Finally, I was unable to reproduce the H&W2011 results regarding MLO transmissivity. They have access to a daily dataset which is not on the web. I used the monthly MLO dataset, available here, and had no joy finding their claimed relationship with sunspots. Too bad, it’s one of the more interesting parts of the H&W2011 paper.

CODE: here’s the R function that does the heavy lifting. It’s called “periodicity” and it can be called with just the name of the dataset that you want to analyze, e.g. “periodicity(mydata)”. It has an option to produce a graph of the results. Everything after a “#” in a line is a comment. If you are running MatLab (I’m not), Sethares has provided programs and examples here. Enjoy.

# The periodicity function returns the power index showing the relative strength

# of the cycles of various lengths. The input variables are:

#   tdata: the data to be analyzed

#   runstart, runend: the interval to be analyzed. By default from a cycle length of 2 to the dataset length / 3

#   doplot: a boolean to indicate whether a plot should be drawn.

#   gridlines: interval between vertical gridlines, plot only

#   timeint: intervals per year (e.g. monthly data = 12) for plot only

#   maintitle: title for the plat

periodicity=function(tdata,runstart=2,runend=NA,doplot=FALSE,

                  gridlines=10,timeint=12,

                  maintitle="Periodicity Analysis"){

  testdata=as.vector(tdata) # insure data is a vector

  datalen=length(testdata) # get data length

  if (is.na(runend)) { # if largest cycle is not specified

    maxdata=floor(datalen/3) # set it to the data length over three

  } else { # otherwise

    maxdata=runend # set it to user's value

  }

  answerline=matrix(NA,nrow=maxdata,ncol=1) # make empty matrix for answers

  for (i in runstart:maxdata) { # for each cycle

    newdata=c(testdata,rep(NA,(ceiling(length(testdata)/i)*i-length(testdata)))) # pad with NA's

    cyclemeans=colMeans(matrix(newdata,ncol=i,byrow=TRUE),na.rm=TRUE) # make matrix, take column means

    answerline[i]=sd(cyclemeans,na.rm=TRUE)/sqrt(length(cyclemeans)) # calculate and store power index

  }

  if (doplot){ # if a plot is called for

    par(mgp=c(2,1,0)) # set locations of labels

    timeline=c(1:(length(answerline))/timeint) #calculate times in years

    plot(answerline~timeline,type="o",cex=.5,xlim=c(0,maxdata/timeint),

         xlab="Cycle Length (years)",ylab="Power Index") # draw plot

    title(main=maintitle) # add title

    abline(v=seq(0,100,gridlines),col="gray") # add gridlines

  }

  answerline # return periodicity data

}
0 0 votes
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

434 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
July 31, 2013 4:59 am

I am stunned by the lack of civility exhibited on this thread. .
Can I remind everyone here that anyone who says” You are crazy” or “:idiot”(never mind liar) will be in danger of the fire of hell….” (Matt. 5: 22)
Whether you believe in hell or not the point, I think it just poor manners not to remain civil to each other,at all times, as if in a real life debate, with the person was standing right in front of you.The principle of WUWT (I hope) is that we (the bloggers) are all students and teachers to each other . We are in class here. You remain in control of yourself, at all times. Those asking the questions should remember they are the students (wanting to know) and those answering should remember that they are the teachers (giving advice). In this class, if a teacher or student goes name calling he loses all my respect…..

Spence_UK
July 31, 2013 5:05 am

@Bart, I have great respect for your understanding of signal processing, Fourier analysis which is clearly very good. I also cannot show you are wrong from the data that we draw our hypotheses from alone.
However, I would put forward a different explanation for the low frequency cycles. I’ve looked at geophysical data for a long time (not so much heliophysical). And what I’ve noticed is a thread running throughout climate time series: the presence of 1/f noise.
When you get a realisation of 1/f noise, it will always take broadly the same appearance; in the frequency domain, a series of peaks starting at a frequency near to the length of the data set, with the first (lowest freq) peak being the largest, the second peak being second amplitude, the third peak having the third greatest amplitude, and so on (more or less). What I notice is that human observers very naturally try to explain these, picking on the highest, lowest frequency peak first (because this is the easiest phenomena to fit). Note 1/f noise series also often have trends which are handled in a similar way. And I note that this behaviour is also visible in the SSN data.
So when I see people grasp at trends (such as the “CO2” caused trends in the global temperature), or low frequency cycles (such as the 60 year cycle in global temperature – note very close to the length of the series) I am immediately sceptical and want to see if the data show 1/f fluctuations.
Note that the presence of 1/f noise does not preclude other cycles which rise above the 1/f floor. For example, the annual cycle in global temperatures and 11 year cycle in SSN. But in each of these cases, the 1/f floor can be clearly seen, and the cycles are clearly above that floor, so it is reasonable to assume these are likely to have some physical deterministic basis.
As I note – the data that we used to create these hypotheses cannot distinguish between your explanation of cyclical behaviour, and my explanation of 1/f noise, just as the data alone cannot distinguish between CO2 explanation of temperature trends and my explanation of 1/f noise. Additional data would be needed to resolve the difference. Additional data in the future would be best – but would take centuries to gather. Additional data in the past may be the best route, and Leif suggests this is already possible.
But I see no harm in competing hypotheses, especially those which are testable.
I have tried to explain 1/f noise to Leif on several occasions, but he doesn’t really seem to understand it; he still talks about short memories, which is wrongheaded for a system like this. Although I applaud the statement that the sun does not remember where it was – that statement is very appropriate for a system of 1/f noise (which is more a system of amnesia than of memory)

July 31, 2013 5:11 am

Solar activity keeps plodding on, sunspot number for July is around 60
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/SSN.htm
not much different from the June’s SSN.
Dr. S expects number of SSN peaks, as in the SC14 (100 years ago) it looks as he may be wrong, but the time will tell.

July 31, 2013 5:19 am

We know that the moon exerts an influence on the earth, ie. the tides, and it is also claimed that the moon may have an influence on Earth’s iron core, hence more earth quakes when the moon is nearest.
Similarly, I imagine that the sun’s iron core, which is spinning like a dynamo, on its own, may be influenced by the planets gravitational pulls, as they encircle the sun, which then affects the output of the dynamo, and subsequently, also TSI. To me, that is simple Newtonian thinking.
William Arnold had this figured out a long time ago and he put some dials together.
http://www.cyclesresearchinstitute.org/cycles-astronomy/arnold_theory_order.pdf
I just don’t understand what these dials mean. Can anyone here help with that?
My problem is that I want to forecast exactly when we will reach the maximum speed of cooling.
http://blogs.24.com/henryp/2012/10/02/best-sine-wave-fit-for-the-drop-in-global-maximum-temperatures/
Under normal circumstances I expect again a period of 23 years, as was the previous period (from 1972 to 1995), calculated from the point where we changed in sign from warming to cooling.
That would be 1995 + 23 = 2018.

tallbloke
July 31, 2013 5:37 am

LdB says:
July 31, 2013 at 4:31 am
If you are so sure why don’t you do the normal thing and contact the author … it’s not hard generally the email is on the paper.

The Author made it clear my interpretation of the paper is correct with her present tense laden statement:
“This star is not acting its age, and having a big planet as a companion may be the explanation,” said Poppenhaeger. “It’s possible this hot Jupiter *is keeping* the star’s rotation and magnetic activity high because of tidal forces, making it behave in some ways like a much younger star.”
Leif Svalgaard is the person who needs to contact her because he’s the one accusing me of making the “[alleged statement]” up.

lgl
July 31, 2013 7:09 am

Bart
Well, to me 131 is more like ~130, definitely not the same as Leifs ~100 yrs.
And I don’t understand why it’s any more real than the 10.8 yr beat cycle. Aren’t they both a result of rectifying the Hale cycle?
Leif
Someone finds a 22-yr variation but you don’t, therefore it doesn’t exits. Right, arrogant as ever. It’s probably the same in your home. You search for something but can’t find it and conclude the thing does not exist. Then your wife finds it but you keep denying its existence, right?

July 31, 2013 7:24 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2013 at 1:31 am
Here is Ap back to 1840s: http://www.leif.org/research/Ap-1844-now.png there is no trend and no resemblance to the variation of GT.
==============
GT should vary as the integral of solar effects, rather than directly vary, due to thermal inertial. High energy from the sun would not effect GT unless it is applied over time. Similarly, low energy from the sun would not affect GT unless it is applied over time. Alternative, one could compare solar effects to the rate of change in GT (first derivative)..
A simple way to visualize this is a pot of water on the stove. You turn on the stove, the temperature of the water starts increasing and continues increasing, without any change in the stove. You then turn off the stove and the temperature of the water starts decreasing and continues decreasing long after the stove is turned off, again without any change in the stove.
Further complicating all this is the overturn rate of the oceans. How quickly the upwelling cold water from the deep oceans towards the equator is replacing the descending warm water from the surface towards the poles, and the effect this has on GT.
The typical analysis of GT assumes a constant overturn rate, but this is contradicted by the observed warm and cold cycles of the ocean basins.
Further complicating this is the cycle length of the deep ocean conveyor, estimated to be on the order of magnitude of 1000 years. The first computer memories were delay lines, similar in effect to the deep ocean conveyor. The deep ocean conveyor “remembers” what the climate was like hundreds of year ago, and returns this to the surface depending on the cycle length of the conveyor.
Thus, a warm pulse in the climate 1000 years ago or so should show up as a warm pulse in current temperatures, regardless of current solar activity. However, it is possible that the deep ocean conveyor acts something like a river or fire hose under pressure. It meanders and whips around in an unpredictable fashion, leading to all sorts of short term oscillations in GT.
So while GT should correlate with the integral of solar activity, there are plenty of compounding factors that must be considered.

July 31, 2013 7:41 am

vukcevic says:
July 31, 2013 at 2:07 am
read of Ap index value for the date, and then you will have the data and ability to judge the Ap-Gt correlation.
It would seem that the one making such a claim should do the work. Now, Ap was designed to capture the strength of the interaction between the Sun and the geomagnetic field and is a very good measure of the intensity of aurorae. http://www.leif.org/research/POES%20Power%20and%20IHV.pdf
vukcevic says:
July 31, 2013 at 5:11 am
Dr. S expects number of SSN peaks, as in the SC14 (100 years ago) it looks as he may be wrong, but the time will tell.
We have already had two of those peaks: http://www.leif.org/research/http://www.leif.org/research/Active%20Region%20Count.png . Watch out for the next one, and the next, and ….
lgl says:
July 31, 2013 at 7:09 am
Someone finds a 22-yr variation but you don’t, therefore it doesn’t exits.
Here is a table of peaks in the sunspot record: http://www.leif.org/EOS/Lomb-Sunspot-Cycle-Revisited.pdf
Table 1. Periodicities in the yearly mean sunspot numbers, 1700–2011.
11.00±0.06 10.03±0.05 10.61±0.08 102.07±7.83 11.86±0.14 449.24±94.61 8.46±0.05 13.08±0.17 8.12±0.08 63.80±5.02 9.40±0.09 43.56±1.42
10.34±0.11 28.55±1.02 in decreasing order of size.
No 22-year cycle.
ferd berple says:
July 31, 2013 at 7:24 am
So while GT should correlate with the integral of solar activity, there are plenty of compounding factors that must be considered.
Tell that to Vuk.

July 31, 2013 7:42 am

We have already had two of those peaks: http://www.leif.org/research/Active%20Region%20Count.png

July 31, 2013 7:53 am

Global temperature – Ap Index Correlation ?
Dr. Svalgaard :
Here is Ap back to 1840s: http://www.leif.org/research/Ap-1844-now.png there is no trend and no resemblance to the variation of GT.
Vukcevic: Wait a minute, not so fast
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/Ap-LT.htm
Man of settled science creed:
It is irrelevant !
Man of true science:
I want to know what is going on here.

July 31, 2013 7:57 am

vukcevic says:
July 31, 2013 at 7:53 am
Man of true science: I want to know what is going on here.
Tell me when you have figured it out.

July 31, 2013 8:19 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2013 at 7:57 am
Tell me when you have figured it out.
Don’t bother waiting, you think know it all already.
If you take another good look with mind of an inquisitive scientist rather than inquisition enforcer
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/Ap-LT.htm
you will realise there is a limit to anyone’s knowledge.
p.s. discontinuity at same time and duration can be observed between the AMO and the Arctic atmospheric pressure.

July 31, 2013 8:23 am

vukcevic says:
July 31, 2013 at 8:19 am
you will realise there is a limit to anyone’s knowledge.
Not to the many Mr-Know-It-Alls posting on WUWT. But show the whole series, don’t cut off the beginning and the end.

Matthew R Marler
July 31, 2013 8:40 am

Leif Svalgaard: I have collected the comments from tallbloke and myself into a narrative and posted that as a comment on his blog [he had already posted some of mine].
It would probably be of interest to many of us if you put it up somewhere and gave us a link. As long as it has everything without post-hoc editing.
I admire your stamina and detailed responses.

Pamela Gray
July 31, 2013 8:41 am

I think it is reasonable to say that Jupiter, in its current state, may not be capable of solar interaction of the kind researchers speculate were active when it was new and hot. It makes perfect sense that early conditions in newly forming galaxies and solar systems help form unique characteristics we see later on but that are no longer acting in the present. Nature demonstrates this all over the place.
Those (including me) who consider themselves to be armchair climate thought-experiment investigators should be careful not to read into peer-reviewed published research conclusions that were actually not there to begin with. In addition, we should be doubly careful regarding media reports of research. Even when done by the authors themselves.

herkimer
July 31, 2013 8:49 am

Here is what I understand
we have had a group of small solar cycles every ~100 years. Since 1798
cycles were small like SC 5,6 and 7 and again SC 12,13 and 14 and possibly [ 24 ,25 & 26 in the future],
when solar flux is below 100 ( range 70-100) or sunspot # below approx 40 , global cooling seems to set in
cooling seems present during last three major solar minimums . 1645-1715, 1790-1820, 1880-1910
cooling seems to set in at the end of long solar cycles [ 7 + years after last solar maximum year] like SC 9,13,14 and 20
cooling seems extra strong during zero sunspot years like 1645-1715 and around 1810[ but especially the decades 1670-1700]
these seenms to be a 110+ year long climate cycle with cooling starting 1670, 1780, 1890 and now 2000
60 year ocean SST cycle [ Pacific and Atlantic] see Bob Tisdale graphs
Ocean cycles and solar cycles not always in sync [ see 1940’s and 1950’s]
In my opinion there is a definite solar connection here and it may take quantum science in our future and not the current classical physics to solve it. My bet is that as the current solar cycle winds down to its minimum watch the global temperatures drop for the next 20-30 years especially the winter temperatures and including this winter . UK may have another near 2010 winter experience and more such winters to come .

Pamela Gray
July 31, 2013 8:54 am

Herkimer, that is the worst comment posted yet. Reminds of the days when female hippies called their menstrual cycles “lunar”. Correlation alone is the lowest form of research understanding I have encountered and should be challenged whenever it crops up.

Matthew R Marler
July 31, 2013 9:10 am

Leif Svalgaard: I see a blatant lie as the word ‘keeping’ does not appear in her paper at all….
Nor ‘it’s possible’. The quote is a fabrication. This exposes you as dishonest. And utterly destroys your credibility [if any].

I think that you went overboard there. tallbloke directed you to read the paper. The quote was not in the paper, which you pointed out. The quote was in a press release quoting the author,, which tallbloke pointed out. Thus it was not a “fabrication”, merely an apparently accurate quote by the author of the paper, but not in the paper. The interchange between you and tallbloke was pretty informative up to that point. Since the quote was not a “fabrication”, it did not “expose [tallbrook] as dishonest” or “utterly destroy [tallbrook’s] credibility.”

Jim Arndt
July 31, 2013 9:21 am

tallbloke says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:35 am
Scafetta’s new paper lists observations which show the Sun burns slightly brighter on the hemisphere facing the centre of mass of the system, which almost always where Jupiter is.

Has this been confirmed by SOURCE, the TIM unit should show that variation in the TSI reading. I have not seen that show up in the data. As for tidal effects I don’t see how you can compare other planets to Jupiter when it appears that Jupiter’s orbit is unusual for planets that size. But you are still trying to compare Jupiter’s millimeter tidal effects to those planets kilometer tidal effects. Not to mention that many of these planets orbit at extremely fast rates (days not hundreds of years).

ralfellis
July 31, 2013 9:23 am

(Sorry Leif, I think you missed my comment)
.
.
ralfellis says:
July 31, 2013 at 3:59 am
ralfellis says: July 30, 2013 at 12:33 pm
Tallbloke posted a graph of his ‘planetary index’ closely following the SSN for 150 years, but you have not explained why you disagree with this graph.
Leif Svalgaard says: July 30, 2013 at 12:47 pm
I pointed out that the ‘close’ match [which is not that close to begin with, IMHO] has broken down for the last cycle. This often happens for spurious correlations.
_________________________________
Dear Leif,
So you are not disputing Tallbloke’s data or methodology, just whether his results have any meaning or not. Presumably you think this is conformity is coincidence rather than causal – but why?
I would have thought that a phenomina that tracks the SSN for 15 or so cycles must have some merit. The Warmist Bedwetters are claiming a link between CO2 and climate based upon just half a cycle, and yet you think there is no merit in something that mimicks and follows fifteen full cycles?
Your main problem appears to be recent discontinuity in the data. However, while I am not a scientist, I do have a gyroscope that will go through many precessionary cycles, and then have a fit and do something else, and then settle back into its original cycles. I am sure you must be familliar with many systems that break their cycle for a while.
.

July 31, 2013 9:27 am

Matthew R Marler says:
July 31, 2013 at 9:10 am
I think that you went overboard there. tallbloke directed you to read the paper. The quote was not in the paper, which you pointed out. The quote was in a press release quoting the author,, which tallbloke pointed out.
Possibly, however Tallbloke presented the quote as if it was from the paper [in the same paragraph that pointed to the paper]. The press release is at variance with the paper [press releases often are]. That was glossed over and Tallbloke tried to pass the press release as the real thing, while the paper says otherwise; that is the problem. In the link to NASA on his blog the quote did not appear. Only after my prodding did the email from NASA appear.
I know Katja and her papers [have linked to them in presentations I have given]. I have emailed her today to get her take on this. We shall see.

July 31, 2013 9:32 am

ralfellis says:
July 31, 2013 at 9:23 am
I am sure you must be familliar with many systems that break their cycle for a while.
A sure sign of a spurious correlation is that it holds for a while, but then falters when new data is added. This is the case here. The correlation in question also fails going back in time, but that Tallbloke ‘is too busy to bullied into showing’.

Bart
July 31, 2013 9:49 am

Spence_UK says:
July 31, 2013 at 5:05 am
There very likely is some shade of red noise in the data, though our resolution is necessarily so low in that regime that it is difficult to identify. However, the 131 year cycle is A) apparent in the raw data B) a natural outcome of the rectification of 20 and 23.6 year energy concentrations.The three peaks in the PSD at 10, 10.8, and 11.8 are consistent with this interpretation. I will grant you the 131 year one is hard to see in the particular linked PSD plot, but that is only because I traded off resolution at the low end with smoothness at the high end.
lgl says:
July 31, 2013 at 7:09 am
“Well, to me 131 is more like ~130, definitely not the same as Leifs ~100 yrs.”
Because it is the result of a difference of similarly sized terms, the error bars are expansive. I don’t quibble with what may well reasonably be +/- 30%.
“And I don’t understand why it’s any more real than the 10.8 yr beat cycle.”
The 10.8 year looks real to me. Maybe I’m just not sure what you mean when you say these are not “real”.
To All:
What Leif does not get is the following. Let’s suppose I have a system of the form
d^2/dt^2(x) + w^2 * x = 0
and another of the form
d^2/dt^2(y) + 2*w^2 * y – (dy/dt)^2/(2*y) = 0
where d^2/dt^2(x) is the second derivative of x and so forth.
The solution of the first equation is harmonic with radial frequency w. The second one has a solution of a constant plus a harmonic at 2w. Yet, these equations describe the same system and, in fact, y = 0.5 * x^2. If they are given consistent initial conditions, they will evolve consistently with one another. But, the solution to the first is simpler, and more fundamental, as it includes the polarity information.
Leif has an unfortunate hidebound tendency to treat with contempt anything with which he is not familiar. It’s too bad, because it is holding him back. He has nobody to blame but himself.

Bart
July 31, 2013 9:50 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
July 31, 2013 at 9:17 am
Were you not looking for correlation between Sunspots and temperature anomaly?

1 10 11 12 13 14 18