Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Are there cycles in the sun and its associated electromagnetic phenomena? Assuredly. What are the lengths of the cycles? Well, there’s the question. In the process of writing my recent post about cyclomania, I came across a very interesting paper entitled “Correlation Between the Sunspot Number, the Total Solar Irradiance, and the Terrestrial Insolation“ by Hempelmann and Weber, hereinafter H&W2011. It struck me as a reasonable look at cycles without the mania, so I thought I’d discuss it here.
The authors have used Fourier analysis to determine the cycle lengths of several related datasets. The datasets used were the sunspot count, the total solar irradiance (TSI), the Kiel neutron count (cosmic rays), the Geomagnetic aa index, and the Mauna Loa insolation. One of their interesting results is the relationship between the sunspot number, and the total solar irradiation (TSI). I always thought that the TSI rose and fell with the number of sunspots, but as usual, nature is not that simple. Here is their Figure 1:
They speculate that at small sunspot numbers, the TSI increases. However, when the number of sunspots gets very large, the size of the black spots on the surface of the sun rises faster than the radiance, so the net radiance drops. Always more to learn … I’ve replicated their results, and determined that the curve they show is quite close to the Gaussian average of the data.
Next, they give the Fourier spectra for a variety of datasets. I find that for many purposes, there is a better alternative than Fourier analysis for understanding the makeup of a complex waveform or a time-series of natural observations. Let me explain the advantages of an alternative to the Fourier Transform, which is called the Periodicity Transform, developed by Sethares and Staley.
I realized in the writing of this post that in climate science we have a very common example of a periodicity transform (PT). This is the analysis of temperature data to give us the “climatology”, which is the monthly average temperature curve. What we are doing is projecting a long string of monthly data onto a periodic space, which repeats with a cycle length of 12. Then we take the average of each of those twelve columns of monthly data, and that’s the annual cycle. That’s a periodicity analysis, with a cycle length of 12.
By extension, we can do the same thing for a cycle length of 13 months, or 160 months. In each case, we will get the actual cycle in the data with that particular cycle length.
So given a dataset, we can look at cycles of any length in the data. The larger the swing of the cycle, of course, the more of the variation in the original data that particular cycle explains. For example, the 12-month cycle in a temperature time series explains most of the total variation in the temperature. The 13-month cycle, on the other hand, is basically nonexistent in a monthly temperature time-series.
The same is true about hourly data. We can use a periodicity transform (PT) to look at a 24-hour cycle. Here’s the 24-hour cycle for where I live:

Figure 2. Average hourly temperatures, Santa Rosa, California. This is a periodicity transform of the original hourly time series, with a period of 24.
Now, we can do a “goodness-of-fit” analysis of any given cycle against the original observational time series. There are several ways to measure that. If we’re only interested in a relative index of the fit of cycles of various lengths, we can use the root-mean-square power in the signals. Another would be to calculate the R^2 of the cycle and the original signal. The choice is not critical, because we’re looking for the strongest signal regardless of how it’s measured. I use a “Power Index” which is the RMS power in the signal, divided by the square root of the length of the signal. In the original Sethares and Staley paper, this is called a “gamma correction”. It is a relative measurement, valid only to compare the cycles within a given dataset.
So … what are the advantages and disadvantages of periodicity analysis (Figure 2) over Fourier analysis? Advantages first, neither list is exhaustive …
Advantage: Improved resolution at all temporal scales. Fourier analysis only gives the cycle strength at specific intervals. And these intervals are different across the scale. For example, I have 3,174 months of sunspot data. A Fourier analysis of that data gives sine waves with periods of 9.1, 9.4, 9.8, 10.2, 10.6, 11.0, 11.5, and 12.0 years.
Periodicity analysis, on the other hand, has the same resolution at all time scales. For example, in Figure 2, the resolution is hourly. We can investigate a 25-hour cycle as easily and as accurately as the 24-hour cycle shown. (Of course, the 25-hour cycle is basically a straight line …)
Advantage: A more fine-grained dataset gives better resolution. The resolution of the Fourier Transform is a function of the length of the underlying dataset. The resolution of the PT, on the other hand, is given by the resolution of the data, not the length of the dataset.
Advantage: Shows actual cycle shapes, rather than sine waves. In Figure 2, you can see that the cycle with a periodicity of 24 is not a sine wave in any sense. Instead, it is a complex repeating waveform. And often, the shape of the wave-form resulting from the periodicity transform contains much valuable information. For example, in Figure 2, from 6AM until noon, we can see how the increasing solar radiation results in a surprisingly linear increase of temperature with time. Once that peaks, the temperature drops rapidly until 11 PM. Then the cooling slows, and continues (again surprisingly linearly) from 11PM until sunrise.
As another example, suppose that we have a triangle wave with a period of 19 and a sine wave with a period of 17. We add them together, and we get a complex wave form. Using Fourier analysis we can get the underlying sine waves making up the complex wave form … but Fourier won’t give us the triangle wave and the sine wave. Periodicity analysis does that, showing the actual shapes of the waves just as in Figure 2.
Advantage: Can sometimes find cycles Fourier can’t find. See the example here, and the discussion in Sethares and Staley.
Advantage: No “ringing” or aliasing from end effects. Fourier analysis suffers from the problem that the dataset is of finite length. This can cause “ringing” or aliasing when you go from the time domain to the frequency domain. Periodicity analysis doesn’t have these issues
Advantage: Relatively resistant to missing data. As the H&W2011 states, they’ve had to use a variant of the Fourier transform to analyze the data because of missing values. The PT doesn’t care about missing data, it just affects the error bars.
Advantage: Cycle strengths are actually measured. If the periodicity analysis say that there’s no strength in a certain cycle length, that’s not a theoretical statement. It’s a measurement of the strength of that actual cycle compared to the other cycles in the data.
Advantage: Computationally reasonably fast. The periodicity function I post below written in the computer language “R”, running on my machine (MacBook Pro) does a full periodicity transform (all cycles up to 1/3 the dataset length) on a dataset of 70,000 data points in about forty seconds. Probably could be sped up, all suggestions accepted, my programming skills in R are … well, not impressive.
Disadvantage: Periodicity cycles are neither orthogonal nor unique. There’s only one big disadvantage, which applies to the decomposition of the signal into its cyclical components. With the Fourier Transform, the sine waves that it finds are independent of each other. When you decompose the original signal into sine waves, the order in which you remove them makes no difference. With the Periodicity Transform, on the other hand, the signals are not independent. A signal with a period of ten years, for example, will also appear at twenty and thirty years and so on. As a result, the order in which you decompose the signal becomes important. See Sethares and Staley for a full discussion of decomposition methods.
A full periodicity analysis looks at the strength of the signal at all possible frequencies up to the longest practical length, which for me is a third of the length of the dataset. That gives three full cycles for the longest period. However, I don’t trust the frequencies at the longest end of the scale as much as those at the shorter end. The margin of error in a periodicity analysis is less for the shorter cycles, because it is averaging over more cycles.
So to begin the discussion, let me look at the Fourier Transform and the Periodicity Transform of the SIDC sunspot data. In the H&W2011 paper they show the following figure for the Fourier results:
Figure 3. Fourier spectrum of SIDC daily sunspot numbers.
In this, we’re seeing the problem of the lack of resolution in the Fourier Transform. The dataset is 50 years in length. So the only frequencies used by the Fourier analysis are 50/2 years, 50/3 years, 50/4 years, and so on. This only gives values at cycle lengths of around 12.5, 10, and 8.3 years. As a result, it’s missing what’s actually happening. The Fourier analysis doesn’t catch the fine detail revealed by the Periodicity analysis.
Figure 4 shows the full periodicity transform of the monthly SIDC sunspot data, showing the power contained in each cycle length from 3 to 88 years (a third of the dataset length).
Figure 4. Periodicity transform of monthly SIDC sunspot numbers. The “Power Index” is the RMS power in the cycle divided by the square root of the cycle length. Vertical dotted lines show the eleven-year cycles, vertical solid lines show the ten-year cycles.
This graph is a typical periodicity transform of a dataset containing clear cycles. The length of the cycles is shown on the bottom axis, and the strength of the cycle is shown on the vertical axis.
Now as you might expect in a sunspot analysis, the strongest underlying signal is an eleven year cycle. The second strongest signal is ten years. As mentioned above, these same cycles reappear at 20 and 22 years, 30 and 33 years, and so on. However, it is clear that the main periodicity in the sunspot record is in the cluster of frequencies right around the 11 year mark. Figure 5 shows a closeup of the cycle lengths from nine to thirteen years.:
Figure 5. Closeup of Figure 4, showing the strength of the cycles with lengths from 9 years to 13 years.
Note that in place of the single peak at around 11 years shown in the Fourier analysis, the periodicity analysis shows three clear peaks at 10 years, 11 years, and 11 years 10 months. Also, you can see the huge advantage in accuracy of the periodicity analysis over the Fourier analysis. It samples the actual cycles at a resolution of one month.
Now, before anyone points out that 11 years 10 months is the orbital period of Jupiter, yes, it is. But then ten years, and eleven years, the other two peaks, are not the orbital period of anything I know of … so that may or may not be a coincidence. In any case, it doesn’t matter whether the 11 years 10 months is Jupiter or not, any more than it matters if 10 years is the orbital period of something else. Those are just the frequencies involved to the nearest month. We’ll see below why Jupiter may not be so important.
Next, we can take another look at the sunspot data, but this time using daily sunspot data. Here are the cycles from nine to thirteen years in that dataset.
Figure 6. As in figure 5, except using daily data.
In this analysis, we see peaks at 10.1, 10.8, and 11.9 years. This analysis of daily data is much the same as the previous analysis of monthly data shown in Figure 5, albeit with greater resolution. So this should settle the size of the sunspot cycles and enshrine Jupiter in the pantheon, right?
Well … no. We’ve had the good news, here’s the bad news. The problem is that like all natural cycles, the strength of these cycles waxes and wanes over time. We can see this by looking at the periodicity transform of the first and second halves of the data individually. Figure 7 shows the periodicity analysis of the daily data seen in Figure 6, plus the identical analysis done on each half of the data individually:
Figure 7. The blue line shows the strengths of the cycles found using the entire sunspot dataset as shown in Figure 6. The other two lines are the cycles found by analyzing half of the dataset at a time.
As you can see, the strengths of the cycles of various lengths in each half of the dataset are quite dissimilar. The half-data cycles each show a single peak, not several. In one half of the data this is at 10.4 years, and in the other, 11.2 years. The same situation holds for the monthly sunspot half-datasets (not shown). The lengths of the strongest cycles in the two halves vary greatly.
Not only that, but in neither half is there any sign of the signal at 11 years 10 months, the purported signal of Jupiter.
As a result, all we can do is look at the cycles and marvel at the complexity of the sun. We can’t use the cycles of one half to predict the other half, it’s the eternal curse of those who wish to make cycle-based models of the future. Cycles appear and disappear, what seems to point to Jupiter changes and points to Saturn or to nothing at all … and meanwhile, if the fixed Fourier cycle lengths are say 8.0, 10.6, and 12.8 years or something like that, there would be little distinction between any of those situations.
However, I was unable to replicate all of their results regarding the total solar irradiance. I suspect that this is the result of the inherent inaccuracy of the Fourier method. The text of H&W2011 says:
4.1. The ACRIM TSI Time Series
Our analysis of the ACRIM TSI time series only yields the solar activity cycle (Schwabe cycle, Figure 6). The cycle length is 10.6 years. The cycle length of the corresponding time series of the sunspot number is also 10.6 years. The close agreement of both periods is obvious.
I suggest that the agreement at 10.6 years is an artifact of the limited resolution of the two Fourier analyses. The daily ACRIM dataset is a bit over 30 years, and the daily sunspot dataset that he used is 50 years of data. The Fourier frequencies for fifty years are 50/2=25, 50/3=16.7, 50/4=12.5, 50/5=10, and 50/6=8.3 year cycles. For a thirty-two year dataset, the frequencies are 32/2=16, 32/3=10.6, and 32/4=8 years. So finding a cycle of length around 10 in both datasets is not surprising.
In any case, I don’t find anything like the 10.6 year cycle they report. I find the following:
Figure 8. Periodicity analysis of the ACRIM composite daily total solar irradiance data.
Note how much less defined the TSI data is. This is a result of the large variation in TSI during the period of maximum solar activity. Figure 9 shows this variation in the underlying data for the TSI:
Figure 9. ACRIM composite TSI data used in the analysis.
When the sun is at its calmest, there is little variation in the signal. This is shown in the dark blue areas in between the peaks. But when activity increases, the output begins to fluctuate wildly. This, plus the short length of the cycle, turns the signal into mush and results in the loss of everything but the underlying ~ 11 year cycle.
Finally, let’s look at the terrestrial temperature datasets to see if there is any trace of the sunspot cycle in the global temperature record. The longest general temperature dataset that we have is the BEST land temperature dataset. Here’s the BEST periodicity analysis:
Figure 10. Full-length periodicity analysis of the BEST land temperature data.
There is a suggestion of a cycle around 26 years, with an echo at 52 years … but nothing around 10-11 years, the solar cycle. Moving on, here’s the HadCRUT3 temperature data:
Figure 11. Full-length periodicity analysis of the HadCRUT3 temperature record.
Curiously, the HadCRUT3 record doesn’t show the 26- and 52-year cycle shown by the BEST data, while it does show a number of variations not shown in the BEST data. My suspicion is that this is a result of the “scalpel” method used to assemble the BEST dataset, which cuts the records at discontinuities rather than trying to “adjust” them.
Of course, life wouldn’t be complete without the satellite records. Here are the periodicity analyses of the satellite records:
Figure 12. Periodicity analysis, RSS satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.
With only a bit more than thirty years of data, we can’t determine any cycles over about ten years. The RSS data server is down, so it’s not the most recent data.
Figure 11. Periodicity analysis, UAH satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.
As one might hope, both satellite records are quite similar. Curiously, they both show a strong cycle with a period of 3 years 8 months (along with the expected echoes at twice and three times that length, about 7 years 4 months and 11 years respectively). I have no explanation for that cycle. It may represent some unremoved cyclicity in the satellite data.
SUMMARY:
To recap the bidding:
• I’ve used the Periodicity Transform to look at the sunspot record, both daily and monthly. In both cases we find the same cycles, at ~ 10 years, ~ 11 years, and ~ 11 years 10 months. Unfortunately when the data is split in half, those cycles disappear and other cycles appear in their stead. Nature wins again.
• I’ve looked at the TSI record, which contains only a single broad peak from about 10.75 to 11.75 years.
• The TSI has a non-linear relationship to the sunspots, increasing at small sunspot numbers and decreasing a high numbers. However, the total effect (averaged 24/7 over the globe) is on the order of a quarter of a watt per square metre …
• I’ve looked at the surface temperature records (BEST and HadCRUT3, which show no peaks at around 10-11 years, and thus contain no sign of Jovian (or jovial) influence. Nor do they show any sign of solar (sunspot or TSI) related influence, for that matter.
• The satellite temperatures tell the same story. Although the data is too short to be definitive, there appears to be no sign of any major peaks in the 10-11 year range.
Anyhow, that’s my look at cycles. Why isn’t this cyclomania? For several reasons:
First, because I’m not claiming that you can model the temperature by using the cycles. That way lies madness. If you don’t think so, calculate the cycles from the first half of your data, and see if you can predict the second half. Instead of attempting to predict the future, I’m looking at the cycles to try to understand the data.
Second, I’m not blindly ascribing the cycles to some labored astronomical relationship. Given the number of lunar and planetary celestial periods, synoptic periods, and the periods of precessions, nutations, perigees, and individual and combined tidal cycles, any length of cycle can be explained.
Third, I’m using the same analysis method to look at the temperature data that I’m using on the solar phenomena (TSI, sunspots), and I’m not finding corresponding cycles. Sorry, but they are just not there. Here’s a final example. The most sensitive, responsive, and accurate global temperature observations we have are the satellite temperatures of the lower troposphere. We’ve had them for three full solar cycles at this point. So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures. Here’s that record:
Figure 12. A graph showing the effect of the sunspots on the lower tropospheric temperatures. There is a slight decrease in lower tropospheric temperature with increasing sunspots, but it is far from statistically significance.
The vagaries of the sun, whatever else they might be doing, and whatever they might be related to, do not seem to affect the global surface temperature or the global lower atmospheric temperature in any meaningful way.
Anyhow, that’s my wander through the heavenly cycles, and their lack of effect on the terrestrial cycles. My compliments to Hempelmann and Weber, their descriptions and their datasets were enough to replicate almost all of their results.
w.
DATA:
SIDC Sunspot Data here
ACRIM TSI Data, overview here, data here
Kiel Neutron Count Monthly here, link in H&W document is broken
BEST data here
Sethares paper on periodicity analysis of music is here.
Finally, I was unable to reproduce the H&W2011 results regarding MLO transmissivity. They have access to a daily dataset which is not on the web. I used the monthly MLO dataset, available here, and had no joy finding their claimed relationship with sunspots. Too bad, it’s one of the more interesting parts of the H&W2011 paper.
CODE: here’s the R function that does the heavy lifting. It’s called “periodicity” and it can be called with just the name of the dataset that you want to analyze, e.g. “periodicity(mydata)”. It has an option to produce a graph of the results. Everything after a “#” in a line is a comment. If you are running MatLab (I’m not), Sethares has provided programs and examples here. Enjoy.
# The periodicity function returns the power index showing the relative strength
# of the cycles of various lengths. The input variables are:
# tdata: the data to be analyzed
# runstart, runend: the interval to be analyzed. By default from a cycle length of 2 to the dataset length / 3
# doplot: a boolean to indicate whether a plot should be drawn.
# gridlines: interval between vertical gridlines, plot only
# timeint: intervals per year (e.g. monthly data = 12) for plot only
# maintitle: title for the plat
periodicity=function(tdata,runstart=2,runend=NA,doplot=FALSE,
gridlines=10,timeint=12,
maintitle="Periodicity Analysis"){
testdata=as.vector(tdata) # insure data is a vector
datalen=length(testdata) # get data length
if (is.na(runend)) { # if largest cycle is not specified
maxdata=floor(datalen/3) # set it to the data length over three
} else { # otherwise
maxdata=runend # set it to user's value
}
answerline=matrix(NA,nrow=maxdata,ncol=1) # make empty matrix for answers
for (i in runstart:maxdata) { # for each cycle
newdata=c(testdata,rep(NA,(ceiling(length(testdata)/i)*i-length(testdata)))) # pad with NA's
cyclemeans=colMeans(matrix(newdata,ncol=i,byrow=TRUE),na.rm=TRUE) # make matrix, take column means
answerline[i]=sd(cyclemeans,na.rm=TRUE)/sqrt(length(cyclemeans)) # calculate and store power index
}
if (doplot){ # if a plot is called for
par(mgp=c(2,1,0)) # set locations of labels
timeline=c(1:(length(answerline))/timeint) #calculate times in years
plot(answerline~timeline,type="o",cex=.5,xlim=c(0,maxdata/timeint),
xlab="Cycle Length (years)",ylab="Power Index") # draw plot
title(main=maintitle) # add title
abline(v=seq(0,100,gridlines),col="gray") # add gridlines
}
answerline # return periodicity data
}
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Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 9:00 pm
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 3:20 pm
Where did I claim the quote came from the paper Leif?. It’s a Poppenhaeger quote from NASA’s news feed regarding the paper.
Your lie continues. The NASA feed http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/multimedia/exoplanet-hd-189733b.html#.UfiJTNIQYRi that you linked too also does not contain your ‘quote’. You simply made it up, and then tried to cover the lie by another lie. How low can you go? Or haven’t we seen the bottom yet? Despicable!
Leif, you are a disgrace to your profession and to this website..
Here’s the NASA newsfeed (not NASA’s webfeed) as emailed to me by NASA. I’ve bolded the final paragraph.
From: NASA News Releases
Date: Monday, 29 July 2013
Subject: [NASA HQ News] NASA’s Chandra Sees Eclipsing Planet in X-rays for First Time
To: hqnews@newsletters.nasa.gov
July 29, 2013
J.D. Harrington
Headquarters, Washington
202-358-5241
j.d.harrington@nasa.gov
Megan Watzke
Chandra X-ray Center, Cambridge, Mass.
617-496-7998
mwatzke@cfa.harvard.edu
RELEASE 13-237
NASA’s Chandra Sees Eclipsing Planet in X-rays for First Time
For the first time since exoplanets, or planets around stars other than the sun, were discovered almost 20 years ago, X-ray observations have detected an exoplanet passing in front of its parent star.
An advantageous alignment of a planet and its parent star in the system HD 189733, which is 63 light-years from Earth, enabled NASA’s Chandra X-ray Observatory and the European Space Agency’s XMM Newton Observatory to observe a dip in X-ray intensity as the planet transited the star.
“Thousands of planet candidates have been seen to transit in only optical light,” said Katja Poppenhaeger of Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics (CfA) in Cambridge, Mass., who led a new study to be published in the Aug. 10 edition of The Astrophysical Journal. “Finally being able to study one in X-rays is important because it reveals new information about the properties of an exoplanet.”
The team used Chandra to observe six transits and data from XMM Newton observations of one.
The planet, known as HD 189733b, is a hot Jupiter, meaning it is similar in size to Jupiter in our solar system but in very close orbit around its star. HD 189733b is more than 30 times closer to its star than Earth is to the sun. It orbits the star once every 2.2 days.
HD 189733b is the closest hot Jupiter to Earth, which makes it a prime target for astronomers who want to learn more about this type of exoplanet and the atmosphere around it. They have used NASA’s Kepler space telescope to study it at optical wavelengths, and NASA’s Hubble Space Telescope to confirm it is blue in color as a result of the preferential scattering of blue light by silicate particles in its atmosphere.
The study with Chandra and XMM Newton has revealed clues to the size of the planet’s atmosphere. The spacecraft saw light decreasing during the transits. The decrease in X-ray light was three times greater than the corresponding decrease in optical light.
“The X-ray data suggest there are extended layers of the planet’s atmosphere that are transparent to optical light but opaque to X-rays,” said co-author Jurgen Schmitt of Hamburger Sternwarte in Hamburg, Germany. “However, we need more data to confirm this idea.”
The researchers also are learning about how the planet and the star can affect one another.
Astronomers have known for about a decade ultraviolet and X-ray radiation from the main star in HD 189733 are evaporating the atmosphere of HD 189733b over time. The authors estimate it is losing 100 million to 600 million kilograms of mass per second. HD 189733b’s atmosphere appears to be thinning 25 percent to 65 percent faster than it would be if the planet’s atmosphere were smaller.
“The extended atmosphere of this planet makes it a bigger target for high-energy radiation from its star, so more evaporation occurs,” said co-author Scott Wolk, also of CfA.
The main star in HD 189733 also has a faint red companion, detected for the first time in X-rays with Chandra. The stars likely formed at the same time, but the main star appears to be 3 billion to 3 1/2 billion years younger than its companion star because it rotates faster, displays higher levels of magnetic activity and is about 30 times brighter in X-rays than its companion.
“This star is not acting its age, and having a big planet as a companion may be the explanation,” said Poppenhaeger. “It’s possible this hot Jupiter is keeping the star’s rotation and magnetic activity high because of tidal forces, making it behave in some ways like a much younger star.”
The paper is available online at:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1306.2311
For Chandra images, multimedia and related materials, visit:
http://www.nasa.gov/chandra
For an additional interactive image, podcast, and video on the finding, visit:
http://chandra.si.edu
-end-
Leif says:
Standard stellar theory provides for a spin-down in the first few million years of a stars life. For a star now billions of years old that is the distant past.
As you can see, and just like I told you, Poppenhaeger is talking about the star and the possible tidal influence on it from the Jupiter-like planet closely orbiting it in the present tense, i.e. the tidal influence is ongoing.
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:09 pm
As you can see, and just like I told you, Poppenhaeger is talking about the star and the possible tidal influence on it from the Jupiter-like planet closely orbiting it in the present tense, i.e. the tidal influence is ongoing.
Most of the Jupiter sized planets found orbit quite close to their parent stars and are millions of miles away while Jupiter is billions of miles away. Some of these planets orbit so close that they have their parent star taking material out of their atmosphere and they will eventually be absorb by the star. The tidal effect are vastly different from Jupiter (millimeters compared to kilometers)
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:09 pm
said Poppenhaeger. “It’s possible this hot Jupiter is keeping the star’s rotation and magnetic activity high because of tidal forces, making it behave in some ways like a much younger star.”
So, you came clean [provided you quoted the email correctly…]. On your blog you link to the webfeed.
As you can see, and just like I told you, Poppenhaeger is talking about the star and the possible tidal influence on it from the Jupiter-like planet closely orbiting it in the present tense, i.e. the tidal influence is ongoing.
But here you try to pull wool again. The spin-down she is talking about took place billions of years ago, read her paper:
“We can therefore exclude a stellar activity cycle to be the cause for the disagreement in activity levels. We consider it a more likely possibility that the stellar angular momentum of HD 189733A has been tidally influenced by the Hot Jupiter, which has inhibited the stellar spin-down enough to enable the star to maintain the relatively high magnetic activity we observe today”.
From http://arxiv.org/pdf/0810.1190v1.pdf : “Most solar-mass stars go through a phase on the C-sequence at ages less than 100 Myr, before they switch to the I-sequence, causing rapid spindown” so first ~10% of the star’s life is when the spin-down happens, thus billions of years ago.
Thanks Jim, I noted that in my write-up on my website. If you don’t mind, I’d first like to deal with the issue of Dr Svalgaard repeatedly calling me a liar, and accusing me of fabricating the quote.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:35 pm
[provided you quoted the email correctly…].
Ah, the innuendo continues.
I’ll deal with your misunderstandings of Stellar physics and the English language on my site, where smear and false accusation don’t get published by responsible editors.
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:45 pm
I’ll deal with your misunderstandings of Stellar physics and the English language on my site, where smear and false accusation don’t get published by responsible editors.
Then be sure to include:
The spin-down she is talking about took place billions of years ago, read her paper:
“We can therefore exclude a stellar activity cycle to be the cause for the disagreement in activity levels. We consider it a more likely possibility that the stellar angular momentum of HD 189733A has been tidally influenced by the Hot Jupiter, which has inhibited the stellar spin-down enough to enable the star to maintain the relatively high magnetic activity we observe today”.
From http://arxiv.org/pdf/0810.1190v1.pdf : “Most solar-mass stars go through a phase on the C-sequence at ages less than 100 Myr, before they switch to the I-sequence, causing rapid spindown” so first ~10% of the star’s life is when the spin-down happens, thus billions of years ago.
Willis Eschenbach says:
July 30, 2013 at 7:23 pm
Willis – of course you are not going to see a relationship in the way you are doing it. If you quickly turn the heat up and down under a pot of water, do you expect you would see a relationship between your instantaneous twisting of the knob and the temperature of the water? Of course not. The scatter plot would look like an amorphous cloud of dots, just like these.
You are dealing with a system with enormous thermal mass. I recommend, as a first cut, that you try filtering the sunspot data to lower and lower bandwidth, up to the limiting case of a pure integration. Then see if you don’t start to see a correlation at some point.
There are far more sophisticated techniques available, but, you might find something this way.
And, don’t detrend the temperature data. The low frequency regime is where you are going to see the action, due to the low pass characteristic of all that thermal mass.
Rog – don’t knock yourself out vs. Lief. It isn’t worth it.
Jim Arndt says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:20 pm
Most of the Jupiter sized planets found orbit quite close to their parent stars and are millions of miles away while Jupiter is billions of miles away.
Scafetta’s new paper lists observations which show the Sun burns slightly brighter on the hemisphere facing the centre of mass of the system, which almost always where Jupiter is.
The effect is much smaller than that on Poppenhaegers star. But then, we’re only looking for the cause of a 0.1% variation in output over the solar cycle. The surface of the Sun is at a boundary condition, where a small input can have a big effect (see Kelvin-Helmholtz and Rayleigh Taylor instability).
Whereas on Poppenhaeger’s star it’s just one planet causing a constant tidal effect, the Solar system has four Gas giants. The closest two have interactive tidally effective timing which coincides with one of the sunspot record spectral peaks near the cycle length. The orbital period of the largest coincides with the other. I crunched the numbers here
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/08/05/jackpot-jupiter-and-saturn-solar-cycle-link-confirmed/
Do check the reference to the earlier thread from Bart.
As Vuk pointed out earlier, solar flares which in terms of the Sun itself are tiny proportions of it’s energy release have a profound effect on Earth’s climate and weather systems, another surface at a boundary condition.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:48 pm
Then be sure to include:
“We can therefore exclude a stellar activity cycle to be the cause for the disagreement in activity levels.
Covered in my reply to Jim. Poppenhaeger’s saying her star’s activity is potentially at a continually higher level because of the continuous and constant tidal action of the close hot jupiter.
“This star is not acting its age, and having a big planet as a companion may be the explanation,” said Poppenhaeger. “It’s possible this hot Jupiter is keeping the star’s rotation and magnetic activity high because of tidal forces, making it behave in some ways like a much younger star.”
In the case of the solar system, the cause of the 0.05% increase and decrease in overall solar activity over the activity cycle it potentially due to the tidal action of the orbital of the largest planet and the cyclic interplay of it’s orbital timings with the second largest planet, and the timings of tidally effective inner planets. The period of the spectral peaks in the MEM analysis of the sunspot record either side of the average cycle length support the hypothesis. These peaks can’t be the side lobes of a ~centennial internal solar oscillation as you have claimed in the past, because as you told us some hours ago:
“The Sun’s memory is short [less than ten years].”
It needs the planets to jog its memory. As evidenced by the good phase relationship between the planetary index for JEV and the solar cycles.
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/rotation-solar-windspeed-adjusted.png
Bart says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:10 am
Rog – don’t knock yourself out vs. Lief. It isn’t worth it.
Eliciting Leif’s blundering accusations and self contradicting hypotheses is a great way to encourage people to work towards their own understanding, rather than taking his word as authoritative.
tallbloke says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:35 am
Poppenhaeger’s saying her star’s activity is potentially at a continually higher level because of the continuous and constant tidal action of the close hot jupiter.
No, that is your misrepresentation of what she allegedly said. Now, press releases are notoriously inaccurate, so perhaps not all the blame should be on you. In her paper she is very clear that she think it is likely that the Hot Jupiter inhibited the early spin-down that all stars have, leaving the main star with the rotation rate it had 1-2 billion years ago. You should have done due diligence and read the paper.
These peaks can’t be the side lobes of a ~centennial internal solar oscillation as you have claimed in the past, because as you told us some hours ago: “The Sun’s memory is short [less than ten years].”
Memory has nothing to do with it. As Lomb [ http://www.leif.org/EOS/Lomb-Sunspot-Cycle-Revisited.png ] points out: “As was shown in a previous paper [1], to be referred to as paper 1, this peculiar, always positive, nature of the sunspot time series means that any modulation period must show in the spectrum both as a sidelobe to the main period and as a separate periodicity” and such sidelobes are just what are observed.
tallbloke says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:40 am
rather than taking his word as authoritative
Nobody should my word, your word, or Bart’s word as authoritative. That is not what WUWT is about.
[ http://www.leif.org/EOS/Lomb-Sunspot-Cycle-Revisited.pdf ]
tallbloke says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:35 am
These peaks can’t be the side lobes of a ~centennial internal solar oscillation
The Sun is not an oscillator, the long ‘cycles’ observed the past few centuries are just random fluctuations and will not hold up. They didn’t going back in time.
I am not sure who is crazier Tallbloke or Scaffeta they both feel that everyone is acting dishonestly and out to defame them … LOL.
It’ science you lunatics you didn’t see Einstein complain when half the science world disagreed with him he just kept showing the error with each objection raised.
Global temperatures & Solar activity
Comparing global temperatures records to SSN or TSI fails since it doesn’t take into account physical interactions between solar and geo-magnetic interactions known as geomagnetic storms which to extent are reflected in the frequency of aurora appearances.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/AuGTs.htm
Both the spectral composition and correlation factor R^2 > 0.5 do point to a causal relationship. Direct geomagnetic comparison has a difficulty in separating effects of the solar input from the internally generated secular change, although it has been shown that the GT shows degree of correlation with the geomagnetic indices (Aa and Ap)
vukcevic says:
July 31, 2013 at 1:24 am
Direct geomagnetic comparison has a difficulty in separating effects of the solar input from the internally generated secular change
No, already Gauss showed in the 1830s how to do this.
although it has been shown that the GT shows degree of correlation with the geomagnetic indices (Aa and Ap)
Here is Ap back to 1840s: http://www.leif.org/research/Ap-1844-now.png there is no trend and no resemblance to the variation of GT.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2013 at 1:31 am
Here is Ap back to 1840s: http://www.leif.org/research/Ap-1844-now.png there is no trend and no resemblance to the variation of GT.
Visible aurora is caused only by the more energetic events, so Ap over certain value should be filtered out. On the other hand for aurora we have only number of appearances, but if intensity was known correlation factor could be even stronger.
You need to get one of your students to go and sift trough the aurorae appearance dates, read of Ap index value for the date, and then you will have the data and ability to judge the Ap-Gt correlation.
Dismissing possibility a priory top scientist in the field should not do!
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:56 am
tallbloke says:
July 31, 2013 at 12:35 am
Poppenhaeger’s saying her star’s activity is potentially at a continually higher level because of the continuous and constant tidal action of the close hot jupiter.
No, that is your misrepresentation of what she allegedly said. Now, press releases are notoriously inaccurate, so perhaps not all the blame should be on you.
There’s nothing ambiguous about the direct quote:
“This star is not acting its age, and having a big planet as a companion may be the explanation,” said Poppenhaeger. “It’s possible this hot Jupiter is keeping the star’s rotation and magnetic activity high because of tidal forces, making it behave in some ways like a much younger star.”
The only uncertainty left is from your lies about me making it up.
You are the liar. I did not make up the quote.
In her paper she is very clear that she think it is likely that the Hot Jupiter inhibited the early spin-down that all stars have, leaving the main star with the rotation rate it had 1-2 billion years ago.
That’s your misinterpretation of what She and her co-authors said. English is not your native language, so “perhaps not all the blame should be on you”. I explained your error earlier when I said:
“No Leif, it does not mean “in the distant past”. You are projecting.
“Has been” means “from now going back”. If she had meant “in the distant past” she would have used the word “was” instead of “has been” and wouldn’t have used the word “has” between “which” and “inhibited”
i.e.
“HD 189733A *was* tidally influenced by the Hot Jupiter, which inhibited the stellar spin-down”
Rather than
HD 189733A *has been* tidally influenced by the Hot Jupiter, which has inhibited the stellar spin-down”
You should have done due diligence and read the paper.
I did read the paper, how do you think I was able to provide the second quote on the write-up on my website? Your logic is as poor as your manners.
Does the 200 yr De vries cycle modulate global temperature or was the Dalton and maunder minimum and aberration.
The longer lower frequency cycles have a greater impact on the global climate than shorter cycles like the 11 yr cycle
The 61 yr cycle of the AMO is known to modulate global temp
Can l refer you to Qian and Lu (2010) . Their results would interest you
Constructive interference of many cycles intermittently produces the ‘saw tooth wave form’ like the Vostok ice core record temp’ proxy record. Milankovitch cycles
The role of the oceans with large thermal inertia and large lags in time for cause and effect will ‘hide’ the effect of the higher frequency /shorter cycles. Messy signal perhaps
I think l read that solar cycle length is more pertinent than TSI or sun spot number for correlation with global temperature change.
There are difficulties in directly correlating planetary, solar, lunar cycles directly with global temps’ due to lag times . Oceans etc
If you consider the planetary /solar/lunar tidal theory that is supposed to effect ocean and atmosphere circulation and the long frequency of the thermohaline circulation. Oceans have large overturning cycles..
Also have to consider resonance and harmonics
I think it would be interesting if you looked at some larger cycles like the de vries 200 yr which caused the maunder and Dalton minimum and plugged some proxy data into your algorithm to see the result
Anthony Watts says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:27 am
What Matthew R. Marler said. Exploring an alternate method isn’t defamation.
*****************
Fine, Anthony. You and Willis can continue to play around “exploring an alternate method” and systematically ignoring my arguments written in the paper that explain how the things need to be searched and understood.
Indeed, finding something in science also requires an “appropriate” method of analysis, not just a “generic” method of analysis. And it is here that the expertise plays a role.
Remember that to find something is a difficult task that requires good eyes. On the contrary, to claim that something is not observed is very easy. One just needs to close his eyes and even the sun disappears.
Because, as you say, you and Willis are simply play around with the data without knowing what to do with them, avoid the various accusations such as that my research is “cyclomaniac” etc.
After all
1) you are not truly understanding my method,
2) I demonstrated above some serious error in Willis post (he mistook PMOD for ACRIM composite and made major error in the interpretation of the spectral analysis technique)
So, do not jump to the conclusion if you are still doing your homework. If you do that, do not complain if I say that the post is “defamatory”.
ralfellis says: July 30, 2013 at 12:33 pm
Tallbloke posted a graph of his ‘planetary index’ closely following the SSN for 150 years, but you have not explained why you disagree with this graph.
Leif Svalgaard says: July 30, 2013 at 12:47 pm
I pointed out that the ‘close’ match [which is not that close to begin with, IMHO] has broken down for the last cycle. This often happens for spurious correlations.
_________________________________
Dear Leif,
So you are not disputing Tallbloke’s data or methodology, just whether his results have any meaning or not.
Sorry, but I would have thought that a phenomina that tracks the SSN for 12 or so cycles must have some merit. The Warmist Bedwetters are claiming a link between CO2 and climate based upon just half a cycle, and yet you think there is no merit in something that mimicks and follows twelve full cycles?
Your main problem appears to be recent discontinuity in the data. However, while I am not a scientist, I do have a gyroscope that will go through many precessionary cycles, and then have a fit and do something else, and then settle back into its original cycles. I am sure you must be familliar with many systems that break their cycle for a while.
.
tallbloke says:
July 31, 2013 at 2:08 am
I did read the paper, how do you think I was able to provide the second quote on the write-up on my website?
If you are so sure why don’t you do the normal thing and contact the author … it’s not hard generally the email is on the paper.