Cycles Without The Mania

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Are there cycles in the sun and its associated electromagnetic phenomena? Assuredly. What are the lengths of the cycles? Well, there’s the question. In the process of writing my recent post about cyclomania, I came across a very interesting paper entitled Correlation Between the Sunspot Number, the Total Solar Irradiance, and the Terrestrial Insolation by Hempelmann and Weber, hereinafter H&W2011. It struck me as a reasonable look at cycles without the mania, so I thought I’d discuss it here.

The authors have used Fourier analysis to determine the cycle lengths of several related datasets. The datasets used were the sunspot count, the total solar irradiance (TSI), the Kiel neutron count (cosmic rays), the Geomagnetic aa index, and the Mauna Loa insolation. One of their interesting results is the relationship between the sunspot number, and the total solar irradiation (TSI). I always thought that the TSI rose and fell with the number of sunspots, but as usual, nature is not that simple. Here is their Figure 1:

acrim tsi vs sunspot number

They speculate that at small sunspot numbers, the TSI increases. However, when the number of sunspots gets very large, the size of the black spots on the surface of the sun rises faster than the radiance, so the net radiance drops. Always more to learn … I’ve replicated their results, and determined that the curve they show is quite close to the Gaussian average of the data.

Next, they give the Fourier spectra for a variety of datasets. I find that for many purposes, there is a better alternative than Fourier analysis for understanding the makeup of a complex waveform or a time-series of natural observations. Let me explain the advantages of an alternative to the Fourier Transform, which is called the Periodicity Transform, developed by Sethares and Staley.

I realized in the writing of this post that in climate science we have a very common example of a periodicity transform (PT). This is the analysis of temperature data to give us the “climatology”, which is the monthly average temperature curve. What we are doing is projecting a long string of monthly data onto a periodic space, which repeats with a cycle length of 12. Then we take the average of each of those twelve columns of monthly data, and that’s the annual cycle. That’s a periodicity analysis, with a cycle length of 12.

By extension, we can do the same thing for a cycle length of 13 months, or 160 months. In each case, we will get the actual cycle in the data with that particular cycle length.

So given a dataset, we can look at cycles of any length in the data. The larger the swing of the cycle, of course, the more of the variation in the original data that particular cycle explains. For example, the 12-month cycle in a temperature time series explains most of the total variation in the temperature. The 13-month cycle, on the other hand, is basically nonexistent in a monthly temperature time-series.

The same is true about hourly data. We can use a periodicity transform (PT) to look at a 24-hour cycle. Here’s the 24-hour cycle for where I live:

santa rosa diurnal temperature

Figure 2. Average hourly temperatures, Santa Rosa, California. This is a periodicity transform of the original hourly time series, with a period of 24.

Now, we can do a “goodness-of-fit” analysis of any given cycle against the original observational time series. There are several ways to measure that. If we’re only interested in a relative index of the fit of cycles of various lengths, we can use the root-mean-square power in the signals. Another would be to calculate the R^2 of the cycle and the original signal. The choice is not critical, because we’re looking for the strongest signal regardless of how it’s measured. I use a “Power Index” which is the RMS power in the signal, divided by the square root of the length of the signal. In the original Sethares and Staley paper, this is called a “gamma correction”. It is a relative measurement, valid only to compare the cycles within a given dataset.

So … what are the advantages and disadvantages of periodicity analysis (Figure 2) over Fourier analysis? Advantages first, neither list is exhaustive …

Advantage: Improved resolution at all temporal scales. Fourier analysis only gives the cycle strength at specific intervals. And these intervals are different across the scale. For example, I have 3,174 months of sunspot data. A Fourier analysis of that data gives sine waves with periods of 9.1, 9.4, 9.8, 10.2, 10.6, 11.0, 11.5, and 12.0 years.

Periodicity analysis, on the other hand, has the same resolution at all time scales. For example, in Figure 2, the resolution is hourly. We can investigate a 25-hour cycle as easily and as accurately as the 24-hour cycle shown. (Of course, the 25-hour cycle is basically a straight line …)

Advantage: A more fine-grained dataset gives better resolution. The resolution of the Fourier Transform is a function of the length of the underlying dataset. The resolution of the PT, on the other hand, is given by the resolution of the data, not the length of the dataset.

Advantage: Shows actual cycle shapes, rather than sine waves. In Figure 2, you can see that the cycle with a periodicity of 24 is not a sine wave in any sense. Instead, it is a complex repeating waveform. And often, the shape of the wave-form resulting from the periodicity transform contains much valuable information. For example, in Figure 2, from 6AM until noon, we can see how the increasing solar radiation results in a surprisingly linear increase of temperature with time. Once that peaks, the temperature drops rapidly until 11 PM. Then the cooling slows, and continues (again surprisingly linearly) from 11PM until sunrise.

As another example, suppose that we have a triangle wave with a period of 19 and a sine wave with a period of 17. We add them together, and we get a complex wave form. Using Fourier analysis we can get the underlying sine waves making up the complex wave form … but Fourier won’t give us the triangle wave and the sine wave. Periodicity analysis does that, showing the actual shapes of the waves just as in Figure 2.

Advantage: Can sometimes find cycles Fourier can’t find. See the example here, and the discussion in Sethares and Staley.

Advantage: No “ringing” or aliasing from end effects. Fourier analysis suffers from the problem that the dataset is of finite length. This can cause “ringing” or aliasing when you go from the time domain to the frequency domain. Periodicity analysis doesn’t have these issues

Advantage: Relatively resistant to missing data. As the H&W2011 states, they’ve had to use a variant of the Fourier transform to analyze the data because of missing values. The PT doesn’t care about missing data, it just affects the error bars.

Advantage: Cycle strengths are actually measured. If the periodicity analysis say that there’s no strength in a certain cycle length, that’s not a theoretical statement. It’s a measurement of the strength of that actual cycle compared to the other cycles in the data.

Advantage: Computationally reasonably fast. The periodicity function I post below written in the computer language “R”, running  on my machine (MacBook Pro) does a full periodicity transform (all cycles up to 1/3 the dataset length) on a dataset of 70,000 data points in about forty seconds. Probably could be sped up, all suggestions accepted, my programming skills in R are … well, not impressive.

Disadvantage: Periodicity cycles are neither orthogonal nor unique. There’s only one big disadvantage, which applies to the decomposition of the signal into its cyclical components. With the Fourier Transform, the sine waves that it finds are independent of each other. When you decompose the original signal into sine waves, the order in which you remove them makes no difference. With the Periodicity Transform, on the other hand, the signals are not independent. A signal with a period of ten years, for example, will also appear at twenty and thirty years and so on. As a result, the order in which you decompose the signal becomes important. See Sethares and Staley for a full discussion of decomposition methods.

A full periodicity analysis looks at the strength of the signal at all possible frequencies up to the longest practical length, which for me is a third of the length of the dataset. That gives three full cycles for the longest period. However, I don’t trust the frequencies at the longest end of the scale as much as those at the shorter end. The margin of error in a periodicity analysis is less for the shorter cycles, because it is averaging over more cycles.

So to begin the discussion, let me look at the Fourier Transform and the Periodicity Transform of the SIDC sunspot data. In the H&W2011 paper they show the following figure for the Fourier results:

fourier analysis sunspot number

Figure 3. Fourier spectrum of SIDC daily sunspot numbers.

In this, we’re seeing the problem of the lack of resolution in the Fourier Transform. The dataset is 50 years in length. So the only frequencies used by the Fourier analysis are 50/2 years, 50/3 years, 50/4 years, and so on. This only gives values at cycle lengths of around 12.5, 10, and 8.3 years. As a result, it’s missing what’s actually happening. The Fourier analysis doesn’t catch the fine detail revealed by the Periodicity analysis.

Figure 4 shows the full periodicity transform of the monthly SIDC sunspot data, showing the power contained in each cycle length from 3 to 88 years (a third of the dataset length).

periodicity monthly sunspot 3 to 88

Figure 4. Periodicity transform of monthly SIDC sunspot numbers. The “Power Index” is the RMS power in the cycle divided by the square root of the cycle length. Vertical dotted lines show the eleven-year cycles, vertical solid lines show the ten-year cycles.

This graph is a typical periodicity transform of a dataset containing clear cycles. The length of the cycles is shown on the bottom axis, and the strength of the cycle is shown on the vertical axis.

Now as you might expect in a sunspot analysis, the strongest underlying signal is an eleven year cycle. The second strongest signal is ten years. As mentioned above, these same cycles reappear at 20 and 22 years, 30 and 33 years, and so on. However, it is clear that the main periodicity in the sunspot record is in the cluster of frequencies right around the 11 year mark. Figure 5 shows a closeup of the cycle lengths from nine to thirteen years.:

periodicity analysis monthly sunspot count

Figure 5. Closeup of Figure 4, showing the strength of the cycles with lengths from 9 years to 13 years.

Note that in place of the single peak at around 11 years shown in the Fourier analysis, the periodicity analysis shows three clear peaks at 10 years, 11 years, and 11 years 10 months. Also, you can see the huge advantage in accuracy of the periodicity analysis over the Fourier analysis. It samples the actual cycles at a resolution of one month.

Now, before anyone points out that 11 years 10 months is the orbital period of Jupiter, yes, it is. But then ten years, and eleven years, the other two peaks, are not the orbital period of anything I know of … so that may or may not be a coincidence. In any case, it doesn’t matter whether the 11 years 10 months is Jupiter or not, any more than it matters if 10 years is the orbital period of something else. Those are just the frequencies involved to the nearest month. We’ll see below why Jupiter may not be so important.

Next, we can take another look at the sunspot data, but this time using daily sunspot data. Here are the cycles from nine to thirteen years in that dataset.

periodicity analysis daily sunspot count

Figure 6. As in figure 5, except using daily data.

In this analysis, we see peaks at 10.1, 10.8, and 11.9 years. This analysis of daily data is much the same as the previous analysis of monthly data shown in Figure 5, albeit with greater resolution. So this should settle the size of the sunspot cycles and enshrine Jupiter in the pantheon, right?

Well … no. We’ve had the good news, here’s the bad news. The problem is that like all natural cycles, the strength of these cycles waxes and wanes over time. We can see this by looking at the periodicity transform of the first and second halves of the data individually. Figure 7 shows the periodicity analysis of the daily data seen in Figure 6, plus the identical analysis done on each half of the data individually:

periodicity analysis daily sunspot plus halves

Figure 7. The blue line shows the strengths of the cycles found using the entire sunspot dataset as shown in Figure 6. The other two lines are the cycles found by analyzing half of the dataset at a time.

As you can see, the strengths of the cycles of various lengths in each half of the dataset are quite dissimilar. The half-data cycles each show a single peak, not several. In one half of the data this is at 10.4 years, and in the other, 11.2 years. The same situation holds for the monthly sunspot half-datasets (not shown). The lengths of the strongest cycles in the two halves vary greatly.

Not only that, but in neither half is there any sign of the signal at 11 years 10 months, the purported signal of Jupiter.

As a result, all we can do is look at the cycles and marvel at the complexity of the sun. We can’t use the cycles of one half to predict the other half, it’s the eternal curse of those who wish to make cycle-based models of the future. Cycles appear and disappear, what seems to point to Jupiter changes and points to Saturn or to nothing at all … and meanwhile, if the fixed Fourier cycle lengths are say 8.0, 10.6, and 12.8 years or something like that, there would be little distinction between any of those situations.

However, I was unable to replicate all of their results regarding the total solar irradiance. I suspect that this is the result of the inherent inaccuracy of the Fourier method. The text of H&W2011 says:

4.1. The ACRIM TSI Time Series

Our analysis of the ACRIM TSI time series only yields the solar activity cycle (Schwabe cycle, Figure 6). The cycle length is 10.6 years. The cycle length of the corresponding time series of the sunspot number is also 10.6 years. The close agreement of both periods is obvious.

I suggest that the agreement at 10.6 years is an artifact of the limited resolution of the two Fourier analyses. The daily ACRIM dataset is a bit over 30 years, and the daily sunspot dataset that he used is 50 years of data. The Fourier frequencies for fifty years are 50/2=25, 50/3=16.7, 50/4=12.5, 50/5=10, and 50/6=8.3 year cycles. For a thirty-two year dataset, the frequencies are 32/2=16, 32/3=10.6, and 32/4=8 years. So finding a cycle of length around 10 in both datasets is not surprising.

In any case, I don’t find anything like the 10.6 year cycle they report. I find the following:

periodicity daily tsi 9 to 13

Figure 8. Periodicity analysis of the ACRIM composite daily total solar irradiance data.

Note how much less defined the TSI data is. This is a result of the large variation in TSI during the period of maximum solar activity. Figure 9 shows this variation in the underlying data for the TSI:

acrim composite daily TSI

Figure 9. ACRIM composite TSI data used in the analysis.

When the sun is at its calmest, there is little variation in the signal. This is shown in the dark blue areas in between the peaks. But when activity increases, the output begins to fluctuate wildly. This, plus the short length of the cycle, turns the signal into mush and results in the loss of everything but the underlying ~ 11 year cycle.

Finally, let’s look at the terrestrial temperature datasets to see if there is any trace of the sunspot cycle in the global temperature record. The longest general temperature dataset that we have is the BEST land temperature dataset. Here’s the BEST periodicity analysis:

periodicity analysis BEST temperature

Figure 10. Full-length periodicity analysis of the BEST land temperature data.

There is a suggestion of a cycle around 26 years, with an echo at 52 years … but nothing around 10-11 years, the solar cycle. Moving on, here’s the HadCRUT3 temperature data:

periodicity analysis HadCRUT3 temperature

Figure 11. Full-length periodicity analysis of the HadCRUT3 temperature record.

Curiously, the HadCRUT3 record doesn’t show the 26- and 52-year cycle shown by the BEST data, while it does show a number of variations not shown in the BEST data. My suspicion is that this is a result of the “scalpel” method used to assemble the BEST dataset, which cuts the records at discontinuities rather than trying to “adjust” them.

Of course, life wouldn’t be complete without the satellite records. Here are the periodicity analyses of the satellite records:

periodicity analysis RSS temperature

Figure 12. Periodicity analysis, RSS satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.

With only a bit more than thirty years of data, we can’t determine any cycles over about ten years. The RSS data server is down, so it’s not the most recent data.

periodicity analysis msu uah temperature

Figure 11. Periodicity analysis, UAH satellite temperature record, lower troposphere.

As one might hope, both satellite records are quite similar. Curiously, they both show a strong cycle with a period of 3 years 8 months (along with the expected echoes at twice and three times that length, about 7 years 4 months and 11 years respectively). I have no explanation for that cycle. It may represent some unremoved cyclicity in the satellite data.

SUMMARY:

To recap the bidding:

• I’ve used the Periodicity Transform to look at the sunspot record, both daily and monthly. In both cases we find the same cycles, at ~ 10 years, ~ 11 years, and ~ 11 years 10 months. Unfortunately when the data is split in half, those cycles disappear and other cycles appear in their stead. Nature wins again.

• I’ve looked at the TSI record, which contains only a single broad peak from about 10.75 to 11.75 years.

• The TSI has a non-linear relationship to the sunspots, increasing at small sunspot numbers and decreasing a high numbers. However, the total effect (averaged 24/7 over the globe) is on the order of a quarter of a watt per square metre …

• I’ve looked at the surface temperature records (BEST and HadCRUT3, which show no peaks at around 10-11 years, and thus contain no sign of Jovian (or jovial) influence. Nor do they show any sign of solar (sunspot or TSI) related influence, for that matter.

• The satellite temperatures tell the same story. Although the data is too short to be definitive, there appears to be no sign of any major peaks in the 10-11 year range.

Anyhow, that’s my look at cycles. Why isn’t this cyclomania? For several reasons:

First, because I’m not claiming that you can model the temperature by using the cycles. That way lies madness. If you don’t think so, calculate the cycles from the first half of your data, and see if you can predict the second half. Instead of attempting to predict the future, I’m looking at the cycles to try to understand the data.

Second, I’m not blindly ascribing the cycles to some labored astronomical relationship. Given the number of lunar and planetary celestial periods, synoptic periods, and the periods of precessions, nutations, perigees, and individual and combined tidal cycles, any length of cycle can be explained.

Third, I’m using the same analysis method to look at the  temperature data that I’m using on the solar phenomena (TSI, sunspots), and I’m not finding corresponding cycles. Sorry, but they are just not there. Here’s a final example. The most sensitive, responsive, and accurate global temperature observations we have are the satellite temperatures of the lower troposphere. We’ve had them for three full solar cycles at this point. So if the sunspots (or anything associated with them, TSI or cosmic rays) has a significant effect on global temperatures, we would see it in the satellite temperatures. Here’s that record:

scatterplot uah ltt vs sunspots

Figure 12. A graph showing the effect of the sunspots on the lower tropospheric temperatures. There is a slight decrease in lower tropospheric temperature with increasing sunspots, but it is far from statistically significance.

The vagaries of the sun, whatever else they might be doing, and whatever they might be related to, do not seem to affect the global surface temperature or the global lower atmospheric temperature in any meaningful way.

Anyhow, that’s my wander through the heavenly cycles, and their lack of effect on the terrestrial cycles. My compliments to Hempelmann and Weber, their descriptions and their datasets were enough to replicate almost all of their results.

w.

DATA:

SIDC Sunspot Data here

ACRIM TSI Data, overview here, data here

Kiel Neutron Count Monthly here, link in H&W document is broken

BEST data here

Sethares paper on periodicity analysis of music is here.

Finally, I was unable to reproduce the H&W2011 results regarding MLO transmissivity. They have access to a daily dataset which is not on the web. I used the monthly MLO dataset, available here, and had no joy finding their claimed relationship with sunspots. Too bad, it’s one of the more interesting parts of the H&W2011 paper.

CODE: here’s the R function that does the heavy lifting. It’s called “periodicity” and it can be called with just the name of the dataset that you want to analyze, e.g. “periodicity(mydata)”. It has an option to produce a graph of the results. Everything after a “#” in a line is a comment. If you are running MatLab (I’m not), Sethares has provided programs and examples here. Enjoy.

# The periodicity function returns the power index showing the relative strength

# of the cycles of various lengths. The input variables are:

#   tdata: the data to be analyzed

#   runstart, runend: the interval to be analyzed. By default from a cycle length of 2 to the dataset length / 3

#   doplot: a boolean to indicate whether a plot should be drawn.

#   gridlines: interval between vertical gridlines, plot only

#   timeint: intervals per year (e.g. monthly data = 12) for plot only

#   maintitle: title for the plat

periodicity=function(tdata,runstart=2,runend=NA,doplot=FALSE,

                  gridlines=10,timeint=12,

                  maintitle="Periodicity Analysis"){

  testdata=as.vector(tdata) # insure data is a vector

  datalen=length(testdata) # get data length

  if (is.na(runend)) { # if largest cycle is not specified

    maxdata=floor(datalen/3) # set it to the data length over three

  } else { # otherwise

    maxdata=runend # set it to user's value

  }

  answerline=matrix(NA,nrow=maxdata,ncol=1) # make empty matrix for answers

  for (i in runstart:maxdata) { # for each cycle

    newdata=c(testdata,rep(NA,(ceiling(length(testdata)/i)*i-length(testdata)))) # pad with NA's

    cyclemeans=colMeans(matrix(newdata,ncol=i,byrow=TRUE),na.rm=TRUE) # make matrix, take column means

    answerline[i]=sd(cyclemeans,na.rm=TRUE)/sqrt(length(cyclemeans)) # calculate and store power index

  }

  if (doplot){ # if a plot is called for

    par(mgp=c(2,1,0)) # set locations of labels

    timeline=c(1:(length(answerline))/timeint) #calculate times in years

    plot(answerline~timeline,type="o",cex=.5,xlim=c(0,maxdata/timeint),

         xlab="Cycle Length (years)",ylab="Power Index") # draw plot

    title(main=maintitle) # add title

    abline(v=seq(0,100,gridlines),col="gray") # add gridlines

  }

  answerline # return periodicity data

}
0 0 votes
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

434 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
tallbloke
July 30, 2013 1:46 pm

vukcevic says:
July 30, 2013 at 1:20 pm
Dr. S’ recent conversion to 100 year cycle is somewhat ‘disturbing’.

Indeed. One year he’s telling us the helioseismologists know there are no periodicities in the Sun longer than about 5 minutes. Now he wants us to believe there’s one at 100 years or so.
The real reason for this is so he can claim the side lobe harmonics are what produce the spectral peaks near the average 11 year cycle length rather than the 11.86 years being Jupiter orbital period and 9.93 being the tidally effective half Saturn-Jupiter synodic period (time from Jupiter-Saturn conjunction to opposition).

July 30, 2013 1:48 pm

tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:06 pm
though it is worth quoting the author: “This star is not acting its age, and having a big planet as a companion may be the explanation. It’s possible this hot Jupiter is keeping the star’s rotation and magnetic activity high because of tidal forces, making it behave in some ways like a much younger star”.
See that use of the present tense there Leif?

I see a blatant lie as the word ‘keeping’ does not appear in her paper at all….
Nor ‘it’s possible’. The quote is a fabrication. This exposes you as dishonest. And utterly destroys your credibility [if any].
Bart says:
July 30, 2013 at 11:44 am
The important thing is, this all comes about because of fundamental processes at about 20 and 23.6 years. This is basically how long it takes for the Sun to return to a recurring state of magnetic polarity.
Regardless of the formal [and trivial] mathematics your conclusion is very wrong. The Sun does not work that way. There are no fundamental processes at about 20 and 23.6 years at work. We can already today with direct observations follow the evolution of the solar dynamo. we can see the flows inside the Sun creating the spots and the flows at the surface creating the polar fields. Those processes explain nicely the polarity changes every ~10 years. We can integrate the dynamical equations coupled with Maxwell’s laws and explain the dynamo and the cycle. Even predict the next cycle from observations before the minimum of a current cycle.

July 30, 2013 1:49 pm

For what it’s worth, I believe the surface gravity of the sun is nine orders of magnitude greater than Jupiter’s pull at the sun’s surface. I suppose this would generate tides measured in the tens of centimeters. (Do any of you have the precise figure?) We do need compelling statistics to accept causative correlation when no mechanism is provided. Wegener provided no acceptable mechanism but he did provide irrefutable statistics: continental shelves that matched geographically and geologically. And he was ignored. Darwin provided even better statistics but only philosophical speculation for a mechanism–good mechanisms came later–and he was embraced.
I’ll have to wait for one or the other, compelling math or a mechanism, before I fall off the skeptic wagon. –AGF

July 30, 2013 1:58 pm

tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:45 pm
if you want to claim data from the earlier paper on a different star system falsifies the later paper, then I can equally validly claim the conclusion from the later paper supercedes the earlier.
The earlier paper examines many stars and your conclusion about the present paper is confused [or dishonest] so you have no valid claim.
Of course he has changed his mind. In 2003 he declared the theory dead. Now he’s excited.
I know and work with Paul Charbonneau. His note in Nature was solicited by Nature. And Paul is not ‘excited’ about this. Instead he says “It may all turn out to be wrong in the end”, as there are already papers showing.
——
But your lies and ensuing lack of credibility make it unprofitable to continue a dialog with you.

July 30, 2013 2:01 pm

agfosterjr says:
July 30, 2013 at 1:49 pm
I suppose this would generate tides measured in the tens of centimeters. (Do any of you have the precise figure?)
Pages 7 and 21 of http://www.leif.org/research/AGU%20Fall%202011%20SH34B-08.pdf

July 30, 2013 2:13 pm

tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 1:46 pm
…..real reason for this is so he can claim the side lobe harmonics are what produce the spectral peaks near the average 11 year cycle length rather than the 11.86 years being Jupiter orbital period and 9.93 being the tidally effective half Saturn-Jupiter synodic period (time from Jupiter-Saturn conjunction to opposition).
or using double values as I did some 10 years ago and got
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LFC2.htm
I am sticking to pure electromagnetics, no gravitational tides on surface or core, angular momentum or acceleration, just simple electric currents and magnetic fields during solar energetic events (flares and CMEs). One more reason why we can see regularity in SC minima
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/ParkerSpiral.htm
not available via Newtonian mechanics.
One of most violent events in the electric circuit is short-circuiting, solar-planetary equivalent is magnetic reconnection source of aurorae (Earth, Jupiter and Saturn), which is one most likely to cause disturbance in both sun and the planets.
As far as I can see it, there is no other regular event of similar instantaneous change of magnitude, likely to affect both sides of the equation, in contrast with gradual slow moving Newtonian mechanics events.

lgl
July 30, 2013 2:15 pm

Leif
There are no fundamental processes at about 20 and 23.6 years at work
I would call a “22-Year Variations of the Solar Rotation” fundamental
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/paul-vaughan-comparing-jupiter-earth-venus-alignment-cycles-with-variation-in-the-solar-rotation-period/

July 30, 2013 2:25 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 2:01 pm
========================
So Venus raises a tide on the sun about the same as Jupiter, 176 vs. 184 microns. Thanks. –AGF

July 30, 2013 2:34 pm

lgl says:
July 30, 2013 at 2:15 pm
I would call a “22-Year Variations of the Solar Rotation” fundamental
There is no such variation: http://www.leif.org/research/ast10867.pdf

Bart
July 30, 2013 2:39 pm

lgl says:
July 30, 2013 at 1:37 pm
“Thanks for the details, but where is the ~100 yr cycle?”
It is the 131 year beat cycle. I am perplexed that you would ask. Are we not seeing eye-to-eye on this?
I could be wrong, but I do not think this is a planetary phenomenon. I think it is more likely a couple of resonances in solar dynamics being randomly driven by the chaotic fusion reaction. Just as a pendulum swings back and forth at a set rhythm, or a bell rings at a particular tone, or a bowl of water sloshes with a prescribed regularity. Such resonances abound in natural systems. All you need to do is provide them with energy.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 1:48 pm
“There are no fundamental processes at about 20 and 23.6 years at work.”
That is incorrect. This is the timeline under which the magnetic state of the Sun recurs.
“Those processes explain nicely the polarity changes every ~10 years.”
Yes, and it changes back in twice that. A frequency is the inverse of the period required to go from one state to another, and then return to the original state.
“We can integrate the dynamical equations coupled with Maxwell’s laws and explain the dynamo and the cycle.”
That does not make the description unique. There are an infinite number of equivalent representations of a given system. Some are more fundamental and straightforward than others.

Bart
July 30, 2013 2:47 pm

“Some are more fundamental and straightforward than others.”
For example, Hamilton’s equations give one description of a classical dynamic system. The Hamilton-Jacobi formalism provides another. They are entirely equivalent. Yet, the latter is the gateway to quantum mechanics, providing a wider vista into fundamental reality.

July 30, 2013 2:47 pm

Bart says:
July 30, 2013 at 2:39 pm
“There are no fundamental processes at about 20 and 23.6 years at work.”
That is incorrect. This is the timeline under which the magnetic state of the Sun recurs.

There is no ‘recurrence’ in a real sense, each cycle runs it own course. The Sun’s memory is short [less than ten years].
A frequency is the inverse of the period required to go from one state to another, and then return to the original state.
The Sun does not return to its ‘original state’. It doesn’t know what it was.
“We can integrate the dynamical equations coupled with Maxwell’s laws and explain the dynamo and the cycle.”
That does not make the description unique. There are an infinite number of equivalent representations of a given system. Some are more fundamental and straightforward than others.

Some are the actual physics that go on, and that is the fundamental one. Your periods belong among the infinitely many other descriptions of the system.

Bart
July 30, 2013 2:58 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 2:47 pm
“The Sun does not return to its ‘original state’. It doesn’t know what it was.”
This is a stochastic system. When I say “it’s original state”, I mean it in a mean sense.
“Some are the actual physics that go on, and that is the fundamental one.”
What a terribly naive viewpoint. I’m not going to argue with you about this again. Think whatever you like.

July 30, 2013 3:05 pm

Bart says:
July 30, 2013 at 2:58 pm
What a terribly naive viewpoint. I’m not going to argue with you about this again. Think whatever you like.
ditto

tallbloke
July 30, 2013 3:20 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 1:48 pm
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:06 pm
though it is worth quoting the author: “This star is not acting its age, and having a big planet as a companion may be the explanation. It’s possible this hot Jupiter is keeping the star’s rotation and magnetic activity high because of tidal forces, making it behave in some ways like a much younger star”.
See that use of the present tense there Leif?
I see a blatant lie as the word ‘keeping’ does not appear in her paper at all….
Where did I claim the quote came from the paper Leif?. It’s a Poppenhaeger quote from NASA’s news feed regarding the paper.
Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:39 pm
tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 12:06 pm
though it is worth quoting the author
What she actually said was:
“it a more likely possibility that the stellar angular momentum of HD 189733A has been tidally influenced by the Hot Jupiter, which has inhibited the stellar spin-down enough to enable the star to maintain the relatively high magnetic activity we observe today”
This is a has been scenario in the distant past
Yes Leif, I provided that quote in my write up in addition to the other quote.
No Leif, it does not mean “in the distant past”. You are projecting.
“Has been means “from now going back”. If she had meant “in the distant past” she would have used the word “was” instead of “has been” and wouldn’t have used the word “has” between “which” and “inhibited”
i.e.
“HD 189733A was tidally influenced by the Hot Jupiter, which inhibited the stellar spin-down”
Here ends the grammar lesson. Your manners are beyond redemption

tallbloke
July 30, 2013 3:24 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 30, 2013 at 2:47 pm
There is no ‘recurrence’ in a real sense, each cycle runs it own course. The Sun’s memory is short [less than ten years].

Funny thing that, because Leif also claims that every hundred years,The Sun remembers to do something.
Truth is, he’s tripping over his own fabrications.

July 30, 2013 4:48 pm

tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 3:20 pm
though it is worth quoting the author…
Where did I claim the quote came from the paper Leif?

You mean you didn’t even read the paper? Shame on you.
No Leif, it does not mean “in the distant past”. You are projecting.
Standard stellar theory provides for a spin-down in the first few million years of a stars life. For a star now billions of years old that is the distant past.
Your manners are beyond redemption
Says the deceiver.

Matthew R Marler
July 30, 2013 5:42 pm

Leif Svalgaard: My comment was actually related to whether it was UV or IR that heat the Earth.
Ah. IR heats the earth [surface] more than UV heats the earth [surface.] That accords with my other reading. It is not what you wrote and I commented on, but I’ll accept your correction.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
July 31, 2013 8:22 am

Willis Eschenbach commented on Cycles Without The Mania.

Now we have 250 years of data

After seeing the sample size of the NCDC data available in the 1920’s, WWII, 1972-1973, we don’t have what I’d call good physically measured surface weather data until after the ’73 gap. The ’50s to the gap isn’t bad, but any annual average before then is based on so few samples, it’s not a good average, and any pattern drawn from them is likely spurious. CRU’s global temp suffers with the same problem, when I compared the NCDC stations to CRU’s land data, CRU had an almost identical set of stations.
Now you want to pick a handful of stations with long records, at least its real measurments. But not a lot better than picking “the” average spot and just getting the global temp from there.

July 30, 2013 9:00 pm

tallbloke says:
July 30, 2013 at 3:20 pm
Where did I claim the quote came from the paper Leif?. It’s a Poppenhaeger quote from NASA’s news feed regarding the paper.
Your lie continues. The NASA feed http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/multimedia/exoplanet-hd-189733b.html#.UfiJTNIQYRi that you linked too also does not contain your ‘quote’. You simply made it up, and then tried to cover the lie by another lie. How low can you go? Or haven’t we seen the bottom yet? Despicable!

Jim Arndt
July 30, 2013 10:15 pm

Leif,
Correct me if I’m wrong.
To understand how the magnetic fields work is not that they remember the previous cycle. What happens is that the magnetic fields (flux) strengthens as the cycle gets closer to maximum and then reverses and slowly degrade until it reaches minimum. Why some might say it remembers the last cycle is that there is left over flux still there at minimum. The strength of the flux at minimum give an indication of the size of the next cycle so it does not remember but is a continuation. So if the flux ix very low at the end of the cycle then the next cycle should also be low. What Livingston and Penn are saying is that the flux will be so low that the spots magnetic field will be so low that the spots wont show except for plaque. What will be interesting is that if they are right will the TSI and F10.7 still continue the cycle (spot disconnect).
On a side note the food fight with Tallbloke, he has to say to himself why would Leif make stuff up since he has much to lose to fabricate anything he says here. He would be dropped in a second by the institutions that hire him if he was to doing something that sophomoric.

July 30, 2013 10:38 pm

Jim Arndt says:
July 30, 2013 at 10:15 pm
What happens is that the magnetic fields (flux) strengthens as the cycle gets closer to maximum and then reverses and slowly degrade until it reaches minimum.
Not quite. The polar fields are dragged down into the sun and are amplified by induction. Now, the field is not uniform. It consists of many ‘strands’ or filaments. Each if these is amplified. Once the field strength in a strand reaches a certain value [always the same] the strand becomes buoyant and rises to the surface. On its way up, the strand is shredded into many thinner strands. Once at the surface these thin strands [magnetic spaghetti] assemble into visible sunspots. The sunspots decay by the granulation nibbling away at their perimeters and move some of the flux away from the spot [more and more as time goes on]. The flux ‘debris’ is now moved towards the poles by a circulation cell [a bit akin to the cells in the Earth’s atmosphere]. On the way most of the flux cancels with flux of the opposite polarity also moving towards the pole. Only a small percentage of the magnetic flux [something like 1/100th] survives. The first flux to arrive at a pole cancels out some of the polar field already there where after subsequent polewards surges of flux build up the new polar fields for the next cycle. This is a very random process and has no or little memory. When the old polar fields that were dragged into the Sun is ‘used up’, the cycle fizzles and come to an end [‘dies’], but the new polar field is already in place and the cycle can continue. This is my version. Other solar physicists may disagree with some of the details, but there is general acceptance of the big picture.
The rest of your comment is basically correct:
The strength of the flux at minimum give an indication of the size of the next cycle so it does not remember but is a continuation. So if the flux ix very low at the end of the cycle then the next cycle should also be low. What Livingston and Penn are saying is that the flux will be so low that the spots magnetic field will be so low that the spots wont show except for plaque. What will be interesting is that if they are right will the TSI and F10.7 still continue the cycle (spot disconnect).
On a side note the food fight with Tallbloke, he has to say to himself why would Leif make stuff
You have that wrong. It is tallbloke who makes things up, big time, and lies, grossly. He should be ashamed of himself, but I guess some people simply have no shame.

Jim Arndt
July 30, 2013 10:51 pm

You have that wrong. It is tallbloke who makes things up, big time, and lies, grossly. He should be ashamed of himself, but I guess some people simply have no shame.
I think you misread I was saying the you have no reason to make things up and that he should look at himself and that you have no reason to do such things.
Jim Arndt

July 30, 2013 10:59 pm

Jim Arndt says:
July 30, 2013 at 10:51 pm
I think you misread
OK. BTW: I have collected the comments from tallbloke and myself into a narrative and posted that as a comment on his blog [he had already posted some of mine]. My comment is ‘awaiting moderation’. We shall see if it survives the gatekeeper and tallbloke has the moral decency to run my comment. Anybody want to put odds on that?

1 8 9 10 11 12 18