Here’s the issue, as described in Wikipedia:
The Arctic region is one of the many natural sources of the greenhouse gas methane. Global warming accelerates its release, due to both release of methane from existing stores, and from methanogenesis in rotting biomass. Large quantities of methane are stored in the Arctic in natural gas deposits, permafrost, and as submarine clathrates. Permafrost and clathrates degrade on warming, thus large releases of methane from these sources may arise as a result of global warming. Other sources of methane include submarine taliks, river transport, ice complex retreat, submarine permafrost and decaying gas hydrate deposits.
There’s an outfit called the Arctic Methane Emergency Group which dedicates themselves to, well, emergency alarm stuff. Things like this:
Planetary catastrophe is inevitable without geoengineering to cool the Arctic
Hold on there folks, some new research on actual Arctic soils over the last 20 years has provided some fresh insight. It seems there is no need to panic after all.
From Science News
News in Brief: Warming may not release Arctic carbon – Element could stay locked in soil, 20-year study suggests
In a 20-year experiment that warmed patches of chilly ground, tundra soil kept its stored carbon, researchers report.
…
In 1989, ecologists set up greenhouses on plots of tundra in northern Alaska. Air temperature inside the greenhouses was on average 2 degrees Celsius warmer than outside.
Over two decades, the team reports, mosses and lichens gave way to woody shrubs. Decomposition slowed in surface soil while it sped up deeper underground. Warmer soils may have allowed plant roots and plant litter to penetrate farther into the ground, increasing both the deep soil’s carbon stocks and its rates of decomposition, the researchers suggest. Overall, though, there was no difference in total soil carbon in the greenhouse plots compared with plots that had no greenhouses.
Oh, that’s gotta hurt. Here is the paper:
==============================================================
Long-term warming restructures Arctic tundra without changing net soil carbon storage
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature12129.html
Seeta A. Sistla, John C. Moore, Rodney T. Simpson, Laura Gough, Gaius R. Shaver & Joshua P. Schimel
Abstract
High latitudes contain nearly half of global soil carbon, prompting interest in understanding how the Arctic terrestrial carbon balance will respond to rising temperatures1, 2. Low temperatures suppress the activity of soil biota, retarding decomposition and nitrogen release, which limits plant and microbial growth3. Warming initially accelerates decomposition4, 5, 6, increasing nitrogen availability, productivity and woody-plant dominance3, 7. However, these responses may be transitory, because coupled abiotic–biotic feedback loops that alter soil-temperature dynamics and change the structure and activity of soil communities, can develop8, 9. Here we report the results of a two-decade summer warming experiment in an Alaskan tundra ecosystem. Warming increased plant biomass and woody dominance, indirectly increased winter soil temperature, homogenized the soil trophic structure across horizons and suppressed surface-soil-decomposer activity, but did not change total soil carbon or nitrogen stocks, thereby increasing net ecosystem carbon storage. Notably, the strongest effects were in the mineral horizon, where warming increased decomposer activity and carbon stock: a ‘biotic awakening’ at depth.
=================================================================
What I get out of this is that plants overall did better with that extra warmth, and becuase they did better, the soil was managed better due to feedback loops. Yep, those unexpected surprises from “Nature will find a way” always get you when you least expect them.
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GENUG (@GENUG) says:
May 15, 2013 at 3:25 pm
Actually, the neutralization of the ocean is barely detectable, and we have little historical information with which to compare it.
Nice try at shrill fact-free hysteria, though,
w.
Things burying AGW seem to be emerging on an almost daily basis now – taking studies such as this and media into account. It gives the sense of a long suppressed protest of dissent starting to emerge.
And again, anyone not ignoring worldwide measurements does know that methane [growth] has been declining in the last twenty years..
http://ds.data.jma.go.jp/gmd/wdcgg/pub/products/summary/sum37/15_plate2_ch4.pdf
Most of the Alarmists don’t care how wrong or absurd they are; they just shout loudly in the hope of attracting attention, funds, and creating some action (whatever it is).
We’ll be able to test AMEG in about 7 months or so. They state:
“Climate extremes are all too apparent resulting in food prices rising ominously towards a level which could put over a billion people into starvation next year and provoke food riots all over the world.’
and
“What is happening will seriously impact food, agriculture and the insurance industry in 2013,”
GENUG (@GENUG) says:
May 15, 2013 at 3:25 pm
Good practice is to end a post parodying warmist hysterics with “sarc off”. Not all readers get the sarcasm and might think that you are a genuine nutter!
“‘Shut up,’ he explained.” [Ring Lardner]
Glad ol’ Geenug started us off with a bit of humor. LOL.
Those AGW guys (head shake). They’re a laugh a minute!
Just a leeetle bit frustrated.
Richard Telford and DB are right. This paper is not about methane, and the abstract does not mention it. It is about total soil carbon.
“Decomp = methane. They point out decomp sped up initially, then leveled off as plant systems started to manage better.”
No, decomp usually produces carbon dioxide. Methane would only be produced in a totally anaerobic environment, where the roots of the woody plants could not survive. There’s no evidence of that here.
Like the approach of this guy: Georg Delisle – permafrost expert – pulls no punches
“…it is utter imbecility to suppose that the entire permafrost could thaw out by the end of the century. It would take thousands of years.”
His study ‘Near-surface permafrost degradation: How severe during the 21st century?’ was the basis for his presentation.
From http://notrickszone.com/2012/12/01/permafrost-far-more-stable-than-claimed-german-expert-calls-danger-of-it-thawing-out-utter-imbicility/
Geoscientist and permafrost expert Georg Delisle from Hanover presented his research.
He studied time periods from the last 10,000 years when the global temperature was warmer than today for several thousand years by as much as 6°C. Ice cores that had been extracted from Antarctica and Greenland provide exact information about the composition of the atmosphere during these warm periods.
His conclusion: ‘The ice cores from both Greenland and Antarctica provide no indication of any elevated release of greenhouse gases at any time even though back then a deep thawing of the permafrost when compared to today would have been the case.’
http://donnerunddoria.welt.de/files/2012/11/2007GL029323.pdf
So now what are we going to do with our huge, half-built, planetary catastrophe averting, geo-engineering device???
Bloke down the pub says:
[on WUWT Diminishing CO2 Returns Thread at: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/05/08/the-effectiveness-of-co2-as-a-greenhouse-gas-becomes-ever-more-marginal-with-greater-concentration/ ]
on May 8, 2013 at 1:57 PM
“[*] is one of the reasons warmists bang on about ocean ‘acidification’. They know mother nature won’t play ball with warming so they need something else to scare the children with.”
*
MODTRAN calculates that 50% of the warming effect of current (almost 400 ppm) CO2 levels would be accomplished by just 20 ppm CO2 (for a tropical atmosphere w/ constant relative humidity):
http://www.burtonsys.com/climate/MODTRAN_etc.html
The NCAR radiation code says that 40 ppm CO2 would be needed to get 50% of the current CO2-caused warming, rather than 20 ppm, but, either way, … we’re well past the point of diminishing returns w/r/t the warming effect of CO2.
The alarmist projections of wild increases in temperature are based on assumptions of dramatic amplifications of the warming effect through positive feedbacks. But for the tropical atmosphere MODTRAN calculates only +65% amplification from water vapor, and that’s really an upper-bound, because it doesn’t taking into account various negative feedbacks, such as water-cycle (evaporative) cooling.” [Dave Burton on above thread on May 8, 2013 at 1:25 pm]
Nick Stokes says:May 15, 2013 at 8:00 pm
Richard Telford and DB are right. This paper is not about methane, and the abstract does not mention it.
Nor does the abstract mention that the sky is blue, either. You know damn well, Nick, that the MSM has been spouting crap about the concern over methane release from a warming tundra for years.
Richard Telford, you argue consistently for the reality of AGW. What evidence can you deploy that supports your position?
You, too, Nick Stokes: where’s the evidence that supports your position on the reality of AGW?
The mind boggles at the number of deluded people who think that catastrophe is right around the corner. How in he#$ do these people think that the Earth has reached its benign environment after 4.6 billion years if there were such lethal traps everywhere?
When I see something like this, I simply have to wonder what in the anthropogenic world happened at the end-Eemian (yes, we were indeed there) when sea levels rose +6 to +45M above mean sea level (amsl):
http://www.uow.edu.au/business/content/groups/public/@web/@sci/@eesc/documents/doc/uow045009.pdf
Some say +52M amsl:
http://lin.irk.ru/pdf/6696.pdf
Immediately thereafter:
“…sea level fell with apparent speed to the MIS 5d lowstand and much cooler climatic conditions.”
http://www.uow.edu.au/business/content/groups/public/@web/@sci/@eesc/documents/doc/uow014948.pdf
We have little choice here. Something wreaked climate havoc, not once but twice at the end-Eemian:
http://eg.igras.ru/files/f.2010.04.14.12.53.54..5.pdf
On the other hand, if we do not restrict our inquiry to just methane we have this:
http://www.clim-past.net/6/131/2010/cp-6-131-2010.pdf
“Would you like fries with that?” inquires the attendant through the drive-thru climatesoup squak-box…….
Hey, Lew Skannon (re: 8:22PM), you want to know: “So now what [is the Fantasy Science Club] going to do with [their] huge, half-built, planetary catastrophe averting, geo-engineering device???” LOL, they’ll turn them all into …… electric sledgehammers! (still rakin’ in the coin — kah – ching!):
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Beaker+And+Professor+Honeydew&view=detail&mid=B122199DC39150EF79F8B122199DC39150EF79F8&first=0&FORM=NVPFVR
Got that link from an AGWer — figures (sorry about that, folks).
Let’s try again (just like all good modellers do!):
Go, Pat Frank!
Since they HAVE NO EVIDENCE, you’ll either be blessed with a peacefully quiet evening, or….. do I hear shuffling footsteps down the hall?……. Uh, oh…. put on your helmet and goggles (and nose plug) for —————— INCOMING! ———— large load of regurgitated baloney headed your way….. (ugh — AGW stinks).
🙂
the Muppets had it right all along !
Of course! #[:)]
At least (if Honeydew can perfect his design), it will be something USEFUL (can crusher?).
Edison would have been proud.
Janice, thanks. 🙂 I’m prepared to be shown the light, but “hand of god!” won’t do it.
I think it would be fair to say that this might be a surprise to those whose sole focus as a specialist was atmospheric meteorology.
It wouldn’t be fair to say that this would prove overly surprising to soil scientists, ecologists or agricultural biologists.
The lesson to learn is that reductionist science is entirely inappropriate in complex systems and that fluid thermodynamics specialists would have a greater intuitive insight into soil biology than those devoted to newtonian mechanics.
Just as biologists in the UK betray their ignorance when wading into climate politics, it may be the case that physicists should be cautious before straying into areas of complex system biology.
rtj1211 says: May 15, 2013 at 11:26 pm
“I think it would be fair to say that this might be a surprise to those whose sole focus as a specialist was atmospheric meteorology.
It wouldn’t be fair to say that this would prove overly surprising to soil scientists, ecologists or agricultural biologists.”
This paper comes from Department of Ecology, Evolution and Marine Biology, University of California Santa Barbara. They thought it worth publishing.
REPLY: I’m not talking about marine sources such as clathrates, I’m talking about earthen sources. Decomp = methane. They point out decomp sped up initially, then leveled off as plant systems started to manage better.
Unless of course you want to refute this headline story too: http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/09/27/501221/arctic-methane-release-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it/?mobile=nc
———–
So rather than admit that your post grossly misrepresents Sistla et al, you divert me to a realclimate-written post that confirms that Arctic methane releases will play a significant role in climate evolution, even if sudden enormous releases of methane are unlikely.
REPLY: My view comes from the way methane has been portrayed in the Arctic. There are numerous essays which suggest methane will be released from tundra. One of the problems in the use of the word “carbon” is it is often shorthand for carbon dioxide or for methane, they don’t make that clear. I read it as a combination of CO2 and methane from soil decomp. For example here’s a story about an NSF press release where Carbon and Methane are used interchangeably in the Arctic. From Think Progress
Here’s what the NSF says (much like what Nic Stokes says):
I’ve long been exposed to this idea, and that is what I thought was going on here since they artificially elevated temperatures. I just recent ran a critique of a story in the Guardian where we talking about how if surface vegetation is disturbed/removed, we end up with the permafrost below it melting which leads to decomp and methane release. In this study, they point out how a 2 degree warming was “expected” to cause issues like this, but instead the vegetation responded favorably, against their expectations.
Now I don’t defer the possibility that I could be wrong, but at the same time I’ll point out that when press releases and news stories are written, when “carbon” is used, it should be made perfectly which form of “carbon” they are talking about. From my perspective, the word “carbon” as shorthand for CO2/Methane in the Arctic needs to be clarified in many places.
Of course it would also help if Science would stop paywalling everything (including those studies done in California where I pay taxes to make it possible, where they should be public domain) so only those with perceived unlimited funds (feeding at the government trough – You and Nick for example) can read the papers. I went to UCSB looking for it, and was denied access. Of course if I had access to the paper, it may have clarified the issue to the point where it was clear that “Carbon” was not shorthand for Methane/CO2 in this case.
Next time there’s a story here at WUWT or elsewhere where “carbon” is used as shorthand, I’ll expect you to complain to the authors. Something tells me you won’t though, because your demonstrated holier than thou critical commentary is always one way.
-Anthony
Isn’t that Methane burried in clathrates below the ocean bottom?
Isn’t the temperature at that depth around 4 degrees or less, and isn’t that the case worldwide irrespective of what the temperature of the surface waters is?
So what is the problem?