Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
In my last post, “Emergent Climate Phenomena“, I gave a different paradigm for the climate. The current paradigm is that climate is a system in which temperature slavishly follows the changes in inputs. Under my paradigm, on the other hand, natural thermoregulatory systems constrain the temperature to vary within a narrow range. In the last century, for example, the temperature has varied only about ± 0.3°C, which is a temperature variation of only about a tenth of one percent. I hold that this astonishing stability, in a system whose temperature is controlled by something as fickle and variable as clouds and wind, is clear evidence that there is a strong thermostatic mechanism, or more accurately a host of interlocking thermostatic mechanisms, controlling the temperature.
Figure 1. The behavior of flocks of birds and schools of fish are emergent phenomena.
However, this brings up a new question—although the change in temperature is quite small, with changes of only a few tenths of a percent per century, less than a degree, sometimes the global average temperature has been rising, and sometimes falling.
So what are some of the things that might be causing these slow, century or millennia long drifts in temperature? Is it changes in the sun? I think that the explanation lies elsewhere than the sun, and here’s why.
The temperature control system I describe above, based on the timing and duration of the onset and existence of emergent temperature phenomena, is temperature based. It is not based on the amount of forcing (downwelling solar and greenhouse radiation).
By that I mean that the control system starts to kick in when the local temperature rises above the critical level for cloud emergence. As a result, by and large the global average temperature of the planet is relatively indifferent to variations in the level of the forcing, whether from the sun, from CO2, from volcanoes, or any other reason. That’s why meteors and volcanoes have come and gone and the temperature just goes on. Remember that at the current temperature, the system variably rejects about a quarter of the available incoming solar energy through reflections off of clouds. We could be a whole lot hotter than we are now, and we’re not …
This means that the system is actively regulating the amount of incoming solar energy to maintain the temperature within bounds. It doesn’t disturb the control system that the solar forcing is constantly varying from a host of factors, from dust and volcanoes to 11 and 22 year solar cycles. The thermoregulation system is not based on how much energy there is available from the sun or from CO2. The resulting temperature is not based on the available forcing, we know there’s more than enough forcing available to fry us. It is set instead by the unchanging physics of wind and wave and pressure and most of all temperature that regulates when clouds form … so when the sun goes up a bit, the clouds go up a bit, and balance is maintained.
And this, in turn, is my explanation of why it is so difficult to find any strong, clear solar signal in the temperature records. Oh, you can find hints, and bits, a weak correlation to this or that, but overall those sun-climate correlations, which under the current paradigm should show visible effects, are very hard to find. I hold that this shows that in general, global average temperature is not a function of the forcing. The sun waxes and wanes, the volcanoes go off for centuries, meteors hit the earth … and the clouds simply adjust to return us to the same thermal level. And this weak dependence of output on input is exactly what we would expect in any significantly complex system.
So if the sun is not guilty of causing the slow drift in global average surface temperature over the centuries, what other possible defendants might we haul before the bar?
Well, the obvious suspects would include anything that affects the timing and duration of the onset and existence of clouds, or their albedo (color). Unfortunately, cloud formation is a complex and poorly understood process. Water droplets in clouds form around a “nucleus”, some kind of particle. This can be sea salt, dust, organic materials, aerosols, a variety of types and species of microorganisms, black carbon, there are a host of known participants with no clear evidence on how or why they vary, or what effects they have when they do vary. Here’s a quote from the abstract of a 2013 scientific paper, emphasis mine:
The composition and prevalence of microorganisms in the middle-to-upper troposphere (8–15 km altitude) and their role in aerosol-cloud-precipitation interactions represent important, unresolved questions for biological and atmospheric science. In particular, airborne microorganisms above the oceans remain essentially uncharacterized, as most work to date is restricted to samples taken near the Earth’s surface. SOURCE
Here’s another example:
Cumulus clouds result from the ascent of moist air parcels. An unresolved issue in cloud physics is why observed cumulus cloud droplet spectra even in the core of cumulus clouds are broader than the spectra predicted by cloud droplet nucleation and condensational growth in adiabatically ascending parcels (Pruppacher and Klett, 1997). SOURCE
Cumulus clouds are one of the most common types on earth and we don’t even understand cloud nucleation there. The problem is that the size and composition of atmospheric aerosols, and the complex interaction between those aerosols and the various organic and inorganic atmospheric chemicals, ions, free radicals, and natural and man-made particles, plus variations in the type and amount of microbial populations of the atmosphere, plus the ability of one chemical to adsorb onto and totally change the surface properties of another substance, all have the potential to affect both the timing and the duration of both cloud formation and precipitation, along with cloud optical properties. As such, they would have to be strong contenders for any century-scale (and perhaps shorter-scale) drifts in temperature.
Another possible cause for the slow drift might be the proposed cosmic ray connection, sun’s magnetic field –> cosmic ray variations –> changes in cloud nucleation rate. I see no theoretical reason it couldn’t work under existing laws of physics, I made a “cloud chamber” as a kid to see radioactivity come off of a watch. However, one difficulty with this cosmic ray connection is that the records have been combed pretty extensively for sun/climate links, and we haven’t found any strong correlations between the sun and climate. We see weak correlations, but nothing stands out. Doesn’t mean they don’t exist, but it may be indicative of their possible strength … or as always, indicative of our lack of knowledge …
Another cause might be the effect on thunderstorms of gradual changes in the earth’s electromagnetic fields. Thunderstorms have a huge (think lightning bolts) and extremely poorly understood electromagnetic complement. They serve an incredibly complex electromagnetic circuit that couples the atmosphere and the surface. It ties them together electromagnetically from the “sprites” that form when thunderstorms push high above the surrounding tropopause, and from there in various ways through dimly glimpsed channels the electromagnetic current runs down to and up from the ground. Thunderstorms also are independent natural electrical Van de Graaf machines, stripping electrons in one part of the thunderstorm, transporting them miles away, and reuniting them in a thunderous electrical arc. We have no idea what things like the gradual changes in the location of the Magnetic Poles and alterations in the magnetosphere or variations in the solar wind might do to the timing and duration of thunderstorms, so we have to include slow alterations in the global magnetic and electrical fields in the list of possibilities, perhaps only because we understand so little about them.
The next possibility for slow changes involves the idea of bifurcation points. Let me take the alteration between the two states of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation as an example. In each of the states of the PDO, we have a quasi-stable (for decades) configuration of ocean currents. At some point in time, for unclear reasons, that configuration of ocean currents changes, and is replaced by an entirely different quasi-stable (for decades) state. In other words, somewhere in there is a bifurcation point in the annual ebb and flow of the currents, and at some point in time, the currents take the path not recently travelled and as a result, the whole North Pacific shifts to the other state.
Now, even in theory one of these two state has to be more efficient than the other in the great work of the heat engine we call the climate. That great work is moving energy from the equator to the poles. And in fact there is a distinct difference, one of the two states is called the “warm” state and the other is called the “cool” state.
Intuitively, it would seem that IF for whatever reason the Pacific Decadal Oscillation stayed permanently in one state or the other, that the world would end up either warmer overall or cooler overall. Let me explain why I don’t think the PDO or the El Nino/La Nina or the North Atlantic Oscillations are responsible for slow drifts in the regulated temperature.
The reason is that just like the thunderstorms, all of those are emergent phenomena of the system. Take the PDO as an example. Looking at the Pacific Ocean, you’d never say “I bet the North Pacific stays warm for decade after decade, and then there’s a great shift, all of the sea life changes, the winds change, the very currents change, and then it will be cold for decade after decade”. No way you’d guess that, it’s emergent.
And because they are emergent systems, I hold that they too are a part of the interconnected thermal regulation system, which in my view includes short term emergent systems (daily thunderstorms), longer term (multi monthly Madden Julian oscillations), longer term (clouds cooling in summer and warming in winter), longer term (3-5 years El Nino/La Nina), and longer term (multidecadal PDO, AMO) emergent systems of all types all working to maintain a constant temperature, with many more uncounted.
And as a result, I would hold that none of those emergent systems would be a cause of slow drift. To the contrary, I would expect that they would work the other way, to counteract slow drift and prevent overheating.
Moving on, here’s an off-the-wall possibility for human induced change—oil on the global oceans. It only takes the thinnest, almost monomolecular layer of oil on water to change the surface tension, and we’ve added lots of it. This reduces evaporation in two ways. It reduces evaporation directly by reducing the amount of water in contact with the air.
The second way is by preventing the formation of breaking waves, spray, and spume (sea foam). Spray of any kind greatly increases the water surface available for evaporation, depending on windspeed. Remember that evaporation due to wind speed is the way that the thunderstorm is able to sustain itself. So when the amount of area evaporating is decreased by ten or twenty percent due to lack of spray, that will commensurately decrease the evaporation, and thus affect the timing of the onset and the duration of thunderstorms.
…
OK, you gotta love this. I thought “time for more research” after writing the last paragraph, and I find this:
Sailors who traditionally dumped barrels of oil into the sea to calm stormy waters may have been on to something, a new study suggests. The old practice reduces wind speeds in tropical hurricanes by damping ocean spray, according to a new mathematical “sandwich model”.
As hurricane winds kick up ocean waves, large water droplets become suspended in the air. This cloud of spray can be treated mathematically as a third fluid sandwiched between the air and sea. “Our calculations show that drops in the spray decrease turbulence and reduce friction, allowing for far greater wind speeds – sometimes eight times as much,” explains researcher Alexandre Chorin at the University of California at Berkeley, US.
He believes the findings shed light on an age-old sea ritual. “Ancient mariners poured oil on troubled waters – hence the expression – but it was never very clear what this accomplished,” says Chorin. Since oil inhibits the formation of drops, Chorin thinks the strategy would have increased the drag in the air and successfully decreased the intensity of the squalls.
Hmmm … good scientists, not such good sailors. As scientists, I’d say they only have part of the answer. They should also run a calculation on the increase of the evaporative area due to the spray, and then consider that the hurricane runs on evaporation. That’s why they die out over the land, no moisture. Cut down the spray, put oil on the water, cut down the evaporation, cut down the power of the storms. And just like you get sweatier and hotter if a muggy day prevents evaporation, the same is true of the ocean. If you cut down evaporation, it will get warmer.
Of course, the counter-argument to the oil-on-the-water cuts evaporation and warms the ocean hypothesis was World War II. It put more oil into all of the oceans of the world than at any time before or since, and during the war in general the world was quite cold … dang fact, they always get in the way.
Having said that, as a blue-water man I can assure you that the authors of that claim are not sailors. Sailors don’t dump oil in the water to lower the wind speed, that’s a landlubber fantasy. They do it because it prevents waves from breaking and drops and spray from forming, so it can help in rough conditions. It doesn’t take much, you’d be surprise at the effect it has. You soak a rag in motor oil and tow it a ways behind the boat when you are drifting downwind. If the Coast Guard catches you, you’ll get a ticket for causing a sheen on the water and rightly so, but if it saves your life once, it’s probably worth it. Heck, when you’re caught in a big offshore blow, if it just has a placebo effect and reduces your personal pucker factor, its probably worth it … but I digress.
One thing is clear, however. The climate has been on a slow drift up and down and up and down, warm in Roman times, cold in the Dark Ages, warm in the Middle Ages, cold in the Little Ice Age, warm now … so while humans may indeed play some part the post-1940’s drift (down, then up, now level), it’s likely not a big part or we would have seen it by now … and in any case if we did have an effect, we still don’t know how.
I want to close by noting the power of the paradigm. If the paradigm is that greenhouse gases are the likely reason for slow climate drift because you assert (curiously and incorrectly) that temperature slavishly follows forcing, then you will look for variations in all the things that affect those GHGs.
But once the paradigm shifts to describing the climate as composed of interlocking active thermoregulatory mechanisms, we find ourselves with a range of entirely different and credible candidates for slow drift that are untouched and uninvestigated. It may be something above, or something I haven’t even considered, the change in plankton affecting the clouds or something.
This is why the claim that we have identified the “major forcings” as being say CO2 and methane and such ring hollow. Those are only the major players within the current paradigm. The problem is, that paradigm cannot explain a system so tightly thermoregulated that over the last century, the global average surface temperature only varied by ± one tenth of a percent … engineers, please correct me if I’m wrong, but given volcanoes and aerosols and the like that is a record that any control systems engineer would be proud of, and it is done with things as ephemeral as clouds. To me, that fact alone proves that the earth has a thermostat, and a dang precise one for that matter. A truly wondrous and marvel-filled planet indeed.
In friendship and exploration of the aforesaid marvels,
w.
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@Willis
I accept you are busy and also that you are correct in your attitude – but I will respond in equal measure. I am not actually annoyed. I personally don’t give a wet slap as to your motive(s). I enjoy your output/input here at WUWT, but your perceived brashness does you no credit when delivered in such a fashion! (though, from a personal perspective I genuinely understand and accept that). Be that as it may – that is your personal choice of expression and I actually do respect that choice.
I have no intention of repeating my response, or bothering to link to it for EXACTLY the same reasons you cite.
I would like to believe that in a crisis situation on the High Seas, you might be someone to rely upon – but from your attitude/reply, I am more reticent, which is a shame, but I also accept that appearances can be deceptive…..(I perhaps am wrong to trust in others, which is not a scientific derivation, but is indeed a human ‘belief’)
I remain, as always, open minded and honest – as per a true scientist, but clearly, there is little point in further attempted discussion here…..I don’t mind bloody mindedness, in fact I find that an admirable quality (in a scientific sense) – but obviously when two bloody minds collide………jeez, I’d hate to be amongst the crew on ‘your’ ship!
Suffice to say that your interest in ’emergent phenomena’ is of curiousity value – but, when you consider the big picture, I suspect that it is actually of no conseqence in the big scheme of things and hence I feel further elaboration pointless.
with genuine respect and regards (not necessarily diminished, but perhaps slightly demurred……..?)
Kev
Kev-in-Uk says:
February 10, 2013 at 2:49 pm
Kev, rather than just blow you off before, instead I said I’d be happy to answer your question if you’d just link to it. I told you I didn’t want to root around and find it, only to have you say I’d found the wrong one or something. I don’t play that mug’s game, been there, don’t do that any more.
If a man has a question, I expect him to ask it loud and clear, quote it, point to it, link to it, make it evident, make it transparent, easy for me and everyone else to see it.
You reply that have no intention of doing that.
Your choice, not mine.
Buh-bye …
w.
Love the article and the emphasis, Willis. First came across the concept of emergence in the eponymous book by Steven Johnson a decade ago (http://www.amazon.com/Emergence-Connected-Brains-Cities-Software/dp/0684868768) and you have done the real scientists here a service by drawing out its relevance to climate.
E.M.Smith says:
I wish I’d gotten to this thread sooner. Unfortunately, it was posted just while I was dealing with an issue that could not be ignored.
========
Thanks for all those links, could save some time. I’m currently trawling through ICOADS basin by basin 8.85 years and it’s harmonics keep coming up again and again. I’m already getting indications that what is called the circumpolar wave is a global phenomenon.
I’m going to check back the the Hadley processed data later, but with the work I’ve already done on that I think they have fairly roundly screwed any cyclic signals that may be present.
There also seems to be something very close to 10 years in N.Atlantic and clear signs of resonant patterns. I think the circa 60y repetitions are such a resonance. I’m hoping to be able to quantify that.
This should help to clarify whether there is anything related to SSN, I was expecting removing the 9y cycle would make the solar signal pop out but it doesn’t seem to be working out that way. That’ll piss off Tallbloke and his crew if it turns out to be the case.
Now if all this is shifting large amounts of water in and out of the tropics and shifting the tropical convergence zone, that should have some modulating effect on Willis’ thunderstorms.
E.M. Smith, Feb10, 2013 at 2:27pm @BillH
“The tropical ‘thunderstorm thermostat’ works, but only in a tropical / temperature regime; not in the Arctic / Polar one. It prevents rise above 30 C –”
I have been looking at the 30 C limit in the Ocean and I believe it is caused by a chemical reaction. When the water temperature reaches 30C, carbon dioxide exceeds it critical point on its phase diagram and no longer behaves as a liquid in the water. It goes into it’s gas phase and bubbles to the surface. You can see this change of phase when you heat a container of water to near 30 degrees and gas bubbles form on the side of the container. When the carbon dioxide passes through a saturated solution of calcium hydroxide, the ocean is saturated with calcium hydroxide, calcium carbonate is formed. For each mole of calcium carbonate formed, approximately 1200 kilojoules of energy is taken from the ocean. This process removes sufficient heat that the ocean does not heat above 31C.
I would like to know the source of the “thunderstorm thermostat” theory and what data backs this theory.
@Kev-in-UK & Willis:
Perhaps the two of you could save the time you are wasting telling each other how busy both of you are and how it is just too much trouble to figure out what you are talking about to just put “kev-in-UK” in the search box and link the comment in question. Took me about 30 seconds to figure out it is likely this one:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/02/08/slow-drift-in-thermoregulated-emergent-systems/#comment-1221280
Where the topic is heat storage in the oceans. I think the kev-in-UK question not addressed is one of these two:
Kev-in-UK then goes into an hypothetical of a meteor strike.
Point two is not easy to chop into smaller bits, so I’m just going to quote it entire:
Personally, I think that since most of the ocean is about 3 C and never changes, I think a large part of the mass is not involved in “inertia”. That it is only the top couple of hundred feet that matters (and then mostly via lunar / tidal mixing changing fast heat flux more than via absolute thermal ‘inertia’.
But you folks all seem uninterested in that clear, simple, and supported by published papers and observations cycle and would rather toss rocks at each other about how busy you are. So hopefully quoting this and linking it will save you enough time from complaining about having no time to take a minute to think about lunar ocean layer tidal mixing and heat flux…
(In other words, I have no dog in your fight but would like to help end it quickly so more interesting things could be looked over… that is, “my stuff” 😉
E.M.Smith says:
February 10, 2013 at 4:52 pm
Thanks, E.M. It may “likely” be that one … which means, of course, that it also may not be that one. Too many times I’ve done just what you said, found the “likely” one, only to be told that I was an idiot and that it wasn’t the right one, how could I make such a dumb mistake?
After a few times I wised up, I’ve given up playing that mug’s game. If a mans wants an answer to a question, it’s his job to tell me which question, not mine. Nor is it yours. In any case, he’s told me he won’t reveal the secret question, fine by me, he’s off my Xmas list, the world goes on …
w.
“For each mole of calcium carbonate formed, approximately 1200 kilojoules of energy is taken from the ocean. This process removes sufficient heat that the ocean does not heat above 31C.
I would like to know the source of the “thunderstorm thermostat” theory and what data backs this theory.”
John, you may need to think about how CO2 is out gassing and how much H2O is evaporating. I doubt anything will outstrip the amount of energy involved in the water cycle.
You might enjoy the later chapters of Kondepudi and Prigogine: “Modern Thermodynamics”. They conclude with simulations of nonlinear dissipative systems of a few dimensions, and show that even with constant input on a flat surface these can produce complex waves. Take this up to the high dimensionality of the climate system with its non-constant inputs, and it is clear that any simple of expectation of the course of the climate system (even a single summary such as global mean temperature) is inappropriate. There are many possibilities of how the measurements can be “drifting”.
The whole of this wartime record is pretty screwed in ICOADS shipping data and does not get better by the time Hadley have finished messing with it .
eg Atlantic SST shows up and down steps of about 0.4C , maritime air temp does about the same. S Pacific steps up by about 0.5 and does not come down again. N. Pacific is so shot full of holes it’s hard to draw any conclusion.
Hadley SST2 just removed 0.5C from everything in 1941. The scheme I call Folland’s folly. That fixes SP but puts a spurious drop into the other basins. Then in HadSST3 they correct the bump but so an not to loose face they come up with another scheme that means that the same thing happens : Folland’s folly was “right for the wrong reason”.
Seems to me there’s on hell of lot supposition and generally making things up to fit getting mistaken for science.
I’m pretty sure natural climate was not jumping around like that in unison with US Navy. So either the war did produce an effect like Willis suggested or Americains just have a different way of reading thermometers.
Some practice the method of “nearest degree” others always round up ??
Since the record is an intractable mess, further speculation about whether oil was a factor is probably not going to get very far.
The idea is interesting though and the plot I did for Deepwater Horizon blowout area seems to show a real physical effect is credible.
http://nomad3.ncep.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/pdisp_sst.sh?ctlfile=monoiv2.ctl&ptype=ts&var=dt_ssta&level=1&month=nov&year=2006&fmonth=jan&fyear=2013&lat0=12&lat1=30&lon0=-90&lon1=-75&plotsize=800×600&dir=
Now that was a massive amount of oil in a relatively short space of time but chemical dispersants were liberally sprayed over the whole area, so it was fairly short lived.
E. M. Smith Feb 10, 2013 at 4:52
“Personally, I think that since most of the ocean is about 3 C and never changes, I think a large part of the mass is not involved in “inertia”. That it is only the top couple of hundred feet that matters (and then mostly via lunar / tidal mixing changing fast heat flux more than via absolute thermal ‘inertia’.”
There is a reason that most of the deep ocean is at 4 C and it is chemical and not inertia. When ocean water was formed it, the sodium chloride disolved in the water absorbed 4 kilo joules of energy per mole of sodium chloride. This is called the heat of hydration and it bonds the water to the sodium chloride. Fresh water begins the process of freezing at 4 C and the water expands as tiny crystal structures are formed and pushes the water molecules apart. When salt water starts to freeze at 4 C, it cannot because of the sodium cloride. At 4 C the salt water begins to release the 4 kilo joules per mole of sodium chloride and it does not freeze until the all of the energy is released. This release of energy heats the ocean and keeps it at 4 C until the process of dehydration is completed. There is a good explanation of hydration at http://www.docbrown.info/page07/delta2H.htm
@Steve Garcia:
There’s a pretty good understanding of the likely cause of D.O. / Bond events in the links I put above. In particular that pnas paper
http://www.pik-potsdam.de/~stefan/Publications/Nature/rapid.pdf
covers D.O. events pretty well, while
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/pubweb/~ashworth/webpages/g440/Grimm_et_al_Lake_Tulane.pdf
finds evidence for Florida being anti-phase to Greenland (and other evidence that the Gulf Stream slows down every so often causing those cyclical excursions). If you really want to understand the cause of D.O., Heinrich, and Bond events, read those papers.
I look at those papers and more here:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/d-o-ride-my-see-saw-mr-bond/
and link to a couple of other useful bits / papers / graphs.
The pnas paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/97/8/3814.full
finds plenty of reason to think that the 1500-1800 year scale cycles are directly driven by lunar orbital mechanics and tides (and even a 5000 year cycle). One chart from that report has us at a minimum of tidal mixing at about 1998 and increasing since (so more deep cold water cooling things off) right as the ocean SST have gone a bit cold…
So we have a stable “thunderstorm thermostat” state at 30 C, but we can cool down from there with certain ocean changes. Short term, lunar tidal mixing of the cold ocean layer to the surface. Sporadically on a longer scale via a shift of where the Gulf Stream descends near Europe and how it distributes heat. IMHO, the “slow drift” of the thermostat is due to mass shifting of lots of ocean water from one ocean to another as the moon shifts from ‘way north’ to ‘way south’ during a 1200 to 1800 year Saros Series. Animation here:
The tropical thermostat has a hard lid to the upside, as water evaporation runs to very fast in hurricanes. To the downside, it slowly loses ability to control (as you can only go to zero storms and convection) eventually halting all together at 0 C frozen ice sheets. That lets us drop out of the present stable state and into an ice age glacial. It starts first at the poles, and spreads as far as that albedo / non-convective feedback can get toward the equator. Somewhere in the middle things are ‘above freezing’ and the thunderstorm thermostat kicks in again. So Brazil is full of plants that are not frost hardy as it never frosts them… Temperate zones cycle between summer thunderstorm limited heat, and winter “pretend it is an ice age” frozen without downside control (other than solar / geothermal longer term). So a “Canadian Express can drop Dallas 50 F in a few hours ( I’ve been in it) but once things are at 100F, you are not going much above that if there is any water in the air or on the surface.
In short, the thermoregulatory system is asymmetrical due to water phase temperatures.
@jim G:
It, technically, isn’t the sun in Milankovick. It is the shift of the orientation of the Earth. Changes in the circularity of the orbit, the tilt of the orbit (precession of the apsides), and change of the tilt of the Earth ( wobble and tilt both, really).
Only when the N. Pole is pointed AT the sun for the longest time (which, counter intuitively is when summer happens furthest from the sun, so lasts several days longer) and to the greatest degree (more tilt and more elliptical orbit so the seasonal difference is longer) do we go over the W/m^2 above 65N that melts the Arctic Ice cap and gives us an interglacial. As soon as the Arctic freezes and stays that way every year we are once again back into a glacial with no turning back. Yes, the folks who want multi-year arctic ice and no melting of the ice cap ever are demanding exactly the conditions that will put us into the next glacial. Our present 428 W/m^2 are not enough to melt the ice once it is all multi-year and we are ‘metastable’ so can “go cold and stay there”.
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2012/12/29/annoying-lead-time-graph/
lays out the energy picture…
That we are metastable now, though, means that a 12 W change in the sun would put us hard frozen “right quick” and we would never recover to warm. As some folks have asserted a 7 W change during the recent warmer sun phase, and others have asserted similar single digit coolings possible when the sun goes quiet, we could have the sun kick us to ice. ( Leif asserts the sun is more stable than those other folks have claimed, and I greatly hope he is correct. To the extent he is right and it is a data artifact, we have more buffer from non-recoverable cold events as even volcanoes would have to deal with a ‘constant sun’ flux.)
@otsar:
I came to the same metaphor:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/spherical-heat-pipe-earth/
But I think that Willis has a better model in his ‘Thunderstorm Thermostat’ and that Stephen Wilde has a more elaborated mechanism for how it plays out toward the temperate zones, poles, and mass air flow shifts.
@terry Jackson:
Hershel first observed the connection, then Jevons studied a huge body of data from grain production around the old British Empire and pretty much showed a tie of grain prices to solar cycles. Since then we’ve dramatically changed farming methods and grain genetics, so to some extent we ‘broke the thermometer’ or rain gauge of grains. The original analysis still stands valid though as it used a more ‘uniform’ instrument 😉
http://www.google.com/books?id=4ckJAAAAIAAJ&lr=
I note in passing that our present financial crisis arrived with a drop in sunspots…
http://www.worldforextrader.com/sunspots-in-forex/
So there’s the references. Searching on their names and the titles will likely give better links. These were just the first I found.
@Willis:
There are vertical heat pipes that work via condensation, not with a wick. Not the usual kind, but they do exist. IIRC they are the kind used on the Trans Alaska Pipeline.
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/spherical-heat-pipe-earth/ quotes the wiki:
There are even some that pulse and develop oscillations:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/08/17/pulsating-heat-pipes/
so I think it might well match some parts of the atmosphere/ storm cycle fairly well.
Oh, and heat pipes do have ongoing regular heat conduction even if the condensation regime is not working in one end / area. Even some ‘chimney’ effects if they are big enough in diameter to have vertical counter current vapor flows. (Though it is not the preferred / designed mode of operation.)
@Retired Engineer John:
The Thunderstorm Thermostat theory was originated by the author of this article, Willis.
There’s several articles here on WUWT that lay it out.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/?s=thunderstorm+thermostat
pulls them up.
Oh, and I’ve seen both 3 C and 4 C cited for the temp in the ocean depths.
@Donkeygod:
I think that funding aspect you pointed out is causing many “researchers” to scrupulously avoid any topic that might reach a valid conclusion…
Greg Goodman Feb 10,2013 at 5:42 pm
Greg, the CO2 outgasses because the water temperature reaches 30.3 C, the critical point on the CO2 phase diagram where CO2 can no longer remain a liquid in water. The reaction is very strong and does cool the entire ocean to 30-31 degrees. Go back to Willis’s post of Feb 12, 2012, “Argo and the Ocean Temperature Maximum”. The precision and repetition shown in the graphs could not be matched by any processes that could vary with winds, weather patterns, etc. Willis had this to say about the temperature limit at that time “I want to highlight something very important that is often overlooked in discussions of this thermostatic mechanism. It is regulated by temperature, and not by forcing. It is insensitive to excess incoming radiation, whether from CO2 or from the sun. During the part of the year when the incoming radiation would be enough to increase the temperature over ~ 30°, the temperature simply stops rising at 30°. It is no longer a function of the forcing.”Now Willis attributes the mechanism to thunderstorms; however thunderstorms have no mechanism that will start and keep them aligned to a 30 C temperature.
@E. M. Smith Feb 10, 2013 at 6:45pm
@Retired Engineer John
“Oh, and I’ve seen both 3C and 4C cited for the temp in the ocean depths.”
I hope you did not miss my point that this temperature is set by a chemical reaction.
Three cheers for someone recognizing that 0.3K / 300K => 0.1%…
Forgetting the definition of 0 is one of the great sins of our great scientists. If we stop suppressing 0, we will have a great chance of getting the discussion back on track…
Greg Goodman says:
February 10, 2013 at 8:46 am
phlogiston says:
February 10, 2013 at 5:17 am This natural phenomenon will dwarf the sinking of a few metal ships containing oil in a small part of the north Atlantic for 2-3 years. So the WW2 U-boat and ocean cooling idea is interesting but unfortunately a FAIL.
====
It will “dwarf” because it’s “natural”? Did you bother to read paper you linked to? They did not establish it was diatoms, they assumed it. They did not even establish it was chemically an oil nor whether it was living organic or fossil in origin. (Probably also largely diatoms ironically)
markx says:
February 10, 2013 at 11:13 am
…
Atlantic Shipping Losses WWII: The Battle of the Atlantic:
3,500 merchant vessels, 175 warships and 783 submarines
Total 4,458 vessels.
Deaths (This, we should not forget)
Allied: 36,200 sailors and 36,000 merchant seamen
German: 30,000 sailors
Willis Eschenbach says:
February 10, 2013 at 10:22 am
phlogiston says:
February 10, 2013 at 5:17 am
…
Ahh, well done that man. I had thought the same thing regarding natural oil seeps, but your idea about natural oils is much more global and larger.
Good call,
w.
First it was never my intention to disrespect the many who died on those Atlantic runs in the face of Uboat wolf-packs. Our debt to them will never go away. “At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them”.
I looked further on the net for papers about oil from diatoms but evidence seems pretty thin. It seems it does happen, but its hard to say how significant it is.
Its just that the world is a big place, and to back up a claim that WW2 shipping losses caused oil coverage on seawater on a globally significant scale (such as to affect surface mixing) – or even in the context of the Atlantic – would require some figures to back it up, and I’m skeptical that the numbers would be high enough. Wave action and bacterial degradation quickly go to work on oil slicks. This phenomenon has frequently disappointed environmental activists by causing surprisingly quick disappearence of even spectacular oil spills, especially in warm seas.
As for Willis’ reply – either its agreement, which is puzzling, or its sarcasm at a level way over my head, not quite sure which.
BTW I attended a scientific conference in LA a couple of years ago. Among the available conference hotels was the Queen Mary ship, so out of curiosity I booked it. On the ship,
of a similar class to Titanic, I learned that it had made the Atlantic run many times during the war carrying US troops to Normandy and supplies. It was too fast to be in much danger from the Uboats. None-the-less, I found myself deeply in awe and respect of the ship, its history and the men who had made those runs.
E.M.Smith says:
February 10, 2013 at 6:45 pm
@Steve Garcia:
There’s a pretty good understanding of the likely cause of D.O. / Bond events in the links I put above. In particular that pnas paper
http://www.pik-potsdam.de/~stefan/Publications/Nature/rapid.pdf
There is a big disconnect in the climate community and literature – if you look in google scholar for “bipolar seesaw” for instance you can quickly find many papers simulating global deep ocean circulation and showing global climate variation on century and millennial scales, driven by this “natural” ocean circulation (featuring inter-hemisphere “heat piracy” among other things i.e. ocean heat getting smuggled across the equator as it is a present in the Atlantic – see Bob Tisdale and the north equatorial and carribean currents). However, on the other side of the fence in atmospheric climate science we are told that nothing other than CO2 is capable of changing climate on even decadal scales. This disconnect in the scientific community is astonishing.
I have several times commented on the phenomenon you mentioned the many “abortive” mini-interglacials that punctuate all recent glacial periods. In Willis’ first post on emergent systems I used this analogy:
Look at the Vostok and Greenland ice cores. It is very clear that glacial and interglacial states are alternate attractors, for every true interlgacial over the last couple of million years there have been dozens of abortive jumps, like a cat jumping to a branch but its claws not quite holding. It tries many times and every so often – as slow wavelike swaying of the branch from an external forcing wind (Milankovich orbital cycles) brings it periodically slightly closer to the ground, the cat gets into the tree.
@Retired Engineer John:
I didn’t miss your point. I just don’t see any evidence to support it.
I know this is a wiki, so ‘thin soup’ at best, but it was quick to find an looks about right:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyssal_plain
roughly quoting a table:
So we have temperatures from -4 C to 4 C and points in between along with some “highly variable” down to a km. (and I doubt there is a point change from 4 C to -4 C at 3 km).
So I’m not seeing a lot of room for a chemical stabilized temperature here.
There is also the small problem that lots of the cold bottom water is created at the poles from cold air at the surface. Again, a physical not chemical source / driver.
So you may have a great theory, that accounts for everything and all; but I’m up to my eyeballs in other things right now and just not feeling like exploring it to figure out veracity. Then there is that spectrum of existing ocean temperatures that make it unlikely to be so controlled and there are the gigantic volcanic arcs on the sea bottom spewing out gigatons of hot water and chemicals and it just looks a heck of a lot more complicated to me.
So I just look at it and say ‘anything below about 200 meters is darned cold all the time’ period. So any ocean ‘inertia’ or ‘storage’ of heat has to be in that thin top layer, not below. And the ‘below’ just becomes a constant, so not very interesting as to why, as it isn’t going to be doing much to heat storage.
@Phlogiston:
The geologists seem to have the papers that have the more likely correct results and the ‘disconnect’ seems to me to largely be the “climate scientists” from reality…
@E.M.Smith says:
February 11, 2013 at 1:35 am
@Retired Engineer John:
“I didn’t miss your point. I just don’t see any evidence to support it.”
The chemistry is straight forward.
Greg Goodman says:
February 10, 2013 at 12:53 am
Greg, I’ve been pointing out the same thing for a while now. You might like this paper on albedo change due to Solar angle to the surface.
Also note all of the Arctic stations are at the edge of the various land masses, and not on the “ice”. Arctic station locations North of 66.5 Lat. So measurements will be much more effected by water temps than Ice stations.
During WWII, the number of station records dropped off, so fewer records means more variability in temp.
RMB, you have posted twice about “surface tension” affecting the ability of a body of water to absorb heat from above. Certainly water can absorb heat from above. It’s trivially easy to prove. Take two buckets of water. (Kiddie pools would be even better since you want relatively shallow containers.) Put them in your yard when the sun is highest – one in full sun, the other in full shade. Measure the starting temperature in each. Come back in a few hours and measure how much they have heated up. The one in full sun will be substantially warmer.
I don’t know why your infrared-gun experiment did not quickly show the same results but my first hypothesis would be that your gun is single-color – that is, it emits on a narrow spectrum – and that it happens to be a frequency that is poorly absorbed by liquid water. Surface tension has nothing to do with it.
Now, if you tried the same experiment with a hair-dryer, you’d get a completely different result. A hair dryer will hit the top of the water with a flow of warmed air and (if it’s built right) have a baffle to prevent direct radiation from the heater coils. To control for circulation, you will have to hit one bucket with the heater on and the other with just the fan. Because of the increase in air speed, you will increase the evaporation in both buckets so we will really be comparing how much less the heated bucket cools during the experiment. The water is not “resisting” the heat – it’s just that the added heat is being offset by evaporative cooling from the increased airflow. The interesting thing about this version of the experiment is that as the very topmost layer of the water is getting warmer, it will increase its rate of evaporation, which cools it back down! Let the system reach steady-state and the added heat will be balanced out by the additional cooling of evaporation. The result is that warmer air in contact with water will not increase the temperature measured in the container even though it is clearly transferring energy into the water. (The extra energy is going into evaporation which you can demonstrate by leaving both hair dryers running and see which bucket dries up first.)
Continuing the experiment, if you pour a tiny amount of oil in your two containers, now the warm air CAN heat the water because the layer of oil reduces the surface area of water available for evaporation in both the heated and control containers. Surface tension still has nothing to do with it, at least not until you get up to wind velocities that can generate the spray that Willis talked about above.
People naturally believe that you can heat water from above, so did I. A while back I came across Trenberth and his “missing heat” and I realised that I’d never seen water heated from above. I got curious and grabbed a source of heat, a paint stripping heat gun. It operates at 450degsC, fan forced. I fired the gun at the surface for 5mins then noticeing that nothing appeared to be happening, checked the water, it was stone cold. With further experimentation I found that the only way to get heat into water from above was to first float something like a baking dish on the surface which cancels the surface tension underneath it and then the water will heat. Exactly how this works I don’t know but there is a contribution from Richard G that may hold a clue. I believe that surface tension has been seriously underestimated and needs a lot more study. To sum up, you can “radiate” water but you can’t “heat” from above.
@Retired Engineer John:
Yes, the chemistry is straight forward. I’m not disputing that. (Heck, I’m not disputing any of it). It’s what I had in high school. I just don’t see any evidence that that process has any lasting effect. Bottom Water is “all over the board” on temps ( -4 to 4 C ) and chemistry (black smokers).
It just looks to be orthogonal to what is actually resulting. An interesting “side bar” on ocean chemistry. Basically, I just don’t see where it matters.
@Willis:
Perhaps the fact that we are slowly adding a couple of days to summer and removing a couple from winter in the Northern Hemisphere would have an impact:
https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2013/02/11/interesting-change-of-season-length/
http://individual.utoronto.ca/kalendis/solar/Season_Lengths_30K.png
RMB says: February 11, 2013 at 8:06 am
“….I put a post on this site saying that I attempted to heat water from above and found that the water rejected the heat totally….. ”
Sunlight certainly penetrates and warms water (I won’t comment on wavelengths involved) …. read up on Solar/saline Ponds … these ponds do also occur naturally, but in the case of artificial ponds most of the heat is absorbed in the black plastic base of the pond … but there is no doubt it is penetrating to that depth.
With the water convection reduced by the heavy layer of concentrated salt in the bottom, the base of the pond can actually reach boiling point. The upper layers of the pond, by the way, are about the concentration of sea water.
http://www.enersalt.com.au/Local%20Publish/html/solar_ponds.html
Checked out the enersalt site but i don’t think it has any relevance to what I’m saying.These ponds will accept radiation but I say that physical heat from the atmosphere willnot penetrate the surface of the water due surface tension. I tried heating water in a bucket with a heat gun and found to my astonishment that the water totally rejected the heat. This disobeys the second law of thermodynamics which as I understand it states that heat automatically flows from a heat source to a cooler surface. I found by further experiment that the only way to get heat into water from above was to float a baking dish on the surface which cancels the surface tension underneath y and then heat will flow into the water. I think we have seriously underestimated the power of surface tension and it needs a lot more study as to its ability to block heat. Get a bucket of water and a heat gun or even a hair dryer and try fo yourself. To sum up, youcannot heat a gas in the atmosphere and have the heat from that gas pass into the ocean. You cannot therefore store “excess” heat in the ocean and if you cannot do that AGW is dead.
re: RMB at 8:14 above. “450degsC, fan forced” invalidates your hypothesis. What you are seeing is not a “surface tension” effect but the increased evaporation caused by the increased flow of dry air that you created artificially. That is, the evaporative cooling is cancelling out the heat you’re adding. The addition of a floating baking dish to your experiment works only because the baking dish is dry. With no evaporative cooling from the upper surface of the dish, the dish heats and conduction then heats the water. You could accomplish the same thing with anything that blocks the evaporative cooling.
This will be tricky to set up with only home equipment but re-run your experiment with moisture-saturated air. If you can saturate the warm air above your body of water, there will be no evaporative cooling. At that point, you’ll see a clear flow of heat from the air above to your body of water below, just like you saw with the baking dish.
Despite the expression that “heat rises”, heat does not in fact obey gravity. (Well, okay, actually it does if you get to the extremes where General Relativity kicks in. But for human-scale events, heat is essentially massless and ignores gravity.) And again, surface tension has NOTHING to do with it.
I admire tenacity. If the water was staying cool due evaporation, to remove entirely the calorific value that I’m firing at the water, Iwould very quickly find myself sitting in a room full of steam. There is NO sign of steam whatsoever. Evaporation does NOT destroy my hypothesis in fact it doesn’t even put a dent in it.
The purpose of the baking dish is merely to simulate an upside down pot which it does very well. The difference between heat uptake between uncovered water and covered water is about 8 times 6degs and 48degs.
And you are right about heat it has no mass therefore no weight so how does it penetrate the surface tension that we know is there.
I say that you can heat co2 until you are blue in the face, the “excess” heat cannot enter and be stored in the ocean because of surface tension and therefore there is no such thing as anthropogenic global warming.
RMB, you are confusing absolute and relative humidity. By increasing the temperature and velocity of the air coming out of your heat gun, you are dramatically increasing the carrying capacity of the air. Think of it like stirring sugar into hot tea – more can go into solution _because_ the water is hotter and moving. Air evaporating into water works the same way. You will not see visible steam until you exceed the carrying capacity, that is, to go above 100% relative humidity. So, no, you would not expect to see steam in the scenario you described.
Second, I believe that you are dramatically overestimating the caloric content of heat that you’re adding to the air (air has little thermal mass so it doesn’t take much to increase the temperature) and dramatically underestimating the calories “consumed” by evaporation.
Let me try to propose a different thought experiment for you to dispel this idea of surface tension. Let’s maximize the influence of surface tension by going to an environment with no gravity – say the Space Station. Squirt a blob of very cold water (33F) into the middle of the room. Surface tension will cause the blob to form a sphere. The surrounding air is about 75F. Do you seriously content that, regardless of the starting temperature of the water or the temperature of the air in the room that the blob of water will never change temperature? Of course not. It will gradually heat up until it is within a few degrees of the temperature of the air. Like a bowl of terrestrial water, it will always be a few degrees colder because of the evaporation effects but it will still warm up.
Actually, that proposes a terrestrial experiment. Sink a bowl in styrofoam or other insulation to protect all but the top surface. Fill the bowl with ice water. By your theory, surface tension will perfectly insulate the top of the bowl and the ice will never melt. That obviously does not happen.
First the ice experiment. Ice is a solid and does not have surface tension therefore naturally it will absorb heat and melt. Once the ice has completely melted and only water remains, I say that you will no longer be able to heat the water through the surface.
Second the steam. Steam is simply condensed water and is not dependent in any way on relative humidity. The fact that there is no sign of steam is a dead giveaway that heat is not being absorbed by the water.
Thirdly the space experiment. very interesting but I don’t have access to a space ship. I only know that on this planet, I can’t get heat into water from above and until somebody comes up with a better theory I think surface tension blocks heat and AGW is complete nonsense.
Remember that the water at the surface of water is not the same as water in the main body and I just don’t think we know as much about this as we should.
Surface tension doesn’t really matter until you put on the table a hypothesis that the sun can heat a gas called co2 and the “excess” heat created can be stored in the ocean and build up. At that point the properties of surface tension become vital. cheers