The logical case against climate panic

How the profiteers who market Thermageddon offend against the principles of formal logic

Guest post by Monckton of Brenchley

LOGIC is the heartbeat of all true learning – the soul of the Classics, the Sciences and Religion. Once everyone studied the Classics, to know that in logic there is a difference between true and false; the Sciences, to discern where it lies; and Religion, to appreciate why it matters. Today, few study all three empires of the mind. Fewer study the ordered beauty of the logic at their heart.

Is Private Fraser’s proposition that “We’re a’ doomed!” logical? I say No. G.K. Chesterton once wrote: “When men have ceased to believe in Christianity, it is not that they will believe in nothing. They will believe in anything.” The belief that Thermageddon will arise from our altering 1/3000th of the atmosphere in a century is in-your-face illogical, rooted in a dozen fallacies marked out by Aristotle as the commonest in human discourse.

“Consensus” is the New Religion’s central fallacy. Arguing blindly from consensus is the head-count fallacy, the argumentum ad populum. Al-Haytham, founder of the scientific method, wrote: “The seeker after truth does not put his faith in any mere consensus. Instead, he checks.”

Two surveys have purported to show 97% of climate scientists supporting the supposed “consensus”. In both, 97% agreed little more than that the world has warmed since 1950. So what? One involved just 79 scientists, hardly a scientific sample size. Neither was selected to eliminate bias. Neither asked whether manmade global warming was at all likely to prove catastrophic – a question expecting the answer “No.”

Claiming that the “consensus” is one of revered experts is the argumentum ad verecundiam, the fallacy of appeal to authority. T.H. Huxley said in 1860, “The improver of natural knowledge absolutely refuses to acknowledge authority, as such. For him, scepticism is the highest of duties: blind faith the one unpardonable sin.”

Believers talk of a “consensus of evidence”. Yet evidence cannot hold opinions. Besides, there has been no global warming for 18 years; sea level has risen for eight years at just 1.3 in/century; notwithstanding Sandy, hurricane activity is at its least in the 33-year satellite record; ocean heat content is rising four and a half times more slowly than predicted; global sea-ice extent has changed little; Himalayan glaciers have not lost ice; and the U.N.’s 2005 prediction of 50 million “climate refugees” by 2010 was absurd. The evidence does not support catastrophism.

Believers say: “Only if we include a strong warming effect from CO2 can we explain the past 60 years’ warming. We know of no other reason.” This is the argumentum ad ignorantiam, the fundamental fallacy of argument from ignorance. Besides, natural variability is reason enough.

They say: “Global warming is accelerating, so we are to blame.” Even if warming were accelerating, this non sequitur is an instance of the argumentum ad causam falsam, the fallacy of arguing from a false cause. They go on to say: “CO2 concentration has risen; warming has occurred; the former caused the latter.” This is the post hoc ergo propter hoc sub-species of the same fallacy.

They say: “What about the cuddly polar bears?” This is the argumentum ad misericordiam, the fallacy of needless pity. There are five times as many polar bears as there were in the 1940s – hardly, as you may think, the profile of a species at imminent threat of extinction. No need to pity the bears, and they are not cuddly.

They say: “We tell the models there will be strong CO2- driven warming. And, yes, the models predict it.” This is the fallacy of arguing in circles, the argumentum ad petitionem principii, where the premise is the conclusion.

They say: “Global warming caused extra-tropical storm Sandy.” This inappropriate argument from the general to the particular is the argumentum a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid, the fallacy of accident. Individual extreme events cannot be ascribed to global warming.

They say: “Melting Arctic sea ice is a symptom of global warming.” This unsound argument from the particular to the general is the argumentum a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter, the fallacy of converse accident. Arctic sea ice is melting, but the Antarctic has cooled for 30 years and the sea ice there is growing, so the decline in Arctic sea ice does not indicate a global problem.

They say: “Monckton says he’s a member of the House of Lords, but the Clerk says he isn’t, so he’s not credible.” This is the argumentum ad hominem, a shoddy sub- species of ignoratio elenchi, the fundamental red-herring fallacy of ignorance of how a true argument is conducted.

They say: “We don’t care what the truth is. We want more power, tax and regulation. Global warming is our pretext. If you disagree, we will haul you before the International Climate Court.” This is the nastiest of all logical fallacies: the argumentum ad baculum, the argument of force.

These numerous in-your-face illogicalities provoke four questions: Has the Earth warmed as predicted? If not, why not? What if I am wrong? And what if I am right?

Q1. Has the Earth warmed as predicted? In 1990 the IPCC predicted that the world would now be warming at 0.3 Cº/decade, and that by now more than 0.6 Cº warming would have occurred. The outturn was less than half that: just 0.14 Cº/decade and 0.3 Cº in all.

In 2008 leading modellers wrote:

“The simulations rule out (at the 95% level) zero trends for intervals of 15 years or more, suggesting that an absence of warming of this duration is needed to create a discrepancy with the observed warming rate.”

Yet the linear trend on the Hadley/CRU monthly global temperature anomalies for the 18 years 1995-2012 shows no statistically-significant warming, even though the partial pressure of CO2 rose by about a tenth in that time.

The modellers’ own explicit criterion proves their scary predictions exaggerated. Their vaunted “consensus” was wrong. Global warming that was predicted for tomorrow but has not occurred for 18 years until today cannot have caused Sandy or Bopha yesterday, now, can it?

Q2: Why was the “consensus” wrong? Why do the models exaggerate? The climate-sensitivity equation says warming is the product of a forcing and a sensitivity parameter. Three problems: the modellers’ definition of forcing is illogical; their assumptions about the sensitivity parameter are not falsifiable; and their claims that their long-term predictions of doom are reliable are not only empirically disproven but theoretically insupportable.

Modellers define forcing as the net down-minus-up flux of radiation at the tropopause, with surface temperature fixed. Yet forcings change surface temperature. So the definition offends against the fundamental postulate of logic that a proposition and its converse cannot coexist. No surprise, then, that since 1995 the IPCC has had to cut its estimate of the CO2 forcing by 15%. The “consensus” disagrees with itself. Note in passing that the CO2 forcing function is logarithmic: each further molecule causes less warming than those before it. Diminishing returns apply.

Direct warming is little more than 1 Cº per CO2 doubling, well within natural variability. It is not a crisis. So the modellers introduce amplifying or “positive” temperature feedbacks, which, they hope, triple the direct warming from CO2. Yet this dubious hypothesis is not Popper- falsifiable, so it is not logic and not science. Not one of the imagined feedbacks is either empirically measurable or theoretically determinable by any reliable method. As an expert reviewer for the IPCC’s Fifth Assessment Report, I have justifiably excoriated its net-positive feedbacks as guesswork – uneducated guesswork at that.

For there is a very powerful theoretical reason why the modellers’ guess that feedbacks triple direct warming is erroneous. The closed-loop feedback gain implicit in the IPCC’s climate-sensitivity interval 3.3[2.0, 4.5] Cº per CO2 doubling falls on the interval 0.62[0.42, 0.74]. However, process engineers building electronic circuits, who invented feedback mathematics, tell us any loop gain much above zero is far too near the singularity – at a loop gain of 1 – in the feedback-amplification function.

At high gain, the geological record would show violent oscillations between extremes of warming and cooling. Yet for 64 million years the Earth’s surface temperature has fluctuated by only 3%, or 8 Cº, either side of the long- run mean. These fluctuations can give us an ice-planet at one moment and a hothouse Earth the next, but they are altogether inconsistent with a loop gain anywhere near as close to the singularity as modellers’ estimates imply.

Surface temperature changes little, for homoeostatic conditions prevail. The atmosphere’s lower bound, the ocean, is a vast heat-sink 1100 times denser than the air: one reason why 3000 bathythermographs deployed in 2006 have detected no significant ocean warming. The atmosphere’s upper bound is outer space, to which any excess heat radiates harmlessly away. Homoeostasis, then, is what we should expect, and it is what we get. Thus the climatic loop gain cannot much exceed zero, so the warming at CO2 doubling will be a harmless 1 Cº.

Yet the overriding difficulty in trying to model the climate is that it behaves as a chaotic object. We can never measure the values of its millions of defining parameters at any chosen moment to a sufficient precision to permit reliable projection of the bifurcations, or Sandy-like departures from an apparently steady state, that are inherent in the evolution of all objects that behave chaotically. Therefore, reliable, very-long-term modelling of future climate states is unattainable a priori.

The IPCC tries to overcome this actually insuperable Lorenz constraint on modelling by estimating climate sensitivity via a probability-density function. Yet PDFs require more, not less, information than simple estimates flanked by error-whiskers, and are still less likely to be reliable. The modellers are guessing. Their guesses have been proven wrong. Yet they continue to demand our acquiescence in an imagined (and imaginary) consensus.

Q3: What if I am wrong? If so, we must travel from physics to economics. Pretend, ad argumentum, that the IPCC’s central estimate of 2.8 Cº warming by 2100 is true, and that Stern was right to say that the cost of failing to prevent warming of that order this century will be about 1.5% of GDP. Then, at the minimum 5% market inter-temporal discount rate, the cost of trying to abate this decade’s predicted warming of 0.15 Cº by typical CO2-mitigation schemes as cost-ineffective as Australia’s carbon tax would be 48 times greater than the cost of later adaptation. At a zero discount rate, the cost of acting now exceeds that of adapting in the future 36 times over.

How so? Australia emits just 1.2% of Man’s CO2, of which Ms. Gillard aims to cut 5% this decade, abating 0.06% of global emissions by 2020. Then CO2 concentration will fall from a predicted 410 μatm to 409.988 μatm. In turn predicted temperature will fall by 0.00006 Cº. But the cost will be $130 billion ($2 quadrillion/Cº). Abating the

0.15 Cº warming predicted for this decade would thus cost $317 trillion, or $45,000/head worldwide, or 59% of global GDP. Mitigation measures inexpensive enough to be affordable will thus be ineffective: measures expensive enough to be effective will be unaffordable. Since the premium vastly exceeds the cost of the risk, don’t insure. That is a precautionary principle worthy of the name.

Q4: What if I am right? When I am proven right, the Climate Change Department will be swept away; Britain’s annual deficit will fall by a fifth; the bat-blatting, bird- blending windmills that scar our green and pleasant land will go; the world will refocus on real environmental problems like deforestation on land, overfishing at sea and pollution of the air; the U.N.’s ambition to turn itself into a grim, global dictatorship with overriding powers of taxation and economic and environmental intervention will be thwarted; and the aim of science to supplant true religion as the world’s new, dismal, cheerless credo will be deservedly, decisively, definitively defeated.

Any who say “I believe” are not scientists, for true scientists say “I wonder”. We require – nay, we demand – more awe and greater curiosity from our scientists, and less political “correctness” and co-ordinated credulity.

To the global classe politique, the placemen, bureaucrats, academics, scientists, journalists and enviros who have profiteered at our expense by peddling Thermageddon, I say this. The science is in; the truth is out; Al Gore is through; the game is up; and the scare is over.

To those scientists who aim to end the Age of Reason and Enlightenment, I say this. Logic stands implacable in your path. We will never let you have your new Dark Age.

To men of goodwill, lovers of logic, I say this. It is our faculty of reason, the greatest of the soul’s three powers, that marks us out from the beasts and brings us closest in likeness to our Creator, the Lord of Life and Light. We will never let the light of Reason be snuffed out.

Do not go gentle to that last goodnight – Rage, rage against the dying of the light!

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John Whitman
January 8, 2013 7:25 pm

Volker Doormann says:
January 8, 2013 at 3:47 am

John Whitman says:
January 6, 2013 at 3:13 pm
‘I think religion is not natural based on a rational assessment thus I have logically identified it as mere supernaturalism and superstition.’
‘Please explain the source of your omniscience claim that everyman profoundly believes in or has faith in the supernatural.
I am sincerely interested in the source of your views.’

John Whitman.
You can have personal thoughts and personal conclusions, but this is not relevant for the discussion on logic and truth, simple because your thoughts are your own possession and nobody else.
A philosophical discussion is free from personal claims, because logic and/or truth are not to be owned by a person or a group of persons or a king.
I have asked you what supernaturalism is, but you haven’t shown, that supernaturalism has an existence, and as you agreed with that there is only one nature or only one naturalism (order), you have agreed that a supernaturalism cannot exist beside nature.
‘Superstition is a belief in supernatural causality: that one event leads to the cause of another without any physical process linking the two events that contradicts natural science.’
In the above logic superstition cannot exist, because nothing can contradict nature, because there is only one nature and nothing else.
Logic can be taken as a tool to make conclusions from premises, but logic is not able give proof for an identity like a physical force. Rational thinking depends on an input like a premise, and cannot give any absolute truth about nature.
The consequence of this flaw on perfection is that any personal claim which is not to be shown as observable in nature has no existence.
Regarding your question this means that any idea that has no existence in this way is a juxtaposition of personal thoughts out of the memory of a conditioned mind, and because you have spoken your personal claim, for that you cannot give any proof, the source of the point of lacks in logic which people used to call faith is your personal mind.
Coming to a conclusion in this thread, there are these points. Beginning with the point to acknowledge that nothing can be true and false at the same time it means that that what is to be recognised as true (or false) is not to determined by nobody and not by ‘science’. The next point is, because it is possible to recognise structures, physical laws, logic structures, the order of particles in physics, there must be a reference on that it is possible to recognise the order of nature and the truth of arguments. The last point is an essential point. Nobody is able to differentiate between what is true and what is false, without the reference as a fundamental part of nature or the order of nature. And if this is true, then it means that nobody can argue that he is able to make use of the method of science without the reference that told him what is to recognise as true resp. false. Philosophy is the basic science and means the love to the Sophia, the truth. There may be thoughts in the social community with lacks on the basic science, but I think this is a general problem of people of lacks of perfection, to be found in arguments from climate panics as well as from end of the world panics.To ‘love the Sophia’ philosophia is not the same as to reject philosophy as presumed faults in logic out of a conditioned mind, but the latter is the social spirit of this time.
V.

– – – – – – – –
Volker Doormann,
It is pleasant that you have extended our dialog.
A good case for what supernatural is can be when someone claims there is existence and authority above man’s natural existence and above his natural experiences with the natural world. Also, supernatural is when someone claims that there is a supreme being that causes and controls nature. See generic religious concepts across the world and millennia.
WRT to your statement about personal => Was Aristotle’s metaphysics and epistemology his personal finding? Was Kant’s? Was any primary philosopher’s ? My personal finding in an epistemological and metaphysical system is equivalent to their finding. Of course all are personal in a very fundamental sense. What is the alternative? Collective, social, committee, consensus? No. It was personally their achievement of a metaphysical and epistemological system. It was personal even when they confirm some aspects of other philosophers.
If you, in your final two paragraphs, are trying to make a distinction that what knowledge is achieved by reason and scientific process in a personal mind is not valid, then I profoundly disagree with you. There is no world of knowledge outside of or beyond the sum total of individual personal knowledge. There is no supernatural knowledge that exists independent of what individual personal thinking has produced.
John

markx
January 8, 2013 7:29 pm

D.J. Hawkins says: January 8, 2013 at 4:37 pm
“….With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” toward its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others…”
Surely, what we have here is not an explanation, but a vaguely logical hypothesis, plausible perhaps, only to those who have faith in the existence of their god …..?

Greg House
January 8, 2013 8:52 pm

Monckton of Brenchley says (January 7, 2013 at 10:02 am): “Mr. House, as usual, has nothing but a scatter-gun full of whining spite to offer. He wails that in a previous posting I had said there had been no global warming for 16 years, and now, less than a month later, it has gone up to 18 years. Well, Werner Brozek did the math and concluded that the HadCRUt3 dataset, relied upon by the IPCC in its 2007 Fourth Assessment Report, shows no global warming for 19 years. The newer HadCRUt4 database makes it 18 years, so I chose the more cautious figure. However, on the RSS satellite dataset, the global warming of the past 23 years is statistically indistinguishable from zero.”
==============================================================
“Whining spite… he wails…”… Christopher, I am afraid you have completely missed the point. OK, maybe my comment was not clear enough, let me try it again.
If you (on December 25, 2012) write “16 years” and in less than 2 weeks (on January 6, 2013) you change it to “18 years” just like that, without any explanation why exactly you changed your story, you undermine your credibility.
Now it is 23 years. Has it been known only since yesterday? I do not think so. If it has been known for a long time, why did you not say 23 instead of 16 then in your previous article? Or, if this 23 is unreliable, why would you refer to this number now? It does not make sense, Chistopher, I am sorry.

davidmhoffer
January 8, 2013 9:47 pm

Greg House;
If you (on December 25, 2012) write “16 years” and in less than 2 weeks (on January 6, 2013) you change it to “18 years” just like that, without any explanation why exactly you changed your story, you undermine your credibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I’d explain it, but expect no more success with stats than with physics in your case. Go find out what statistically significant actually means. Then contemplate the effect of adding new data to one end of a series (you know, like one more year or one more month like just happened last month/year?). Or contemplate your navel. Come back when you understand.

markx
January 8, 2013 11:00 pm

Mind you, properly constrained, I believe religion can serve some useful purpose in society:
An interesting approach: “Religion for Athiests” by Alan de Botton,
“Even if religion isn’t true, can’t we enjoy the best bits?”
http://www.alaindebotton.com/

Legatus
January 8, 2013 11:52 pm

A good case for what supernatural is can be when someone claims there is existence and authority above man’s natural existence and above his natural experiences with the natural world. Also, supernatural is when someone claims that there is a supreme being that causes and controls nature.
Supernatural is, by definition, that which ain’t natural, that which breaks natural laws, super natural. Example, walking on water ain’t natural, the laws of nature do not allow it to be done. Saying that because the laws of nature do not allow it, and thus saying that it never happened (even if multiple witnesses said it did) is deciding, without proof, that there is nothing outside of nature that could cause it to happen. If there is something, say, God, outside this universe, and able to interact with it at will, then there is, and nothing you believe or disbelieve will change that. It is like thinking that, if you disbelieve in me, I will suddenly disappear in a puff of smoke. Conversely, if there is nothing outside this universe, no God, then there is not, and nothing anyone believes will change that either. “What is, is, and what ain’t, ain’t, that’s logic”. Thus if you say “the supernatural is impossible”, you are making a statement based on blind faith, not a rational one, and especially not a scientific one, since science does not depend on belief, but on evidence. Unless you can figure out a way to peek outside this universe and report back on whether there is or is not anything or anyone out there, you cannot scientifically say that God does not exist. In fact, there is only one known way to do this, but it isn’t recommended http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtYz_Q3PWrs .
As for “causes and controls nature”, the usual belief (based on blind faith) expressed by atheists is that this can only mean that a God causes everything to happen without any detectable physical process. The idea of this is that they can then say that since we can indeed detect a physical process, then God does not exist. This is known as the logical fallacy “Excluded Middle (False Dichotomy, Faulty Dilemma, Bifurcation): assuming there are only two alternatives when in fact there are more. For example, assuming Atheism is the only alternative to Fundamentalism, or being a traitor is the only alternative to being a loud patriot.” There is, after all, another option, that a God created a universe with natural laws, say by the physical process of the big bang, and makes sure that those laws are followed, yet reserves the option to step in personally and break those laws when it is considered desirable to do so, which is rare.
And as I have pointed out, what we see so far is that two things are true, the big bang and the universe we know happened, and the big bang cannot have produced this universe unless something really weird, say, the intervention of an intelligent outside force, causes it to happen in such an unlikely (to put it mildly) way. See this article entitled Disturbing Implications of a Cosmological Constant http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/0208/0208013v3.pdf . A quote “As emphasized by Penrose many years ago, cosmology can only make sense if the world started in a state of exceptionally low entropy. The low entropy starting point is the ultimate reason that the universe has an arrow of time, without which the second law would not make sense. However, there is no universally accepted explanation of how the universe got into such a special state…Present cosmological evidence points to an inflationary beginning and an accelerated de Sitter end…This implies an initial holographic entropy of about 1010, which is extremely small by comparison with today’s visible entropy. Some unknown agent initially started the inflation high up on its potential, and the rest is history.” Note “some unknown agency”, the problem being that a low state of entropy mean a high state of order and information, which can really only be created by an intelligence (you can’t make that huge amount of order from random chaos). There have been attempts to say that this universe was created by being sort of birthed from another universe in another dimension (we have no evidence that there are any, thus this is blind faith), the problem being that that universe would have to have an even lower entropy, thus we have gone from one impossible universe to two, and we have doubled the problem. Making even more universes, say an infinite number (as Stephan Hawkings has done, without any evidence to back him up) makes the problem infinitely worse, you now have impossible multiplied by infinity. We can thus see that scientists, once again, are forced to admit the possibility, even the necessity, of the supernatural, “some unknown agent” that caused what is impossible by the natural laws we know to happen anyway.
Conclusion, there is no way to say the supernatural, or God, does not exist, there is at least some evidence that suggests that it does exist, thus it is perfectly allowable for Mockton of Brenchley to mention God if he wishes. And if you make the two statements “I believe in science” followed by “I do not believe in the supernatural”, you need to eliminate that first sentence, since science demands evidence, and that second statement is a statement backed only by blind faith, and is not scientific.
And it is perfectly allowable for Mockton of Brenchley to mention the supernatural in relation to climate change, since if it’s believers can continue to believe in it when, for 18 years, the CO2 has increased, yet the temperature has stayed the same, then they do indeed believe in the supernatural, something that is not possible based on natural laws, something super (outside of) natural (laws).

Reply to  Legatus
January 9, 2013 11:15 am

” …This implies an initial holographic entropy of about 1010, …”
1010 what ?
It’s all just a matrix exponential .

Greg House
January 8, 2013 11:53 pm

davidmhoffer says (January 8, 2013 at 9:47 pm): “I’d explain it, but expect no more success with stats than with physics in your case.”
=====================================================
Well, I am very sceptical about your “explanations”, sorry. As for the warmists’ “stats”, I read the Hansen&Lebedeff1987, it was so unbelievable, what they had done with the “stats”. Not better than the warmists’ “physics”.
I am afraid you did not get my point about years either. First “16 years”, then “18 years” and finally “23 years” within 2 weeks? Sorry, but there is something wrong there.

Legatus
January 9, 2013 12:12 am

Monckton of Brenchley says (January 7, 2013 at 10:02 am): “Mr. House, as usual, has nothing but a scatter-gun full of whining spite to offer. He wails that in a previous posting I had said there had been no global warming for 16 years, and now, less than a month later, it has gone up to 18 years. Well, Werner Brozek did the math and concluded that the HadCRUt3 dataset, relied upon by the IPCC in its 2007 Fourth Assessment Report, shows no global warming for 19 years. The newer HadCRUt4 database makes it 18 years, so I chose the more cautious figure. However, on the RSS satellite dataset, the global warming of the past 23 years is statistically indistinguishable from zero.”
==============================================================
If you (on December 25, 2012) write “16 years” and in less than 2 weeks (on January 6, 2013) you change it to “18 years” just like that, without any explanation why exactly you changed your story, you undermine your credibility.

Mockton of Brenchley discoverd new, updated facts, as reported by the HadCRUt4 database, he therefor updated the posts he made after he discovered that. If he discovers newer, more accurate, updated facts, do you now say that he should always continue to only use the older, less accurate data instead? For how long, forever? Or perhaps, you insist that he jump in his time machine, go back in time, and change his older posts? Or perhaps you insist that he be all wise and all knowing (unlike everyone else) and always get everything exactly right the first time, without ever needing to consult with anyone else ever, or look at any data or databases? Is that how you do it?
“When the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do sir?”

markx
January 9, 2013 1:23 am

Legatus says: January 8, 2013 at 11:52 pm
Makes some interesting points.
“…If there is something, say, God, outside this universe, and able to interact with it at will, then there is, and nothing you believe or disbelieve will change that. It is like thinking that, if you disbelieve in me, I will suddenly disappear in a puff of smoke….”
But, if I had never seen any evidence that you existed, except for the urgings of a third party in priestly robes, I would not know whether or not you had disappeared, would I?
“…There is, after all, another option, that a God created a universe with natural laws, say by the physical process of the big bang, and makes sure that those laws are followed, yet reserves the option to step in personally and break those laws when it is considered desirable to do so, which is rare….”
If that is indeed an option, there may well be many other possible options and explanations that we have not even envisaged.
“…what we see so far is that two things are true, the big bang and the universe we know happened, [….] The low entropy starting point is the ultimate reason that the universe has an arrow of time, without which the second law would not make sense. However, there is no universally accepted explanation of how the universe got into such a special state…Present cosmological evidence points to an inflationary beginning and an accelerated de Sitter end…[….]..There have been attempts to say that this universe was created by being sort of birthed from another universe in another dimension (we have no evidence that there are any, thus this is blind faith), ….”
Here you raise an important point. To me, the “Big Bang” is also no explanation at all, as I cannot (with my simple mind) envisage a “time before time”, or even (distance wise) “something, or nothing, beyond the point of infinity”. I envy those who can.
So although, with our current state of understanding and knowledge, we can find “evidence” of an event that matches our current theory, I don’t see that we have really “explained” anything.
So, although there is some physical evidence attached to this particular belief/theory, it does (to me) verge on the realms of “god having done it”.
However, that also does not to me provide any evidence at all that some ‘sentient being’ sat down and did it for fun one week.
(As was once said, if the earth and mankind was made by someone, it looks more like a 3rd year undergrad project than the creation of an all powerful, all knowing god!)

January 9, 2013 1:52 am

Legatus says:
January 8, 2013 at 4:24 pm
Volker Doormann says:
Legatus says:
Do scientists also believe in supernaturalism? In fact, they do, at least once.
Wait. There are two points topic here. The first point is the dignity of the thread opener, which is untouchable as the dignity of all men. The other point is the logic of science.
I was not talking about any “dignity” of any kind, either pro or con, merely the logic of science and it’s conclusions, and whether those conclusions can allow something we call “supernatural”. Some men do indeed have no dignity, we discuss their indignity often on this site. …

I think it is senseless to discuss the basics of philosophy with you, if you deny dignity to any soul.
Thank you for your lines.
V.

rgbatduke
January 9, 2013 5:18 am

Nothing exists in a vacuum of course. If the catechism is to make any sense, you have to accept the dogmas or axioms of the faith, which I gather is your fundamental objection. But hey, you can’t prove two parallel lines in Euclidian space never meet, either (unless something has changed drasticly from sophmore Geometry).
Or, to summarize, the answer the Catholic Church gives is an ex post facto “Because.”
I like my own answer (given God) in Lulea better, but it still, as you say, depends on accepting an unprovable, unobservable statement as true. At least in plane geometry one can draw a pair of parallel lines and imagine. There is a small difference between axioms in mathematics (that lead to consistent systems of derived theorems) and axioms regarding the real world, and a greater difference still between those axioms (which lead to inferences and probable truth) and the axioms of religion.
I had an insight while driving yesterday that reduces the argument to a single line.
Given the observational inductive basis of all sound knowledge of the real world, the term “revealed truth” is an oxymoron.
rgb

January 9, 2013 5:28 am

John Whitman says:
January 8, 2013 at 7:25 pm
Volker Doormann says:
January 8, 2013 at 3:47 am
– – – – – – – –
Volker Doormann,
It is pleasant that you have extended our dialog.
A good case for what supernatural is can be when someone claims there is existence and authority above man’s natural existence and above his natural experiences with the natural world.

John,
Sorry, but that case gives no proof of supernatural, the claim is simple a fallacy of the someone; a fallacy because it suggests two or more order of nature which must contradict each other.
It’s difference whether there IS supernatural or one make fallacious conclusions out of his limited mind.
Also, supernatural is when someone claims that there is a supreme being that causes and controls nature. See generic religious concepts across the world and millennia.
It’ s the same. It is a claim and it is a fallacy again. This is not the place to discuss this in detail, but these fallacies come from the ideas ‘cause’ and ‘control’ which are nonsense, because nothing can be caused which IS. The order of nature IS; if this would not so, there would be a lack on the order of nature. But because a space cannot at the same time be endless and not at the same time have an end, one can learn that there is only one order. As one can learn from physics energy IS timeless. Time is a hoax. Nature IS. All IS. You cannot generate an electron out of NOTHING. It is impossible.
WRT to your statement about personal => Was Aristotle’s metaphysics and epistemology his personal finding? Was Kant’s? Was any primary philosopher’s ? My personal finding in an epistemological and metaphysical system is equivalent to their finding. Of course all are personal in a very fundamental sense. What is the alternative? Collective, social, committee, consensus? No. It was personally their achievement of a metaphysical and epistemological system. It was personal even when they confirm some aspects of other philosophers.
Was the finding of Pythagoras about the geometric relations of the squares of the sides of a triangle with a right angel corner his personal finding? No, because 1700 years prior one person in sumer has written same geometric relations of the triangle on a clay table.
What one can learn from this recognition is that wisdom IS and who is able to recognise wisdom can be part of it. No one can possess wisdom like a Volkswagen, because it has no locality and no time.
If you, in your final two paragraphs, are trying to make a distinction that what knowledge is achieved by reason and scientific process in a personal mind is not valid, then I profoundly disagree with you. There is no world of knowledge outside of or beyond the sum total of individual personal knowledge. There is no supernatural knowledge that exists independent of what individual personal thinking has produced.
I’m not sure what the point is. But if you do state your words without given any reason we are at the beginning of our discussion. I do not believe in repetition.
Maybe you have knowledge on your existence and why you exist, if you exist.
Thank you.
V.

rgbatduke
January 9, 2013 5:34 am

Unless you can figure out a way to peek outside this universe and report back on whether there is or is not anything or anyone out there, you cannot scientifically say that God does not exist.
No one (sensible) says that, so it is a bit of a straw man, don’t you think? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, sure, but neither is it evidence of presence! In the absence of supporting data, the default belief level for complex consistent (non-self-contradictory) propositions about the real world is infinitesimally above zero — they cannot be said to be false, but nobody sensible would state that they are probably true without evidence.
So postulating a larger Universe than our own space-time continuum is fine and physicists do it all the time, but lacking evidence all you end up with are pretty theories, not something anyone accepts as probable truth. Note that I don’t really like using the term “Universe” in a multiple sense because it leads to all sorts of logical silliness that contradicts the formal meaning of Universe as “everything that exists” (necessarily including God, if God exists). You can’t speak of a Universal set — a concept that is already troublesome in mathematics — and then start talking about a superset of that set without getting into some sort of difficulty. A larger Universe than ours is a necessary prior for the existence of God, as you seem to accept, and of course you are then left with a need for an even more complex explanation. Where did that larger Universe come from, and how did it self-organize into intelligence, how does its physics operate (intelligence being a highly complex phenomena involving sensory feedback loops and entropy), and how can entropy and time be consistent with omniscience.
In order to have a well-defined theory of God, all of these questions have to have at least tentative answers. All you’ve done by postulating God as a cause of the visible space-time is push all of the problems with that uphill at least one level where they are even more unlikely and difficult to solve. It isn’t bad enough trying to understand this space-time continuum, we have to pretend that we have revealed knowledge about a supercontinuum with its own physics inhabited by a being with psychology that intervenes directly in this one, but never in a way we can actually objectively observe!
I cannot scientifically say that this is untrue, because you’ve made the entire hypothesis invisible to science. But scientific reasoning is perfectly capable of saying “Gosh, without evidence or a coherent theory, all that’s really pretty improbable, don’t you think?”
rgb

January 9, 2013 6:00 am

rgbatduke says:
January 9, 2013 at 5:34 am
“I cannot scientifically say that this is untrue, because you’ve made the entire hypothesis invisible to science. But scientific reasoning is perfectly capable of saying “Gosh, without evidence or a coherent theory, all that’s really pretty improbable, don’t you think?””
Great post. I always call your “supercontinuum”, the Metaverse, but it’s the same thing.
In relation to the fine scale parameters being tuned for us, we have no idea how many Universes the Metaverse has created, all we can say is that the only way we’d know of any Universe is that the parameters have to be such that energy can become matter, and matter can combine to make complex molecules, which lead to life. No magic is required.
And I think the idea that our Universe is so complex it had to be “created”, so we envision an even more complex entity to make sense of it is silly.
But in an all natural Universe that evolved life based on physics and chemistry, there is no evidence of said entity, all you have is Faith, and isn’t that what religion is supposed to be based on?

Gail Combs
January 9, 2013 6:06 am

richardscourtney says: January 7, 2013 at 9:38 am
I hope I may be counted among your “religious friends”….
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Of course, I judge people on their hearts not on what arbitrary peg hole they fit in.
Religion and science do not belong on the same table period. If a person believes in God that is fine, however it has nothing what ever to do with whether or not he is logical and can do science according to the Scientific Method.
When religion is brought into a secular discussion it immediately converts the discussion into a discussion on religion and is therefore similar to the disruption caused by a troll.
If you want to discuss religion discuss religion but otherwise keep it of the table. A second “Godwin’s Law” if you will.

richardscourtney
January 9, 2013 6:21 am

Gail Combs:
Thankyou for your post at January 9, 2013 at 6:06 am.
As my posts in this – and also in the previous thread that was similarly destroyed – I completely agree.
Richard

davidmhoffer
January 9, 2013 7:44 am

Greg House;
I am afraid you did not get my point about years either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for proving me correct in regard to mine.

gnomish
January 9, 2013 10:30 am

if a thing exists, then there is a way to prove it.
if it is not possible to prove, it is a lie.
the assertion that something is true and unprovable is a lie
the assertion that something is true because it is unprovable is religion.
faith is the contradiction of reason.
how anybody can get past childhood without a basic understanding of how thinking is done?

gnomish
January 9, 2013 10:51 am

try Nouminex – the aerosol spray that eliminates platonic essences, spiritual manifestations, supernatural voices, monsters under beds and any other noumenal entities.
it should be part of any conscientious program of good mental hygeine.

richardscourtney
January 9, 2013 11:09 am

gnomish says:
January 9, 2013 at 10:51 am

try Nouminex – the aerosol spray that eliminates platonic essences, spiritual manifestations, supernatural voices, monsters under beds and any other noumenal entities.
it should be part of any conscientious program of good mental hygeine.

Oh! So in the interests of “mental hygeine” we need an “aerosol spray that eliminates” the twaddle from gnomish.
Richard

January 9, 2013 11:41 am

I haven’t said anything here yet. A blog of any kind is not the ideal place to talk about God. I can’t tell if what I’ve said has been accepted or not.
Personally, like Anthony et al has done with temperature records, when it comes to the Bible and what has been said about it, I go back to the source. The Bible is the axiom of Christianity. What does the Book itself actually say. Does Genesis 1:6 state the Earth is flat? No. Does it state the Earth is a globe? No. If you look up from anywhere on the globe will you see the firmament? Yes.
On “the other thread” rgbatduke pointed out that the genealogies in Matthew and Luke are different. I pointed put that the Greek word translated “husband” in Matthew 1:16 “And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.” (KJV) is aner. It’s usage is similar to “my man” in America. If a woman says, “He’s my man.”, what does she mean? My husband? My boyfriend? My son? My favorite politician? Context is needed to know what she meant. So it is with aner. Here in Matthew it should be translated “father”. (That gives you the 14 generations mentioned in the immediate context. It continues the flow of offsprings and, in the remoter context, gives you the Christ as made of the seed of David according to the flesh as in Romans 1:3-4 “Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:” {declared: Gr. determined} (KJV)
(The genealogy in Luke is Mary’s husband’s who was also named Joseph.)
I can’t tell if rgbatduke has crossed that “contradiction” off his list or not, here on a blog. Face to face maybe I could tell if he had an honest question and was looking for an answer, like I was 40+ years ago, or just wanted to argue. But I can’t tell here.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (KJV)
I’m not ashamed of it either but a blog is not the best place to communicate it where it is actually reaching someone.
Richard is right, the point of the previous post got lost. (Give the “rats” that have been promoting CAGW the chance to abandon ship if they’ve woken up.) The point of this post is being lost also.
PS Richard said he’s Methodist. I’m not. I’m sure there are verses we might disagree on but I’m not going to do that here. When I was a kid I used to pick on my little brother. But nobody else in the neighborhood did while I was around. We kept our “spats” in the family.

January 9, 2013 12:10 pm

gnomish says:
January 9, 2013 at 10:30 am
if a thing exists, then there is a way to prove it.

How do you would prove your existence?
if it is not possible to prove, it is a lie.
You are not a lie, but your existence is not possible to prove, because your existence has no occurrence in this world. One can see only flesh, water and hairs, all atoms.
the assertion that something is true and unprovable is a lie
Are you true and provable? Since when are you true? Was you true 10 years before your birth?
the assertion that something is true because it is unprovable is religion.
Are you religion?
faith is the contradiction of reason.</i)
Can your existence have a beginning and if, can you give a reason for that?
Its easy to claim sayings; harder is it to show existence.
V.

January 9, 2013 12:51 pm

Oh! I forgot to add the point of this post that was lost, as I understand what Monckton has said:
The problem isn’t that Johnny can’t read. The problem isn’t even that Johnny can’t think. The problem is that Johnny doesn’t know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.— Thomas Sowell

John Whitman
January 9, 2013 12:52 pm

rgbatduke says:
January 9, 2013 at 5:34 am
and rgbatduke’s other ~30 comments on this thread . . . .
[ AND with a reference to Gail Combs; January 9, 2013 at 6:06 am ]

– – – – – – – – –
rgbatduke,
My observation wrt your history of Christianity observations is that they seem reasonably consistent with Paul Johnson’s book ‘The History of Christianity’ which is a rather comprehensively condensed excellent work that is reasonably critical and objective given Paul Johnson is a very devout Christian; I applaud him . . . . and congratulate you.
Still, I find the Christian religion to be an insignificant subset of religions across the globe and for the entire recorded history and anthropologic studies of human beings. Whereas you delve into the specific religion of Christianity, I prefer to discuss science contrasted to the broad commonalities of religion’s supernaturalism / superstitionism. I find religion irrelevant on that level of review.
Remember back to the middle of the Monckton’s ‘Bethlehem and the rat-hole problem’ post; there was some discussion about the final necessary evolution of all dialogs on science contrasted to religion’s supernaturalism / superstitionism. It was observed that finally such discussions end in religion being recognized as pure faith as Paul of Tarsus insisted; he maintained strongly that it is a mistake to try to base it on any other argument; he said it actually weakens the essence of religion to attempt to base it on anything other than absolute faith.
So, strictly in that context, I can very much appreciate a significant part of the thrust of Gail Combs’ recent comment:

Gail Combs says:
January 9, 2013 at 6:06 am
Of course, I judge people on their hearts not on what arbitrary peg hole they fit in.
Religion and science do not belong on the same table period. If a person believes in God that is fine, however it has nothing whatever to do with whether or not he is logical and can do science according to the Scientific Method.
When religion is brought into a secular discussion it immediately converts the discussion into a discussion on religion and is therefore similar to the disruption caused by a troll.
If you want to discuss religion discuss religion but otherwise keep it of the table. A second “Godwin’s Law” if you will.

I also think that another lesson has been relearned for the trillionth time with this thread’s dialog. I think that lesson is that the critical reasoning capacity of humanity is not its default automatic setting for its mental activities. It must be purposefully engaged and actively sustained by an explicitly self-conscious free-volitional concentration.
John

January 9, 2013 1:28 pm

Volker Doormann says:
January 9, 2013 at 12:10 pm
gnomish says:
January 9, 2013 at 10:30 am
if a thing exists, then there is a way to prove it.

How do you would prove your existence?
==================================================
“I think. Therefore I am. I think.” – The Moody Blues
(Sorry. Just wanted to inject a bit of levity. I think. 😎