How the profiteers who market Thermageddon offend against the principles of formal logic
Guest post by Monckton of Brenchley
LOGIC is the heartbeat of all true learning – the soul of the Classics, the Sciences and Religion. Once everyone studied the Classics, to know that in logic there is a difference between true and false; the Sciences, to discern where it lies; and Religion, to appreciate why it matters. Today, few study all three empires of the mind. Fewer study the ordered beauty of the logic at their heart.
Is Private Fraser’s proposition that “We’re a’ doomed!” logical? I say No. G.K. Chesterton once wrote: “When men have ceased to believe in Christianity, it is not that they will believe in nothing. They will believe in anything.” The belief that Thermageddon will arise from our altering 1/3000th of the atmosphere in a century is in-your-face illogical, rooted in a dozen fallacies marked out by Aristotle as the commonest in human discourse.
“Consensus” is the New Religion’s central fallacy. Arguing blindly from consensus is the head-count fallacy, the argumentum ad populum. Al-Haytham, founder of the scientific method, wrote: “The seeker after truth does not put his faith in any mere consensus. Instead, he checks.”
Two surveys have purported to show 97% of climate scientists supporting the supposed “consensus”. In both, 97% agreed little more than that the world has warmed since 1950. So what? One involved just 79 scientists, hardly a scientific sample size. Neither was selected to eliminate bias. Neither asked whether manmade global warming was at all likely to prove catastrophic – a question expecting the answer “No.”
Claiming that the “consensus” is one of revered experts is the argumentum ad verecundiam, the fallacy of appeal to authority. T.H. Huxley said in 1860, “The improver of natural knowledge absolutely refuses to acknowledge authority, as such. For him, scepticism is the highest of duties: blind faith the one unpardonable sin.”
Believers talk of a “consensus of evidence”. Yet evidence cannot hold opinions. Besides, there has been no global warming for 18 years; sea level has risen for eight years at just 1.3 in/century; notwithstanding Sandy, hurricane activity is at its least in the 33-year satellite record; ocean heat content is rising four and a half times more slowly than predicted; global sea-ice extent has changed little; Himalayan glaciers have not lost ice; and the U.N.’s 2005 prediction of 50 million “climate refugees” by 2010 was absurd. The evidence does not support catastrophism.
Believers say: “Only if we include a strong warming effect from CO2 can we explain the past 60 years’ warming. We know of no other reason.” This is the argumentum ad ignorantiam, the fundamental fallacy of argument from ignorance. Besides, natural variability is reason enough.
They say: “Global warming is accelerating, so we are to blame.” Even if warming were accelerating, this non sequitur is an instance of the argumentum ad causam falsam, the fallacy of arguing from a false cause. They go on to say: “CO2 concentration has risen; warming has occurred; the former caused the latter.” This is the post hoc ergo propter hoc sub-species of the same fallacy.
They say: “What about the cuddly polar bears?” This is the argumentum ad misericordiam, the fallacy of needless pity. There are five times as many polar bears as there were in the 1940s – hardly, as you may think, the profile of a species at imminent threat of extinction. No need to pity the bears, and they are not cuddly.
They say: “We tell the models there will be strong CO2- driven warming. And, yes, the models predict it.” This is the fallacy of arguing in circles, the argumentum ad petitionem principii, where the premise is the conclusion.
They say: “Global warming caused extra-tropical storm Sandy.” This inappropriate argument from the general to the particular is the argumentum a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid, the fallacy of accident. Individual extreme events cannot be ascribed to global warming.
They say: “Melting Arctic sea ice is a symptom of global warming.” This unsound argument from the particular to the general is the argumentum a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter, the fallacy of converse accident. Arctic sea ice is melting, but the Antarctic has cooled for 30 years and the sea ice there is growing, so the decline in Arctic sea ice does not indicate a global problem.
They say: “Monckton says he’s a member of the House of Lords, but the Clerk says he isn’t, so he’s not credible.” This is the argumentum ad hominem, a shoddy sub- species of ignoratio elenchi, the fundamental red-herring fallacy of ignorance of how a true argument is conducted.
They say: “We don’t care what the truth is. We want more power, tax and regulation. Global warming is our pretext. If you disagree, we will haul you before the International Climate Court.” This is the nastiest of all logical fallacies: the argumentum ad baculum, the argument of force.
These numerous in-your-face illogicalities provoke four questions: Has the Earth warmed as predicted? If not, why not? What if I am wrong? And what if I am right?
Q1. Has the Earth warmed as predicted? In 1990 the IPCC predicted that the world would now be warming at 0.3 Cº/decade, and that by now more than 0.6 Cº warming would have occurred. The outturn was less than half that: just 0.14 Cº/decade and 0.3 Cº in all.
In 2008 leading modellers wrote:
“The simulations rule out (at the 95% level) zero trends for intervals of 15 years or more, suggesting that an absence of warming of this duration is needed to create a discrepancy with the observed warming rate.”
Yet the linear trend on the Hadley/CRU monthly global temperature anomalies for the 18 years 1995-2012 shows no statistically-significant warming, even though the partial pressure of CO2 rose by about a tenth in that time.
The modellers’ own explicit criterion proves their scary predictions exaggerated. Their vaunted “consensus” was wrong. Global warming that was predicted for tomorrow but has not occurred for 18 years until today cannot have caused Sandy or Bopha yesterday, now, can it?
Q2: Why was the “consensus” wrong? Why do the models exaggerate? The climate-sensitivity equation says warming is the product of a forcing and a sensitivity parameter. Three problems: the modellers’ definition of forcing is illogical; their assumptions about the sensitivity parameter are not falsifiable; and their claims that their long-term predictions of doom are reliable are not only empirically disproven but theoretically insupportable.
Modellers define forcing as the net down-minus-up flux of radiation at the tropopause, with surface temperature fixed. Yet forcings change surface temperature. So the definition offends against the fundamental postulate of logic that a proposition and its converse cannot coexist. No surprise, then, that since 1995 the IPCC has had to cut its estimate of the CO2 forcing by 15%. The “consensus” disagrees with itself. Note in passing that the CO2 forcing function is logarithmic: each further molecule causes less warming than those before it. Diminishing returns apply.
Direct warming is little more than 1 Cº per CO2 doubling, well within natural variability. It is not a crisis. So the modellers introduce amplifying or “positive” temperature feedbacks, which, they hope, triple the direct warming from CO2. Yet this dubious hypothesis is not Popper- falsifiable, so it is not logic and not science. Not one of the imagined feedbacks is either empirically measurable or theoretically determinable by any reliable method. As an expert reviewer for the IPCC’s Fifth Assessment Report, I have justifiably excoriated its net-positive feedbacks as guesswork – uneducated guesswork at that.
For there is a very powerful theoretical reason why the modellers’ guess that feedbacks triple direct warming is erroneous. The closed-loop feedback gain implicit in the IPCC’s climate-sensitivity interval 3.3[2.0, 4.5] Cº per CO2 doubling falls on the interval 0.62[0.42, 0.74]. However, process engineers building electronic circuits, who invented feedback mathematics, tell us any loop gain much above zero is far too near the singularity – at a loop gain of 1 – in the feedback-amplification function.
At high gain, the geological record would show violent oscillations between extremes of warming and cooling. Yet for 64 million years the Earth’s surface temperature has fluctuated by only 3%, or 8 Cº, either side of the long- run mean. These fluctuations can give us an ice-planet at one moment and a hothouse Earth the next, but they are altogether inconsistent with a loop gain anywhere near as close to the singularity as modellers’ estimates imply.
Surface temperature changes little, for homoeostatic conditions prevail. The atmosphere’s lower bound, the ocean, is a vast heat-sink 1100 times denser than the air: one reason why 3000 bathythermographs deployed in 2006 have detected no significant ocean warming. The atmosphere’s upper bound is outer space, to which any excess heat radiates harmlessly away. Homoeostasis, then, is what we should expect, and it is what we get. Thus the climatic loop gain cannot much exceed zero, so the warming at CO2 doubling will be a harmless 1 Cº.
Yet the overriding difficulty in trying to model the climate is that it behaves as a chaotic object. We can never measure the values of its millions of defining parameters at any chosen moment to a sufficient precision to permit reliable projection of the bifurcations, or Sandy-like departures from an apparently steady state, that are inherent in the evolution of all objects that behave chaotically. Therefore, reliable, very-long-term modelling of future climate states is unattainable a priori.
The IPCC tries to overcome this actually insuperable Lorenz constraint on modelling by estimating climate sensitivity via a probability-density function. Yet PDFs require more, not less, information than simple estimates flanked by error-whiskers, and are still less likely to be reliable. The modellers are guessing. Their guesses have been proven wrong. Yet they continue to demand our acquiescence in an imagined (and imaginary) consensus.
Q3: What if I am wrong? If so, we must travel from physics to economics. Pretend, ad argumentum, that the IPCC’s central estimate of 2.8 Cº warming by 2100 is true, and that Stern was right to say that the cost of failing to prevent warming of that order this century will be about 1.5% of GDP. Then, at the minimum 5% market inter-temporal discount rate, the cost of trying to abate this decade’s predicted warming of 0.15 Cº by typical CO2-mitigation schemes as cost-ineffective as Australia’s carbon tax would be 48 times greater than the cost of later adaptation. At a zero discount rate, the cost of acting now exceeds that of adapting in the future 36 times over.
How so? Australia emits just 1.2% of Man’s CO2, of which Ms. Gillard aims to cut 5% this decade, abating 0.06% of global emissions by 2020. Then CO2 concentration will fall from a predicted 410 μatm to 409.988 μatm. In turn predicted temperature will fall by 0.00006 Cº. But the cost will be $130 billion ($2 quadrillion/Cº). Abating the
0.15 Cº warming predicted for this decade would thus cost $317 trillion, or $45,000/head worldwide, or 59% of global GDP. Mitigation measures inexpensive enough to be affordable will thus be ineffective: measures expensive enough to be effective will be unaffordable. Since the premium vastly exceeds the cost of the risk, don’t insure. That is a precautionary principle worthy of the name.
Q4: What if I am right? When I am proven right, the Climate Change Department will be swept away; Britain’s annual deficit will fall by a fifth; the bat-blatting, bird- blending windmills that scar our green and pleasant land will go; the world will refocus on real environmental problems like deforestation on land, overfishing at sea and pollution of the air; the U.N.’s ambition to turn itself into a grim, global dictatorship with overriding powers of taxation and economic and environmental intervention will be thwarted; and the aim of science to supplant true religion as the world’s new, dismal, cheerless credo will be deservedly, decisively, definitively defeated.
Any who say “I believe” are not scientists, for true scientists say “I wonder”. We require – nay, we demand – more awe and greater curiosity from our scientists, and less political “correctness” and co-ordinated credulity.
To the global classe politique, the placemen, bureaucrats, academics, scientists, journalists and enviros who have profiteered at our expense by peddling Thermageddon, I say this. The science is in; the truth is out; Al Gore is through; the game is up; and the scare is over.
To those scientists who aim to end the Age of Reason and Enlightenment, I say this. Logic stands implacable in your path. We will never let you have your new Dark Age.
To men of goodwill, lovers of logic, I say this. It is our faculty of reason, the greatest of the soul’s three powers, that marks us out from the beasts and brings us closest in likeness to our Creator, the Lord of Life and Light. We will never let the light of Reason be snuffed out.
Do not go gentle to that last goodnight – Rage, rage against the dying of the light!
I’m going to pick on two items here. First, there is a logical flaw, for which I do not know the Latin, where Lord Monckton makes a true statement (albeit simplified), that the Earth gets rid of excess heat through radiation out to space, which implies a particular final outcome, but omits another relevant fact that changes that final outcome. In essence, and in the context of the simplified statement used above, the definition of “excess heat” is altered by changing the concentration of greenhouse gases. Stated more precisely, for an equilibrium state to occur, radiative energy out to space (reflected solar plus emitted longwave) must equal radiative energy in (incident solar). Since GHGs make it more difficult for the longwave to get to outer space, higher temperatures at the surface and troposphere are required to maintain that balance given higher GHG concentrations. I’m hoping that there might be a small number of people here who can benefit from this basic information.
I’d also like to propose a scenario that shows a possible end result of radically avoiding argumentum ad ignorantiam (“I can’t think of another reason”). Let’s say you picked up a habit of crossing on foot at a busy intersection against the light. Maybe after doing this a hundred times, you were hit by a car ten times, but not seriously injured, at least not dead, or else you couldn’t do an a posteriori analysis of your habit (whew!–I got my own Latin phrase in). You might say to yourself, “Well, I haven’t been hit by a car every single time, but maybe crossing against the light isn’t a very good idea, because I think it might be a contributing factor to my getting hit by cars. I can’t think of another reason why I’ve been hit by cars ten times.” Then you’d have to decide whether you want to go with a plan that seems to have a good reason behind it, but constitutes argumentum ad ignoratiam, or tell yourself that argumentum ad ignoratiam is always a logical fallacy, and therefore stubbornly continue crossing against the light. In the real world, similar arguments have also surfaced in the case of pinning cancer causation on tobacco smoking.
for an equilibrium state to occur, radiative energy out to space (reflected solar plus emitted longwave) must equal radiative energy in (incident solar). Since GHGs make it more difficult for the longwave to get to outer space,
In fact , since absorptivity ~ emissivity at any wavelength , what matters in the radiative balance is the ratio of the absorptivities ( 1 – the reflectances ) between short and long wavelengths that determines a planet’s mean temperature due to the sun . That’s how a basic computation can show Venus would have to be 10 times as reflective as aluminum fol to explain its surface temperature in terms of solar input alone .
It’s some sort of synchronicity that while constructing my newsletter , I happened to browse a lecture by Tyndall which concludes with the question Why should good conductors be, in general, bad radiators, and bad conductors good radiators ? . CO2 is a pretty good radiator just as it is a good absorber in the 300k range .
Brent Lofgren commented on The logical case against climate panic.
in response to Guest Blogger:
“Since GHGs make it more difficult for the longwave to get to outer space, higher temperatures at the surface and troposphere are required to maintain that balance given higher GHG concentrations.”
Except if you look at the difference between daily temperature increase to the following night falling temps, there is no loss of nightly cooling in the temperature record.
Brent Lofgren,
Aside from the fact that every prediction of runaway global warming and climate catastrophe has been decisively falsified by Planet Earth [see: climate Null Hypothesis], if we started accepting logical fallacies because they didn’t fit our narrative, we would be back to witch doctors in no time. […oh, wait…]
The Argumentum ad Ignoranitum fallacy is critical to all science. Climate science, such as it is, needs to pay attention. That particular fallacy says: “Since I can’t think of any other reason for global warming, then it must be due to CO2.”
Nonsense. If that were the case, then following the ≈40% rise in CO2, global temperatures would be smartly rising right now — and at an accelerating rate.
But temperatures are not only not rising, they have stalled for the past decade and a half. Honest scientists would normally stop at this point and reassess their AGW conjecture, per Feynman [“If it doesn’t match obsevation, it is wrong.“].
But as we know, big government bucks, job security, endless grants, and academic/government status all combine to make for lots of dishonest scientists. Even the honest ones don’t speak out until they have safely retired. It takes real courage and honesty to speak out before then. Where do you stand?
Brent Lofgren:
At January 9, 2013 at 1:44 pm you paraphrase the Precautionary Principle (PP) claiming it overcomes ‘argument from ignorance’. It does not, but I will address your point.
AGW advocates use the Precutionary Principle saying we should stop greenhouse gas emissions in case the AGW hypothesis is right. But that turns the Principle on its head.
Stopping the emissions would reduce fossil fuel usage with resulting economic damage. This would be worse than the ‘oil crisis’ of the 1970s because the reduction would be greater, would be permanent, and energy use has increased since then. The economic disruption would be world-wide. Major effects would be in the developed world because it has the largest economies. Worst effects would be on the world’s poorest peoples: people near starvation are starved by it.
The precautionary principle says we should not accept the risks of certain economic disruption in attempt to control the world’s climate on the basis of assumptions that have no supporting empirical evidence and merely because they’ve been described using computer games.
Richard
Richard,
I’m not going to say that your argument is false, but it’s a different one from what Lord Monckton made. In the crossing the street example, the question you would ask based on your argument is, “Which is more of a problem, waiting for the light to turn green or the danger of not waiting?”
Because I gave an extreme example, it is difficult to justify crossing against the light, but in some other example, there might be a better argument to balance a conclusion based on argument from ignorance. However, what seems to be argued in the original posting is giving credence, or even serious consideration, to an argument from ignorance, is always wrong. The question in this case, instead is, “Should I cease crossing against the light because I suspect there is a resultant danger and have no other explanation for it, or should I continue to cross against the light because the justification for caution is illogical”–no introduction of a downside to waiting for the light to turn. MiCro and Stealey have also argued against points that I didn’t make.
– – – – – – – – –
Volker Doormann,
And the beat goes on . . . . the dialog goes on.
It is not totally clear to me, but it appears we are not disagreeing wrt the fundamentals of supernaturalism / supersitionism. N’est ce pas?
WRT personal knowledge. If I derive, independently a system of epistemology and metaphysics that is relatively consistent with the major aspects of some philosopher ~2400 years ago and also with some other current philosopher then it is still personally derived personal knowledge. In fact science would insist on total personal activities on any aspect of science. : ) NOTE: by personal knowledge it can be the kind that is objectively verified and integrated or it can be subjective and disintegrated. That is the discussion we have been having mostly on this thread; objective versus subjective discussion is the equivalent to the discussion of science contrasted with, for instance, religion’s supernaturalism / superstitionism.
Regarding your ‘knowledge of existence’ discussion, lest we slip into an anal solipsism, then I think we can all accept reality as an ‘is’ from which Aristotle derived logic. To try to reason using his ‘is’ based logic to disprove the ‘is’ is not merely non-logical; without that logic, a solipsist just is going blah, blah, blah in an incoherent noise to no-one, not even to himself who he thinks doesn’t exist either. : )
John
Volker said:
“You are not a lie, but your existence is not possible to prove, because your existence has no occurrence in this world. One can see only flesh, water and hairs, all atoms.”
who do you think you’re talking to? axiom murderer!
Gail, now quoted 3 times, said:
“When religion is brought into a secular discussion it immediately converts the discussion into a discussion on religion and is therefore similar to the disruption caused by a troll.”
talk about hitting the nail on the head.. that’s gonna leave some stigmata on monckton.
[Reply: I’m surprised that Anthony has not closed this thread. Maybe because it’s better to confine these comments to one thread than to have a religious discussion across WUWT. But don’t get used to these discussions following any other articles. In the mean time, knock yourselves out, and please don’t take it to any other threads. — mod.]
Gunga Din says:
January 9, 2013 at 1:28 pm
Volker Doormann says:
January 9, 2013 at 12:10 pm
gnomish says:
January 9, 2013 at 10:30 am
if a thing exists, then there is a way to prove it.
How do you would prove your existence?
==================================================
“I think. Therefore I am. I think.” – The Moody Blues
(Sorry. Just wanted to inject a bit of levity. I think. 😎
No problem Gunga Din.
It is first spoken by René Descartes as ‘ego cogito, ergo sum’ –‘I think, therefore I am’, but it is a fallacy because he mixed up being with physical processes. Physical processes of connecting neurons in the brain are temporary processes of the neuronal structures of the memory of old experience like fire is hot. It stops if the neurons are not supported by fresh oxygen from the blood.
Being is (timeless). That what IS – like energy – cannot die and/or cannot destroyed to nothing.
The correct saying would be: I think, therefore I must die, and I am, therefore am immortal, like logic, like algebra, like the harmony of music.
One can end thinking in a brain using adequate methods, but one cannot end logic.
Thanks to Lord Monckton of Brenchley for bring it to this place.
V.
Brent Lofgren:
Thankyou for your post addressed to me at January 9, 2013 at 3:17 pm which responds to my post to you at January 9, 2013 at 2:09 pm.
I am sorry but I am at a loss to understand your recent post.
My post to you said I understand your point about escape from ‘argument from ignorance’ to be an appeal to the Precautionary Principle (PP), and I pointed out that PP can be used as a form of cost/benefit analysis; i.e balance of risks.
Your response is an iteration of your ‘cross the road’ analogy. But that analogy seems to me to be a ‘balance of risks’ of exactly the same type as I stated.
And in my example – which is directly pertinent to the argument of Lord Monckton – the PP says we should not take action to constrain CO2 emissions.
What am I missing?
Richard
Richard,
After some more thought, I think what is happening is a difference in our assumptions about what Monckton didn’t say. I’ll grudgingly admit that he didn’t actually say that because argument from ignorance has been used to justify the reality of AGW, absent any other reason, our course of action should be status quo. I will maintain, though, that it was apparent that he hoped the readers would lead themselves to this conclusion. You, on the other hand, seem to claim that he should have said or meant to say that you need to consider the problem of argument from ignorance in balancing with a more complete set of considerations. He didn’t say that, either.
So, although I don’t agree with your premise, at least not as starkly as you stated it, I agree that from that premise, you faithfully followed the precautionary principle to reach a conclusion. In the case of Monckton’s statements, his more limited premise (justification of AGW is based on argument from ignorance), while true, does not by itself justify the conclusion that I attributed, but which was not actually stated in that paragraph.
ok, mr. mod. no harm was intended. i thought you might appreciate the cleverness of referring to solipsism as ‘axiom murder’. it was an honest mistake and i’ll adjust my behavior appropriately.
[1] That’s an oversimplification. So is the catechism; after all, it’s intended as more or less as a summary of belief, not a complete exposition.
[2] I’m intrigued by your comparisions. Perhaps I do not fully understand how you are using the word axiom. I think I understand the sense in math and theology, but “real world” escapes me. I do not see how the real world has axioms, or if it does how those would be “less axiomatic” than mathematical axioms, and “religious axioms” even less so. An axiom is an unprovable assertion that is nevertheless treated as absolutely true, usually, as I recall, to advance a particular system of thinking on some subject. Wasn’t it Gödel who pointed out that self-consistent systems could not be wholly consistent within themselves, but had to have “extra-system” elements (axioms)? It would be surprising if religious systems were somehow exempt.
[3] No offense, but there’s not much insight there. “Revealed truth” has little to do with the real (as in observable directly by the human senses, or indirectly via human artifice) and everything to do with the insensible. It is meant to pass knowledge of the supernatural (in the strictest meaning of the word) into our natural world.
richardscourtney says: People are often loved into a belief but there is no evidence that anybody has ever been argued into a belief.
You should note that the above idea is posted without any data to back it up, it is therefore a “religious”, entirely faith based statement.
So lets “be scientific” and look at at least one point of data directly pertinent to the above idea. C. S. Lewis, noted Christian author (including many books arguing and reasoning about Christianity) stated that he was argued into Christianity by a book by *drumroll* G. K. Chesterton, specifically “The Everlasting Man”.
Conclusion, based on the DATA, at least one man has indeed been argued into a belief. As further proof, he then wrote many books that people still buy and read today, which suggests that people are still being argued, that is, reasoned, deciding to believe something based on reason, today. And C. S. Lewis is not the only one, I know of others as well.
Note that this website is based entirely on the premise that people CAN be argued into a belief, by looking for and presenting actual data and arguments based on that data. Many people claim that there is hard data about the question, “Is there a God, and if so, which one?” If you are going to talk about the scientific method and religion, then you should use the scientific method on that question. The above quote “there is no evidence that anybody has ever been argued into a belief” is in direct opposition to that method. Many people on this site, perhaps yourself included, have been argued into the belief that Climate Change is either not happening or is greatly exaggerated. Therefor, proof that your statement above is wrong can be found in your mirror.
The only way the above statement can be true is if all people everywhere base all their decisions and beliefs entirely on emotion. If even one, or a fair proportion of them, base their beliefs on data based arguments, then the above statement is proven false. This website is based entirely on the idea that people can be argued into a belief. If you actually believe the above statement, you should not be here, you should be on a site with emotion laden pictures of stranded polar bears and the like.
It is a fact that either there is a God, or there is not. If there is, that God is as real and factual as you are. Your beliefs will not change that. Furthermore, if God exists, that God is what that God is, regardless of what you or I or anyone else believes. If God is X, and you believe God is Y, God is X. This is using the scientific method on the idea, God. The idea that you cannot and should not use the scientific method on the idea “God” is a non scientific, faith based, entirely “religious” idea, even if the person saying it claims to “be scientific”.
I would say, and would agree with what Mockton said in this article on this one, that the above statement is true of many who believe in CAGW, hence this discussion and his quote of Chesterton. Much of the thrust of his article is exactly that, that people, often people who claim to “be scientific”, believe in CAGW in a “religious” manner, that is, it defies logic and is not based on data and does not try to be.
Lastly, the idea that all “religious” people, by which I assume you mean people who believe there is a God, go to church, that sort of thing, think only with a certain mindset, that is, a non scientific mindset, believing or disbelieving based entirely on blind faith, and never facts, is shown wrong by people like G K Chesterton and especially C S Lewis. You cannot just label different groups of people and then insist that they all conform to your label, doing so is, once again, thinking in a “religious”, IE non fact based, manner, regardless of how much you may think you are “being scientific” in your own mindset. You can’t just dismiss someone or some idea by just slapping a label on it. Also, because some religions, or some people in some religions, teach that you should believe based not on facts (sometimes disagreeing with their own religions original teachings to do so) does not mean that all people who follow any religion do so. Once again, to just slap a label on them, “religious”, and expect that they will all conform to your idea of them, is itself a “religious”, IE non fact based, entirely faith based, idea, even if you think that by your doing so you are “thinking scientifically”.
Reply: I’m surprised that Anthony has not closed this thread. Maybe because it’s better to confine these comments to one thread than to have a religious discussion across WUWT. But don’t get used to these discussions following any other articles. In the mean time, knock yourselves out, and please don’t take it to any other threads. — mod.]
Perhaps it is because the original article is, in fact, about how the pro CAGW activists are arguing in a “religious” manner (or what many people think of as the “religious” manner anyway). It is therefor appropriate, here anyway, to talk about what a “religious” manner is or isn’t.
I wouldn’t dream of taking it to another thread, because the above is true about the article we are discussing here, but is not true about other articles that people post a thread on.
If CAGW is a religion, what vestments should its priests wear? maybe Josh can dream something up. Oh, and architecture for a “church” (temple?) to.
Actually, I liked ‘axiom murder’.
Example of an axiom murderer is *drunroll* G K Chesterton, “Whenever possible Chesterton made his points with popular sayings, proverbs, allegories—first carefully turning them inside out.” Example:
In Orthodoxy he writes: “The worship of will is the negation of will… If Mr. Bernard Shaw comes up to me and says, ‘Will something’, that is tantamount to saying, ‘I do not mind what you will’, and that is tantamount to saying, ‘I have no will in the matter.’ You cannot admire will in general, because the essence of will is that it is particular.”
This style of argumentation is what Chesterton refers to as using ‘Uncommon Sense’ — that is, that the thinkers and popular philosophers of the day, though very clever, were saying things that were nonsensical. This is illustrated again in Orthodoxy: “Thus when Mr. H. G. Wells says (as he did somewhere), ‘All chairs are quite different’, he utters not merely a misstatement, but a contradiction in terms. If all chairs were quite different, you could not call them ‘all chairs’.” Or, again from Orthodoxy:
The wild worship of lawlessness and the materialist worship of law end in the same void. Nietzsche scales staggering mountains, but he turns up ultimately in Tibet. He sits down beside Tolstoy in the land of nothing and Nirvana. They are both helpless — one because he must not grasp anything, and the other because he must not let go of anything. The Tolstoyan’s will is frozen by a Buddhist instinct that all special actions are evil. But the Nietzscheite’s will is quite equally frozen by his view that all special actions are good; for if all special actions are good, none of them are special. They stand at the crossroads, and one hates all the roads and the other likes all the roads. The result is — well, some things are not hard to calculate. They stand at the cross-roads.
BTW, Chesterton was extremely prolfic, Chesterton wrote around 80 books, several hundred poems, some 200 short stories, 4000 essays, and several plays. He was a literary and social critic, historian, playwright, novelist, Catholic theologian and apologist, debater, and mystery writer. He was a columnist for the Daily News, the Illustrated London News, and his own paper, G. K.’s Weekly; he also wrote articles for the Encyclopædia Britannica, including the entry on Charles Dickens and part of the entry on Humour in the 14th edition (1929).
Considering all that, the above quote of him by Mockton is quite possible to be his, even if it cannot be found in his more common books (such as Father Brown), either directly, or this may be a condensed form out of a longer essay. It could, for instance, be in a newspaper article written by him.
” …This implies an initial holographic entropy of about 1010, …”
1010 what ?
It’s all just a matrix exponential .
Ten to the tenth power, I think, a big number (for entropy) anyway. It simply cannot be cut and pasted, the only way would be to rewrite the original as words instead of numbers, as I did above.
What it means is that the universe started out as a big bang, an explosion (of sorts), and explosions generally do not create low entropy (as in never), but high entropy (chaos, disorder, heat death). It means that that aspect of the early universe was extremely unlikely, and there are many other aspects of it that are said to be even more unlikely, so unlikely that it is described as “this preposterous universe” http://super.colorado.edu/~michaele/Lambda/phys.html .
Your comment is awaiting moderation
Yours is too wild and emotional, and will have to be rewritten to tone it down.
Yours, however, is too boring, and will have to be spiced up.
Moderating is hard work!
yay, Legatus. you and J.W., eh?
i’m still wondering, though, does nobody (except, I think, mr. courtney perhaps?) get the fact that monckton was midwife to the concept of ‘co2 pollution/global warming’, as self proclaimed science advisor to maggie thatcher, and now craves praise for denouncing the malaise to which he helped give birth? (cue eric hoffer quote)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/7823477/Was-Margaret-Thatcher-the-first-climate-sceptic.html
this thread might have been the most dramatic ever at wuwt.
gnomish says: yay, Legatus. you and J.W., eh?
i’m still wondering, though, does nobody (except, I think, mr. courtney perhaps?) get the fact that monckton was midwife to the concept of ‘co2 pollution/global warming’, as self proclaimed science advisor to maggie thatcher, and now craves praise for denouncing the malaise to which he helped give birth? (cue eric hoffer quote)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/7823477/Was-Margaret-Thatcher-the-first-climate-sceptic.html
According to the link, it sounds like Margaret Thatcher was the midwife, if anyone (Mockton was not even mentioned). They then did the scientific thing, look at observation and see if it conforms to theory. It did not, and by that, they knew that the theory of CAGW was wrong. Others have continued to espouse it for the simple reason that they are not honest.
When the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do sir?
It is a simple fact that it has been stated that if CO2 rises yet the temperature does not for more than 15 years, the theory is proven wrong (it is hard to prove a scientific theory right, but you can always prove it wrong). It thus doesn’t matter if the temperature has not risen in 16, 18, 19 or 23 years, all those numbers are greater than 15, and the theory is proven wrong. You can then say “but physics says it must happen!”, to which I say “the physics of gravity says that birds cannot fly, but that has never stopped them”. If the temperature has not risen when physics says it should, then other forces and processes are at work and we should look for them. Not that it matters, since the physics says that should only rise around 1C, hardly catastrophic.
I see no evidence that Mockton “craves praise”. Besides, markx, having been declared God, is getting all the praise, as we all well know.
this thread might have been the most dramatic ever at wuwt.
Some articles inspire drama, often ones by Mockton, Willis, etc. Perhaps it is study of “the classics” that does it, those old writers were nothing if not dramatic.
Next, the movie, who do you want to play you?
Oh, and what famous detective should we bring in to hunt the axiom murderer? I suggest Lord Peter Whimsey, simply for the name.
you’re fun!
a lot more fun than being drowned in agw propaganda and then being revived by smoke, for sure.
Legatus says: January 10, 2013 at 4:06 pm
“…markx, having been declared God, is getting all the praise, as we all well know….”
Alas, it has thus far proved to be a rather disappointing gig. No praise at all, no tribute, and the much touted super-power package does not seem to work.
I have resorted to running around with my tablet (iPad) invoking the 11th commandment, but also with no success whatsoever:
Addendum to Commandments:
11.Thou shalt give tribute to thy god who stands before you!
(Conditions apply: Gold, cash, credit cards accepted. No cheques. PayPal, as the work of the devil, is forbidden. No refunds under any circumstances).
By the way, I just realized who had the manufacture and supply contract for those original tablets that Moses was handed: Steve Jobs.
haivng given it a bit of thought, i think Lord Wimsey should recuse himself.
as it was a baroness who prescribed the near fatal dose of ipecac, those public school boys are wont to whitewash any conflict of interest.
nor should Holmes be called in, as a Mr. Watson preceded mr pachauri as head of that grand scientific organization devoted to forensic meteorology.
let us have Dirk Gently whose intimacy with quantum infodynamics will doubtless help him to distinguish the subinformative particles from the principals.
Legatus says: January 10, 2013 at 4:06 pm
“…markx, having been declared God, is getting all the praise, as we all well know….”
Alas, it has thus far proved to be a rather disappointing gig. No praise at all, no tribute, and the much touted super-power package does not seem to work.
I have resorted to running around with my tablet (iPad) invoking the 11th commandment, but also with no success whatsoever:
Addendum to Commandments:
11.Thou shalt give tribute to thy god who stands before you!
(Conditions apply: Gold, cash, credit cards accepted. No cheques. PayPal, as the work of the devil, is forbidden. No refunds under any circumstances).
By the way, I just realized who had the manufacture and supply contract for those original tablets that Moses was handed: Steve Jobs.
i hope you threw the book at him for that.
http://xkcd.com/501/
gnomish,
Blushing as I say this, but I really like the your term ‘axiom murderer’ in reference to solipsism.
John
Volker Doormann says:
January 9, 2013 at 12:10 pm
gnomish says:
January 9, 2013 at 10:30 am
if a thing exists, then there is a way to prove it.
How do you would prove your existence?
otropogo comments:
This is as illogical a question as I can imagine. And that it should pass unchallenged in a forum professing to be scientific astonishes me.
If insanity can ever be defined, surely one definition would be a state in which the subject no longer trusts his faculties. To question the subjectivity itself goes a step beyond insanity.
Things that can be directly observed do not need to proven. That, sadly, is the lesson modern science has yet to learn, and where it agrees with religion. If something that is observed, even if by many reputable witnesses, even at different times and locations, contradicts orthodoxy, then it is considered “unproven”, when what is required is an explanation.
As to the existence of the “prover”- if his existence is a lie, then how can he prove anything, or have anything proven to him?
OTOH gnomish says:
“if it is not possible to prove, it is a lie.”
otropogo comments:
This statement is poorly formulated. Things that are not directly observable must be provable (ie. not inherently unprovable). But the fact that a theory has not been proven yet (or more commonly, that the proof has not been generally accepted yet), does not make it a lie. Things that are directly observable need only be replicated.
and:
“the assertion that something is true and unprovable is a lie”
No, because a lie can be proven to be such. Also, the word “lie” carries the connotation of deliberate deception. Whereas most of the millions, perhaps billions, of people who mouth unprovable nonsense every day are not conscious of deceiving either themselves or others.
….
“the assertion that something is true because it is unprovable is religion.”
The essence of religion is not conceptual, but organizational. Religion is based on hierarchy, in which superior beings, and (possibly their human proxies – priests, shamans, Phds) decide the structure of the universe and of human society. Critical thought is discouraged, except in the service of orthodoxy, and dissenters are punished or ostracized.
The fundamental theme of religious societies is to grovel in fear of divine punishment reliably administered by family, neighbours, or priesthood. This is why there is little difference in modern practice between the behaviour of Christians, Jews, Moslems, Bhuddists, Hindus, Confucianists and Taoists, despite the huge differences in world view expressed by their various founders.
any news on the premise detection site? cheerful juggling needs a place as much as desperate clenching does…
hi otropogo.
when i say ‘impossible to prove’, that does not mean ‘unproven’
when i say ‘a lie’, that means ‘a statement which is false’
self contradiction is proof of falsehood (this is how falsification is done).
the statement ‘that which is unprovable is a lie’ is logically derived from the statement ‘that which is true is provable’ ( by the law of implication). i don’t think you have falsified the axiom or that you were trying to do so. it must have been a misunderstanding.
however you wish to define religion, i’ll agree to speak your language if we discuss it.
please use my definition of ‘definition’, though: the set of distinguishing characteristics rather than a list of all possible morphologies.
hi gnomish,
“however you wish to define religion, i’ll agree to speak your language if we discuss it.
please use my definition of ‘definition’, though: the set of distinguishing characteristics rather than a list of all possible morphologies.”
“Definition” (in the broadest, general sense) is arguably the core communications issue, and by extension, the Achilles heel, of humanity. It underlies the inability to differentiate sense and nonsense, data and noise, and translation of technical knowledge into meaningful common language. And it is a problem that is steadily growing.
It’s readily apparent that the majority of people in the English speaking world are largely unconscious of the incoherency of their speech. Sometimes it even appears that they revel in speaking nonsense. A perfect example of this was the widespread misuse of the word “literally”, a word that has about as precise a meaning as any word can have. Suddenly, it came in to vogue as substitute for “real” or “really”, in which role it often completely contradicted its normal meaning. Yet this epidemic of unalloyed nonsense came and went (mercifully) without serious comment.
Most people, even highly educated “intellectuals” just don’t care about the corruption of English any more. And with the growing number of second language users adding their erroneous usages to the mix, this can only get worse. Most people would contemptuously dismiss this whole subject as “semantics” (if they’re educated enough to know the word).
There is no sign in the English speaking world of any significant improvement in methods of learning in the last 30 years, despite the advent of personal computers and internet access for almost all. If a student drops out for any significant time before completing high school, he is almost always limited to pursuing studies in the humanities on resuming his schooling. The reason for this is that our society has not been able to devise a means of teaching mature students higher mathematics, or even statistics. But no one even frets about this.
The point of this little rant is to suggest that our society has urgent problems that may actually be amenable to solution, and that we shouldn’t waste our time and energies in futile debates over inherently shape-shifting pseudo-words such as “God” and “religion”, as they are commonly used.
To my mind, the only justifiable discussion of “religion” is as a pathological process, with a view to eliminating it.Ditto for patriotism, tribalism, and nepotism.
However, the obstacles facing individuals practicing this approach aggressively are overwhelming. Since all governments rely on these processes to maintain power, there can be no safe haven anywhere for any researcher or writer impartially working to eliminate them.
This is where a computer program that would analyze speech or writing for tautologies, verbiage, words of purely emotional import, and logical inconsistencies, might save our bacon. Without such a tool, the survival of our society will likely become increasingly threatened by demagoguery and pseudo-science, until it collapses under the burden of nonsense, either by succumbing to its own toxins, or by failing to respond adequately to natural threats.