Guest post by Alec Rawls
Technically Dr. Muscheler is asking me to retract the title of my post, “Raimund Muscheler says that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming“:
I am sure that you are aware of the fact that the title is wrong. I never said that steady high levels of forcing can’t cause warming.
He most certainly did. Here is the sentence of Muscheler’s that I was paraphrasing (with emphasis added):
Solar activity & cosmic rays were relatively constant (high solar activity, strong shielding and low cosmic rays) in the second part of the 20th century and, therefore, it is unlikely that solar activity (whatever process) was involved in causing the warming since 1970.
This is an unconditional statement: the high solar activity of the second half of the century can’t have caused warming because it was “relatively constant.” If Dr. Muscheler wants a retraction he’s going to have to issue it himself, and that actually seems to be what is going on here.
Raimund now rejects the claim that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming. Good. But then on what grounds can he dismiss a solar explanation for late 20th century warming?
His email offers a new rationale. Muscheler thinks the lack of warming from the 40s to the 70s vitiates the solar-warming hypothesis:
My point is rather nicely illustrated in the attached figure [at the top of the post]. It shows the sunspot data and temperature anomalies over the last 160 years (annual data and 11-yr average). It shows the high solar activity I was mentioning.
According to your reasoning one would expect a steady warming since 1950. However, the temperatures were rather constant from 1940 to 1970. Furthermore, the temperature and solar trends are opposite during the last 30 years. So I think one would have to invoke a very strange climate delay effect in order to explain the recent warming with solar forcing.
I would be happy if you could correct the title and add this clarification to your post.
Best wishes,
Raimund
There are a couple of points one can quibble with here:
1) Muscheler again invokes “opposite trends,” as if it is the trend in solar activity, not the level, that would be driving temperature.
2) Those trends have not been “opposite for 30 years.” Solar cycle 22, which ran from 1986-1996, had the same sunspot numbers as cycle 21 but was more intense by pretty much every other measure.
3) Muscheler seems to be asserting that temperature has been rising for the last 30 years when it has been roughly flat for the past 15 years (a fact that presents problems for Muscheler’s preferred CO2-warming theory, but is perfectly compatible with the solar-warming theory, after cycle 23 slowed down and dropped off a cliff).
But set those quibbles aside. What is interesting here is Muscheler’s new argument that if the sun had caused late 20th century warming then the planet should have warmed steadily since 1950.
My reply:
Actually, I would say that warming should have been steady since the 1920’s, but that is only if we are looking at the heat content of the oceans (where almost the entire heat content of the climatosphere resides). Unfortunately, we don’t have good ocean heat content data for this period, while the data we do have–global mean atmospheric surface temperature–is dominated by ocean oscillations.
You suggest that it would take some very strange lags for warming from the 40s to the 70s to not show up until later, but would this actually be strange? Doesn’t it fit with what we KNOW: that the cool 40s-70’s period coincided with a cool-phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation?
Ocean oscillations are widely acknowledged to be the dominant short term driver of global temperature
Just look at what the CO2 alarmists say as soon as their predicted warming fails to show up (April 2008):
Parts of North America and Europe may cool naturally over the next decade, as shifting ocean currents temporarily blunt the global-warming effect caused by mankind, Germany’s Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences said. …
“Those natural climate variations could be stronger than the global-warming trend over the next 10-year period,” Wood said in an interview. “Without knowing that, you might erroneously think there’s no global warming going on.”
The Leibniz study, co-written by Noel Keenlyside, a research scientist at the institute, will be published in the May 1 issue of the journal Nature.
“If we don’t experience warming over the next 10 years, it doesn’t mean that greenhouse-gas warming is not with us,” Keenlyside said in an interview. “There can be natural fluctuations that may mask climate change in the short term.”
Wood and Keenlyside aren’t even talking about the PDO, just the measly AMO. For an historical example where natural fluctuations probably really did “mask climate change in the short term,” the PDO is the place to look.
Here is a comparison of JISAO’s PDO index (red) with the HadCRUT3 temperature record (black):
If ocean oscillations are as powerful a climate driver as the anti-CO2 alarmists claim then this graph suggests a simple story: that cold Pacific surface waters swallowed up a big gulp of warmth from 1940-1970, which the PDO then belched back up during its warm-phase in the 80s and 90s. Without the PDO there might well not have been a 40s-70s temperature dip, making warming over the 20th century much more even.
Is the PDO really this influential, or is it largely coincidence that the PDO was in a cool phase when GMAST dipped a couple of tenths between 1940 and 1970? Without good heat content data it is very hard to gauge but logically there is no upper bound on how powerful an effect ocean oscillations can have. As Jo Nova describes meteorologist William Kininmonth’s “deep cold abyss,” the ocean depths form a great pool of “stored coldness” which is “periodically unleashed on the surface temperatures,” a slumbering dragon that with a flick of its tail can grab away large amounts of surface warmth. Thus we certainly can’t rule out that on time scales of up to decades GMAST really is dominated by ocean oscillations.
The CO2-warming theory needs to invoke ocean oscillations more than the solar theory does
Both have the same difficulty with the 40s-70s dip in temperature. For either theory to work the mid-20th century cooling pretty much has to be explained by ocean oscillations, but the CO2 theory now has to rely on the short-term dominance of ocean oscillations to explain the lack of recent warming as well.
That’s the point of Trenberth’s “missing heat,” right? By his calculations there must be lots of CO2-driven heat accumulating in the oceans. Set aside whether the real problem is with Trenberth’s measurements and calculations, the solar theory has no difficulty explaining why temperatures would be leveling off. With the sun having gone quiet this is the maximum likelihood solar projection (with cooling predicted to follow). It is the special case where GMAST actually tracks ocean heat content. Differences between GMAST and ocean heat are to be expected, but it is the CO2 theory that now needs to invoke that likely divergence from maximum liklihood.
Obviously it is not tenable to reject the ocean oscillation argument when applied to the solar theory but accept in when applied to CO2, but this is what the consensus scientists are effectively doing.
Gavin Schmidt on the asymptotic approach to equilibrium
Dr. Muscheler and I almost got to the ocean oscillations question way back in 2005, but Gavin Schmidt grabbed the hand-off. Raimund had claimed in a RealClimate post that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming:
Regardless of any discussion about solar irradiance in past centuries, the sunspot record and neutron monitor data (which can be compared with radionuclide records) show that solar activity has not increased since the 1950s and is therefore unlikely to be able to explain the recent warming.
I objected in the comments that:
What matters is not the trend in solar activity but the level. It does not have to KEEP going up to be a possible cause of warming. It just has to be high, and it has been since the forties.
Presumably you are looking at the modest drop in temperature in the fifties and sixties as inconsistent with a simple solar warming explanation, but it doesn’t have to be simple. Earth has heat sinks that could lead to measured effects being delayed.
Gavin Schmidt’s response was similar to Muscheler’s today, but Schmidt was explicit about what the process of equilibration should look like:
Response: You are correct in that you would expect a lag, however, the response to an increase to a steady level of forcing is a lagged increase in temperature and then a asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium. This is not what is seen. In fact, the rate of temperature increase is rising, and that is only compatible with a continuing increase in the forcing, i.e. from greenhouse gases. – gavin
Like Muscheler, Schmidt ignores the PDO. It is ocean heat content that should undergo an “asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium,” but all Schneider has to go by is GMAST, so he is implicity assuming that ocean heat content is faithfully tracked by GMAST, regardless of the fact that this relationship can be profoundly obscured by ocean oscillations.
We know that GMAST underwent a substantial mid-century gyration where 20th century warming actually reversed for a couple of decades before accelerated upwards again but we do NOT know that ocean heat content underwent any such gyration. Schmidt assumes it did but the PDO record suggests that it likely did not, in which case Schmidt’s argument that late-century warming must have been caused by CO2 collapses.
The problem is the hidden nature of these ocean-equilibration assumptions
If Schmidt and Muscheler want to dismiss a solar explanation for late 20th century warming by invoking the highly speculative assumption that GMAST is a good proxy for ocean heat content over with the 20th century, that fine. As long as this assumption is made explicit then others can evaluate it and toss any following conclusions in the trash. The problem is that the consensus scientists are not telling the public their real grounds for dismissing a solar explanation.
The consensus position, re-iterated over and over again, is a simple unqualified statement that because solar activity was not going up over the second half of the 20th century it cannot have caused warming over this period (or is unlikely to have caused warming over this period). I have collected a dozen such statements from scientific papers, news articles, and most recently from the First Order Draft of AR5.
Only when I have pressed these scientists on the irrationality of their claim that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming do they start hinting towards the highly speculative arguments about ocean equilibration that are the actual basis for their dismissal of the solar hypothesis. Reliance on such hidden assumptions is not science, so job one is to get these unstated assumptions out in the open where they can properly evaluated. Not surprisingly, unscrutinized assumptions do not stand up well to scrutiny, so job two is knocking ’em down.
The rapid equilibrium assumptions of Lockwood and Solanki, knocked down. The implicit assumption by Muscheler and Schmidt that GMAST should track ocean heat content with no major divergence now knocked down as well. It is a weak argument at best, requiring strong claims about matters of vast uncertainty, wrecking any pretension to have ruled out a solar driver for late 20th century warming.
Until these hidden assumptions are stated I suggest that we all take at face value the positions that these scientists actually assert. When they say that because a high level of forcing was relatively constant it is unlikely to have caused warming, we should say that they think you can’t heat a pot of water by turning the flame to maximum and leaving it there, because that is exactly what they are saying.
Then when they come back with their “what I really meant was,” we can expose their real thinking for the unexamined nonsense it is.
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About setting the zero point of the TSI integration lgl says: “then you have to set the long term HMF average to around 5.”
So lgl made the graphic himself? Nice. Using the average as the zero point seems reasonable, since Steinhilber’s is a long reconstruction and temps were fairly flat over the span.
Leif Svalgaard says:
October 20, 2012 at 2:22 am
Geoff Sharp says:
October 19, 2012 at 11:53 pm
it would be prudent to revisit the pre 1840 Wolf numbers. […]
Do you think Leif would be pushing for this?….not likely.
—————————-
http://ssnworkshop.wikia.com/wiki/3rd_SSN_Workshop
I am pushing for this to be the topic for the 3rd SSN workshop in Tucson in January, 2013:
“The primary goal of this workshop is to extend the reconciled SSN time series back from Schwabe (1826) through Staudach (1750).”
So we can look forward to seeing the pre 1840 Wolf numbers (SIDC) being reviewed. Perhaps when you all understand how the K factors were applied to the GSN values the GSN counts can be used to rectify the SIDC numbers….fat chance I am thinking.
Bob Tisdale says:
October 20, 2012 at 5:28 am
Good-bye, Geoff.
The same old rhetoric from you Bob. Perhaps instead of producing 1 million graphs and forever promoting your book you could look at some of the real world events in relation to the effect of the NW pacific warm pool and ENSO. We are heading for a possible 3 in a row La Nina as predicted which certainly has not been driven by the 2010 El Nino.
http://tinyurl.com/2dg9u22/?q=node/270
@alex
How appropriate for this very morning!
Alec Rawls says:
>Leif writes:
>>you can see that solar activity was also high in the 18th and 19th centuries, while temperatures were not [so people claim, at least].
>ATell me Leif: when you first turn the flame to maximum, is the water you just put on the stove as warm as it is three minutes later? No?
++++++++++++
I just happen to have been plotting the delay and change in temperature of just such an experiment and want to remind everyone that when the knob is turned to ‘high’ it usually makes no immediate difference, and that the efficiency of heat transfer often (but not always) decreases with more applied power. There are sound reasons for this.
There is every reason to suspect that the response to the multiple external drivers of climate and globsl temperature, as part of it, are operating in non-linear ways. I won’t burden you with an extended analogy but it is clear to me on many levels. And the temperature of water in a whole pot is surprisingly difficult to measure.
Alec Rawls says:
October 20, 2012 at 5:27 pm
When I saw the STI integration graph I was wondering if it might have come from you. I thought I remembered you having done something like that before. It’s a useful exercise.
Hi Alec and thanks. Yes, I first did the SSN integration back in 2009
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/ssa-sst-ssn.jpg
and then after I started my blog I included it in this article in 2010
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2010/07/21/nailing-the-solar-activity-global-temperature-divergence-lie/
At that time I was using a ‘zero point’ or ‘ocean equilibrium value’ of 42 SSN. The more recent investigation finds it to be nearer 39.5SSN, but as you say, the value will shift around depending on length and provenance of sst dataset, cloud cover variation feedback to temperature and solar activity levels etc.
Ideally the zero point would be modulated by ocean heat content and/or ssts, since it is the comparison between energy into the oceans vs. energy radiated back out that determines warming or cooling, but we don’t have much historical ohc or sst data so a fixed zero point would seem to be the best that can be done.
Agreed. Given the uncertainty in the sst datasets, I can’t see any way to pin down non-linearity in the zero-point estimate. But I think any modulation will be a second order effect we can safely ignore for now.
About setting the zero point of the TSI integration lgl says: “then you have to set the long term HMF average to around 5.”
So lgl made the graphic himself? Nice. Using the average as the zero point seems reasonable, since Steinhilber’s is a long reconstruction and temps were fairly flat over the span.
I’d be very interested to know what TSI variation we can derive from lgl’s graph. Tim Channon got a reasonably good calibration of our solar-planetary theory to the Steinhilber TSI reconstruction, which would indicate that the feedback of cloud variability to solar variation is reasonably linear.
http:///daedalearth.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/lean-sbf-compare.png
Given a suitable terrestrial amplification factor somewhere within the limits set by Nir Shaviv in his ‘using the oceans as a calorimeter’ JGR paper, we should be able to calibrate TSI on both lgl’s plot and my model.
http://sciencebits.com/calorimeter
Calibrating the TSI is the next step in refining my newer model.
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/sst-model1.png
Matthew R Marler says:
October 20, 2012 at 12:01 pm
“Do you have (does anyone have), time series of the state of the ocean heat sink, global mean temperature, and solar activity, over a span of 3 centuries?”
Although heat buildup in the ocean would be harder to show, here are some striking illustrations of solar-climate correlation on the decade to century scale:
After clicking on the following link, click again to enlarge it and scroll up & down:
http://s8.postimage.org/nz4ionvit/suntemp0.jpg
I just created the above now, but original sources of the compilation are noted inside it.
The preceding focuses on covering centuries at a time.
(I see the plots in the post by lgl at October 20, 2012 at 12:42 pm are good too; although I don’t trust any temperature data by Mann directly, in that case it was not so skewed to mess up the overall picture).
Still lengthier time periods are illustrated in the following Russian paper (with, as usual, Russian sources tending to be good because they tend to avoid the recent CAGW-convenient revisionism occurring on every major related topic in much of the Anglosphere due to the increased dominance of the Western enviropolitical movement and its associated dishonesty):
http://rjes.wdcb.ru/v06/tje04163/tje04163.htm
(They comment on the geomagnetic field’s influence on cosmic ray flux in addition to the influence of the solar-driven interplanetary magnetic field; although I skipped over bothering to depict that in the prior graph compilation, which is very illustrative even without it, Vukcevic seems quite on to something there).
Additional notes:
The falsehood of the post-1970s superficial divergence in the solar activity versus temperature plot at the top of this article is discussed and illustrated with references in my prior October 19, 2012 at 7:07 pm comment in this thread, including the following graph correcting it:
http://s10.postimage.org/z7wcdc56x/suntemp.jpg
I also like this simple demonstration of GCR flux versus high-altitude specific humidity over the past few decades: http://s18.postimage.org/n9nm5glc7/solar_GCRvswatervapor.jpg
Crispin in Yogayakarta says: October 20, 2012 at 10:49 pm
………
(not in Waterloo ? )
Dr.S. is trying to divert attention from the real sun-Earth ‘kitchenalia’.
Here how it works:
Think of the ocean as an open pot of warm water with constant heat input (TSI ) at a level where water is held at constant temperature by evaporation and internal convection.
Leave alone – no natural variability
Add some GHG above – I’ll leave that to AGWs (it will not make any difference, but let’s be tolerant of the CO2 nonsense)
Now to the important part:
Stir for 5 min (interaction of the solar and Earth’s magnetic field), the pot’s Surface Temperature changes (SST-AMO)
Leave alone for 5 min – the pot’s ST slowly reverts back
Result – Sun-Earth natural variability drives the AMO
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/GSC1.htm
With all the toing and froing on this subject, some rather heated, let us all rejoice in the fact that our sun, old Sol has been very kind to us. Virtually ever thing we have we owe to Sol, he oft gets angry and some times has a holiday. These moods can be inconvenient to our comfort and food supplies. Sol is the Earths only power station, our energy supply, without which we perish. Denial of his omnipotence is a new phenomenon based on the faith in a new god CO2. Statements from the new messiahs attribute everything to this new god, even to an increase in ingrown toe nails.
Deny the power of old Sol at your peril, he will come back and bite your bum.
Henry Clark says:
October 21, 2012 at 2:15 am
I also like this simple demonstration of GCR flux versus high-altitude specific humidity over the past few decades: http://s18.postimage.org/n9nm5glc7/solar_GCRvswatervapor.jpg
I think I linked this for you before, but here it is again:
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/shumidity-ssn96.png
Interesting stuff.
Seems to me the main issue boils down to understanding the character of the ocean’s time-response to changes of forcing. Not an easy thing to do. Leif has a point that up-to-date solar TSI reconstructions seem to show little secular change since at least 1750. He’s linked to longer recons showing little change in 2k yrs.
The link that lgl posts above:
http://virakkraft.com/Steinhilber-TSI-%20Mann08-temp.png
is interesting, but looks like it might be using outdated data according to Leif’s latest recons.
Geoff Sharpe comically replies: “The same old rhetoric from you Bob.”
I support what I present. You, on the other hand, Geoff, never support what you present, and for those most part, you fabricate. For example:
You continued, “Perhaps instead of producing 1 million graphs and forever promoting your book…”
Wrong again, Geoff, I did not promote my book on this thread. Two other bloggers referred to it. But for those who haven’t read it, a free preview is here:
http://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/preview-of-who-turned-on-the-heat-v2.pdf
The post that introduces it is here:
http://bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/everything-you-every-wanted-to-know-about-el-nino-and-la-nina-2/
You continued, “…you could look at some of the real world events in relation to the effect of the NW pacific warm pool and ENSO.”
I look at real world data all the time. I haven’t the foggiest idea what you’re talking about since you refuse to document your claims with data. And again, you’d sound more credible if you used the correct names of things or identify them with coordinates. With “NW pacific warm pool”, are you discussing the northwest portion of the Pacific Warm Pool, which is in the tropics, or are you still discussing the Kuroshio-Oyashio Extension like you mentioned in an earlier comment, which is east of Japan and therefore extratropical? Last, it’s not my hypothesis to document, Geoff. It’s yours. Have at it!!
And, Geoff, you concluded your reply, “We are heading for a possible 3 in a row La Nina as predicted which certainly has not been driven by the 2010 El Nino.”
This is a typical nonsensical Geoff Sharpe statement. Who predicted a “3 in a row La Niña” and when was it predicted, Geoff? If it was you, please provide links. And who said it was driven by the 2010 El Niño? Certainly, it wasn’t me. So whatever you’re trying to imply is not going to work, unless you can provide links to specific statements I made.
BTW, your reply to Leif will likely go unanswered for a while, since he noted up thread that he was on his way to Norway.
beng says:
October 21, 2012 at 8:43 am
Leif has a point that up-to-date solar TSI reconstructions seem to show little secular change since at least 1750
Lol. “Up to date”. Heh.
If we examined the last 400 years of sunspot activity, during the period of 1600 to 1700, there was a general lack of sunspot activity. During the 1700s, sunspot activity began to build after a two sunspot minimum cycles.
During the 1800s, again, the century began with a two cycle minimum. The century rose to a peak and began to drop off towards the end.
During the early 1900s, the first two cycles were stronger than the 1700s and 1800s minimums. It was during this period that Sir Richard Gregory matched water levels of Lake Victoria to sunspot activity as pointed out by Sir James Jeans in “Through Space and Time”.
I took his work further and matched it accummulated cyclone energy. There has also been an inch increase in rain and snow for the 1900s from 1900 to 2000.
There was an increase in tropical storms and hurricanes. If there were more hurricanes during the non satillite years, I await that report, but data does show fewer USA costal hits during smaller sunspot cycles for there were fewer observations.
This was noted in Popular Science magazine around January 1870.
In 1911, Niagara Falls froze over. Not one storm was observered in 1914. ( Research of ship records presents evidence of 6 possible tropical storms for that year).
It was noted by most scientists at a recent hurricane conference that overall hurricane activity is in General Decline.
There is only one significant variable that the recent drought, colder winters, fewer hurricanes hitting our shores and the difference of speed in the melting of Glacier Bay’s glacier between early 1900s and the mid-1900s and that was:
Sunspot activity.
From 1930s to 1963 sunspot cycles were stronger than any in the previous 200 years of cycles. The 1963 to 1976 cycle was flat. From 1977 to 2007 they were strong again. Now we are in a minimum.
If you would take the first chart showed above, and pull it further apart, the cycles would not look like mountain peaks but buttes easier to study. The 1964 to 1976 cycle would be flat like Devil’s Tower. That flatness gave us a cold period that global warming Hoaxters use to validate their claims of global warming due to man over the last 40 years.
Rememeber, they only started measuring Arctic Melt in 1979. The Norsemen were saling around Greenland a 1000 years ago.
In a testimony bertween Lord Monckton and three other hand picked global warming alarmists in front of a congressional panel. Though he was hammered, the woman scientist to his left testified there was a higher tree line in the Nevada Mountains before the last mini-ice age. It went over everyone’s head.
One can start anywhere in the USA and follow the tree line right down to water line in Alaska. What the woman’s testimony should have brought to light is the water line for the tree line in the North was farther north and higher in the Rockies.
Now, we have been in a balance for the last 15 years. Climate lag is still mistaken for global warming. That is about to change for the next 30 years.
The cycle of the 1964 to 1976 has already taught us what to look for. The effects of that cycle pushed out in to the 1990s.
Most Sincerely,
Paul Pierett.
Bob Tisdale says:
October 21, 2012 at 9:13 am
Geoff Sharpe comically replies: “The same old rhetoric from you Bob.”
At least you could attempt to spell my name correctly.
This is a typical nonsensical Geoff Sharpe statement. Who predicted a “3 in a row La Niña” and when was it predicted, Geoff? If it was you, please provide links. And who said it was driven by the 2010 El Niño? Certainly, it wasn’t me. So whatever you’re trying to imply is not going to work, unless you can provide links to specific statements I made.
I did provide a link, but you obviously didn’t bother to check it out.
http://tinyurl.com/2dg9u22/?q=node/270
An excerpt from July 2012 reads:
“All the models that are produced by the meteorology groups are pointing towards a El Nino forming this winter in the NH. I am not so sure the models have the all required data to predict accurately as we are in a different para-dime with low solar output and a neg PDO. Most that ascribe to AGW ignore the effects of solar and ocean influences on climate and prefer to claim everything is man made, the models suffer the same fate in my opinion.
The ocean temp anomaly diagram at the opening of this article shows a neg PDO position which has the customary hot spot in the central northern pacific. Last year the prevailing winds that come with a neg PDO moved some of this warm water towards New Guinea which in turn fueled the Walker circulation pump that drives the trade winds which in turn builds up water against Asia and influences the level of the Thermocline. This pushes cold water from below that surfaces off the South American coast and flows towards Asia with assistance of the trade winds. It is still too early to call but July has seen a change with the SOI going positive and the trade winds are maintaining. There is still a high chance of a La Nina forming which would make three in a row.”
The PDO values have mostly been leading the NINO3.4 values for the last 3 years which is at odds with your PDO being an after effect of ENSO statements.
http://stateoftheocean.osmc.noaa.gov/atm/images/pdo_short.gif
http://stateoftheocean.osmc.noaa.gov/sur/images/nino34_short.gif
An animation from July this year shows the warmer water from the NW Pacific (most of us know our compass points) moving towards Papua New Guinea, this is credible evidence of one driver that assists the La Nina process and clear evidence of how a neg PDO can influence ENSO. The 2003 Newman paper heralded by AGW supporters that you frequently lean on is obviously now outdated.
http://tinyurl.com/2dg9u22/images/2012_SST.gif
BTW, your reply to Leif will likely go unanswered for a while, since he noted up thread that he was on his way to Norway.
Congrats on your promotion to Leif’s secretary.
tallbloke says:
October 21, 2012 at 4:17 am
“I think I linked this for you before, but here it is again:
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/shumidity-ssn96.png“
Indeed, I recall such from an earlier thread, and it is a good illustration.
However, often I prefer not to use sunspots because:
1) That is where the current focus is on CAGW-convenient revisionism, and, like I could give examples with arctic ice history (Cryosphere Today propaganda ludicrously flattening the pre-1950s) or any other major climate topic, such recent revisionism can be side-stepped on any topic by using a metric not re-adjusted yet.
2) Although quite related to sunspot counts, cosmic ray flux is more the direct source of most variability in external forcing than sunspot counts which are only an indirect proxy.
#2 mostly may seen like a token insignificant detail. However, if we enter another Grand Minimum a few years from now, how one state of the sun having 0 sunspots can be drastically different from another state of the sun having 0 sunspots will become extra apparent.
For an example which has already occurred to a degree:
If one plots sunspots, both 1996 and 2009 reached 0 sunspots, misleadingly making the minimums appear as if potentially having a flat floor.
However, if one plots cosmic ray count, then the 2009 minimum is seen to be much different (several percent more cosmic ray flux in neutron count) than the 1996 minimum. That in turn is almost nothing compared to what we could get a moderate number of years from now if there is another grand minimum (like a second maunder minimum), which, from prior history, could give not just several percent but an order of magnitude more difference in cosmic ray flux.
Using data other than sunspots better makes blatant how minimums do not have a static flat floor.
In other words, in general, I relatively like to implicitly encourage people to look at metrics other than sunspots, even though in the specific humidity correlation example it doesn’t particularly matter.
—————-
Anyway, thus, for instance, the first plot in my prior post, http://s8.postimage.org/nz4ionvit/suntemp0.jpg for most of the past 6 centuries (click to enlarge) uses multiple cosmogenic isotopes, and I wanted http://s18.postimage.org/n9nm5glc7/solar_GCRvswatervapor.jpg to illustrate how major solar/GCR versus climate correlation occurs even with a metric as indisputable as neutron counts.
Although having the tradeoff of only the past several decades, neutron counts are one of the most indisputable metrics when available. Someone can claim the cosmogenic isotope trends are just spuriously created from terrestrial climate itself (although the plausibility of that being dominant crashes when multiple cosmogenic isotopes show the same pattern). And someone can argue over what sunspot numbers were. But I have not so far seen anybody try to say the neutron counts are spurious.
—————-
I certainly agree, though, that your illustration is quite good too, workable for its purpose.
Long cycles (IE 22 yr plus or minus complete solar cycles) used to make connections with shorter cycles (IE ENSO La Nina and El Nino events) may lead to spurious correlations and connections that then lead to questionable and in some cases, near magical mechanics. Why? Because there is every good chance that a short cycles will occur during a long cycle, yet be wholly unconnected in any physical sense. Like AGW propronents, you must first show two things to be taken seriously. First, that intrinsic factors cannot be the drivers. If you do not take that on, you make the same mistake AGW proponents make by not disproving the mechanics of the null hypothesis, which AGW researchers and modelers are currently getting their noses rubbed by and in. Second, you must also consider whether or not your solar driver can drive long term up and down trends that rise above intrinsic natural variable noise. This you have not shown and neither have AGW proponents, much to their dismay and in spite of data slight of hand. Therefore your proposed driver must still be just a disregarded discussion devoid of real world meaning or iron clad proof.
A word to the wise, jumping the gun puts you in front of it.
Pamela: This post merely argues that the “consensus” grounds for dismissing a solar driver of climate are bogus. It is not trying to make the case FOR a solar driver. That’s a whole different discussion.
Unfortunately graphs only appearing to the minority who click makes it far too easy to skip over them; there is no 22 year averaging in my plots, and looking at not one but all combined is illustrative if someone is unbiased, although only some people are so.
Geoff Sharp, sorry for the delay, but I’ve been doing something productive.
Geoff Sharp says: “At least you could attempt to spell my name correctly.”
My apologies.
Geoff Sharp says: “I did provide a link, but you obviously didn’t bother to check it out.
http://tinyurl.com/2dg9u22/?q=node/270”
I started to read it but your descriptions of Walker Circulation, trade winds and upwelling are so confused that I had to stop before I reached what I assume is your “prediction”. You wrote in your post, “There is still a high chance of a La Nina forming which would make three in a row.” We only have a few months until the peak of the ENSO season to see if your prediction holds, Geoff. I’ll be sure to remind to remind you.
Geoff Sharp says: “The PDO values have mostly been leading the NINO3.4 values for the last 3 years which is at odds with your PDO being an after effect of ENSO statements.
http://stateoftheocean.osmc.noaa.gov/atm/images/pdo_short.gif
http://stateoftheocean.osmc.noaa.gov/sur/images/nino34_short.gif”
Thanks for illustrating to all that that’s how you compare data and on what you base your erroneous opinions. Let me try to rephrase the ENSO-PDO relationship so that you can understand it: ENSO creates the PDO spatial pattern in sea surface temperature anomalies, which is why the PDO is called an ENSO-like pattern. However, the PDO pattern is also strongly influenced by the sea level pressure of the North Pacific, which is why it has a different fingerprint in time.
Geoff Sharp says: “An animation from July this year shows the warmer water from the NW Pacific (most of us know our compass points) moving towards Papua New Guinea, this is credible evidence of one driver that assists the La Nina process and clear evidence of how a neg PDO can influence ENSO. The 2003 Newman paper heralded by AGW supporters that you frequently lean on is obviously now outdated.
http://tinyurl.com/2dg9u22/images/2012_SST.gif”
I don’t see “warmer water from the NW Pacific…moving towards Papua New Guinea”, Geoff. And to confirm that fact, I did something that you appear to do little of. I looked at the data–the sea surface temperature anomalies for that region. Tropical sea surface temperature anomalies north of Papua New Guinea peaked in May this year and have dropped ever since. In fact, Geoff, the sea surface temperature anomalies north of Papua New Guinea have cooled since July:
http://i45.tinypic.com/244b7zq.jpg
You amaze me in two ways, Geoff. First is your limited grasp of reality. Second is your willingness to flaunt it.
Have a nice day.
Bob Tisdale says:
October 24, 2012 at 3:10 pm
Geoff Sharp, sorry for the delay, but I’ve been doing something productive.
Interesting that you and Leif disappear at the same time. Also interesting that between you both the IPCC mantra of no solar or PDO influence on climate prevails.
I don’t see “warmer water from the NW Pacific…moving towards Papua New Guinea”, Geoff. And to confirm that fact, I did something that you appear to do little of. I looked at the data–the sea surface temperature anomalies for that region. Tropical sea surface temperature anomalies north of Papua New Guinea peaked in May this year and have dropped ever since. In fact, Geoff, the sea surface temperature anomalies north of Papua New Guinea have cooled since July:
http://i45.tinypic.com/244b7zq.jpg
You like the failed BOM and NOAA ENSO models do not see the obvious. The area shown in your graph reinforces my point, the area in contention is continually above normal in reference to SST anomalies which promotes lower pressures in that region compared to the eastern equatorial pacific. The SOI has shown this in detail and clearly demonstrates what some of us understand, the typical neg PDO spatial patterns encourage La Nina conditions.
That you do not see the movement of warm water does not surprise me, study carefully the last three frames of the loop which should continue to load the area over the next weeks. I will update the animation as data comes to hand.
Forecasters surprised by El Nino turnaround.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-24/forecasters-surprised-by-el-nino-turnaround/4332260
“Dr Watkins says they are not sure why there has been a cooling down.
“It actually is quite a unique situation if we end up not going into an El Nino event,” he said.
“It’ll sort of be the biggest turnaround that we’ve actually seen in our records going back to about 1950, so quite unprecedented.”
I watched a BOM interview yesterday that stated the last time this occurred was during the 1950’s…this is right in the middle of a neg PDO.
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