Muscheler retracts? Offers a NEW excuse for why solar activity can't be responsible for post-70's warming

Guest post by Alec Rawls

Technically Dr. Muscheler is asking me to retract the title of my post, “Raimund Muscheler says that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming“:

I am sure that you are aware of the fact that the title is wrong. I never said that steady high levels of forcing can’t cause warming.

He most certainly did. Here is the sentence of Muscheler’s that I was paraphrasing (with emphasis added):

Solar activity & cosmic rays were relatively constant (high solar activity, strong shielding and low cosmic rays) in the second part of the 20th century and, therefore, it is unlikely that solar activity (whatever process) was involved in causing the warming since 1970.

This is an unconditional statement: the high solar activity of the second half of the century can’t have caused warming because it was “relatively constant.” If Dr. Muscheler wants a retraction he’s going to have to issue it himself, and that actually seems to be what is going on here.

Raimund now rejects the claim that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming. Good. But then on what grounds can he dismiss a solar explanation for late 20th century warming?

His email offers a new rationale. Muscheler thinks the lack of warming from the 40s to the 70s vitiates the solar-warming hypothesis:

My point is rather nicely illustrated in the attached figure [at the top of the post]. It shows the sunspot data and temperature anomalies over the last 160 years (annual data and 11-yr average). It shows the high solar activity I was mentioning.

According to your reasoning one would expect a steady warming since 1950. However, the temperatures were rather constant from 1940 to 1970. Furthermore, the temperature and solar trends are opposite during the last 30 years. So I think one would have to invoke a very strange climate delay effect in order to explain the recent warming with solar forcing.

I would be happy if you could correct the title and add this clarification to your post.

Best wishes,

Raimund

There are a couple of points one can quibble with here:

1) Muscheler again invokes “opposite trends,” as if it is the trend in solar activity, not the level, that would be driving temperature.

2) Those trends have not been “opposite for 30 years.” Solar cycle 22, which ran from 1986-1996, had the same sunspot numbers as cycle 21 but was more intense by pretty much every other measure.

3) Muscheler seems to be asserting that temperature has been rising for the last 30 years when it has been roughly flat for the past 15 years (a fact that presents problems for Muscheler’s preferred CO2-warming theory, but is perfectly compatible with the solar-warming theory, after cycle 23 slowed down and dropped off a cliff).

But set those quibbles aside. What is interesting here is Muscheler’s new argument that if the sun had caused late 20th century warming then the planet should have warmed steadily since 1950.

My reply:

Actually, I would say that warming should have been steady since the 1920’s, but that is only if we are looking at the heat content of the oceans (where almost the entire heat content of the climatosphere resides). Unfortunately, we don’t have good ocean heat content data for this period, while the data we do have–global mean atmospheric surface temperature–is dominated by ocean oscillations.

You suggest that it would take some very strange lags for warming from the 40s to the 70s to not show up until later, but would this actually be strange? Doesn’t it fit with what we KNOW: that the cool 40s-70’s period coincided with a cool-phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation?

Ocean oscillations are widely acknowledged to be the dominant short term driver of global temperature

Just look at what the CO2 alarmists say as soon as their predicted warming fails to show up (April 2008):

Parts of North America and Europe may cool naturally over the next decade, as shifting ocean currents temporarily blunt the global-warming effect caused by mankind, Germany’s Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences said. …

“Those natural climate variations could be stronger than the global-warming trend over the next 10-year period,” Wood said in an interview. “Without knowing that, you might erroneously think there’s no global warming going on.”

The Leibniz study, co-written by Noel Keenlyside, a research scientist at the institute, will be published in the May 1 issue of the journal Nature.

“If we don’t experience warming over the next 10 years, it doesn’t mean that greenhouse-gas warming is not with us,” Keenlyside said in an interview. “There can be natural fluctuations that may mask climate change in the short term.”

Wood and Keenlyside aren’t even talking about the PDO, just the measly AMO. For an historical example where natural fluctuations probably really did “mask climate change in the short term,” the PDO is the place to look.

Here is a comparison of JISAO’s PDO index (red) with the HadCRUT3 temperature record (black):

If ocean oscillations are as powerful a climate driver as the anti-CO2 alarmists claim then this graph suggests a simple story: that cold Pacific surface waters swallowed up a big gulp of warmth from 1940-1970, which the PDO then belched back up during its warm-phase in the 80s and 90s. Without the PDO there might well not have been a 40s-70s temperature dip, making warming over the 20th century much more even.

Is the PDO really this influential, or is it largely coincidence that the PDO was in a cool phase when GMAST dipped a couple of tenths between 1940 and 1970? Without good heat content data it is very hard to gauge but logically there is no upper bound on how powerful an effect ocean oscillations can have. As Jo Nova describes meteorologist William Kininmonth’s “deep cold abyss,” the ocean depths form a great pool of “stored coldness” which is “periodically unleashed on the surface temperatures,” a slumbering dragon that with a flick of its tail can grab away large amounts of surface warmth. Thus we certainly can’t rule out that on time scales of up to decades GMAST really is dominated by ocean oscillations.

The CO2-warming theory needs to invoke ocean oscillations more than the solar theory does

Both have the same difficulty with the 40s-70s dip in temperature. For either theory to work the mid-20th century cooling pretty much has to be explained by ocean oscillations, but the CO2 theory now has to rely on the short-term dominance of ocean oscillations to explain the lack of recent warming as well.

That’s the point of Trenberth’s “missing heat,” right? By his calculations there must be lots of CO2-driven heat accumulating in the oceans. Set aside whether the real problem is with Trenberth’s measurements and calculations, the solar theory has no difficulty explaining why temperatures would be leveling off. With the sun having gone quiet this is the maximum likelihood solar projection (with cooling predicted to follow). It is the special case where GMAST actually tracks ocean heat content. Differences between GMAST and ocean heat are to be expected, but it is the CO2 theory that now needs to invoke that likely divergence from maximum liklihood.

Obviously it is not tenable to reject the ocean oscillation argument when applied to the solar theory but accept in when applied to CO2, but this is what the consensus scientists are effectively doing.

Gavin Schmidt on the asymptotic approach to equilibrium

Dr. Muscheler and I almost got to the ocean oscillations question way back in 2005, but Gavin Schmidt grabbed the hand-off. Raimund had claimed in a RealClimate post that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming:

Regardless of any discussion about solar irradiance in past centuries, the sunspot record and neutron monitor data (which can be compared with radionuclide records) show that solar activity has not increased since the 1950s and is therefore unlikely to be able to explain the recent warming.

I objected in the comments that:

What matters is not the trend in solar activity but the level. It does not have to KEEP going up to be a possible cause of warming. It just has to be high, and it has been since the forties.

Presumably you are looking at the modest drop in temperature in the fifties and sixties as inconsistent with a simple solar warming explanation, but it doesn’t have to be simple. Earth has heat sinks that could lead to measured effects being delayed.

Gavin Schmidt’s response was similar to Muscheler’s today, but Schmidt was explicit about what the process of equilibration should look like:

Response: You are correct in that you would expect a lag, however, the response to an increase to a steady level of forcing is a lagged increase in temperature and then a asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium. This is not what is seen. In fact, the rate of temperature increase is rising, and that is only compatible with a continuing increase in the forcing, i.e. from greenhouse gases. – gavin

Like Muscheler, Schmidt ignores the PDO. It is ocean heat content that should undergo an “asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium,” but all Schneider has to go by is GMAST, so he is implicity assuming that ocean heat content is faithfully tracked by GMAST, regardless of the fact that this relationship can be profoundly obscured by ocean oscillations.

We know that GMAST underwent a substantial mid-century gyration where 20th century warming actually reversed for a couple of decades before accelerated upwards again but we do NOT know that ocean heat content underwent any such gyration. Schmidt assumes it did but the PDO record suggests that it likely did not, in which case Schmidt’s argument that late-century warming must have been caused by CO2 collapses.

The problem is the hidden nature of these ocean-equilibration assumptions

If Schmidt and Muscheler want to dismiss a solar explanation for late 20th century warming by invoking the highly speculative assumption that GMAST is a good proxy for ocean heat content over with the 20th century, that fine. As long as this assumption is made explicit then others can evaluate it and toss any following conclusions in the trash. The problem is that the consensus scientists are not telling the public their real grounds for dismissing a solar explanation.

The consensus position, re-iterated over and over again, is a simple unqualified statement that because solar activity was not going up over the second half of the 20th century it cannot have caused warming over this period (or is unlikely to have caused warming over this period). I have collected a dozen such statements from scientific papers, news articles, and most recently from the First Order Draft of AR5.

Only when I have pressed these scientists on the irrationality of their claim that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming do they start hinting towards the highly speculative arguments about ocean equilibration that are the actual basis for their dismissal of the solar hypothesis. Reliance on such hidden assumptions is not science, so job one is to get these unstated assumptions out in the open where they can properly evaluated. Not surprisingly, unscrutinized assumptions do not stand up well to scrutiny, so job two is knocking ’em down.

The rapid equilibrium assumptions of Lockwood and Solanki, knocked down. The implicit assumption by Muscheler and Schmidt that GMAST should track ocean heat content with no major divergence now knocked down as well. It is a weak argument at best, requiring strong claims about matters of vast uncertainty, wrecking any pretension to have ruled out a solar driver for late 20th century warming.

Until these hidden assumptions are stated I suggest that we all take at face value the positions that these scientists actually assert. When they say that because a high level of forcing was relatively constant it is unlikely to have caused warming, we should say that they think you can’t heat a pot of water by turning the flame to maximum and leaving it there, because that is exactly what they are saying.

Then when they come back with their “what I really meant was,” we can expose their real thinking for the unexamined nonsense it is.

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October 20, 2012 5:15 am

tallbloke says:
October 20, 2012 at 4:41 am
Yes Leif. But, if the Earth’s magnetic dipole moment is itself varying proportionally in anticorrelation to heliomagnetic changes
The variation of the Earth’s magnetic dipole has nothing to do with the magnetic field in the heliosphere, but is generated in the core deep down. The dipole is now decreasing, at other times it was increasing, at times it flips, all of that is interior to the Earth.
then this is going to affect both the trend and magnitude you are trying to correct from a linear baseline which doesn’t exist, isn’t it?
This is somewhat muddled, one answer would be that if there are trends in the instrument, not related to the thing you are trying to measure, the trends must be removed. For instance, we use the ionosphere as our instrument to measure solar FUV [or sunspots, if you will], but if the sensitivity of the ionosphere changes [as it does if the Earth’s dipole changes] then that change has to be identified and corrected for, as Cnossen et al. point out.

tallbloke
October 20, 2012 5:17 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
October 20, 2012 at 4:45 am
The correlations are too poor to be considered seriously.

LOL. You correlate strongly with the middleman here Leif.
http://bit.ly/RMOcuD

October 20, 2012 5:18 am

tallbloke says:
October 20, 2012 at 4:47 am
It’s certainly a LOL that Leif is painting himself into a corner where he is forcing himself to the position which agrees with our Planetary-Solar theory,
is a silly statement in the context it is in. All I’m saying is that the correlations are lousy. If they were very good, that would be a different story, but they are not.

Birdieshooter
October 20, 2012 5:20 am

This is not a contentious question, rather simply one to educate myself. It is for Leif or Nicola or anyone else who can give it a shot. Following up on the heating water on the burner analogy, where there is more heat (energy) when the burner is turned on, does the Sun give off more heat ( energy) during these variable periods that are being discussed. If so, what is the percentage differences of heat (energy) that might be sent toward earth. Simply put, is the water over a burner an apt analogy.

Luther Wu
October 20, 2012 5:24 am

tallbloke says:
October 20, 2012 at 4:47 am

____________
there once was a fine layman laddie
watched Sol and ate good finnan haddie
he’d post here on WUWT
ne’er lookin’ for loot
but, the Prof served him lutefisk pattie

Editor
October 20, 2012 5:28 am

Geoff Sharp says: “This is purely your own opinion. Recent data suggests otherwise.”
My understandings that the PDO is an aftereffect of ENSO are not “purely my own opinion.” If memory serves, I’ve provided the first three links for you on previous threads.
My understandings are confirmed by Zhang et al (1997), which was the study that introduced the PDO. They call it the NP in that paper:
http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~david/zwb1997.pdf
It is confirmed by Newman et al (2004):
http://courses.washington.edu/pcc587/readings/newman2003.pdf
It is confirmed by Shakun and Shaman (2009):
http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/18654/Shakun_and_Shaman_Geophys_Res_Lett_2009.pdf?sequence=1
The applicable quotes are included in my post here:
http://bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/yet-even-more-discussions-about-the-pacific-decadal-oscillation-pdo/
And it is confirmed by the Schneider and Cornuelle (2005) paper I linked for you above:
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI3527.1
Geoff Sharp says: “Recent data suggests otherwise.”
You’ll need to document that statement with data. Otherwise we’ll simply add it to the list of your false and unsupported claims.
Geoff Sharp says: “…the PDO index is a reliable indicator of the equatorial ocean heat exchange with the atmosphere….end of story.”
That is the silliest, most ridiculous statement you’ve made to date. I laughed out loud. Thanks. If you thought you had credibility here at WUWT, that one destroyed it forever. Maybe you should have taken Anthony’s advice and limited your comments to solar discussions.
Everyone here understands the PDO is derived through a statistical analysis of the sea surface temperature anomalies of the North Pacific, north of 20N. You’ve got the right ocean basin, Geoff, but you’re not the right ballpark.
Good-bye, Geoff.

October 20, 2012 5:38 am

tallbloke says:
October 20, 2012 at 5:17 am
LOL. You correlate strongly with the middleman here Leif.
Your silliness continues: http://s3.amazonaws.com/uplaya_artists/photos/20656/grinningchimp_large.jpg
Birdieshooter says:
October 20, 2012 at 5:20 am
If so, what is the percentage differences of heat (energy) that might be sent toward earth.
Tiny: 7% through a year, 0.1% from year to year.

tallbloke
October 20, 2012 5:43 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
October 20, 2012 at 4:33 am
Vuk claimed that the scientists made some statements.

No he didn’t. This is what Vuk said:
Vuk Said:
but to assert that scientists from JPL and the Universite Paris Diderot and Institut de Physique du Globe :
“do not know what they are talking about here”
will not make any difference to the fact that
Sun is the major factor in number of the Earth’s events…..
geological changes http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/SSN-NAP.htm
magnetic field variability http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/TMC.htm
and ultimately temperature variability http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/EarthNV.htm
In none of the above (mutualy related and for the climate fundamental relationships) you even attempted to prove, let alone proved that correlation is spurious.

And he’s right. You keep saying you’ve disproved us, but you haven’t. You keep saying the correlations are weak, but they’re not. If you had any arguments with real force, you wouldn’t need to resort to this sort of behaviour.
Leif says:
Vuk, like you, is not a ‘researcher’ in any true sense of that word.

You’re displaying all the signs of being a world class propagandist again. Excelled by none, except another Stanford colleague perhaps.
“Each of us must decide on the right balance between honesty and effectiveness”
-Stephen H Schneider-

tallbloke
October 20, 2012 5:53 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
October 20, 2012 at 5:15 am
For instance, we use the ionosphere as our instrument to measure solar FUV [or sunspots, if you will],

You can’t substitute one for the other. They are two different indices. One is measured with magnetometers and the other is counted using a telescope. You are welcome to propound your IDV reconstruction, but not to corrupt the observational record by conflating it with the sunspot count. And yes, I know Wolff rejigged his sunspot series with reference to magnetic readings.
Both indices are valuable, and should not be mushed together, because their differences contain information. Think about that.

Lars P.
October 20, 2012 5:59 am

Maybe this modelling study could add to the understanding of solar influence? It propose a solution for the amplifying of the 11 years cycle, not sure if any study has been done on several decades variations?
http://theresilientearth.com/?q=content/atmospheric-solar-heat-amplifier-discovered
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/325/5944/1114.full
Gerald A. Meehl et al.

October 20, 2012 6:06 am

Bob Tisdale says:
October 20, 2012 at 5:28 am
Geoff Sharp says: “…the PDO index is a reliable indicator of the equatorial ocean heat exchange with the atmosphere….end of story.”
That is the silliest, most ridiculous statement you’ve made to date. I laughed out loud. Thanks. If you thought you had credibility here at WUWT, that one destroyed it forever. Maybe you should have taken Anthony’s advice and limited your comments to solar discussions.

There Geoff does not have much credibility either…Now, there must be some discussion where he could make a difference. Trying to think of one….

Resourceguy
October 20, 2012 6:15 am

The correlation not causation of declining solar cycles and declining PDO and south Atlantic sea surface temp is getting interesting to watch. I note other correlations not causation patterns also like diverging climate models from reality. This correlation not causation is getting interesting.

October 20, 2012 6:23 am

Dr. Svalgaard
the reality is that there is strong correlation between solar activity on many factors affecting the Earth’s behavior.
Sun affects Earth’s geological changes
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/SSN-NAP.htm
Sun affects Earth’s magnetic field variability
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/TMC.htm
Sun affects Earth’s temperature variability
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/EarthNV.htm
You may proclaim it lousy correlation, you could even deny it, but
you can not undo what Vukcevic has found.

Richard M
October 20, 2012 6:35 am

I for one am a little confused. It seems to me that Leif’s comments actually support Alec’s views and Tallbloke has it measured. Looks to me like everyone is in agreement.
Since the depths of the LIA we have seen a more active Sun. That has raised the global temperature over that time. The active sun in the 18th century warmed the planet from the lower temperature of the 17th. Same for the 19th century except the level was a little higher going in. Once again the same holds true for the 20th century with the baseline even higher than the previous century. In other words, the Sun has provided the means for us to warm out of the coldest period of this interglacial.
Now, where am I misunderstanding what’s being claimed?

Marc77
October 20, 2012 6:35 am

“In fact, the rate of temperature increase is rising, and that is only compatible with a continuing increase in the forcing, i.e. from greenhouse gases. – gavin”
So, whatever is in the “pipeline” cannot be worst than what we have seen so far…

beng
October 20, 2012 6:40 am

****
Geoff Sherrington says:
October 20, 2012 at 2:46 am
So, tomorrow will be a fun day at the monitor, looking at as many nuclear explosions as I can find on videos.
****
I bought a bunch of VHS video-tapes from the US gov yrs ago of many of the nuclear test shots. The level of sophistication & preparation of the tests were impressive. A few clips show the initial fireballs photoed by extremely high-speed cameras to record the size/shape/speed & estimate bomb efficiency.
I’d assume they’ve been put on up-to-date media, but don’t know if you could purchase them in Australia….

tallbloke
October 20, 2012 6:44 am

Lars P. says:
October 20, 2012 at 5:59 am
Maybe this modelling study could add to the understanding of solar influence? It propose a solution for the amplifying of the 11 years cycle, not sure if any study has been done on several decades variations?
http://theresilientearth.com/?q=content/atmospheric-solar-heat-amplifier-discovered
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/325/5944/1114.full
Gerald A. Meehl et al.

Thanks for that. Here’s another:
http://sciencebits.com/calorimeter

October 20, 2012 6:49 am

tallbloke says:
October 20, 2012 at 5:43 am
“Vuk claimed that the scientists made some statements.”
No he didn’t. This is what Vuk said:
Jean Dickey of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena:
“an external (e.g. solar) process affects the core and climate simultaneously.”
“I suppose you do extend the compliment to her coautor:
Dr. Olivier de Viron of the Universite Paris Diderot and Institut de Physique du Globe de Paris.”

I suggest that those gentlemen do not share her silly remark, and challenged Vuk to show us that they did.
If you had any arguments with real force
It odes not take arguments of any force to establish that the correlations are poor. If they were any good, we would not this discussion and hundred of scientists all over the world would be busy exploring the consequences and causes.
tallbloke says:
October 20, 2012 at 5:53 am
“For instance, we use the ionosphere as our instrument to measure solar FUV [or sunspots, if you will]”
You can’t substitute one for the other. They are two different indices.

The point is that they measure the same thing just in different ways. This is not even a point to discuss as this is accepted science used in daily operations.

October 20, 2012 6:53 am

vukcevic says:
October 20, 2012 at 6:23 am
You may proclaim it lousy correlation, you could even deny it, but
you can not undo what [the great] Vukcevic has found.

Don’t need to, lots of people find strange things that are not true, why should one try to ‘undo’ what they found. Let them have it. It only becomes a problem, when they try to push it onto others.

October 20, 2012 7:10 am

tallbloke says:
October 20, 2012 at 5:43 am
“Each of us must decide on the right balance between honesty and effectiveness”
-Stephen H Schneider-

Clearly, I have tilted the balance too far away from effectiveness. I shall now leave you to your own devices and continuing stream of smears, as I’m off to Oslo.

October 20, 2012 7:34 am

L.S. It only becomes a problem, when they try to push it onto others.
Hey doc
Science never stood still, it is only a problem for those who whish to deny the cause of nature.
lots of people find strange things that are not true
Let’s see:
1. Solar activity correlates to planetary magnetic feedback
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LFC2.htm
2. Earth’s geological changes correlates with solar activity
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/SSN-NAP.htm
3. Earth’s magnetic field variability correlates with solar activity
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/TMC.htm
4. Earth’s temperature variability correlates with solar activity
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/EarthNV.htm
And you suggest that none of the above is true, despite all contained in good instrumental data, most of which you daily refer to. Strange things do not appear in nature, strange are people who wish to deny nature.
Vuk’s findings are true nightmare for any nature ‘negatron’
Years of fun to come.

tallbloke
October 20, 2012 7:44 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
October 20, 2012 at 6:49 am
tallbloke says:
October 20, 2012 at 5:53 am
“For instance, we use the ionosphere as our instrument to measure solar FUV [or sunspots, if you will]”
You can’t substitute one for the other. They are two different indices.
The point is that they measure the same thing just in different ways. This is not even a point to discuss as this is accepted science used in daily operations.

Yes Leif. Climate models which conflate natural variation with co2 forcing are “accepted science used in daily operations” too. This doesn’t mean they are correct though.

Lars P.
October 20, 2012 7:46 am

tallbloke says:
October 20, 2012 at 6:44 am
Thanks tallbloke, very interesting!

October 20, 2012 7:49 am

Dr. L.S.
I suggest that those gentlemen do not share her silly remark, and challenged Vuk to show us that they did.
Here what is said:
“So how might all three of these variables – Earth’s rotation, movements in Earth’s core (formally known as the core angular momentum) and global surface air temperature – be related? That’s what researchers Jean Dickey and Steven Marcus of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., and colleague Olivier de Viron of the Universite Paris Diderot and Institut de Physique du Globe de Paris in France
, set out to discover in a first-of-its-kind study.
………
Since scientists know air temperature can’t affect movements of Earth’s core or Earth’s length of day to the extent observed, one possibility is the movements of Earth’s core might disturb Earth’s magnetic shielding of charged-particle (i.e., cosmic ray) fluxes that have been hypothesized to affect the formation of clouds. This could affect how much of the sun’s energy is reflected back to space and how much is absorbed by our planet. Other possibilities are that some other core process could be having a more indirect effect on climate, or that an external (e.g. solar) process affects the core and climate simultaneously.”
NASA: March 09, 2011
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2011-074
They are incorrect to say: “set out to discover in a first-of-its-kind study”. Since I’ve been plotting data for some years now.
Vukcevic: September 17, 2009
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/41/83/04/PDF/NATA.pdf

tallbloke
October 20, 2012 7:50 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
October 20, 2012 at 7:10 am
I shall now leave you to your own devices and [cease my] continuing stream of smears, as I’m off to Oslo.

Excellent, an opportunity for decent respectful climate conversation. Have a lovely flight.

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