Muscheler retracts? Offers a NEW excuse for why solar activity can't be responsible for post-70's warming

Guest post by Alec Rawls

Technically Dr. Muscheler is asking me to retract the title of my post, “Raimund Muscheler says that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming“:

I am sure that you are aware of the fact that the title is wrong. I never said that steady high levels of forcing can’t cause warming.

He most certainly did. Here is the sentence of Muscheler’s that I was paraphrasing (with emphasis added):

Solar activity & cosmic rays were relatively constant (high solar activity, strong shielding and low cosmic rays) in the second part of the 20th century and, therefore, it is unlikely that solar activity (whatever process) was involved in causing the warming since 1970.

This is an unconditional statement: the high solar activity of the second half of the century can’t have caused warming because it was “relatively constant.” If Dr. Muscheler wants a retraction he’s going to have to issue it himself, and that actually seems to be what is going on here.

Raimund now rejects the claim that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming. Good. But then on what grounds can he dismiss a solar explanation for late 20th century warming?

His email offers a new rationale. Muscheler thinks the lack of warming from the 40s to the 70s vitiates the solar-warming hypothesis:

My point is rather nicely illustrated in the attached figure [at the top of the post]. It shows the sunspot data and temperature anomalies over the last 160 years (annual data and 11-yr average). It shows the high solar activity I was mentioning.

According to your reasoning one would expect a steady warming since 1950. However, the temperatures were rather constant from 1940 to 1970. Furthermore, the temperature and solar trends are opposite during the last 30 years. So I think one would have to invoke a very strange climate delay effect in order to explain the recent warming with solar forcing.

I would be happy if you could correct the title and add this clarification to your post.

Best wishes,

Raimund

There are a couple of points one can quibble with here:

1) Muscheler again invokes “opposite trends,” as if it is the trend in solar activity, not the level, that would be driving temperature.

2) Those trends have not been “opposite for 30 years.” Solar cycle 22, which ran from 1986-1996, had the same sunspot numbers as cycle 21 but was more intense by pretty much every other measure.

3) Muscheler seems to be asserting that temperature has been rising for the last 30 years when it has been roughly flat for the past 15 years (a fact that presents problems for Muscheler’s preferred CO2-warming theory, but is perfectly compatible with the solar-warming theory, after cycle 23 slowed down and dropped off a cliff).

But set those quibbles aside. What is interesting here is Muscheler’s new argument that if the sun had caused late 20th century warming then the planet should have warmed steadily since 1950.

My reply:

Actually, I would say that warming should have been steady since the 1920’s, but that is only if we are looking at the heat content of the oceans (where almost the entire heat content of the climatosphere resides). Unfortunately, we don’t have good ocean heat content data for this period, while the data we do have–global mean atmospheric surface temperature–is dominated by ocean oscillations.

You suggest that it would take some very strange lags for warming from the 40s to the 70s to not show up until later, but would this actually be strange? Doesn’t it fit with what we KNOW: that the cool 40s-70’s period coincided with a cool-phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation?

Ocean oscillations are widely acknowledged to be the dominant short term driver of global temperature

Just look at what the CO2 alarmists say as soon as their predicted warming fails to show up (April 2008):

Parts of North America and Europe may cool naturally over the next decade, as shifting ocean currents temporarily blunt the global-warming effect caused by mankind, Germany’s Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences said. …

“Those natural climate variations could be stronger than the global-warming trend over the next 10-year period,” Wood said in an interview. “Without knowing that, you might erroneously think there’s no global warming going on.”

The Leibniz study, co-written by Noel Keenlyside, a research scientist at the institute, will be published in the May 1 issue of the journal Nature.

“If we don’t experience warming over the next 10 years, it doesn’t mean that greenhouse-gas warming is not with us,” Keenlyside said in an interview. “There can be natural fluctuations that may mask climate change in the short term.”

Wood and Keenlyside aren’t even talking about the PDO, just the measly AMO. For an historical example where natural fluctuations probably really did “mask climate change in the short term,” the PDO is the place to look.

Here is a comparison of JISAO’s PDO index (red) with the HadCRUT3 temperature record (black):

If ocean oscillations are as powerful a climate driver as the anti-CO2 alarmists claim then this graph suggests a simple story: that cold Pacific surface waters swallowed up a big gulp of warmth from 1940-1970, which the PDO then belched back up during its warm-phase in the 80s and 90s. Without the PDO there might well not have been a 40s-70s temperature dip, making warming over the 20th century much more even.

Is the PDO really this influential, or is it largely coincidence that the PDO was in a cool phase when GMAST dipped a couple of tenths between 1940 and 1970? Without good heat content data it is very hard to gauge but logically there is no upper bound on how powerful an effect ocean oscillations can have. As Jo Nova describes meteorologist William Kininmonth’s “deep cold abyss,” the ocean depths form a great pool of “stored coldness” which is “periodically unleashed on the surface temperatures,” a slumbering dragon that with a flick of its tail can grab away large amounts of surface warmth. Thus we certainly can’t rule out that on time scales of up to decades GMAST really is dominated by ocean oscillations.

The CO2-warming theory needs to invoke ocean oscillations more than the solar theory does

Both have the same difficulty with the 40s-70s dip in temperature. For either theory to work the mid-20th century cooling pretty much has to be explained by ocean oscillations, but the CO2 theory now has to rely on the short-term dominance of ocean oscillations to explain the lack of recent warming as well.

That’s the point of Trenberth’s “missing heat,” right? By his calculations there must be lots of CO2-driven heat accumulating in the oceans. Set aside whether the real problem is with Trenberth’s measurements and calculations, the solar theory has no difficulty explaining why temperatures would be leveling off. With the sun having gone quiet this is the maximum likelihood solar projection (with cooling predicted to follow). It is the special case where GMAST actually tracks ocean heat content. Differences between GMAST and ocean heat are to be expected, but it is the CO2 theory that now needs to invoke that likely divergence from maximum liklihood.

Obviously it is not tenable to reject the ocean oscillation argument when applied to the solar theory but accept in when applied to CO2, but this is what the consensus scientists are effectively doing.

Gavin Schmidt on the asymptotic approach to equilibrium

Dr. Muscheler and I almost got to the ocean oscillations question way back in 2005, but Gavin Schmidt grabbed the hand-off. Raimund had claimed in a RealClimate post that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming:

Regardless of any discussion about solar irradiance in past centuries, the sunspot record and neutron monitor data (which can be compared with radionuclide records) show that solar activity has not increased since the 1950s and is therefore unlikely to be able to explain the recent warming.

I objected in the comments that:

What matters is not the trend in solar activity but the level. It does not have to KEEP going up to be a possible cause of warming. It just has to be high, and it has been since the forties.

Presumably you are looking at the modest drop in temperature in the fifties and sixties as inconsistent with a simple solar warming explanation, but it doesn’t have to be simple. Earth has heat sinks that could lead to measured effects being delayed.

Gavin Schmidt’s response was similar to Muscheler’s today, but Schmidt was explicit about what the process of equilibration should look like:

Response: You are correct in that you would expect a lag, however, the response to an increase to a steady level of forcing is a lagged increase in temperature and then a asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium. This is not what is seen. In fact, the rate of temperature increase is rising, and that is only compatible with a continuing increase in the forcing, i.e. from greenhouse gases. – gavin

Like Muscheler, Schmidt ignores the PDO. It is ocean heat content that should undergo an “asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium,” but all Schneider has to go by is GMAST, so he is implicity assuming that ocean heat content is faithfully tracked by GMAST, regardless of the fact that this relationship can be profoundly obscured by ocean oscillations.

We know that GMAST underwent a substantial mid-century gyration where 20th century warming actually reversed for a couple of decades before accelerated upwards again but we do NOT know that ocean heat content underwent any such gyration. Schmidt assumes it did but the PDO record suggests that it likely did not, in which case Schmidt’s argument that late-century warming must have been caused by CO2 collapses.

The problem is the hidden nature of these ocean-equilibration assumptions

If Schmidt and Muscheler want to dismiss a solar explanation for late 20th century warming by invoking the highly speculative assumption that GMAST is a good proxy for ocean heat content over with the 20th century, that fine. As long as this assumption is made explicit then others can evaluate it and toss any following conclusions in the trash. The problem is that the consensus scientists are not telling the public their real grounds for dismissing a solar explanation.

The consensus position, re-iterated over and over again, is a simple unqualified statement that because solar activity was not going up over the second half of the 20th century it cannot have caused warming over this period (or is unlikely to have caused warming over this period). I have collected a dozen such statements from scientific papers, news articles, and most recently from the First Order Draft of AR5.

Only when I have pressed these scientists on the irrationality of their claim that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming do they start hinting towards the highly speculative arguments about ocean equilibration that are the actual basis for their dismissal of the solar hypothesis. Reliance on such hidden assumptions is not science, so job one is to get these unstated assumptions out in the open where they can properly evaluated. Not surprisingly, unscrutinized assumptions do not stand up well to scrutiny, so job two is knocking ’em down.

The rapid equilibrium assumptions of Lockwood and Solanki, knocked down. The implicit assumption by Muscheler and Schmidt that GMAST should track ocean heat content with no major divergence now knocked down as well. It is a weak argument at best, requiring strong claims about matters of vast uncertainty, wrecking any pretension to have ruled out a solar driver for late 20th century warming.

Until these hidden assumptions are stated I suggest that we all take at face value the positions that these scientists actually assert. When they say that because a high level of forcing was relatively constant it is unlikely to have caused warming, we should say that they think you can’t heat a pot of water by turning the flame to maximum and leaving it there, because that is exactly what they are saying.

Then when they come back with their “what I really meant was,” we can expose their real thinking for the unexamined nonsense it is.

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Noelene
October 19, 2012 10:14 pm

TBear
Isn’t using unlikely the same as using may or may not?Climate scientists always use may or likely or unlikely,then the media presents it as “climate scientist finds world will warm by 2 degrees over 50 years”or some such equivalent.

tallbloke
October 19, 2012 11:04 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
October 19, 2012 at 5:33 pm
tallbloke says:
October 19, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Some experts don’t go along with it:
You are way behind the curve by citing old obsolete papers.
At the 2nd SSN workshop in Brussels, Mursula had seen the error of his ways and changed the title of his talk to “From Saulus to Paulus”. If you are in doubt what this means you can find your own way to Damascus by studying the Bible a bit (Acts 9:3–9).
The paper is three years old, and a two to one majority of the authors still disagree with your extrapolation method. You have been unusually quiet about the outcome of the more recent meetings where you’ve been putting your hypothesis forward.
tallbloke says:
October 19, 2012 at 3:10 pm
Alec Rawls is quite right. Historically high levels of solar forcing sustained over decades are perfectly adequate to explain increasing OHC
As well as the high temperatures in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Which temperature dataset are you referring to?

tallbloke
October 19, 2012 11:14 pm

By The way Leif:
Google: No results found for Mursula “From Saulus to Paulus”.
Google about 287 results found for Mursula “Does sunspot number calibration by the “magnetic needle” make sense?”

tallbloke
October 19, 2012 11:39 pm

Alec Rawls said:
Wood and Keenlyside aren’t even talking about the PDO, just the measly AMO. For an historical example where natural fluctuations probably really did “mask climate change in the short term,” the PDO is the place to look….cold Pacific surface waters swallowed up a big gulp of warmth from 1940-1970, which the PDO then belched back up during its warm-phase in the 80s and 90s.

Hi Alec.
The “belching up” certainly raises the amospheric temperature during el nino events, but as you know, it’s the ocean heat content which is the underlying driver of longer term surface temperature changes. As Bob Tisdale has found, the OHC and SST of a large area of the Pacific has been stable over the last thirty years. It is the north Atlantic which has gained lots of OHC and has had the most elevated SST which best matches the global trend since 1970. As well as the PDO, the AMO also dropped from the 1940s to 1970s and rose from there to the early 2000s. It may well be that energy from the Pacific has been making its way round to the north Atlantic on its way to the Arctic. For this reason, the AMO’s contribution to ‘global warming’ is not “measly”.
If you take a look at the components of my model in the upper pane of:
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/sst-model1.png
You’ll see I actually found the best correlation in the lower pane (R^2=0.874 for monthly data from 1876) between the model and SSTs when the AMO component is a good deal bigger than the SOI (ENSO proxy) component. Some of that may be due to Atlantic-centric historical SSTs, but you shouldn’t discount the AMO.
The ‘ssnc’ component is the cumulative count (integration) of sunspot numbers either side of the ocean equilibrium value of 40ssn I empirically determined from sst. It is also the average monthly sunspot number from the start of the SIDC record in 1750. If this is accepted as a reasonable looking proxy for ocean heat content which matches the instrumental OHC record pretty well, then no ‘lag’ is needed to explain the solar effect on OHC and thus global surface temperature.
Cheers
TB.

October 19, 2012 11:44 pm

Tbear writes “He said `unlikely’. (qualified) …You said `can’t’. (unqualified)… There is all the world of difference.”
So if I said turning the gas onto a particular constant setting thought to be high, warmed up the pot and you said it was “unlikely” that the gas setting was warming the pot because it was constant then that is an acceptable use of “unlikely”?
Maybe you cant see it, but its pretty clear to me that the implication is a very strong one that equilibrium must be reached quickly for that statement to be valid.

John F. Hultquist
October 19, 2012 11:48 pm

Michael says:
October 19, 2012 at 10:03 pm
“News Flash:
Ted Turner donates $1 billion to the UN.

First, this if off-topic. Second, it was announced in 1997.
News Flash, indeed. Did’ya just wake up, Rip!

October 19, 2012 11:53 pm

Google about 287 results found for Mursula “Does sunspot number calibration by the “magnetic needle” make sense?”
There is lots of work trying to trim the post 1945 SSN records which is probably correct, but no effort is made to check the pre 1840 numbers where Wolf made wholesale adjustments to the record based on the magnetic needle. SC5 was eventually over written when more data became available but considering the gap between the early GSN values it would be prudent to revisit the pre 1840 Wolf numbers. The is more inconsistencies in the geomagnetic data than the sunspot record in my opinion.
Do you think Leif would be pushing for this?….not likely.

Chris Schoneveld
October 20, 2012 12:15 am

Leif says: Anyway, the issue will be decided by the Sun in a couple of years, so the whining will automatically stop.
Should read: Anyway, the issue will be decided by the Sun in a couple of years, so my whining and self righteous criticising of everybody and everything on WUWT will automatically stop.

Matt
October 20, 2012 12:45 am

Well, if you had added emphasis to “unlikely” as well, you would have saved yourself from writing this article; and therefore this is most certainly not ‘unconditional’, as you suggest.

October 20, 2012 2:08 am

vukcevic says: October 19, 2012 at 2:54 pm
Your own 300 year long sunspot data (as well as those of Wang, Lean, and Sheeley)
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/TMC.htm
Leif Svalgaard says: October 19, 2012 at 5:33 pm
As I have shown you many times, the correlation is completely spurious.
…………………………..
No you have not, not many, not twice, not even once.
Just repeating the mantra :
As I have shown you many times, the correlation is completely spurious. may convince some,
but to assert that scientists from JPL and the Universite Paris Diderot and Institut de Physique du Globe :
do not know what they are talking about here
will not make any difference to the fact that
Sun is the major factor in number of the Earth’s events
geological changes http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/SSN-NAP.htm
magnetic field variability http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/TMC.htm
and ultimately temperature variability http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/EarthNV.htm
In none of the above (mutualy related and for the climate fundamental relationships) you even attempted to prove, let alone proved that correlation is spurious. One might say ‘too many spurious correlations for the comfort’ of those who maintain no it is not the sun.
Exploring nature is lot of fun, negating of nature is a nightmare
but you know that anyway.

October 20, 2012 2:22 am

tallbloke says:
October 19, 2012 at 11:04 pm
You have been unusually quiet about the outcome of the more recent meetings where you’ve been putting your hypothesis forward.
Hardly, perhaps you should consult our Wiki: http://ssnworkshop.wikia.com/wiki/Home
I have been touring the world giving seminars on the results of the recent meetings, e.g. at the High Altitude Observatory in Boulder, at the http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/ Space Weather Prediction Center in Boulder, Colorado, at the IAU Symposium 286 in Mendoza, Argentina, and on Monday at the TIEMS Conference in Osla, Norway, e.g.
http://www.leif.org/research/HAO-Seminar,%20How%20Well%20Do%20We%20Know%20the%20SSN.pdf
tallbloke says:
October 19, 2012 at 11:14 pm
Google: No results found for Mursula “From Saulus to Paulus”.
I think what broke Mursula on this was the demonstration by Cnossens et al.
http://www.leif.org/EOS/2012JA017555.pdf “The dependence of the coupled magnetosphere-ionosphere-thermosphere system on the Earth’s magnetic dipole moment”
“[38] We also estimate changes in the Sq amplitude from 1910 to 2010 based on the scaling relations we found. This gives increases of 2.0–2.4, 3.0–4.7, and 1.3–2.0 nT, or 7.2–9.2, 6.2–6.8, and 6.3–6.8% in the northward, eastward, and downward Sq amplitude components, respectively. These values are slightly larger than the average upward trend of 1.3 nT/century reported by Macmillan and Droujinina [2007] or the 2.45 nT/century increase in the eastward component reported by Svalgaard [2009], but smaller than
the trends of 4.8–8 nT/century reported by Elias et al. [2010]. Bearing in mind that actual trends are likely to vary from place to place, it appears that changes in dipole moment could make a significant contribution to long-term changes in Sq amplitude.
[39] Svalgaard [2009] noted that in particular the eastward component of the daily Sq variation is a useful indicator of solar activity, and may be used as a tool to calibrate the long-term sunspot number record. Clearly, if geomagnetic data are to be used in this way, the effects of the decreasing dipole moment on Sq variation must be considered and corrected for.”
That the increase in rY is expected and must be corrected for as I suggested. In the end, this doesn’t really matter, as the final analysis does not rely on the increase in rY.
Geoff Sharp says:
October 19, 2012 at 11:53 pm
it would be prudent to revisit the pre 1840 Wolf numbers. […]
Do you think Leif would be pushing for this?….not likely.

http://ssnworkshop.wikia.com/wiki/3rd_SSN_Workshop
I am pushing for this to be the topic for the 3rd SSN workshop in Tucson in January, 2013:
“The primary goal of this workshop is to extend the reconciled SSN time series back from Schwabe (1826) through Staudach (1750).”

October 20, 2012 2:46 am

By accident, I was watching a docco that showed a couple of Soviet H-bomb explosions. In one of them (perhaps their first H not A), the sky was overcast before the blast. As something spread radially, whether it was a shock wave, the air temperature or ionised particles or ???, the sky very rapidly became clear, layer by layer starting from the lowest.
So, tomorrow will be a fun day at the monitor, looking at as many nuclear explosions as I can find on videos. They might not tell me if the cloud disappearing was related to ionising radiation, but heck, this is one way that new theories can start to be confirmed. No need for the CIA to be alerted to my downloads.
(For those who argue that the radiation produces clouds, I’ll simply play the footage in reverse.)

October 20, 2012 2:47 am

Geoff Sharp says: October 19, 2012 at 11:53 pm
The is more inconsistencies in the geomagnetic data than the sunspot record in my opinion.
You are absolutely right there. There is a ‘ripple’ on the Earth’s magnetic field which is assumed to be associated with the ‘differential rotation’ of the liquid Earth’s core in respect of the crust (you can google it), which is nothing to do with sunspot activity. See the very first sentence in: http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/EarthNV.htm
Only place where magnetic needle would accurately follow (long term solar activity) is the Antarctic, the Arctic has bifurcated magnetic structure http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/data/mag_maps/browse/D_map_mf_2010_large.jpeg
due to the presence of two large continental masses, so any records from general area of the N. Hemisphere would not be representative, as it can be clearly seen from the geomagnetic distribution
Dr. Svalgaard is well aware of the all above.

October 20, 2012 3:16 am

vukcevic says:
October 20, 2012 at 2:08 am
“As I have shown you many times, the correlation is completely spurious.”
No you have not, not many, not twice, not even once.

You have poor memory. The spurious character comes from the special picking of the South Pole as something important in this connection and from the wrong assertion that the interplanetary magnetic field [coming from the sun] is changing the Earth’s magnetic field generated in the core 3000 km beneath the surface. Apart from the absurdness stemming from the fact that the solar field is 100,000 times smaller than the core field, the conductivity of the upper mantle is high enough to screen the core from any electromagnetic external influence. The use of obsolete datasets amplify your problem. You have to demonstrate that scientists you mention from Universite Paris Diderot and Institut de Physique du Globe have suggested that there is a solar influence on the core. This you have not done, so do that first.

October 20, 2012 3:25 am

vukcevic says:
October 20, 2012 at 2:47 am
Only place where magnetic needle would accurately follow (long term solar activity)
You are confusing the issues [shows how dangerous a little knowledge can be]. The ‘magnetic needle’ issue has to do with something that happens all over the dayside Earth, every day, as we speak. You can see the variation of the ‘needle’ here http://hirweb.nict.go.jp/dimages/magneka/20121019.html
The variations you see in that plot are the result of currents in the ionosphere 110 km up. Those currents are caused by the ionization created by solar far UV which is a good measure of solar activity. So in that way we can directly see the effect of solar activity on the magnetic needle. This was discovered way back in 1722 by George Graham in London. And we know the detailed physics that makes all this work.

tallbloke
October 20, 2012 3:54 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
October 20, 2012 at 3:16 am
vukcevic says:
October 20, 2012 at 2:08 am
You have to demonstrate that scientists you mention from Universite Paris Diderot and Institut de Physique du Globe have suggested that there is a solar influence on the core. This you have not done, so do that first.

Why would Vuk need to find confirmation from the scientists rather than their data?
This tells us everything we need to know about your attitude to independent researchers.

tallbloke
October 20, 2012 4:02 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
October 20, 2012 at 3:16 am
vukcevic says:
October 20, 2012 at 2:08 am
Apart from the absurdness stemming from the fact that the solar field is 100,000 times smaller than the core field, the conductivity of the upper mantle is high enough to screen the core from any electromagnetic external influence.

The answer to this conundrum is that the same forces are acting on the Sun as the Earth. Both their magnetic fields are being influenced by the rest of the solar system.
As usual you are trying to deny connections by saying that there is no possible mechanism. But the strength of the correlations is such that the chance of accidental coincidence is so vanishingly small the only explanation in the absence of a direct causal link between the two is that both phenomena are linked to a third which is affecting them both.
This is why we also find a strong correlation between changes in the Earth’s length of day and the motion of the Sun wrt the centre of mass of the solar system.
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/ssb-z-lod-temp.jpg

October 20, 2012 4:06 am

Leif Svalgaard says: October 20, 2012 at 3:16 am
Apart from the absurdness stemming from the fact that the solar field is 100,000 times smaller than the core field, the conductivity of the upper mantle is high enough to screen the core from any electromagnetic external influence.
Nop ! You are misleading the uninformed.
Geomagnetic storms regularly shift vertical magnetic component up to 1% and horizontal as as much as 5% or the total field (z^2+ h^2)^0.5, in the northern latitudes
(Tromso).
Graph four in
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/TMC.htm
shows that change in the Antarctic magnetic field on century scale are of order of 1-2% which is commensurate with changes in Z component frequently induced by geomagnetic storms.
If you are suggesting that GM storms induction doesn’t propagates from outer layers down to the inner one, then you are promoting the alternative ‘the common planetary factor in driving synchronously changes in both the solar and the earth’s magnetic changes’ (?!), and that would be LOL.
Either way, till now you have disproved nothing.

October 20, 2012 4:33 am

tallbloke says:
October 20, 2012 at 3:54 am
Why would Vuk need to find confirmation from the scientists rather than their data?
Vuk claimed that the scientists made some statements [so it is not about their data]. I ask him to confirm that they indeed made the statements he claimed they made.
This tells us everything we need to know about your attitude to independent researchers
Vuk, like you, is not a ‘researcher’ in any true sense of that word.

Editor
October 20, 2012 4:35 am

Geoff Sharp says: “Incorrect. The warm water in the NW pacific characteristic of a neg PDO is able to migrate south and influence the Walker Circulation pump and hence ENSO.”
That’s about the most vague statement I’ve ever seen on this topic.
You described southward migrations of warm water (I’m assuming in the western North Pacific based on your very limited description). Are you aware that the general current flow is from south to north in the western North Pacific? The western boundary current there is called the Kuroshio Current, and it is quite strong. Therefore, are you sure you weren’t seeing weather-caused variations in sea surface temperatures and mistook that for southward migration against the flow?
It would also be helpful if you’d call the areas by their proper names. With “warm water in the NW pacific characteristic of a neg PDO”, are you referring to the Kuroshio-Oyashio Extension, aka the KOE? The reason I ask: The sea surface temperatures of the Kuroshio-Oyashio Extension are a major component of the PDO, this has been known for years. Refer to Schneider and Cornuelle (2005) for confirmation:
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI3527.1
They write in their abstract:
“The Pacific decadal oscillation (PDO), defined as the leading empirical orthogonal function of North Pacific sea surface temperature anomalies, is a widely used index for decadal variability. It is shown that the PDO can be recovered from a reconstruction of North Pacific sea surface temperature anomalies based on a first-order autoregressive model and forcing by variability of the Aleutian low, El Niño Southern Oscillation (ENSO), and oceanic zonal advection anomalies in the Kuroshio–Oyashio Extension. The latter results from oceanic Rossby waves that are forced by North Pacific Ekman pumping.”
And they conclude with:
“These results support the hypothesis that the PDO is not a dynamical mode, but arises from the superposition of sea surface temperature fluctuations with different dynamical origins.”
Therefore, it would appear you have cause and effect backwards. A negative PDO is a characteristic of a warm Kuroshio-Oyashio Extension—along with ENSO and North Pacific sea level pressure—not vice versa as you stated.

tallbloke
October 20, 2012 4:41 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
October 20, 2012 at 2:22 am
I think what broke Mursula on this was the demonstration by Cnossens et al.
http://www.leif.org/EOS/2012JA017555.pdf “The dependence of the coupled magnetosphere-ionosphere-thermosphere system on the Earth’s magnetic dipole moment”
“[38] We also estimate changes in the Sq amplitude from 1910 to 2010 based on the scaling relations we found. This gives increases of 2.0–2.4, 3.0–4.7, and 1.3–2.0 nT, or 7.2–9.2, 6.2–6.8, and 6.3–6.8% in the northward, eastward, and downward Sq amplitude components, respectively. These values are slightly larger than the average upward trend of 1.3 nT/century reported by Macmillan and Droujinina [2007] or the 2.45 nT/century increase in the eastward component reported by Svalgaard [2009], but smaller than
the trends of 4.8–8 nT/century reported by Elias et al. [2010]. Bearing in mind that actual trends are likely to vary from place to place, it appears that changes in dipole moment could make a significant contribution to long-term changes in Sq amplitude.
[39] Svalgaard [2009] noted that in particular the eastward component of the daily Sq variation is a useful indicator of solar activity, and may be used as a tool to calibrate the long-term sunspot number record. Clearly, if geomagnetic data are to be used in this way, the effects of the decreasing dipole moment on Sq variation must be considered and corrected for.”

Yes Leif. But, if the Earth’s magnetic dipole moment is itself varying proportionally in anticorrelation to heliomagnetic changes, then this is going to affect both the trend and magnitude you are trying to correct from a linear baseline which doesn’t exist, isn’t it?

October 20, 2012 4:45 am

vukcevic says:
October 20, 2012 at 4:06 am
Geomagnetic storms regularly shift vertical magnetic component up to 1% and horizontal as as much as 5% or the total field (z^2+ h^2)^0.5, in the northern latitudes
Informing the uninformed: those changes are observed at the surface and are temporary [lasts about a day] changes in the magnetosphere tens of thousands of km away. They have nothing to do with the core field.
If you are suggesting that GM storms induction doesn’t propagates from outer layers down to the inner one
They don’t make it further down than a few hundred km and are gone in a few days after the storm, which is why your correlations are spurious.
Either way, till now you have disproved nothing.
no need to disprove something that is not even wrong.
tallbloke says:
October 20, 2012 at 4:02 am
But the strength of the correlations is such that the chance of accidental coincidence is so vanishingly small
this is precisely the point. The correlations are too poor to be considered seriously. They are totally in the eyes of the true believers, nothing more. If they were compelling and persuasive, I would one of the first to embrace them, but they, unfortunately are not. The mechanism is not needed for this if the correlation is compelling. A mechanism can be a help if the correlation is weak.

tallbloke
October 20, 2012 4:47 am

vukcevic says:
October 20, 2012 at 4:06 am
Leif Svalgaard says: October 20, 2012 at 3:16 am
Apart from the absurdness stemming from the fact that the solar field is 100,000 times smaller than the core field, the conductivity of the upper mantle is high enough to screen the core from any electromagnetic external influence.
If you are suggesting that GM storms induction doesn’t propagates from outer layers down to the inner one, then you are promoting the alternative ‘the common planetary factor in driving synchronously changes in both the solar and the earth’s magnetic changes’ (?!), and that would be LOL.

It’s certainly a LOL that Leif is painting himself into a corner where he is forcing himself to the position which agrees with our Planetary-Solar theory, which has plenty of other evidence to support it anyway, (see my example of the LOD-SSB relation above).

Editor
October 20, 2012 4:48 am

Geoff Sharp says: “It has been shown that the PDO SST spatial patterns and pressure pattern changes influence ENSO especially over the last 3 years, the influence of the Aleutian Low on the PDO metrics is also interesting.”
Refer to my above reply to you, especially the quotes from Schneider and Cornuelle (2005).
Geoff Sharp says: “We could that, but then we would ask why do we have 30 year periods of more La Niña and vice versa.”
Obviously you are not aware that the decadal variability of ENSO is not in synch with the PDO:
http://i56.tinypic.com/rw01ox.jpg
The graph is from this post:
http://bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/yet-even-more-discussions-about-the-pacific-decadal-oscillation-pdo/
The reasons for the differences are of course due to the influence of sea level pressure on the PDO.

Robert of Ottawa
October 20, 2012 5:12 am

Charles Nelson, the scientific term for the BS you list is “epicycles”