Guest post by Alec Rawls
Technically Dr. Muscheler is asking me to retract the title of my post, “Raimund Muscheler says that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming“:
I am sure that you are aware of the fact that the title is wrong. I never said that steady high levels of forcing can’t cause warming.
He most certainly did. Here is the sentence of Muscheler’s that I was paraphrasing (with emphasis added):
Solar activity & cosmic rays were relatively constant (high solar activity, strong shielding and low cosmic rays) in the second part of the 20th century and, therefore, it is unlikely that solar activity (whatever process) was involved in causing the warming since 1970.
This is an unconditional statement: the high solar activity of the second half of the century can’t have caused warming because it was “relatively constant.” If Dr. Muscheler wants a retraction he’s going to have to issue it himself, and that actually seems to be what is going on here.
Raimund now rejects the claim that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming. Good. But then on what grounds can he dismiss a solar explanation for late 20th century warming?
His email offers a new rationale. Muscheler thinks the lack of warming from the 40s to the 70s vitiates the solar-warming hypothesis:
My point is rather nicely illustrated in the attached figure [at the top of the post]. It shows the sunspot data and temperature anomalies over the last 160 years (annual data and 11-yr average). It shows the high solar activity I was mentioning.
According to your reasoning one would expect a steady warming since 1950. However, the temperatures were rather constant from 1940 to 1970. Furthermore, the temperature and solar trends are opposite during the last 30 years. So I think one would have to invoke a very strange climate delay effect in order to explain the recent warming with solar forcing.
I would be happy if you could correct the title and add this clarification to your post.
Best wishes,
Raimund
There are a couple of points one can quibble with here:
1) Muscheler again invokes “opposite trends,” as if it is the trend in solar activity, not the level, that would be driving temperature.
2) Those trends have not been “opposite for 30 years.” Solar cycle 22, which ran from 1986-1996, had the same sunspot numbers as cycle 21 but was more intense by pretty much every other measure.
3) Muscheler seems to be asserting that temperature has been rising for the last 30 years when it has been roughly flat for the past 15 years (a fact that presents problems for Muscheler’s preferred CO2-warming theory, but is perfectly compatible with the solar-warming theory, after cycle 23 slowed down and dropped off a cliff).
But set those quibbles aside. What is interesting here is Muscheler’s new argument that if the sun had caused late 20th century warming then the planet should have warmed steadily since 1950.
My reply:
Actually, I would say that warming should have been steady since the 1920’s, but that is only if we are looking at the heat content of the oceans (where almost the entire heat content of the climatosphere resides). Unfortunately, we don’t have good ocean heat content data for this period, while the data we do have–global mean atmospheric surface temperature–is dominated by ocean oscillations.
You suggest that it would take some very strange lags for warming from the 40s to the 70s to not show up until later, but would this actually be strange? Doesn’t it fit with what we KNOW: that the cool 40s-70’s period coincided with a cool-phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation?
Ocean oscillations are widely acknowledged to be the dominant short term driver of global temperature
Just look at what the CO2 alarmists say as soon as their predicted warming fails to show up (April 2008):
Parts of North America and Europe may cool naturally over the next decade, as shifting ocean currents temporarily blunt the global-warming effect caused by mankind, Germany’s Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences said. …
“Those natural climate variations could be stronger than the global-warming trend over the next 10-year period,” Wood said in an interview. “Without knowing that, you might erroneously think there’s no global warming going on.”
The Leibniz study, co-written by Noel Keenlyside, a research scientist at the institute, will be published in the May 1 issue of the journal Nature.
“If we don’t experience warming over the next 10 years, it doesn’t mean that greenhouse-gas warming is not with us,” Keenlyside said in an interview. “There can be natural fluctuations that may mask climate change in the short term.”
Wood and Keenlyside aren’t even talking about the PDO, just the measly AMO. For an historical example where natural fluctuations probably really did “mask climate change in the short term,” the PDO is the place to look.
Here is a comparison of JISAO’s PDO index (red) with the HadCRUT3 temperature record (black):
If ocean oscillations are as powerful a climate driver as the anti-CO2 alarmists claim then this graph suggests a simple story: that cold Pacific surface waters swallowed up a big gulp of warmth from 1940-1970, which the PDO then belched back up during its warm-phase in the 80s and 90s. Without the PDO there might well not have been a 40s-70s temperature dip, making warming over the 20th century much more even.
Is the PDO really this influential, or is it largely coincidence that the PDO was in a cool phase when GMAST dipped a couple of tenths between 1940 and 1970? Without good heat content data it is very hard to gauge but logically there is no upper bound on how powerful an effect ocean oscillations can have. As Jo Nova describes meteorologist William Kininmonth’s “deep cold abyss,” the ocean depths form a great pool of “stored coldness” which is “periodically unleashed on the surface temperatures,” a slumbering dragon that with a flick of its tail can grab away large amounts of surface warmth. Thus we certainly can’t rule out that on time scales of up to decades GMAST really is dominated by ocean oscillations.
The CO2-warming theory needs to invoke ocean oscillations more than the solar theory does
Both have the same difficulty with the 40s-70s dip in temperature. For either theory to work the mid-20th century cooling pretty much has to be explained by ocean oscillations, but the CO2 theory now has to rely on the short-term dominance of ocean oscillations to explain the lack of recent warming as well.
That’s the point of Trenberth’s “missing heat,” right? By his calculations there must be lots of CO2-driven heat accumulating in the oceans. Set aside whether the real problem is with Trenberth’s measurements and calculations, the solar theory has no difficulty explaining why temperatures would be leveling off. With the sun having gone quiet this is the maximum likelihood solar projection (with cooling predicted to follow). It is the special case where GMAST actually tracks ocean heat content. Differences between GMAST and ocean heat are to be expected, but it is the CO2 theory that now needs to invoke that likely divergence from maximum liklihood.
Obviously it is not tenable to reject the ocean oscillation argument when applied to the solar theory but accept in when applied to CO2, but this is what the consensus scientists are effectively doing.
Gavin Schmidt on the asymptotic approach to equilibrium
Dr. Muscheler and I almost got to the ocean oscillations question way back in 2005, but Gavin Schmidt grabbed the hand-off. Raimund had claimed in a RealClimate post that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming:
Regardless of any discussion about solar irradiance in past centuries, the sunspot record and neutron monitor data (which can be compared with radionuclide records) show that solar activity has not increased since the 1950s and is therefore unlikely to be able to explain the recent warming.
I objected in the comments that:
What matters is not the trend in solar activity but the level. It does not have to KEEP going up to be a possible cause of warming. It just has to be high, and it has been since the forties.
Presumably you are looking at the modest drop in temperature in the fifties and sixties as inconsistent with a simple solar warming explanation, but it doesn’t have to be simple. Earth has heat sinks that could lead to measured effects being delayed.
Gavin Schmidt’s response was similar to Muscheler’s today, but Schmidt was explicit about what the process of equilibration should look like:
Response: You are correct in that you would expect a lag, however, the response to an increase to a steady level of forcing is a lagged increase in temperature and then a asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium. This is not what is seen. In fact, the rate of temperature increase is rising, and that is only compatible with a continuing increase in the forcing, i.e. from greenhouse gases. – gavin
Like Muscheler, Schmidt ignores the PDO. It is ocean heat content that should undergo an “asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium,” but all Schneider has to go by is GMAST, so he is implicity assuming that ocean heat content is faithfully tracked by GMAST, regardless of the fact that this relationship can be profoundly obscured by ocean oscillations.
We know that GMAST underwent a substantial mid-century gyration where 20th century warming actually reversed for a couple of decades before accelerated upwards again but we do NOT know that ocean heat content underwent any such gyration. Schmidt assumes it did but the PDO record suggests that it likely did not, in which case Schmidt’s argument that late-century warming must have been caused by CO2 collapses.
The problem is the hidden nature of these ocean-equilibration assumptions
If Schmidt and Muscheler want to dismiss a solar explanation for late 20th century warming by invoking the highly speculative assumption that GMAST is a good proxy for ocean heat content over with the 20th century, that fine. As long as this assumption is made explicit then others can evaluate it and toss any following conclusions in the trash. The problem is that the consensus scientists are not telling the public their real grounds for dismissing a solar explanation.
The consensus position, re-iterated over and over again, is a simple unqualified statement that because solar activity was not going up over the second half of the 20th century it cannot have caused warming over this period (or is unlikely to have caused warming over this period). I have collected a dozen such statements from scientific papers, news articles, and most recently from the First Order Draft of AR5.
Only when I have pressed these scientists on the irrationality of their claim that a steady high level of forcing can’t cause warming do they start hinting towards the highly speculative arguments about ocean equilibration that are the actual basis for their dismissal of the solar hypothesis. Reliance on such hidden assumptions is not science, so job one is to get these unstated assumptions out in the open where they can properly evaluated. Not surprisingly, unscrutinized assumptions do not stand up well to scrutiny, so job two is knocking ’em down.
The rapid equilibrium assumptions of Lockwood and Solanki, knocked down. The implicit assumption by Muscheler and Schmidt that GMAST should track ocean heat content with no major divergence now knocked down as well. It is a weak argument at best, requiring strong claims about matters of vast uncertainty, wrecking any pretension to have ruled out a solar driver for late 20th century warming.
Until these hidden assumptions are stated I suggest that we all take at face value the positions that these scientists actually assert. When they say that because a high level of forcing was relatively constant it is unlikely to have caused warming, we should say that they think you can’t heat a pot of water by turning the flame to maximum and leaving it there, because that is exactly what they are saying.
Then when they come back with their “what I really meant was,” we can expose their real thinking for the unexamined nonsense it is.
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thingadonta says: “When confronted with temperature lags and the PDO to account for T trends in the late 20th century, they squirm and backtrack.”
There is no mechanism through which the PDO can influence global temperature trends.
http://bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/yet-even-more-discussions-about-the-pacific-decadal-oscillation-pdo/
Regards
vukcevic says:
October 19, 2012 at 2:54 pm
“Jean Dickey does not know what she is talking about here. Did you ask her what process she would suggest?”
I suppose you do extend the compliment to her coautor: Dr. Olivier de Viron
If he would make the same silly suggested, indeed I would, but I doubt that he did.
also suggest that there is an (for some inconvenient) direct strong link between solar activity and the Earth’s magnetic field change.
As I have shown you many times, the correlation is completely spurious.
tallbloke says:
October 19, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Some experts don’t go along with it:
You are way behind the curve by citing old obsolete papers.
At the 2nd SSN workshop in Brussels, Mursula had seen the error of his ways and changed the title of his talk to “From Saulus to Paulus”. If you are in doubt what this means you can find your own way to Damascus by studying the Bible a bit (Acts 9:3–9).
tallbloke says:
October 19, 2012 at 3:10 pm
Alec Rawls is quite right. Historically high levels of solar forcing sustained over decades are perfectly adequate to explain increasing OHC
As well as the high temperatures in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Alec Rawls says:
October 19, 2012 at 4:13 pm
You have done this, what, three times now?
You have referred yourself to that, what, four times now. Perhaps it is time to stop that caroussel.
Global low levels clouds obviously disagree that the sun indirectly can’t be responsible for the post 1970’s warming.
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/6873/had3vlowcloudvsolar2.png
Taking the period shown on the graph no warming is detected overall when the influence of cloud albedo is removed. This is also based on the most modest affect observed on global temperatures cloud albedo has. The decline in sun spots with the cloud albedo influence removed is quite telling too with about a 10 year lag. ( almost one short sun cycle)
Since recent years global cloud albedo has stopped declining it is no coincidence that global temperatures are failing to warm and in fact cooling. With these global low cloud levels not declining any more future El Nino’s will not be-able to become any stronger than over the recent period. Without future stronger El Nino’s global temperatures won’t rise and the further confirmation what we already know that CO2 is not driving climate.
HAVE TO LAUGH! THINK ABOUT THIS!
Back in the past when all those dire predictions about the coming doom of CAGW were made — if those scientists (I use the term loosely in their case) had then the data we have now — WOULD THOSE PREDICTIONS HAVE EVER BEEN MADE?
It was all based on the inevitable parallel rise of CO2 levels and global temperature. And all the data we have now quite obviously says that temperature does not rise in lockstep with rising CO2!
The muddy data we have today would have blinded their all knowing inner eye! They never would have come up with such a ludicrous conclusion!
So to put it another way — if CAGW had not been invented back in those data poor years — IT NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN INVENTED!
So to sum up CAGW — its cause can best be described as a case of — THE WRONG PEOPLE, IN THE WRONG PLACE, AT THE WRONG TIME!
Eugene WR Gallun
Bob Tisdale says:
October 19, 2012 at 5:21 pm
Since the PDO is an aftereffect of ENSO, you’ll need to revise this.
This is purely your own opinion. Recent data suggests otherwise. But which is the egg or chicken is irrelevant, the PDO index is a reliable indicator of the equatorial ocean heat exchange with the atmosphere….end of story.
Bob Tisdale says:
October 19, 2012 at 5:23 pm
—then it would be best to use an ENSO index.
We could that, but then we would ask why do we have 30 year periods of more La Niña and vice versa. It has been shown that the PDO SST spatial patterns and pressure pattern changes influence ENSO especially over the last 3 years, the influence of the Aleutian Low on the PDO metrics is also interesting.
Have a good day.
Alec Rawls, your overall point is valid, but the graph linked as the top figure in this post is outright misleading on the period from the 1960s onwards. It is so crafted to be misleading there that it likely may have come from a CAGW-movement source like skepticalscience. It uses fudged temperature data from the dishonest CRU of Climategate infamy. That is combined with a misleading form of rolling average on the sunspot numbers which is out of sync in timing, which creates the false illusion of solar activity decline since 1985 in opposition to temperature trends since then. But such is in contrast to how actually solar cycle 22 (1986 to 1996) was of particularly high activity and just as high as cycle 21 of 1976-1986 before it.
The following graph uses part of that same plot but corrects it, removing what is misleading and adding other data, to show how solar activity much better relates to temperatures (depicting global sea surface temperatures) in the past several decades without those falsehoods:
http://s10.postimage.org/z7wcdc56x/suntemp.jpg
As suggested in the above graph (which the reader is very encouraged to click on and click to enlarge if it does not display full size at first):
The global cooling scare occurred when solar activity had a downturn with cycle 20 (of 1964 to 1976). There was actually substantial global cooling then, just mostly gone in fudged revisionist temperature data like that of CRU. The two solar cycles from 1976 to 1996 had a stronger solar magnetic field with more GCR deflection leading to 3% less average cosmic ray flux, fewer shading clouds, and the global warming scare. Then, in the late 1990s, Earth’s albedo trend and the trend in cloud cover changed when solar activity declined (less GCR deflection), and, after the 1998 El Nino, relative temperatures from then on have been flat to cooling.
Although of course the CAGW movement has revised both subsequently, non-fudged solar and temperature data gave results like this before revisionism:
http://www.appinsys.com/globalwarming/GW_Part6_SolarEvidence_files/image023.gif
—————————————————————-
Specific data and references for my first graph:
Solar cycle 20: October 1964 to June 1976 = 6180.84 average measured neutron count
Solar cycle 21: June 1976 to September 1986 = 5991.43 average measured neutron count
(where cycle 21 had increased solar activity deflecting more cosmic rays, with 3% less reaching Earth in terms of neutron count, reducing the amount of shading clouds formed, causing more warming)
Solar cycle 22: September 1986 to May 1996 = 5991.56 average measured neutron count
Solar cycle 23: May 1996 to December 2008 = 6213.57 average measured neutron count
Cosmic ray neutron count figures for those four cycles:
http://cosmicrays.oulu.fi/webform/query.cgi?startday=01&startmonth=10&startyear=1964&starttime=00%3A00&endday=01&endmonth=06&endyear=1976&endtime=00%3A00&resolution=Automatic+choice&picture=on
http://cosmicrays.oulu.fi/webform/query.cgi?startday=01&startmonth=06&startyear=1976&starttime=00%3A00&endday=01&endmonth=09&endyear=1986&endtime=00%3A00&resolution=Automatic+choice&picture=on
http://cosmicrays.oulu.fi/webform/query.cgi?startday=01&startmonth=09&startyear=1986&starttime=00%3A00&endday=01&endmonth=05&endyear=1996&endtime=00%3A00&resolution=Automatic+choice&picture=on
http://cosmicrays.oulu.fi/webform/query.cgi?startday=01&startmonth=05&startyear=1996&starttime=00%3A00&endday=01&endmonth=12&endyear=2008&endtime=00%3A00&resolution=Automatic+choice&picture=on
Temperature trends:
The decline in relative temperatures over the 1998-2008 period (and beyond):
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1998/to:2008.99/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1998/to:2008.99/trend
Warming before then:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1964/to:1998/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1964/to:1998/trend
In combination, the preceding data makes the graph linked early in this post.
Such ended up using untrustworthy temperature data too, just out of convenience for what is uploaded at the plotting tools at woodfortrees.org , but CRU fudged their HADSST2 ocean surface temperatures relatively less than what they could get away with on land data with the aid of UHI skewing.
Bob Tisdale says:
October 19, 2012 at 5:27 pm
There is no mechanism through which the PDO can influence global temperature trends.
Incorrect. The warm water in the NW pacific characteristic of a neg PDO is able to migrate south and influence the Walker Circulation pump and hence ENSO.
Geoff Sharp says:
October 19, 2012 at 4:48 pm
There are many areas in this presentation that have contradicting evidence from experts in the field.
Well, I am an expert in the field, and in any endeavor there are leaders, followers, and people that should just get out of the way. Those stragglers, whom you like to refer to, are getting fewer and fewer as evidence is piling up as we move further into the cycle. One of the mistakes these people make is to look at the strongest fields and largest spots, while the evidence is that it are the smallest spots that are disappearing. This is like looking for lost keys under the lamppost because the light is better there. Anyway, the issue will be decided bu the Sun in a couple of years, so the whining will automatically stop.
The words “Climate Change”, are simply a Dialectic Mind Freek Magic Trick Word Game they’re Playing on us.
You do realize that don’t you? You’re not that stupid.
It’s a form of psychological manipulation, hidden meanings and hidden agendas contained within simple words and phrases. Many UN program agendas are labeled with comforting sounding names to get us to do what they want, especially when it’s not really good for us.
dialectic (Merriam-Webster)
1: logic 1a(1)
2: a: discussion and reasoning by dialogue as a method of intellectual investigation; specifically : the Socratic techniques of exposing false beliefs and eliciting truth
b: the Platonic investigation of the eternal ideas
3: the logic of fallacy
4: a: the Hegelian process of change in which a concept or its realization passes over into and is preserved and fulfilled by its opposite; also : the critical investigation of this process
b: (1) usually plural but singular or plural in construction : development through the stages of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis in accordance with the laws of dialectical materialism (2) : the investigation of this process (3) : the theoretical application of this process especially in the social sciences
5: usually plural but singular or plural in construction
a: any systematic reasoning, exposition, or argument that juxtaposes opposed or contradictory ideas and usually seeks to resolve their conflict
b: an intellectual exchange of ideas
6: the dialectical tension or opposition between two interacting forces or elements
Without the Sun, this conversation does not exist, no?
That connections thing……
A Bar Brawl! Excellent!
The best Learning-Teaching invention.
XD
For Pete’s sake! GMAST has no physical meaning!
Alec Rawls says:
October 19, 2012 at 4:35 pm
But he did not want to walk back his dismissal of the solar explanation. He wanted to re-argue it and re-affirm it.
and he did with verve and strength.
I mentioned years ago on this site that lag time effects of heating and cooling of the planet, both forward and aft from peak to trough of the solar cycle, exist as a result of solar variability.
I noticed some people even picked up on my “Lag time” phrase.
People here, including Muscheler, might have missed the point that according to instrumental total solar irradiance (TSI) measurements, solar luminosity increased from 1980 to 2000 and decreased afterword, and it was likely even lower during the 1970s.
This is evident in the ACRIM satellite composite TSI that uses the TSI data as published.
See here for a detailed analysis between ACRIM and PMOD TSI composite.
http://acrim.com/TSI%20Monitoring.htm
The PMOD TSI reconstruction, that does shows a flat TSI actually alters the TSI observations in a way that has been rejected by the experimental teams that took the measurements.
See here at the statements of Willson and Hoyt
http://climatechange.thinkaboutit.eu/think4/post/judithgate_ipcc_consensus_was_only_one_solar_physicist
The effects of these reconstructions on the climate, which include the trending warming, is discussed in details in my papers. For example
Scafetta N., 2009. Empirical analysis of the solar contribution to global mean air surface temperature change. Journal of Atmospheric and Solar-Terrestrial Physics 71, 1916-1923.
Scafetta N., 2011. Total Solar Irradiance Satellite Composites and their Phenomenological Effect on Climate. In Evidence-Based Climate Science edited by Don Easterbrook (Elsevier), chap. 12, 289-316.
I’m enjoying the discourse. Keep it civil.
We should just dump the words” Climate Change”, and Re-Brand it ourselves with the more scientifically accurate words “Climate Changes”.
Who says we have to always use the words they pick for us to use, all of the time?
What gives the UN the authority to do that to us?
Others have harped on this…
Every poster that has been caught up in this word game is unlikely to understand Alec Rawls post.
There! Does that make you happy?
Unlikely, is a weasel word when making a statement. Another word for it is a ‘caveat’ or conditional phrase, just in case they’re wrong. When taken, as by many posters here seem to believe; it is a get off the hook free card as Muscheler’s response indicates.
What Doctor Muscheler’s first phrasing and his followup phrasing means in cold hard facts is that he doesn’t know and therefore cannot explain the periods of cooling/warming. Otherwise he could explicitly state what is occurring without conditionals protection. Instead he leaves an impression that Alec Rawls is mistaken and never takes responsibility for the fact that if Alec misunderstands or is wrong, then so is CO2 AGW theory. Both suffer seriously from the same argument. Only Alec or Doctor Tisdale are trying to broaden the ‘simplistic’ theories by including Sea Surface Temps as a primary influence to land temperatures.
Albert Einstein stated
This is what makes Doctor Musheler’s statement ‘unconditional’. Temperature observations are also proving the CO2 forcing theory wrong. This is the fact that Doctor Muscheler should be focused on. All the unlikely’s in the world don’t make it correct.
What, or perhaps, which point are you making? That all of the simple leaps in logic without proof in climate CO2 AGW are not science?
Doctor Tisdale has a series of posts here (and a new book “Who turned on the heat?”, easily purchased and downloaded) that does more with SST science than all of those magical and mystical CO2 climate models.
Henry Clark notes that the image at the top of the post is:
That is Muscheler’s graphic (the one he mentions in the email as an attachment), and yeah, it’s pretty misleading, making it look like solar activity was way down during cycle 22 which, as I note, was actually more active than cycle 21.
Leif! I think this is the biggest error I’ve seen in any of your posts. Not the typo, but the implication that in two more years the whining wil stop. You’re letting your optimism show.
😉 /sarc
Take a look at this from WUWT for further clarification;
NASA June 2012 Solar Cycle 24 Prediction
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/08/nasa-june-2012-solar-cycle-24-prediction/
It is more than a little confusing that the calculations and presentation of the PDO come with ‘ + ’ and ‘ – ’ as part of the naming convention. Many readers seem to think the ‘ + ’ means positive as in ‘warm surface water’ and that, conversely, the ‘ – ’ means negative as in ‘cold surface water’. Further, there seems to be a mental glitch in the brains of many climate writers, which does not permit them to accept the words “pattern” and “spatial” as meaningful and useful. It is really too sad that the original nomenclature was not “pattern K” and “pattern R”, or some such.
See Tisdale @ur momisugly 1:40 pm, read and follow the link, and continue to do so until “spatial” and “pattern” begin to make sense.
He said `unlikely’. (qualified)
You said `can’t’. (unqualified)
There is all the world of difference. It is either sloppy or disingenuous to claim there is no difference. The title of the post is misleading.
News Flash:
Ted Turner donates $1 billion to the UN. I wonder why he’s really doing it?