A layman’s view of the strange period of history we are living through
Guest post by Caleb Shaw
During hot spells in the summer I often find it refreshing to click onto Anthony’s “Sea Ice Page,” and to sit back and simply watch ice melt. It is an escape from my busy, sweaty routine, as long as I avoid the “Sea Ice Posts” where people become anxious, political, and somewhat insulting, about the serene topic of ice melting. However by September there is no way to avoid the furor generated by melting ice. It reaches a crescendo.
I used to like the September Panic because I often could hijack a thread by bringing up the subject of Vikings. I’d rather talk about Vikings floating around during the MWP, than a bunch of bergs floating around and melting today.
The September Panic also entertained me because I used to learn about all sorts of things I didn’t know about. The debate always involved people clobbering each other with facts, and hitting each other over the head with links. In the process you’d learn all sorts of fascinating trivia about Norwegian fishermen in the 1920’s, and arctic explorers in the 1800’s, and even some science.
For example, fresh water floats on top of saltier water, unless it is the Gulf Stream, which is saltier water floating on top of fresher water because it is warmer, until it gets colder.
This science crosses your eyes, in a pleasant manner, and leads inevitably to discussions about thermohaline circulation, which is fascinating, because so little is known about it.
It also leads to discussions about how the freezing of salt water creates floating ice that is turned into fresh water by extracting brine, which forms “brincicles” as it dribbles down through the ice at temperatures far below zero and enters the warmer sea beneath. This in turn leads to discussions involving the fact that, with such large amounts of brine sinking, surface water must come from someplace to replace it, and in some cases this surface water is cold, while in other cases it is warm.
The fact the replacing waters can be warmer leads to discussions about the northernmost branches of the Gulf Stream, and how these branches meander north and south. This in turn leads to talk of the unpredictable nature of meandering, the further downstream you move from the original point where the meandering starts, and this, (if you are lucky,) will lead you to Chaos Theory and Strange Attractors.
(In the case of the Mississippi River, the subject of meandering leads you to the Delta, plus the topics of Engineers, New Orleans, and Murphy’s Law.) (In the case of psychology, the meanderings of the human mind leads to the conclusion humans are utterly unpredictable, unless they are psychologists, in which case they obey Smurphy’s Law, which states a psychologist will succumb to whatever ailment he is expert in.)
In conclusion, the September Panic can be a source of fascinating thought, providing you are willing to drift like a berg and wind up miles off topic.
I’ve been through this all before, during the Great Meltdown of 2007, and its September Panic. Those were great times, for in the period 2006-2007 the so-called “consensus” put forward a great propaganda effort, including the movie “An Inconvenient Truth,” and won Oscars, Peace Prizes, and a sound thrashing from Skeptics.
Congress debunked Mann’s “hockey stick” in 2006, an English Judge rebuked Al Gore for falsehoods in his movie in 2007, and also in 2007 Hansen had to back off his “adjustments” due to the work of McIntyre at Climate Audit. When Rush Limbaugh mentioned McIntyre’s victory, Climate Audit was overwhelmed by traffic, which was one reason the existence of WUWT came to be known by me, and many others.
In essence the “consensus” experienced a debacle in 2007, for its attempts at propaganda drew so much attention that all its flaws stood naked in a glaring spotlight, and ordinary people began to understand the emperor had no clothes.
All this happened before the 2007 ice-extent hit its record low, and added a quality of desperation to that year’s September Panic. Desperate for proof, Alarmists felt the low ice-extent proved Al Gore was right, and the IPCC was right, but, by using such dubious and refutable sources, they effectively were putting their heads on a chopping block. Or climbing out on a limb. Or swimming like fish in a barrel. (Take your pick.)
At this point a new word, a word most people had never used or even heard before, became quite common in the climate debates, and the word was “obfuscation.” (It would be interesting to compare how often that word was used in 2007 with how often it was used in 2005.)
The Alarmist’s obfuscation has now persisted for five years, which means that the melt-down of 2012 is a bit boring. It is a case of “been there, done that.” No longer do I often learn things I didn’t know about. One hears the same, tired, old arguments from 2007, and one knows it is hardly worth replying, because Alarmists are not interested in the vast and awesome complexity of a chaotic scientific reality, preferring the simplicity of a “belief,” which they grip with white knuckles.
About the only interesting and new approach on the part of Alarmists is their attempt to misuse psychology, and to make it a way of marginalizing and ostracizing those who point out their mistakes. Though appalling, this is interesting because it seems a perfect example of Smurfy’s Law.
Formerly the definition of “Liberal” was “generous,” and one thing that old-time Liberals were very generous about was giving minority viewpoints a fair hearing. In any discussion of Dams, Deserts and Droughts, they would hear the views of ordinary engineers, meteorologists, and hydrologists, but also insist upon hearing the views of extraordinary Native American rain-dancers. They desired “diversity,” and had contempt towards those who would not consider, or at least be considerate towards, “alternative views.”
Strangely, this concept has now vanished among some who formerly wore the tag, “Liberal.” Gone is their desire for “diversity,” replaced with a fawning regard for the “consensus.” The very same people who sneered at convention when young are now guilty of being the very thing they sneered at: Blindly conventional.
In a way this is a normal part of maturing. Churchill stated something like, “Those who were not Liberal when young had no heart; those who do not become Conservative when older have no brain.”
However there is a significant difference between the ordinary process of maturing, and people who enact Smurphy’s Law. In the ordinary process of maturing there are some core values which endure the battering of youthful idealism, as it gets hammered into the tempered steel of maturity. As the poetry of William Blake is subtly altered from “Songs of Innocence” into “Songs of Experience,” the poetry remains poetry; the heart remains a heart. However, in the case of Smurphy’s Law, those core values either are completely abandoned, or were abandoned in the beginning. (After all, psychology attempts to measure the human spirit with calipers and thermometers, and sometimes has a hard time conceding things such as “heart” and “poetry” even exist.)
At the risk of being poetic rather than scientific, I’ll state that our youthful ideals are like sails that haul us against the wind of a world that can be stormy and can leave our sails in tatters. Our core values are like a keel that keeps us from capsizing, so that even if we lose our hearing like Beethoven did, we still can produce a Ninth Symphony. Without such a keel of core values we can flip-flop, and end up enacting Smurfy’s Law, and see ourselves opposing the very free speech we once stood for.
This, and not the bergs bobbing about in the arctic, is the real melt-down that has occurred, and which we have been witness to. The very people who once were most adamant about free speech are now vehemently opposed to it. The very people who were most open minded to the most bizarre alternative-lifestyles now have minds clamped tighter than clam’s, (certain that they themselves are oysters and hold pearls.)
What a joke. Those who once were Liberals now are not, while those who never wished to be called Liberal now are.
It is a great struggle we are involved with, (defending free speech and open-mindedness,) but it does get tiresome, which is why I occasionally use Anthony’s “Sea Ice Page,” to flee to the North Pole, where I can serenely watch the bergs bob about and melt.
It is a great relief to escape the nonsense of Smurfy’s Law for a time, and to instead consider that which is awe inspiring: Creation is an incredible place, a chaos that has no business being orderly, but is.
Everywhere you look there are marvels too complex for even the hugest computer to handle: The vast meanderings of the Gulf Stream; the mysterious, pulsing appearances and disappearances of huge amounts of water into and out-of Thermohaline Circulation, the metamorphosis of a ripple on a front into the vast circulation of a huge storm with an eye, and so forth, from the deepest depths to the upper atmosphere, and on through solar winds to the sun.
Of course, even when you think you have escaped the bother of petty politics for a while, you’re liable to get dragged back to reality, even when hiding up in the Arctic.
For example, the Cryosphere Today map will show open ocean, as you read a news item about a fifteen-by-eleven-mile pack of bergs, containing ice as much as eighty feet thick, closing down a drilling operation in that area of “open ocean.”
http://www.adn.com/2012/09/10/2619205/shell-halts-chukchi-sea-drilling.html
At this point I always feel I am being dragged kicking and screaming from the sublime to the ridiculous. I “don’t want to go there,” but I have to.
In a way it reminds me of being the father of teenagers. They might tell me they were heading down to the Public Library to study, but I would get to thinking that such study seemed a bit out of character, so after a half hour I’d go check the Public Library to see if they really were there.
It is a sad state of affairs when you cannot take scientists at their word, and have to go check up on them as if they were teenagers, however some have earned this disgrace: They cannot be trusted. And this besmirches other scientists, good and honorable men who are just trying to do their work, but who suddenly notice a layman like me scowling over their shoulder. (Ever try to work with someone hovering over your shoulder? Half of the time it makes your hammer hit your thumb.)
Unfortunately science has earned such scrutiny. I no longer trust that the Arctic Ocean is ice-free just because Cryrosphere Today maps it as ice-free. I double check, using perhaps the DMI sea-surface-temperature map:
http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/satellite/index.uk.php
And I am then puzzled by the fact this map shows sea-surface-temperatures below the freezing point of salt water for large areas the Cryosphere map shows it as open ocean.
So I say the heck with maps, and resort to my lying eyes. The North Pole Camera has drifted far south of the pole, into Fram Strait. You can tell where the camera is by using the Buoy Drift Track Map at
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/DriftTrackMap.html
And this shows you that, according to various Cryosphere maps, the camera should either be showing half ice and half open water, or should show a nice view of fishes at the bottom of the sea. Instead it has a view of ice in all directions, with the summer’s melt-water pools freezing over, when the camera’s lens itself is not frosted over. When you check the site records you notice that, even though it has drifted south of 82 degrees north, temperatures have at times dipped below minus ten Celsius.
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/819920_atmos_recent.html
At this point you start to feel a bit like the father of a teenaged daughter who has discovered their child is not at the Library, who wonders where the heck the girl has gone.
One can continue on to the satellite view, which, if clouds are not in the way, shows the “open ocean” is remarkably dotted by white specks of ice.
Though one could perhaps then argue about whether the bergs amount to more-than or less-than 15%, and whether this means the water is officially defined as “open ocean” or not, such quibbling is a bit like discovering your teenaged daughter flirting at the ball field, and having her argue that the fact she has a book with her makes the ball field a “library.”
One simply has the feeling that truth is being stretched dangerously close to its limits.
Considering young scientists usually begin filled with idealistic zeal, and hunger and thirst for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, it seems a wonder they can wind up stretching truth and resembling a psychologist suffering from Smurphy’s Law. How could they sell out to such a degree?
The reason for selling out is always the same: Money.
I can not say for certain that, when I was young and sleeping in my car, I would not have been tempted by a grant for 1.7 million dollars. Perhaps even Beethoven would have been tempted to make pizza, rather than the Ninth Symphony, if someone had offered him 1.7 million dollars. (One interesting short piano work of Beethoven’s is entitled, “Rage Over A Lost Penny.”) Money is the root of all evil, and when we see scientists swayed by their patrons we should perhaps say, “There but for the Grace of God go I.” (And also, “Blessed are the poor.”)
In any case, it seems we live in a time when some scientists are working under the thumbs of benefactors and patrons who desire results presented with a certain political “spin.” If it is possible to present data concerning the melt of the Arctic Ice Cap in a way that makes it look more extreme, because this may make a carbon tax more possible, the scientist will be under great pressure to do so.
The scientist is in essence working with a frowning boss scowling over his shoulder. The only way we can counter-balance this effect is to also look over his shoulder, and give the poor fellow the sense that “the whole world is watching.” This will likely make scientists miserable, and also make them yearn for the days when they were ignored and could work in peaceful obscurity, however it will also keep them honest, which is for the best for all, in the long run.
Even as we behave in this somewhat petty and parental manner, we should not forget what brought most of us to examine the clouds and seas and sunshine and storms in the first place: Our sense of wonder. Others may focus their thinking to the cramped line-items of musty, budgetary chicanery for a narrow political cause, if they so chose, however the vast truths of creation remains open for the rest of us to witness, and to wonder about, if we so chose.
For example, ice-melt in the arctic may be the sign of many different possible things, including the advent of the next ice age. Open water may not only lose heat to outer space, but might lead to arid regions having increased, glacier-creating snowfalls. There are all sorts of ideas and realities to discuss and wonder about, starting with the surprisingly early snows that just buried the sheep in Iceland.
This September, the farmers of Iceland have something real to panic about. And perhaps that is the most important thing about dealing with truth: To stay real.
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richardscourtney says:
October 5, 2012 at 2:23 pm
Importantly, the models predicted reduced polar ice and not merely reduced Arctic ice.
Not simultaneously however, Antarctic sea ice reduced to near its present value in the late 70’s.
http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/tar/wg1/fig2-16.htm
(Yes there is a typo in the axis annotation, it should be 10^6 km^2)
Antarctic ice and total polar ice have both recently achieved a record maximum in the satellite era. Please note that the increase in Antarctic ice is so great that total polar ice has increased despite the reduction in Arctic ice.
This is not true, based on the CT data for sea ice area the recent minimum in the Arctic was 2.234 Mm^2 or 2.52 Mm^2 below average, whereas in the Antarctic the maximum was 16.1 Mm^2 or 1.02 Mm^2 above average. So the correct version is: ‘the decrease in Arctic ice is so great that total polar ice has decreased despite the increase in Antarctic ice’.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg
Currently global sea ice area is over 2 Mm^2 below the average for the date.
Phil says:
“Currently global sea ice area is over 2 Mm^2 below the average for the date.”
So what?
D Böehm says:
October 7, 2012 at 8:52 pm
Phil says:
“Currently global sea ice area is over 2 Mm^2 below the average for the date.”
So what?
So Courtney is mistaken!
Richard Courtney is your strawman. Explain why less Arctic sea ice matters.
@D Böehm – Warm Arctic Cold Continents
D Böehm says:
October 7, 2012 at 9:17 pm
Richard Courtney is your strawman. Explain why less Arctic sea ice matters.
I suggest you look up what a ‘strawman’ is, actually Courtney brought up the strawman of ‘total polar ice’ growth in an attempt to avoid dealing with Arctic sea ice loss. Since his statement wasn’t true I pointed out his mistake. He obviously thinks the Arctic loss matters otherwise he’d address the question instead of changing the subject!
You remind me a lot of a former poster here, ‘Smokey’, you ignore all of the parts of a post you can’t deal with and pull out a sentence and make an irrelevant comment about it.
Phil.;
A chain of logic or evidence fails if a link is broken. It is not necessary to show all the links are no good, though many may well be. “Yes, that required piece of evidence is contrary to logical prediction, but these over here are pretty good!” doesn’t cut it.
Caleb;
You have another egregious error, besides the misquote about (love of) money. Icebergs don’t “bob”; that’s moving up and down with waves, and they’re way too heavy. >;(
|8p
Phil:
Not for the first time, you present a falsehood at October 8, 2012 at 7:03 am where you say to D Böehm:
I DID address the subject and I did NOT change it (I wonder why you so often assert others do what you do). And I clearly stated that the Arctic ice loss does NOT matter.
I copy the pertinent post below to save others needing to find it.
Also, your post at October 7, 2012 at 8:19 pm makes two assertions; viz.
1. The rate of ice loss would differ from the two polar regions
And
2. Sea ice has not increased in the Antarctic as much as sea ice has increased in the arctic so, you say, total polar ice has decreased.
Your assertion which I number 1 is not justified and I would welcome a reference to support it because I have not seen such a reference. I have only seen the IPCC predictions of similar cooling in both polar regions.
Your assertion which I number 2 is wrong because it ignores land ice on the Antarctic. The sea ice extent has been increasing
http://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/WorldOfChange/sea_ice_south.php
Nobody knows how the Antarctic land ice is changing but its spread creates the growth in Antarctic sea ice. Using the reasonable assumption that total Antarctic ice is increasing in proportion to Antarctic sea ice then the total growth in Antarctic ice is much greater than the loss of Arctic ice: ~90% of all ice on Earth is in Antarctica.
I do wish you stop your habits of misrepresenting others and stating falsehoods.
Richard
richardscourtney says:
October 1, 2012 at 5:55 am
Bernard J.:
Your post at October 1, 2012 at 2:47 am says in total
Why do you ask?
Richard
richardscourtney says:
October 13, 2012 at 11:15 am
Phil:
Not for the first time, you present a falsehood at October 8, 2012 at 7:03 am where you say to D Böehm:
I suggest you look up what a ‘strawman’ is, actually Courtney brought up the strawman of ‘total polar ice’ growth in an attempt to avoid dealing with Arctic sea ice loss. Since his statement wasn’t true I pointed out his mistake. He obviously thinks the Arctic loss matters otherwise he’d address the question instead of changing the subject!
I DID address the subject and I did NOT change it (I wonder why you so often assert others do what you do). And I clearly stated that the Arctic ice loss does NOT matter.
Really where in this thread did you say that because I can’t find it in your post which I referred to?
I copy the pertinent post below to save others needing to find it.
Pertinent to what?
Also, your post at October 7, 2012 at 8:19 pm makes two assertions; viz.
1. The rate of ice loss would differ from the two polar regions
And
2. Sea ice has not increased in the Antarctic as much as sea ice has increased in the arctic so, you say, total polar ice has decreased.
Better to quote what someone says rather than paraphrase it, it’s not hard to do.
Your assertion which I number 1 is not justified and I would welcome a reference to support it because I have not seen such a reference. I have only seen the IPCC predictions of similar cooling in both polar regions.
You first you asserted that the models predicted equal loss at each pole. Also I think you’ll find that they predicted ‘warming’ in each polar region not ‘cooling’. The consequences of this were projected to be different in the Arctic and Antarctic, notably loss of sea ice in the Arctic and accumulation of snow in the Antarctic, (see IPPC).
Your assertion which I number 2 is wrong because it ignores land ice on the Antarctic. The sea ice extent has been increasing
Since the start of the satellite record, total Antarctic sea ice has increased by about 1 percent per decade.
http://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/WorldOfChange/sea_ice_south.php
Nobody knows how the Antarctic land ice is changing but its spread creates the growth in Antarctic sea ice.
How does it do that? The land is the same area as before, the ice on it is therefore occupies the same area. If you misunderstand the term and think that the landfast ice sheets somehow constitute land ice and that this expands and sea ice is measured relative to it, you are completely wrong and misunderstand how the measurements are made.
Using the reasonable assumption that total Antarctic ice is increasing in proportion to Antarctic sea ice then the total growth in Antarctic ice is much greater than the loss of Arctic ice: ~90% of all ice on Earth is in Antarctica.
This is a completely unreasonable assumption and bears no relationship with reality.
I do wish you stop your habits of misrepresenting others and stating falsehoods.
Pot, kettle black!
In sum, you changed the subject from Arctic sea ice to ‘total polar ice’, you didn’t “clearly state(d) that the Arctic ice loss does NOT matter”, you falsely stated that the increase in Antarctic ice outweighed the loss in Arctic ice and claimed that I was lying when I showed otherwise (I gave sourced numbers), you failed to justify your strange assumption that the Antarctic land area has increased, and that mysterious ‘pertinent post’ which failed to show up.
Richard you have some points to address to establish your credibility.
By the way if you do equate ice shelves with land-ice you should be aware that the mass balance of this ice is increasingly negative, e.g. Larsen, Wilkins, Pig Island, Twaites etc., although this has no relevance to the sea ice except to perhaps reduce the salinity of the polar seas.
REPLY: Phil, you can start talking about credibility when you have the courage to put you name to your words as Richard does. I find your lack of courage as a academic at Princeton troubling as always – Anthony
Brian H says:
October 13, 2012 at 8:43 am
Phil.;
A chain of logic or evidence fails if a link is broken. It is not necessary to show all the links are no good, though many may well be. “Yes, that required piece of evidence is contrary to logical prediction, but these over here are pretty good!” doesn’t cut it.
Would be fine if the facts were dependent on each other, however that wasn’t the case.
Phil:
Your post at October 13, 2012 at 2:57 pm is as illogical, untrue and daft as is your usual practice. It purports to be answering my post of October 13, 2012 at 11:15 am. Your illogicality, falsehood and daftness are demonstrated by the following example.
In the post you claim to be answering I wrote
I justified that statement by quoting the complete post with time stamp (i.e. October 1, 2012 at 5:55 am) where I wrote
Your response quotes my saying
And asks
Clearly, you cannot read.
The remainder of your post is equally ridiculous so I see no purpose in my answering any of it.
Richard
richardscourtney says:
October 14, 2012 at 6:58 am
Phil:
Your post at October 13, 2012 at 2:57 pm is as illogical, untrue and daft as is your usual practice. It purports to be answering my post of October 13, 2012 at 11:15 am. Your illogicality, falsehood and daftness are demonstrated by the following example.
In the post you claim to be answering I wrote
“And I clearly stated that the Arctic ice loss does NOT matter.”
I justified that statement by quoting the complete post with time stamp (i.e. October 1, 2012 at 5:55 am) where I wrote
“I would not “start sitting up and taking notice” if all the Arctic sea ice were to melt. Indeed, I would appreciate the benefits of improved transport and trade from the removal of Arctic sea ice.”
That appeared to be a response to Bernard J in which you appeared to be asking him a question (“Why do you ask”).
It is your habit of claiming to quote something and then not doing so is what leads to problems, you did not “clearly state(d) that the Arctic ice loss does NOT matter”, you said that “you wouldn’t sit up and take notice” which is not the same thing at all. Your lack of concern means that it doesn’t matter to you which is something else entirely. I assume that it would be good for your business?
Your response quotes my saying
And I clearly stated that the Arctic ice loss does NOT matter.
And asks
Really where in this thread did you say that because I can’t find it in your post which I referred to?
Clearly, you cannot read.
No clearly you did not write what you claimed! As I said before if you would actually quote material rather than paraphrase it would be much clearer.
The remainder of your post is equally ridiculous so I see no purpose in my answering any of it.
Richard
As usual you dodge the question, expecting to get a straight answer from you is clearly a waste of time, however I will ask one more time: what is the basis for your assumption that the Antarctic land area is increasing?
Phil:
As usual, in your post at October 14, 2012 at 11:32 am you lie. You say to me
I answered one point you made by showing you had not read the post you claimed to be answering, and I said the rest of your post was similar drivel so I would not bother to address any of it. I have here quoted your response to that.
Importantly, I did answer the question which you lie that I dodged. Indeed, you disputed my answer. So, in addition to demonstrating you can’t read, you now claim you don’t remember your disagreement with what I wrote as a method to lie that I dodged a question.
At October 13, 2012 at 11:15 am in a post addressed to you I wrote
[emphasis added: RSC]
And at October 13, 2012 at 2:57 pm you replied
That response is so inane that I thought it was rhetorical and I did not reply to it. Perhaps that is why you now try to pretend I dodged the question.
The sea ice is spreading because the land ice is increasing due to greater thickness: area is NOT volume. You see, there is this thing called viscosity, and if you find out about it then you will know the rate of ice spreading will be increased by greater pressure. That pressure increase is induced by more weight of ice: i.e. increased ice thickness. And that increase to ice thickness is why the ice spreading has increased to increase the amount of ice pushed out to become sea ice.
I apologise if my failure to take into account your ignorance of elementary physics induced you to think I was dodging the question: I assumed you knew why ice spreads. However, I suspect you are not as ignorant as you pretend to be and you are claiming that ignorance as a method to pretend I dodged your question which was
Area is NOT volume.
Now go away. Your nonsense is becoming a nuisance.
Richard
richardscourtney says:
October 14, 2012 at 12:44 pm
Phil:
As usual, in your post at October 14, 2012 at 11:32 am you lie. You say to me
As usual you dodge the question, expecting to get a straight answer from you is clearly a waste of time, however I will ask one more time: what is the basis for your assumption that the Antarctic land area is increasing?
I answered one point you made by showing you had not read the post you claimed to be answering, and I said the rest of your post was similar drivel so I would not bother to address any of it. I have here quoted your response to that.
No I showed that you didn’t write what you claimed that you did.
Advice to Richard when in a hole stop digging!
At October 13, 2012 at 11:15 am in a post addressed to you I wrote
Nobody knows how the Antarctic land ice is changing but its spread creates the growth in Antarctic sea ice. Using the reasonable assumption that total Antarctic ice is increasing in proportion to Antarctic sea ice then the total growth in Antarctic ice is much greater than the loss of Arctic ice:
Which as I pointed out to you is nonsense, this assumption is not reasonable and shows that you don’t understand how the measurements are made.
The sea ice is spreading because the land ice is increasing due to greater thickness: area is NOT volume.
Indeed it isn’t so why are you talking about volume when the discussion is about area (extent)?
You see, there is this thing called viscosity, and if you find out about it then you will know the rate of ice spreading will be increased by greater pressure. That pressure increase is induced by more weight of ice: i.e. increased ice thickness. And that increase to ice thickness is why the ice spreading has increased to increase the amount of ice pushed out to become sea ice.
You totally misunderstand the situation of the Antarctic ice, ice spreading from the land forms ice sheets not sea ice, it’s often extremely thick, many meters rather than the few meters of sea ice. Sea ice is formed annually by sea water freezing (it thickens often in the Antarctic by accumulation of snow on it). There is very little perennial sea ice in the Antarctic it usually reduces to the same minimum area by the end of the Austral summer (~2Mm^2).
Your original idea that the increase in ‘Land ice’ would be additive to the measured sea ice reveals a complete lack of knowledge about how the measurement is made. The satellites determine the area of the globe that is covered by ice as opposed to seawater and a value that represents the permanent land ice (land + permanent fast ice sheets) is subtracted to give the amount of sea ice. This value is kept constant, the low, nearly constant summer extent shows this to be reasonable. You also ignored the issue of the breakup of the land-fast ice sheets.
http://tinyurl.com/8hsj8do
I apologise if my failure to take into account your ignorance of elementary physics induced you to think I was dodging the question: I assumed you knew why ice spreads. However, I suspect you are not as ignorant as you pretend to be and you are claiming that ignorance as a method to pretend I dodged your question which was
You did not answer the question, which was occasioned by your complete misrepresentation of the facts of sea ice growth in the Antarctic. I assumed that you knew better, unfortunately as you have made clear by this post, you don’t!
Here’s a map of the Antarctic and its associated ice sheets, your proposition is that the area of those sheets increased by the total of the two largest, Ross and Ronne-Filcher over the last six months but that increase will mysteriously disappear over the next six months. Not only that no one has noticed the advance and retreat of 100m high cliffs of ice!
http://tinyurl.com/czyyt9f
Now go away. Your nonsense is becoming a nuisance.
I’m sure that you find out having your lack of knowledge of the subject is a nuisance, the answer is in your own hands, stop posting nonsense!
Phil:
I leave this thread for others to judge your uneducated and anti-scientific nonsense against my clear and logical statements. You don’t read what is written then lie and dissemble as a method to engender responses.
Clearly, there is no purpose in my assisting your ego masturbation further. So, I refuse to provide further answers to your tripe which all observers can easily assess for themselves.
Richard
richardscourtney says:
October 15, 2012 at 11:27 am
Phil:
I leave this thread for others to judge your uneducated and anti-scientific nonsense against my clear and logical statements. You don’t read what is written then lie and dissemble as a method to engender responses.
Clearly, there is no purpose in my assisting your ego masturbation further. So, I refuse to provide further answers to your tripe which all observers can easily assess for themselves.
Ok run away and hide, the discussion will be better for your absence.
REPLY: yet Phil still hides his name and affiliation. I’m not impressed with your taunts sir. – Anthony
I note with interest that “Phil” refuses to reveal HIS funding source(s) and HIS biases to (most likely) simply continue HIS career and future reputation in the CAGW community.
RACookPE1978 says:
October 15, 2012 at 12:50 pm
I note with interest that “Phil” refuses to reveal HIS funding source(s) and HIS biases to (most likely) simply continue HIS career and future reputation in the CAGW community.
That’s not true, I have never refused to do so, no one has asked! I currently do not have any research funding and haven’t for the last 10 years. In the past I have had funding from several sources, including: DoE, Ford, GM, Yamaha, MoD, Rolls-Royce (1971) Ltd., U. K. Tioxide Ltd., U.K. Lucas Aerospace Ltd., Centro Ricerche FIAT, Italy, Exxon Research & Engineering Co., U.S.A., VW.
I have never had a career in the CAGW community.
Now will you reveal your funding sources?
REPLY: yet Phil still hides his name and affiliation. I’m not impressed with your taunts sir. – Anthony
Well I’m not impressed with Richard’s, he comes here and gives us the benefit of his erudition and makes a boatload of errors and when challenged on them blusters and becomes insulting.
I have told you in the past why I choose not to give my name an affiliation, one denial of service/spam attack on my email account which caused significant disruption to my classes etc. was enough! Not due to WUWT I hasten to add, but once bitten twice shy, also most of the other posters on here are anonymous.
Phil:
You wrote
Pot and kettle.
Your are clearly making a psychological projection. Clear off.
Richard
I am a salaried engineer. Been working to improve the world’s power and efficiency and safety since 1974. My first award for conservation efforts was in 1986. I’m paid based on my ability to earn more money for each company based on my knowledge and experience than they choose to pay me each year in earnings. Husband of one, son of two, father of three, grandfather of four …. Degrees and skills include: nuclear engineering, thermodynamics, nuclear and particle and quantum physics, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, structural analysis, FEA and 3D analysis, metallurgy, statistics and its sub-disciples (my MS is in Quality Assurance), fluid flow, heat transfer, computer controls, analog controls, welding, blacksmithing and metal casting (my hobbies).
And, yes, I’m one of Anthony’s vast right-wing conspirators (er, contributors) each paycheck with a donation. And half of my salary goes to those government-paid ivory tower dwellers using MY money to ruin MY children’s future and MY grandchildren’s potential for a better life.