
Note: This will be the top post for a day or two, new posts will appear below this one.
Readers may recall my original post, Nature’s ugly decision: ‘Deniers’ enters the scientific literature. followed by Dr. Paul Bain Responds to Critics of Use of “Denier” Term (with thanks to Jo Nova, be sure to bookmark and visit her site) Dr. Robert G. Brown of Duke University, commenting as rgbatduke, made a response that was commented on by several here in that thread. As commenter REP put it in the update: It is eloquent, insightful and worthy of consideration. I would say, it is likely the best response I’ve ever seen on the use of the “denier” term, not to mention the CAGW issue in general. Thus, I’ve elevated it a full post. Please share the link to this post widely. – Anthony
Dr. Robert G. Brown writes:
The tragic thing about the thoughtless use of a stereotype (denier) is that it reveals that you really think of people in terms of its projected meaning. In particular, even in your response you seem to equate the term “skeptic” with “denier of AGW”.
This is silly. On WUWT most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that. What they challenge is the catastrophic label and the alleged magnitude of the projected warming on a doubling of CO_2. They challenge this on rather solid empirical grounds and with physical arguments and data analysis that is every bit as scientifically valid as that used to support larger estimates, often obtaining numbers that are in better agreement with observation. For this honest doubt and skepticism that the highly complex global climate models are correct you have the temerity to socially stigmatize them in a scientific journal with a catch-all term that implies that they are as morally reprehensible as those that “deny” that the Nazi Holocaust of genocide against the Jews?
For shame.
Seriously, for shame. You should openly apologize for the use of the term, in Nature, and explain why it was wrong. But you won’t, will you… although I will try to explain why you should.
By your use of this term, you directly imply that I am a “denier”, as I am highly skeptical of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (not just “anthropogenic global warming”, which is plausible if not measurable, although there are honest grounds to doubt even this associated with the details of the Carbon Cycle that remain unresolved by model or experiment). Since I am a theoretical physicist, I find this enormously offensive. I might as well label you an idiot for using it, when you’ve never met me, have no idea of my competence or the strength of my arguments for or against any aspect of climate dynamics (because on this list I argue both points of view as the science demands and am just as vigorous in smacking down bullshit physics used to challenge some aspect of CAGW as I am to question the physics or statistical analysis or modelling used to “prove” it). But honestly, you probably aren’t an idiot (are you?) and no useful purpose is served by ad hominem or emotionally loaded human descriptors in a rational discussion of an objective scientific question, is there.
Please understand that by creating a catch-all label like this, you quite literally are moving the entire discussion outside of the realm of science, where evidence and arguments are considered and weighed independent of the humans that advance them, where our desire to see one or another result proven are (or should be) irrelevant, where people weigh the difficulty of the problem being addressed as an important contributor (in a Bayesian sense) to how much we should believe any answer proposed — so far, into the realm where people do not think at all! They simply use a dismissive label such as “denier” and hence avoid any direct confrontation with the issues being challenged.
The issue of difficulty is key. Let me tell you in a few short words why I am a skeptic. First of all, if one examines the complete geological record of global temperature variation on planet Earth (as best as we can reconstruct it) not just over the last 200 years but over the last 25 million years, over the last billion years — one learns that there is absolutely nothing remarkable about today’s temperatures! Seriously. Not one human being on the planet would look at that complete record — or even the complete record of temperatures during the Holocene, or the Pliestocene — and stab down their finger at the present and go “Oh no!”. Quite the contrary. It isn’t the warmest. It isn’t close to the warmest. It isn’t the warmest in the last 2 or 3 thousand years. It isn’t warming the fastest. It isn’t doing anything that can be resolved from the natural statistical variation of the data. Indeed, now that Mann’s utterly fallacious hockey stick reconstruction has been re-reconstructed with the LIA and MWP restored, it isn’t even remarkable in the last thousand years!
Furthermore, examination of this record over the last 5 million years reveals a sobering fact. We are in an ice age, where the Earth spends 80 to 90% of its geological time in the grip of vast ice sheets that cover the polar latitudes well down into what is currently the temperate zone. We are at the (probable) end of the Holocene, the interglacial in which humans emerged all the way from tribal hunter-gatherers to modern civilization. The Earth’s climate is manifestly, empirically bistable, with a warm phase and cold phase, and the cold phase is both more likely and more stable. As a physicist who has extensively studied bistable open systems, this empirical result clearly visible in the data has profound implications. The fact that the LIA was the coldest point in the entire Holocene (which has been systematically cooling from the Holocene Optimum on) is also worrisome. Decades are irrelevant on the scale of these changes. Centuries are barely relevant. We are nowhere near the warmest, but the coldest century in the last 10,000 years ended a mere 300 years ago, and corresponded almost perfectly with the Maunder minimum in solar activity.
There is absolutely no evidence in this historical record of a third stable warm phase that might be associated with a “tipping point” and hence “catastrophe” (in the specific mathematical sense of catastrophe, a first order phase transition to a new stable phase). It has been far warmer in the past without tipping into this phase. If anything, we are geologically approaching the point where the Earth is likely to tip the other way, into the phase that we know is there — the cold phase. A cold phase transition, which the historical record indicates can occur quite rapidly with large secular temperature changes on a decadal time scale, would truly be a catastrophe. Even if “catastrophic” AGW is correct and we do warm another 3 C over the next century, if it stabilized the Earth in warm phase and prevented or delayed the Earth’s transition into cold phase it would be worth it because the cold phase transition would kill billions of people, quite rapidly, as crops failed throughout the temperate breadbasket of the world.
Now let us try to analyze the modern era bearing in mind the evidence of an utterly unremarkable present. To begin with, we need a model that predicts the swings of glaciation and interglacials. Lacking this, we cannot predict the temperature that we should have outside for any given baseline concentration of CO_2, nor can we resolve variations in this baseline due to things other than CO_2 from that due to CO_2. We don’t have any such thing. We don’t have anything close to this. We cannot predict, or explain after the fact, the huge (by comparison with the present) secular variations in temperature observed over the last 20,000 years, let alone the last 5 million or 25 million or billion. We do not understand the forces that set the baseline “thermostat” for the Earth before any modulation due to anthropogenic CO_2, and hence we have no idea if those forces are naturally warming or cooling the Earth as a trend that has to be accounted for before assigning the “anthropogenic” component of any warming.
This is a hard problem. Not settled science, not well understood, not understood. There are theories and models (and as a theorist, I just love to tell stories) but there aren’t any particularly successful theories or models and there is a lot of competition between the stories (none of which agree with or predict the empirical data particularly well, at best agreeing with some gross features but not others). One part of the difficulty is that the Earth is a highly multivariate and chaotic driven/open system with complex nonlinear coupling between all of its many drivers, and with anything but a regular surface. If one tried to actually write “the” partial differential equation for the global climate system, it would be a set of coupled Navier-Stokes equations with unbelievably nasty nonlinear coupling terms — if one can actually include the physics of the water and carbon cycles in the N-S equations at all. It is, quite literally, the most difficult problem in mathematical physics we have ever attempted to solve or understand! Global Climate Models are children’s toys in comparison to the actual underlying complexity, especially when (as noted) the major drivers setting the baseline behavior are not well understood or quantitatively available.
The truth of this is revealed in the lack of skill in the GCMs. They utterly failed to predict the last 13 or 14 years of flat to descending global temperatures, for example, although naturally one can go back and tweak parameters and make them fit it now, after the fact. And every year that passes without significant warming should be rigorously lowering the climate sensitivity and projected AGW, making the probability of the “C” increasinginly remote.
These are all (in my opinion) good reasons to be skeptical of the often egregious claims of CAGW. Another reason is the exact opposite of the reason you used “denier” in your article. The actual scientific question has long since been co-opted by the social and political one. The real reason you used the term is revealed even in your response — we all “should” be doing this and that whether or not there is a real risk of “catastrophe”. In particular, we “should” be using less fossil fuel, working to preserve the environment, and so on.
The problem with this “end justifies the means” argument — where the means involved is the abhorrent use of a pejorative descriptor to devalue the arguers of alternative points of view rather than their arguments at the political and social level — is that it is as close to absolute evil in social and public discourse as it is possible to get. I strongly suggest that you read Feynman’s rather famous “Cargo Cult” talk:
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
In particular, I quote:
For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a
friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of this work were. “Well,” I said, “there aren’t any.” He said, “Yes, but then we won’t get support for more research of this kind.” I think that’s kind of dishonest. If you’re representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you’re doing–and if they don’t want to support you under those circumstances, then that’s their decision.
One example of the principle is this: If you’ve made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish both kinds of results.
I say that’s also important in giving certain types of government
advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether
drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it
would be better in some other state. If you don’t publish such a
result, it seems to me you’re not giving scientific advice. You’re
being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don’t publish it at all. That’s not giving scientific advice.
Time for a bit of soul-searching, Dr. Bain. Have you come even close to living up to the standards laid out by Richard Feynman? Is this sort of honesty apparent anywhere in the global climate debate? Did the “Hockey Team” embrace this sort of honesty in the infamous Climategate emails? Do the IPCC reports ever seem to present the counter arguments, or do they carefully avoid showing pictures of the 20,000 year thermal record, preferring instead Mann’s hockey stick because it increases the alarmism (and hence political impact of the report)? Does the term “denier” have any place in any scientific paper ever published given Feynman’s rather simple criterion for scientific honesty?
And finally, how dare you presume to make choices for me, for my relatives, for my friends, for all of the people of the world, but concealing information from them so that they make a choice to allocate resources the way you think they should be allocated, just like the dishonest astronomer of his example. Yes, the price of honesty might be that people don’t choose to support your work. Tough. It is their money, and their choice!
Sadly, it is all too likely that this is precisely what is at stake in climate research. If there is no threat of catastrophe — and as I said, prior to the hockey stick nobody had the slightest bit of luck convincing anyone that the sky was falling because global climate today is geologically unremarkable in every single way except that we happen to be living in it instead of analyzing it in a geological record — then there is little incentive to fund the enormous amount of work being done on climate science. There is even less incentive to spend trillions of dollars of other people’s money (and some of our own) to ameliorate a “threat” that might well be pure moonshine, quite possibly ignoring an even greater threat of movement in the exact opposite direction to the one the IPCC anticipates.
Why am I a skeptic? Because I recognize the true degree of our ignorance in addressing this supremely difficult problem, while at the same time as a mere citizen I weigh civilization and its benefits against draconian energy austerity on the basis of no actual evidence that global climate is in any way behaving unusually on a geological time scale.
For shame.
Prof. Brown, thank you for such an eloquent defense of science and basic human decency.
Regarding one crucial technical point which you mentioned, whether we have a model that predicts the swings of glaciation and interglacials, have you considered the theory advanced by Peter Huybers and Carl Wunsch, who argued that the 41,000-year obliquity cycle has been dominant over the past 2-3 million years, but that during the past million years the Earth has entered a mode of climate behavior where only the second or third cycle triggers an ice age? Thus that the last 4 interglacials were approximately 130K, 250K, 330K and 410K years before the present, and that we are now 7000 years past the peak of the current interglacial?
Huybers, P.; Wunsch, C. (March 2005). “Obliquity pacing of the late Pleistocene glacial terminations”. Nature 434 (7032): 491–4. DOI:10.1038/nature03401. PMID 15791252.
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~phuybers/Doc/pace_nature2005.pdf
Correction: I meant to say ”… but that during the past million years the Earth has entered a mode of climate behavior where only every second or third obliquity maximum triggers an interglacial?”
Trying to be as succinct as possible –
To the assertion that atmospheric CO2 is causing the earth to heat inordinately I reply “where is this heat?”
TimC;
but I’m afraid there is still no way legally to prevent alarmists using the “d-word”, if they so wish. We can only seek to get on with the job of ultimately proving they are wrong.>>>>
I bever effing said anything about legally preventing them for goodness sakes I said the opposite. As for getting on with the job of ultimately proving they are wrong, wake up and smell the coffee. We’ve won the debate on every single front there is. That is why they REFUSE to debate. That is WHY they resort instead to the tactics of intimidation, dismissal, and dehumanization. And you want to let them.
Go challenge a warmist to publicly debate about science. Watch what happens. Experience first hand the result. Maybe that will knock some sense into you.
Many thanks for this. The criteria which science requires for making a decision about whether to accept, deny, or withhold judgement of a hypothesis, are straightforward. They are: 1) relevance, 2) testability, 3) compatibility with previously well-established hypotheses, 4) predictive or explanatory power, and 5) simplicity. Where does the label ‘denier’ fit into this? It doesn’t. Anyone who uses the term abuses science. Either we accept this, or we change the definition of ‘scientist’ to something on the order of ‘one who collects grant money for a living, by whatever means come to hand’. Come what may, enough of us will remember what science really is to recover from the dreadful damage some climate ‘scientists’ have done, and are doing. Magazines like ‘Nature’ won’t survive, and won’t be missed.
Robert Brown says:
June 22, 2012 at 7:52 pm
Thanks a lot for this clear answer to the what Nature has written. It fully decribes my own thoughts…
About another sentence in your comment:
I’ve been in a debate with a very cogent arguer in other threads of WUWT who puts forth the proposition that global CO_2 levels are set by temperature only, with a roughly two year lag. His argument is evidence-based, associated with an observed, usually lagged, strong correlation between the temperature anomaly and the derivative of the atmospheric CO_2 concentration.
I suppose that you mean the different debates with Bart and Gavin Cawley and me.
The problem with Bart’s comparison is that a correlation with a derivative says nothing about the cause of a trend in the depending variable. Indeed you can fit the derivative and the trend with temperature only or alternatively with zero trend from temperature and full trend from the human emissions where temperature variations only cause the variability around the trend.
Here the two alternatives:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/co2_T_dT_em_1960_2005.jpg
Both give a reasonable fit for the variability over the period 1960-2005. As the emissions only are known for yearly averages, I used yearly averages for all the variables. Monthly figures give a better correlation between temperature and CO2 rate-of-change.
Both solutions also give a reasonable fit for the trend as the residual deviations show. The coefficients used were optimised for minimum deviation.
So far so good. The problem with Bart’s (and Salby’s and others) is that they use the absolute temperature (anomaly) as the driving force, but there is no natural physical process that gives an unlimited amount of CO2 for a constant temperature deviation from an arbitrary zero line. Both oceans and vegetation have a limited CO2 response over time to temperature changes usually with a 1-2 years time constant…
The problem gets visible if you show the effect of both alternatives for another time frame (even think about the effect of a 1 degree drop in temperature during the LIA or a 10 degrees drop during a glacial period…):
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/co2_T_dT_em_1900_2005.jpg
I think that the temperature as only cause or even as main cause of the increase hereby is refuted…
Robert Brown says:
June 23, 2012 at 3:13 pm
Instead of repeating the AGW narratives one way or another, you are welcome to provide a physical experimental proof of CO2 warming and a proof, that the methods of calculations of “global warming” are scientifically correct. Because in absence of these proofs the whole AGW thing is just a speculation multiplied with propaganda.
You mean you need more of a proof than the TOA IR spectrographs that show the CO_2 hole? Or do you really think that the AGW conspiracy stretches back so many years that all of the proxy and instrumental records of a general warming post LIA are part of it?
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I mean a scientific physical experiment proving CO2 warming, more exactly, proving that 200-300 ppm CO2 in the air (1 molecule from 3300-5000 molecules) cause (according to the AGW concept) 7 degrees rise in temperature. Your hole neither proves such warming nor any warming at all and of course it is not the experiment in question.
Second, I mean a scientific proof, that all the “methods” used to calculate “global warming” are scientifically correct, including use of so called “proxies”, adjustments, homogenising, temperature reconstructions and assigning temperatures to large areas. I do not mean a mere description of these “methods” but specifically a proof, that …(see above).
And Robert, if such proofs are not known to you – no problem, it is not your fault.
RGB: You mean you need more of a proof than the TOA IR spectrographs that show the CO_2 hole?
IR is so wimpy that a piece of notebook paper can block it. From that, we get measurable heating from “back radiation”? Some people live in a world no engineer would recognize.
TimC says:
June 22, 2012 at 9:12 pm
….., I would have thought that expressions such as “absolute evil in social and public discourse” are a little excessive as applying to something not much more significant than a “you called me a nasty name” children’s playground row.
Wouldn’t it be better just to ignore the silly labels and get on with the mission?
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No Dr Brown is correct. This was in a PEER-REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC Journal and the stakes that are being played for are very very high. We are talking about forming a World Government run by greedy power hunger thieves who want it ALL. Just look up the UN’s views on the ownership of land. For example link
This is why Bain and his article are so dangerous, skeptics are completely “Off Message” and therefore must be effectively silenced if the UN is to push through to its goals of becoming a world government similar to the European Union with the “Right” to tax people directly making all our nations vassal states of the UN. A list of the goals Bain’s objective was to provide a scholarly article that could be used by the mass media to convince the general public to completely ignore skeptics.
Great stuff everyone.
Thanks, Anthony.
PS: Here’s another dismissive but not objectionable terms alarmists (or “Gawd-sakers”) could use in place of “deniers”: Climate change complacenists. (This nicely parallels our use of alarmists.)
What I have in mind are low-interest loans and maybe (if needed) mild tax breaks. I wouldn’t offer these for investments that wouldn’t have a good and quick payoff, like solar or wind (for most uses). They could be phased in gradually or regionally, to avoid going all-in all-at-once on something unproven. The “break” offered could be modest. Here are four investments that paid off quickly for me about 15 years ago (I did the installation):
* Large (20 by 16 and 16 by 16) retractable summer awnings on the two sunny sides of the house. These cost about $1600 from Sunsetter.
* Attic fan and thermostatically controlled on/off switch–cost about $200.
* Blown-in wall insulation. Cost maybe $350.
* Plywood sheathing all around the upper half of my basement wall (the cripple wall). Cost maybe $250. Helpfully reduced shaking in subsequent earthquakes–may save my house if the Big One hits. Also provides a little insulation effect.
These cut my heating bills and enabled me to avoid installing air conditioning. These would be good investments for others in a similar situation to mine. I didn’t need subsidies, because I have foresight. But most people don’t, and they suffer from inertia. A little nudge would get them moving.
Sure, but that flaw isn’t inherent in such projects. If the installers are given instructional videodisks and their initial jobs are randomly monitored, the downside can be avoided–or sufficiently minimized.
Incidentally, here’s a list of such policies I posted here about a year ago:
1. Serious encouragement of natural gas for heating and truck fuel.
2. Serious encouragement of insulation upgrades and in building codes. (E.g., the unemployed could be trained to install insulation, for which the gov’t. would pay upfront, taking compensation by getting an option on a share of the profit on the house when it is sold.)
2a. Similar encouragement for heat pumps for heating/cooling in regions with “continental” weather patterns (wide winter/summer swings).
3. Serious encouragement of innovative-technology (e.g., pebble bed) nuclear plants.
4. Serious encouragement of “deep geothermal” in rural areas.
5. Coal liquefaction as a fuel for trains and vehicles.
6. Encouragement of videoconferencing for business meetings. (The gov’t. could take the lead here.)
7. Encouragement of research on longshots with breakthrough potential like cold fusion and other fringe stuff.
8. A higher gasoline tax, rather than more stringent mileage requirements for vehicles.
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A more insidious term is “deviationist,” because it suggests that what the dissenters are opposing has Stalinoid characteristics.
Dr. Brown, can you please go talk some sense in your fellow Duke colleague, Dr. Bill Chameides?
http://www.thegreengrok.com
David Thomas says:
June 22, 2012 at 9:58 pm
“The Earth’s climate is manifestly, empirically bistable, with a warm phase and cold phase, and the cold phase is both more likely and more stable.” Was this written as intended? Or do I just have an aversion to shivering?
________________________________
Unfortunately you read it correctly. graph 4 interglacials
No, give them a civilized alternative that communicates their disdain for us without stepping over the line. If the other side won’t pick up this option and instead persists in its un-civil behavior of using ‘denier,” we would then be in a position to scold them about it–and score a point with the audience.
The tragic thing about the thoughtless use of a stereotype (denier) is that it reveals that you really think of people in terms of its projected meaning. In particular, even in your response you seem to equate the term “skeptic” with “denier of AGW”.
This is silly. On WUWT most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that.
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As I said in the first post about this and I think definitely worth repeating – you AGW warmers have usurped the term “deniers” from those it is directed at – those of us who reject AGW and the Greenhouse Effect entirely.
That’s why “seem to equate the term “skeptic” with “denier of AGW”, is not seemed at all, it is what he is equating it to.
It’s not about you.
You warmists just don’t get it, you keep pulling this trick of calling yourselves skeptics and then getting all affronted because they’re calling you deniers ‘without finding out what you’re denying’. Stop calling yourselves skeptics. We’re the skeptics asking for science proof of your warmist claims.
By all means tell the CAGW crowd that you’re of the same AGW belief system, but have a difference of doctrine about how much warming from CO2, just quit pretending you’re skeptics. You don’t question the science. And certainly quit the ‘you’re giving skeptics a bad name’ – you’re the ones giving real skeptics a bad name.
Go commiserate with your CAGW buddies against the real skeptics, because enough of the faux angst of you lot claiming they’re calling you deniers, they’re not. They for the most part don’t even know you exist, that’s why you keep having to explain who you are to them..
As Monckton does here: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/11/monckton-responds-to-potholer54/#comment-900719
“Mr. Metzler, in a pointlessly angry posting, wonders whether anyone at WattsUpWithThat accepts the physical properties of CO2 that were established 200 years ago. My post explicitly mentioned, with approval, John Tyndale’s experiment of 1859, which established that the greenhouse effect is real and that CO2 contributes to it. It is really no longer possible for the climate-extremist faction to continue to maintain that the scientific debate between skeptics and alarmists is about whether CO2 causes warming. It does: get used to it. The debate is about how much warming the CO2 causes – a quantitative, not a qualitative, question. And, as I hope shortly to prove, the warming that CO2 causes is not enough to worry about, still less to spend trillions on.”
Who the heck do you think you are to move the goal posts? And then try and marginalise us, and golly, but it’s OK for you to call us deniers, while you get all hurt about the CAGW people calling you that when they’re not..
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/02/29/climate-deniers-are-giving-us-skeptics-a-bad-name/#comment-910878
Here’s Singer: he’s now usurped the term skeptic for those of his ilk and quite happy to call us real skeptics the “deniers” without qualification, without giving a damn that it comes with all the Holocaust baggage, without giving a damn that it marginalises us by refusing to respond to the science questions.
Just like the rest of AGWScience Fiction fisics, you just play around with the terms and the meanings to suit yourselves.
And the worst of it is this hypocricy which comes not only from Singer but as Monckton has given evidence of while taking the oh so moral high ground about the truth in science being what’s important, not agreeing with your professors to please them when you can see they’re wrong, but when it comes to trying to get the truth of science from him, when asking him to show and tell the AGW memes he regurgitates, he becomes the loud mouthed yob he objects to when the CAGW’s call real skeptics deniers.
You warmists can’t keep making claims that have been debunked. Such as here Monckton:
” Lord Monckton then startled his audience by saying it was settled science that there is a greenhouse effect, that CO2 adds to it, that CO2 is increasing in the atmosphere, that we are largely to blame, and that some warming can be expected to result. But these facts had been established by easily-replicable and frequently-replicated measurements first performed by John Tyndall in 1859 at the Royal Institution in London, “just down the road from m’ club, don’t y’ know” (laughter). Therefore, these conclusions did not need to be sanctified by consensus.”
Oh jolly dee, but where is this easily-replicable and frequently-replicated measurements first performed by Tyndall? It’s not in anything I’ve read of Tyndall, or found by others in the discussion* who’d read Tyndall. And when asked for this and other proof of his claimed settled AGW science Monckton becomes abusive and requests deniers thrown out of his settled science AGW claims discussion, that we be marginalised in a ghetto on WUWT, that we be censored.
Is the hypocricy of that lost on him?
As I’ve thought sometimes, I find it difficult to believe that his public school (British private education), taught the impossible claims of AGW when he attended it.
*http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/03/10/moncktons-schenectady-showdown/#comment-919500
So relax, Robert, Bain isn’t talking about you. However, all that you’ve said about the use of the word “denier” to avoid talking real science is applicable – because so far y’all run away when asked for Greenhouse Effect proof, when you’re, generic, not simply uppity in avoiding it, there’s a deafening silence.
Christopher Hanley says:
In a ghastly irony, the ‘denier’ label serves a similar purpose to the yellow star, but not with the same dire consequences of course.
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Ron House says: @ur momisugly June 22, 2012 at 10:29 pm
I hope you understand from the 10:10 video, that the only reason for the lack of the same dire consequences is that they don’t (yet) have the power to do so.
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You are correct. Because I am in favor of the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms, I was told by a dance partner in Massachusetts “When we take over we will kill people like you.” and he was completely serious.
If you want to know just how rabid this people are, spend some time in Cambridge Square or on the Berkley campus wearing a tee-shirt supporting the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms or one of Josh’s Cartoons and see the reaction you get.
I really enjoyed Dr. Brown’s comment in the thread where it originated. In fact, I bookmarked it even before it was promoted. And, I am also enjoying his additional remarks in this thread. However ……
The only thing that will bring down the CAGW beast is the revoking of positions by the major scientific academies. I can run rings around warmists in any kind of debate (most have no clue) until they eventually argue … “who am I to believe, you or all the major scientific academies”. Yes, one can claim it’s political, etc. but the warmist is never converted.
What’s needed now is more letters to these organizations from their members. I know a few have tried, but with mounting evidence supporting our position we also need to identify and target the people who are allowing the positions to stand. We need to make them feel the “heat” that Bain now feels.
Dr. Brown, you have managed to state in fewer, more poignant words, what needs to be understood by all in this very human debate. As I read your response I kept thinking of what should be stated when asked “Do you believe in global warming?” Such a simple question is rife with presumptions about belief structures. A reasonable assumption would be that this simplistic question probes for a belief in CAGW/AGW, but such a catchall as “global warming” does not leave sufficient wiggle-room to accommodate a similarly simple answer. As you correctly point out, the present warming quails beside even the proxy record for the Holocene such a “Yes” response would be rigidly required.
But the real question still evades many. The present warming, of which the kerfuffle would seem to be about unsurprisingly corresponds to the most recent PDO/AMDO positive cycle. Which cycles were only formally recognized in 1996, just a few years before Hansen’s senate “oven” hearing. With that most recent warming diminutive applied only to the record established during this extreme interglacial.
In light of not what can happen, but what has happened, this becomes nothing more than a basic signal to noise ratio problem. With the “anthropogenic effect” curiously absent over the last 15 years or so,
In the end game you may be one of the few that also recognizes “when” we live: at the far more likely end of this half a precession old interglacial. Which neatly turns the debate on the efficacy of CO2 on its head.
If it were all up to just one of us, taking into consideration the Precautionary Principle, which would you do? Implement economy-wide prohibitions on emissions of CO2, or stuff as much climate security blanket as you can into the atmosphere at the probable end of the most recent extreme interglacial?
Because, like it or not, those are the end-points of the likely end-Holocene plays.
And on what basis would each of us make such a crucial decision? Data, the “dog at my homework”, manipulations that miraculously survive the HARRY_READ_ME.txt file? Going “all-in” on such dubious “tells” might be understood to represent as far as we may have evolved at present, betting on something so nebulous as this interglacial spanning 1 to 2 precession cycles, like MIS-11, 400kyrs ago, did.
Even if MIS-1, the Holocene, is to be a repeat of MIS-11, there are still the thousands of years between each of its half-precession long thermal plateaus that we would have to navigate. Meaning that even if we are to experience another extended interglacial, the climate trough in-between argues strongly against neutering whatever climate security blanket we may have unwittingly released since the onset of the industrial age.
The conundrum we actually face is what to do at the half-precession-cycle old Holocene. Even MIS-11, possibly our closest climate correlative (the most recent interglacial also occurring at an eccentricity minimum) stumbled into a climate funk for a few thousand years between climate optima.
Logic dictates that in either case, climate trough between extended interglacial optima or end half-precession cycle old extreme interglacial, it would be counter-intuitive to remove even a theological ton of climate security blanket.
I, for one, am appreciative of the fact that you get the arguments.
Wyndham, Monckton and and now Dr. Brown possess eloquence I can only hope to someday have. Thank you sir for entering the CAGW fray.
rogerknights says:
June 23, 2012 at 5:02 pm
No, give them a civilized alternative that communicates their disdain for us without stepping over the line. If the other side won’t pick up this option and instead persists in its un-civil behavior of using ‘denier,” we would then be in a position to scold them about it–and score a point with the audience.
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Well, then maybe we should start with Robert Brown. Here (http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/02/29/climate-deniers-are-giving-us-skeptics-a-bad-name/#comment-908378) Robert Brown says: “I absolutely agree with this. Skeptics need to be just as aggressive at policing, and schooling as necessary, “deniers” as they are doing the same with “warmists”.“
Shared this with family the night I saw it posted as a comment! Great stuff Doc.
Wonderful! Demolition of an idiot and the childishly biased journal in which he was allowed to publish!
Oh dear, oh dear, Gail Combs!
You should not say things like that about the UN and the People’s Republic of Cambridge in public! We don’t want them to know we know. Ssshhhh!
/sarc off/ smile… ….Lady in Red
Mods,
All comments are in bold beginning @ur momisugly June 23, 2012 at 4:09 pm Just saying
[REPLY: Thank you. Fixed. -REP]
Thank you for the links, Myrrh. I came to WUWT later and missed apparently a lot of interesting things.
I thought there was 2 AGW narratives about how the CO2 allegedly warms the surface, but there is a third one, and this one is absolutely unbelievable. They claim: “The greenhouse effect has nothing to do with backradiation anyway, so shooting backradiation down would achieve precisely nothing. … Because of greenhouse gases this planetary surface radiating to space is *not* the solid surface, but a fuzzy layer averaging about 6 km up….The temperature gradient combined with the height difference between the surface radiating to space and the solid ground causes a temperature difference, maintained by the external work done by convection, that keeps the ground warmer than the radiating surface.“
Read this carefully: „external work done by convection“! First, convection always drives the warmer air upwards and the cooler air downwards thus cooling the surface and the air near the surface thus lowering the „global temperature“ . And convection is always a product of the surface warming the air by contact. Noway it is external work.
And surface warming (or reduced cooling, whatever) is always a difference in energy. But according to this notion, neither the „greenhouse gases“ nor anything else deliver any addition energy to the surface!
A have never read anything more rediculous that is supposed to be science than that.