I would not have believed this had I not seen this come from this idiot’s Senator’s mouth. Take the three most inefficient and subsidized things in government today, add them together, and there’s no way that spells SUCCESS. It does spell FAIL though.
From Fox News website (via C-SPAN)
As the potential collapse of the United States Postal Service looms on the horizon, one Senate Democrat has proposed an unusual plan to solve the crisis.
Senator Tom Carper (D-DE) looks to harvest the electricity that windmill farms produce in order to power a new fleet of battery-operated postal delivery vehicles, replacing the previous ’25 to 30 years old’ ‘dilapidated’ vehicles.
The Senator admits the idea is “out there” but concludes that “we need to be thinking boldly, and the postal service needs to do that”
Watch the video:
If you are a constituent you need to sound off. The stupidity of this idea is not only robust, it is unprecedented. Electric vehicles do better on long hauls and commutes, stop/start a thousand times a day at each mailbox, not so much.
They’d be FORD’s (Found On Road Discharged) the first day.
(h/t) Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
This was an entertaining thread. The proposal might work in parts of Iowa and West Texas where they have already a lot of wind turbines installed and flat land. As a law maker, Carper should consider laws to increase the supply and decrease the cost of petroleum based fuel.
The Leaf does best, miles per charge, with mild temperatures (no air or heater needed) cruising at 38mph.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf
“Based on third-party test drives carried out in the US, reviewers have found that the range available from a single charge can vary up to 40% in real-world situations; reports vary from about 100 kilometres (62 mi) to almost 222 kilometres (138 mi) depending on driving style, load, traffic conditions, weather (i.e. wind, atmospheric density), and accessory use.[65][66] Nissan tested the Leaf under several scenarios to estimate real-world range figures, and obtained a worst case scenario of 76 kilometres (47 mi) and a best case scenario of 222 kilometres (138 mi). The following table summarizes the results under each scenario tested using EPA’s L4 test cycle and presents EPA rating as a reference:[67][68]”
Web link has the details of the EPA L4 test cycle operating the Leaf under different real-world scenarios[67][68]
The world is full of places where people have done the same job in the same way with oppressive supervisors meddling. Morale is what you make of it. People who are bitter and take their dissatisfaction out on others seem to never get promoted. Funny thing, those are also the same folks who know exactly how many days they have left till retirement. I knew a lot of truly remarkable people in the Postal Service who took each day as a new challenge.
Uh, no. Yes, the Postal Service has contributed billions to the government based on “past, current and future expenses”. Reagon through Clinton touched the USPS hard for cash. Bush, jr. got a shock when he found out that the Postal Service would not be able to make those kind of payments with revenue declining. And forcing the USPS to raise rates so they could withdraw USPS money would give aaway the game.
All employees hired after 1986 and many employees hired before that date are under a complex retirement system. Prior to 1986, employees did not pay into Social Security or Medicare. AFter 1986 they do, so the new retirement system which all Federal employees are under includes figuring Social Security as part of government employees retiremment. One percent of the employees salary is withheld for the defined pension plan. When an employee qualifies for retirement, their years of contributions are added to work out their retirement salary. So thirty years of service and contributing 1% and the retiring employee will receive checks based on 30% of the average of their last three years salary. The government has also initiated a federal version of a 401k benefit plan and there is limited matching of funds deposited by the feds. All of this information is available online in excrucuating detail, so feel free to look it up.
USPS probably should have grabbed onto email as it birthed and sought to enforce the same protections given to first class mail. Maybe it will still figure this part out.
”
No, that was still plain snail mail; just with a different, very expensive telegraph system in between. That was a first class mistake.
Very interesting post, atheok (April 26, 2012 at 3:43 pm); you clearly know whereof you speak. Good story about the Postmaster in Louisiana.
I visit our branch PO every day, and have always been impressed with the good humor and dedication of the people behind the counter (only one these days, often overworked), even despite the inanities of working for a gigantic organization with rules that are sometimes silly.
/Mr Lynn
atheok says:
April 26, 2012 at 3:43 pm
[on “email as it birthed”]
It was reasonably dependable, after all, all us geeks (pre-geeks? no need to be insulting!) depended on it too. The key piece was the last minute addition of a couple of mail related commands (MAIL and MLFL) to the “new” FTP protocol, the current incarnation, ported to the Internet, is still recognizable, though mail stopped flowing through FTP a long time ago, but it was used for longer than I would have expected.
Email to Mom? Nope, nor Dad, and he designed process control computers. Resume to different school or employer? Sure, a lot of people in the ARPAnet community quickly realized they wanted to stay within that community. I left CMU for DEC, but Harvard and CMU codeveloped their network code. Before I moved, Harvard’s main developer left for Xerox-PARC (also on the net), so the Harvard folk were thrilled when they heard I was moving to the area. That was 1974, apparently some of my code was still used at CMU in 1979, see http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc808.html for the state of ARPAnet Email in 1979.
When Email was created in the 1970s it was quite immature, but we got it crawling (and indispensible) pretty quickly. Of course it took a while before I could send a resume to any employer, but we were talking about “email as it birthed.” That the ARPAnet was limited to 64 message passing nodes closely connected to up to four timesharing (typically) systems put some hard limits as to how many employers (and Moms) had access.
Probably, they could have seen mail on ARPAnet, bulletin boards, and UUCP. That and the emerging personal computer and Internet would have provided a lot of room to experiment.
polistra says:
April 26, 2012 at 6:05 am
I think ours is supposed to stop at every house, but I keep the snow off a path between my house and the neighbors so he combines ours. The Concord NH? Manchester SCF? organizations experimented with having some carriers use Segways, a fine New Hampshire product to see if the time savings would balance the cost, but nothing seems to have come from it.
Anthony Watts says: April 25, 2012 at 10:20 pm
I’m only drawing on my own experience with my own electric cars (I’ve had three now) and while I can maybe get 40 miles on a charge in point to point driving, it drops to a little more than half that in stop/go city traffic. Watching the ammeter when starting shows significant power surges, up to 150 amps, which is my max battery output in my current model.
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Anthony: 2 answers to your 2 questions. First, the motor current is high at starting because that’s easier, cheaper, and lighter than a multi-ratio gearbox. High current draw is not a problem, it’s just a design point. Compare it to starting an IC engine car in 4th gear. Full torque at zero RPM from an electric motor is an advantage.
Second, internal combustion engines also get worse mileage or range in stop-and-go traffic. The difference is when you step on the brake, you don’t make gasoline out of exhaust emissions. (not trying to be sarcastic) So in theory, electric vehicles should be better at postal delivery than IC engine cars. But you’re right, the only way is to try 100 of them and compare.
Dan in California says:
April 26, 2012 at 7:25 pm
“Anthony: 2 answers to your 2 questions. First, the motor current is high at starting because that’s easier, cheaper, and lighter than a multi-ratio gearbox. High current draw is not a problem, it’s just a design point. ”
The important part of an EV is not the motor. It’s the battery. If you want your battery to live long, don’t discharge it, and don’t charge it too much.
I know. That sounds like one shouldn’t use it. But that’s what they like best.
DirkH says: April 26, 2012 at 7:46 pm
The important part of an EV is not the motor. It’s the battery. If you want your battery to live long, don’t discharge it, and don’t charge it too much.
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Yup. Deep cycles hurt the total number of cycles. That’s why the battery in an IC engine car lasts a long time. Lots of cranking current, but shallow discharge and recharged almost immediately. Going below 20% SOC (state of charge) in an electric vehicle will really shorten the battery lifetime.
It’s late & I had time only to skim the upstream comments, so advance apologies if any of this is redundant:
Anthony, I also believe you are mistaken about gas vs. electric/city stop & go vs. highway cruisin’:
This agrees pretty much exactly with what an engineer friend told me when he bought his 1st-gen. Prius about 10 years ago. Having made several longish trips in it, I can confirm that it runs mostly in all-electric mode around town, and mostly ICU mode on the highway, with the occasional electric assist. The electric motor doesn’t have enough power for high-speed driving.This includes mountain driving on I-70 west of Denver.
Of course it looks like the good Senator had an all-electric vehicle in mind, which is a slightly different can of worms. Without the continuous recharging of a hybrid, battery discharge rates could be an issue, but OTOH, batteries generally prefer start-stop discharge to long, continuous discharge – start-stop gives them a chance to recover. Most battery powered clocks nowadays use stepping motors (tick, tick, tick . . .) instead of the old continuous motion motors for just that reason, and the much longer battery lives are truly amazing (I mean really amazing – we have one that uses a single AA, which we replace about once every 3 three years). Also, car batteries would probably do most of their charging at night, during the cheaper off-peak hours. I’ve always thought this is a plus for electric vehicles – we’d be making more efficient use of our existing generating capacity, greatly reducing the need for more plants.
Speaking of batteries, replacement would be a major cost – I beleive Toyota wants about $5,000.00 for a Prius replacement pack, although that will undoubtedly come down once production ramps up and after-market suppliers get in on the action. Also, battery replacement costs should be largely off-set by the much-reduced maintenance of electric motors – much simpler & less wear-prone than ICU’s. Of course you only get this benefit w/ all-electric vehicles.
Lastly, has anyone mentioned the lunacy of running an electric vehicle fleet from massively subsidised wind-generated electricity? Which costs, what, 5 times as much as conventional fossil-fuel electricity? But what the hey, the P.O. doesn’t see this cost directly, same as us peons. Out of sight, out of mind.
Ah, the beauty of Government Gone Wild – we all know where the money comes from, but no one really knows where it goes.
TomB says:
April 26, 2012 at 10:42 am
Hank Johnson is my representative. I agree, his statement was loony but (a) Johnson said later he was trying to make a joke and simply did a very poor job of it, and (b) he takes various medications for Hepatitis C which can impair functioning, and (c) before Johnson was elected my was represented by Cynthia McKinney (see here and here.). I view Johnson as an improvement.
Those of you who don’t live in McKinney’s former district will still get the pleasure of seeing her as the Green Party candidate for president this year, where she will advocate eliminating both nuclear and carbon-based energy. Many of us who do live in the district dread the thought of her possible return. Please cut Rep. Johnson a little slack; think of the alternative:
PaddikJ says:
April 27, 2012 at 12:46 am
Speaking of batteries, replacement would be a major cost – I beleive Toyota wants about $5,000.00 for a Prius replacement pack, although that will undoubtedly come down once production ramps up and after-market suppliers get in on the action. Also, battery replacement costs should be largely off-set by the much-reduced maintenance of electric motors – much simpler & less wear-prone than ICU’s. Of course you only get this benefit w/ all-electric vehicles.
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$3K or less to install a NiMH battery in a first or second generation Prius after the warranty period, but the prius is a hybrid that also has a real engine so the battery size is smaller and it’s not Li-Ion.
The price for the Leaf’s battery pack replacement does not seem readily available on-line. I’ve seen a WSJ article that states that the cost just to produce the battery pack is $9K – $18K.
In neither scenario does the cost of maintaining a conventional internal combustion engine “off-set by the much-reduced maintenance of electric motors.” Also a big time Lithium-Ion battery is not some kind of perfectly reliable divice as we can see by the problems with the A123 Lithium Polymer cells produced for the Fisker. A big lithium-ion battery uses fairly complicated and sensitive electronic controlling circuitry, which can fail as individual cells can fail.
.
The whole problem with an electric vehicle is battery charge density. But there are many factors involved in battery technology. The best so far has been the lithium-iron-phosphate version.
Factors involved are:
Batteries in terms of safety; specific energy, also known as capacity; specific power, or the ability to deliver high current on demand; performance, the ability to function at hot and cold temperatures; life span, which includes the number of cycles delivered as well as calendar life; and finally cost.
From batteryuniversity.com:
It is sobering to realize that in terms of output per weight, a battery generates only 1% the energy of fossil fuel. One kilogram (1.4 liter, 0.37 gallons) of gasoline produces roughly 12kWh, whereas a 1kg battery delivers about 120 Wh. We must keep in mind that the electric motor is better than 90% efficient while the IC engine comes in at only about 30%. In spite of this difference, the energy storage capability of a battery will need to double and quadruple before it can compete head-to-head with the IC engine.
No one killed the electric car, it just never lived up to it’s potential. Perhaps a small ICE driven generator to a small bank of LI-Ps to supply power when required. And those large capacitors used for regenerative braking are quite expensive I understand.
Cost presents a major drawback. There is no assurance that the battery’s target price of $250–400 per kWh, which BCG predicts, can be met. The mandated protection circuits for safety, battery managements for status, climate control for longevity and the 8–10-year warranty add to this challenge. The price of the battery alone amounts to the value of a vehicle with IC engine, essentially doubling the price of the EV.
A battery will degrade faster under a quick charge then a slow charge. Maybe someone will invent that fusion powered car featured in Back to the Future. With the present administration it’s back to the past.
Canada is holding up its end with:
– former leader of the federal “Liberal party”, in pontificating about Quebec separation, was unaware that in Canada natural resources, education, and health care are under provincial authority. Hearing that, you won’t be surprised that the party lost badly in the last election.
– Federal cabinet minister cancels hotel room in the fine hotel where the conference she was attending was at (had to pay cancellation fee), instead stays in a far more expensive hotel, and pays for a limo to take her to and from the conference. At taxpayer expense. Duh?
Of course the real fools are the voters who elect them. (In the case of the candidates, they are selected by voters who choose to be party members (in Canada) or some funny process in US.) Empty promises and charisma get them elected, shoveling out money gets them re-elected. (In general the USPS is provides better service than CP, but that’s just saying they “aren’t as bad”.)
As for bringing your mail to a postal vehicle parked on the corner, FYI Canada Post has been using neighbourhood mailbox assemblies for years in newly constructed areas – no door-to-door delivery.
The postal service has been dying since their inconsistency in delivery timing motivated Fred Smith to offer assured delivery for a far higher price. His “Federal Express” company spawned an industry.
(In Canada and Germany the government postal operations purchased air courier companies.) Then along came e-mail to make postal service even less used. Oh, and fax even before all of those. The writing has been on the wall for a loooong time.
As usual in bureaucracies, there are outstanding people. One day I bopped into the USPS in Redmond, a town NE of Seattle WA. Looked dark inside. Then I realized the power was off.
Postal employees kept serving customers, coming out from behind the counter to read addresses by the window wall behind the customer area.
Customers were bringing flashlights in, I heard one say “I’ll pick it up late this afternoon, if I don’t keep it for next time the power goes out.”
Good people get things done – note customers were rewarding their efforts by helping.
(Bad owners try to take advantage of those people, then whine about having difficulty getting employees.)
Electric vs petroleum fuel for postal trucks is just a big distraction. Mail will be obsolete soon, and various other companies are just as effective (often better) at delivering parcels, so the real “solution” is to let the postal service fade into history. If it is dismantled proactively instead of waiting for a shameful debacle, the history books might even be nice.
Obligatory wind powered car post:
As for suitability of electric cars for stop-and-start driving, if they are not then they are not very useful, as commuting is typically stop-start and they don’t have the range for longer distances.
Too much pontificating by people without full perspective. For example, picking on “Robert E. Phelan”, an electric train is a different beast than an electric car/microvan. For a century or more they’ve been used where torque is needed, as in mountains, IIRC the GN built a generating station near Stevens Pass to power electric locomotives (no longer used).
You have to consider particular advantages of each method of doing something. For example, electric trains are good for tunnels, though the GN has long used forced ventilation through the 6-mile tunnel at Stevens Pass WA. Someone mentioned quietness of delivery vehicles, though I expect you have to watch whine. Someone mentioned warmup, without which usage is hard on IC engines.
Vehicles for postal walking routes sit a lot in my neighbourhood, as door-to-door mail deliverers walk long loops, so range on a recharge is not a problem. The vehicle gets them from the sorting location to the neighbourhood, gives them a ready storage location for more mail, and re-positions them in areas that are chopped-up or have long blocks (both the case in my neighbourhood). Alternatives include lock boxes where bags are stashed by another postal vehicle with the deliverer taking the bus to the neighbourhood. Apparently having a dedicated vehicle works better with today’s labour rates (the bus takes a long time). But I see variations, depending on circumstance (I see taxis dropping fill-in deliverers off, recently saw what appeared to be someone in a private car putting a bag in a lock box).