Fundamental questions on Isostasy and Mean Sea-Level

Guest post by Andi Cockroft

Firstly, let me declare that I am not a current student of Geology or Geophysics. I studied Mathematics, Computer Science and Geology at University way back in the 60’s and I have focused my entire working life in IT. To this day, I still run a small IT company in New Zealand.

I follow the workings of the climate models with interest, since much of my University life was spent on Numerical Analysis and Stochastical Processing – the pre-cursors to today’s modelling. Although back then, Computer power was measured in kilo-flops, and the first mainframe I worked on was 20K. A 1Mb mainframe was but a pipe-dream – our biggest was 128K.

On the other hand, my groundings in Geology were at a time when my Professor was still agnostic about plate tectonics (although my tutor was an avid proponent thankfully). It was a time when magnetic striping of the mid-Atlantic was known but not totally understood. It was also a time when isostacy (although an old theory) was finding new support.

So, I offer this post not as any particular expert in the field, but rather to stimulate discussion from those far more familiarity with the concepts than I – please feel free to correct my impressions and limited understanding of the various topics

All I am proposing here are some of the fundamental questions that bother me regarding Isostacy, melting or re-freezing ice-caps and the effect on global mean sea-level (GMSL).

Firstly, just what is GMSL? I don’t believe it can ever be measured against one specific location on the globe – for just about everywhere on this planet is in motion to some degree or other – north/south, east-west, up/down – although our impression is of a stable terra-firma, geologically speaking it isn’t – it is more like the skin of a rice-pudding floating on the more fluid layers below.

If you ever played with your rice-pudding as a child, let the skin form and then pressed on it with your spoon? Press on one place and the skin will rise in another. So the Earth responds to increasing or decreasing pressures (or mass) on its crust.

The earth’s crust (or lithosphere) “floats” on the more fluid asthenosphere. The thickness and relative buoyancy of that part of the lithosphere will determine just how high or low it will “float”. When the buoyancy is in balance, it is said to be in isostatic equilibrium. There are many places that still today are not in isostatic equilibrium.

image

In terms of mountain building, where for instance the Indian plate is hurtling northwards into the Eurasian plate giving rise to the Himalaya Mountains – the gravity measurements tell us that just like an iceberg, there is just as much if not more “Everest” below the crust as there is above it – the buoyancy of that extra material below is needed to support the weight of the Mountain Range above.

Imagine ice floating in a bath – add more weight on top and the ice will sink such that the Archimedes principle of displacement is yet again in equilibrium. Indeed, add too much weight and the whole iceberg will sink regardless – but that’s a diversion (think 2Km thick glacier!)

So back to the question – what is GMSL? To my way of understanding, it can only be measured against a theoretical spot, and must in this age of satellite and gps be measured relative to a reference datum and/or the calculated centre of the earth. Since the earth is not a true sphere – it is I believe referred to as an “oblate spheroid” – the averaging out of these measurements must be translated back into local datum to be able to measure against tide-gauges etc.

Then again, I have always maintained that Sea-Level is a local phenomenon – for many reasons.

Tides, temperature, winds, air-pressure as well as such phenomena such as ENSO etc

But given that statements implying GMSL was 300’ lower than today during the last ice-age, I ask the question – “but what was the real or relative sea-level back then in say New York State?” – in places under Kilometres of ice apparently. Certainly what is now the Great Lakes was inundated by huge ice flows.

That sheer weight of ice would have had the effect of pushing the underlying land-mass downward, to some extent counteracting the drop in GMSL – in fact (just in my imagination) – I believe that these areas would have been significantly below GMSL even with its 300’ decline.

Sorry I do not have the knowledge to do the calculation, but I hope here that group-science can answer the question.

There have been statements that New York was about 150 – 200 Kilometres inland during the last Ice Age 20,000 years ago – but would it have been? Wouldn’t Isostacy have taken the land-mass down with it?

One of the problems faced by modern day measurements of GMSL, is that Isostacy is still at work.

Remove the massive ice-flows from ice-age North America, and the continental land mass does not rebound instantly – it rebounds (uplifts) slowly – it is still rebounding today. As things equal themselves out over Geologic time, the land masses continue to rise, and as a counter, the ocean basins are actually falling. In other words, the oceans themselves gain a greater capacity to store water.

This expansion needs some accounting for, and this Global Isostacy Adjustment (GIA) is estimated at about the equivalent of 0.3 mm per year in GMSL, this at least partially offsets the predicted 3mm per year expansion of the oceans due to warming (that seems to have paused just now). Indeed, if thermal expansion of the oceans has paused, GIA will continue unabated and actually serve to lower observed GMSL.

All of this is a very roundabout way of me arguing that Sea Level is a local phenomenon, and calculating a GMSL whilst academically interesting serves no actual use. Certainly not in terms of Government and Policy decision-making.

imageIn England, long before Liverpool was ever heard of, the River Dee provided the main shipping for the North West. First Chester (used by the Romans), then further out to Burton and Neston and ultimately Parkgate were the main points of embarkation for Ireland. Visit Parkgate today, and the sea is many hundreds of metres away with a huge salt marsh in between.

In New Zealand, where I have lived this past quarter-century, there are many places where erosion is eating into the coast and houses are inexorably marching towards oblivion. In others, accretion of up to 1 metre per year is extending the land-mass ever seaward.

image

Yet Local Government in these areas is focused almost entirely on projected changes to GMSL rather than what is physically happening.

The local authority here is planning on Climate Change bringing inundation despite all the evidence that the sea is retreating !!!

imageHowever, I digress. Looking further at Geologic Changes, and back to Isostacy for a moment, where two tectonic plates collide, one usually will ride over whilst the other suffers subduction. This is where we will find seismically active areas (sadly Christchurch here and many more such as Japan, China etc). We will also likely find mountain-building – as mentioned earlier, the Indian plate is still moving northward (150mm or 6” pa), and the Himalayas are still rising (5mm or 0.2” pa) – in geological terms still very active.

At the same time, the subduction zone may well create significant volcanic activity – New Zealand has its fair share.

But just about anywhere plates collide will see some degree of uplift. Again using New Zealand as an example, the main mountain range in the South Island is the Southern Alps. Current measurements show an uplift rate of about 7mm per year.

How this translates into vertical movement at either east or west coast I have been unable to determine, but it has to be happening, and ongoing.

In Wellington, the biggest recorded earthquake was a magnitude 8.2 in 1855. This uplifted the east of the City between 2 and 3 metres. Today’s airport is built on this uplifted land, and the current business district sits on reclaimed marshland exposed at that time.

Wandering along Wellington’s Lambton Quay (where boats used to dock), reveals brass plaques set into the pavement showing the shoreline in 1840 – the current Quay is about 300 metres away.

Given the magnitude of that earthquake, I suspect Wellington’s rate of uplift over larger time-intervals will be outpacing GMSL, but I could be wrong. By thesis, Cole (2010) identifies a shift in vertical position around 1944 – this following two large earthquakes in the preceding years.

There is nothing to suggest that Wellington’s upward thrust (to the east of the Wellington Fault) has ceased, so the next “big one” will likely see further uplift and hence a relative drop in Sea Level.

Local effects of Plate collisions, Isostacy rebound (eg Great lakes) etc., all serve to modify the impact of GMSL .

If we are to believe recent reports, some of the small Island Nations such as the Maldives may in fact be growing rather than being swamped under an ever-rising tide. Explain that one – I understand coral growth may be at work here but I’ve not seen anything truly convincing yet.

In other places, we are seeing true inundation but usually accompanied by more rational explanation such as pumping ground water.

So is the observed increase in GMSL of 3mm pa actually causing any significantly observable effects?

I remember the Thames Barrier being built to protect London from inundation, but that was to protect against a storm surge – where a massive low pressure system in the North Sea causes a correspondingly massive increase in local Sea Level. This is of the order of metres, not 300mm per century.

And one final question. As Cole (2010) discovered, atmospheric pressure has been falling over time.

image

Ill-equipped as I am to perform the calculations, is this drop in barometric pressure yet one more factor affecting the calculation for GMSL?

As I said at the start, I do not have the skills necessary to answer these and many other questions posed above – just taking a leaf out of “justthefacts” methods – and asking from you the pundits to engage and answer via group-science. Be kind for I am not as used to this medium as Anthony and other major players.

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153 Comments
Jon
March 4, 2012 12:26 pm

Less moisture in the atmosphere less air pressure?
But the major problem is that I really cant see anny decreace in local sealevel preassure regional, so whay should it then be global?

Paul Marko
March 4, 2012 1:01 pm

The most reliable geographic areas to measure eustatic sea level change would be on the lee side of techtonic plate motion, on stable platforms away from large sediment influxes from major river systems. This would be the east coast of North and South America some distance from the Amazon Delta, and the west coasts of Europe and Africa away from the Congo Delta. All four continents are riding quietly away from the Mid-Atlantic Ridge with negligible vertical movement at their boundaries.

Pluck
Reply to  Paul Marko
March 4, 2012 1:55 pm

Good point, Paul Marko: I mentioned in an earlier comment that I live less than 2 meters above sea level and less than 2 meters from the sea’s edge. If the sea level rises or the sea level falls, either way it is going to greatly damage the property value of my residence. I live on an estuary off of the Chesapeake Bay, in Seaford, Virginia, which is on the east coast of North America. Though we live on the edge of a continent, there is no subduction within a few thousand miles. The last big thing here was an asteroid impact some 35 million years ago. I cannot attest to that as I wasn’t here then. But there are some indications of modern uplift. Notably, if you visit the Cornwallis Cave (of Revlolutionary war fame) in Yorktown, Virginia, the coquiana in which the cave (a very shallow cave) is set shows a peculiar south-south-west strike which has always set me to wondering how and why. The sea rises and falls in my backyard about one meter twice a day. When the wind shifts and blows strong from the east, the sea can flood my entire backyard. That is not unusual in this neck of the woods. Also, as a clarification, when I say that the sea is in my backyard, that is not entirely accurate. The water is brackish, a mixture of fresh and sea water. Sea water salinity usually is 35 to 40 ppt with the Mediterranean and Red Seas being at the high end. When I have measured the salinity in our backyard, it has always been close to 17 ppt.

clipe
March 4, 2012 1:15 pm
Malcolm Miller
March 4, 2012 1:19 pm

Fifty years ago I worked in an observatoey unit which measured the irregular rotation of the Earth. This measurement has become much easier since the introduction of GPS satellites, but the causes of the irregularities are still not perfectly known. The astronomers and mathematicians I worked with had never heard of isostasy (I had studied geology). I had to explain that isostatic movements and lack of isostatic equilibrium caused small changes in the planet’s moment of inertia, and hence in the LOD (length of day).

March 4, 2012 1:38 pm

In regard to the chart on the global mean atmospheric pressure (Fig. 5.8) in the root post:
davidmhoffer talks of precision of measurement. A correction of .16 millibars is needed for every 1 degree C when reading a mercury barometer with a brass scale.
When we consider the geologic record for warming vs CO2 signals, I frequently see the ppm value of CO2, but seldom do I see estimates of total atmospheric pressure or CO2 partail pressure. Off hand, I think it matters a great deal to the study of climate history whether a given CO2 concentration occurs in a 1013 milibar atmosphere or one of 5000 milibar. I think the question of atmospheric pressure in the geologic record is addressed too little. Who among you when visiting the local Museum of Natural History can remember seeing a discussion of the Cretaceous atmosphere nearby or below the 20+ foot wing span of a giant flying quetzalcoatlus that hangs above your head? http://levenspiel.com/octave/dinosaur4.htm
“‘The Present is Key to the Past.’ Don’t you believe it!'” said my geology professor. “Two billion years ago, the world was without free oxygen.” What oxygen was being created was quickly consumed to precipitate iron in solution into beds of iron ore.

Dave Wendt
March 4, 2012 1:38 pm

Brian H says:
March 4, 2012 at 2:41 am
Dave Wendt;
the 1mbar : 1 cm ratio requires some justification. If that’s global, where is the water being moved to/from? Or is that a compressibility factor? I know water, especially saline, is slightly compressible, but that much?
That argument would come into play if we were talking about global atmospheric pressures which were completely uniform. The Cole graph is of annual global mean pressures which suggests a slight shift of the balance between highs and lows, so a shift in GMSL as a result is clearly possible.
Personally I consider the notion that we can “know” GMSL to millimeter level accuracy a statistical fantasy. Go to your pocket, or wherever you keep your small change, and grab a couple dimes. Stack those two dimes on a flat surface and look at them. Now consider any experiences you may have had of the oceans of the world, even if the closest you’ve ever come to them is watching reality shows about crab fishermen. Now actually try to think about resolving the mean height of all the surfaces of all the world’s oceans to the height of those two dimes. Some additional points to ponder are that because of the altitude the satellites orbit at (1336 km) each individual ranging ping has a footprint when it hits the surface of between 2 and 10 square miles, depending on atmospheric conditions and whose estimates you choose to believe. The sats are pinging multiple times per second, but the surface is changing chaotically even faster. I used to work in the surveying biz years ago and a common technique we used to try to achieve slightly better accuracy than the limits of our instruments was to repeat each measurement a number of times and take an average. The satellite altimeters take a huge number of measurements, but none of them is ever an exact repeat of any other, so that technique is not applicable. The basis for the calculated GMSL anomalies is not the planet itself, but to a reference ellipsoid and the undulations of the Geoid, both of which are imaginary abstractions which have only a fairly vague relationship to any reaiity of the actual planet,
Don’t get me wrong. I think these sats, particularly the latest JASON2 units, are some of the finest achievements of human technology ever created. The problem, as I see it, is a basic weakness in human mentality. When you spend years working all day every day with massive quantities of numbers it becomes very difficult for any human, and I include myself, to avoid falling into the trap of believing those numbers are a more “real” reality than the actual reality. It is an absolute necessity to be aware of our mind’s tendency to conflate precision and accuracy.
The various satellite systems that are providing data for us about what is happening on the planet are some of the most valuable tools we have available but, when attempting to use or argue about all that data they provide, it isalways incumbent on all of us to constantly remind ourselves that that data is almost never anywhere near as accurate as those providing it would suggest. I always suggest for anyone really interested in the area of sea level measurement that they devote some time with this document
http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/sog/Jason2/userhandbook_4.pdf
It’s the JASON2 data products handbook and it provides loads of very useful information about the actual process used to produce this data. It is fairly lengthy and in parts quite technical, but if you’re willing to invest some time and have a reasonably critical eye, it will give you a pretty strong basis for discussing this topic.

Pluck
Reply to  Dave Wendt
March 4, 2012 2:46 pm

Dave Wendt: Very nice comment. Wow. You said a lot of good things, things which may be new to a majority of readers, but things which all readers need to remind themselves of. Those of us who engage in the art of measuring, we need to be have a conciousness of the sources of error, both random and systematic. I guess that the word error is too strong and implies deceitfulness or a lack of care. That is not true or generally correct. Consider one of my favorite scientists of all times: Hipparchus. I know very little about the man and apparently no copies of his works have survived to this day. Nevertheless, from references to his work, it seems that he managed to make some very remarkable and astute observations as to the motion of the sun, the moon and the stars. The most impressive observation was that the moon did not follow an orbit centered on him, but centered on some point beneath his feet. I cannot find a reference for this at the moment. It is a statement I heard ascribed to him. As astute as Hipparchus was, there are errors in his observations attributable to atmoshperic refratction. We cannot find fault with Hipparchus for this. Atmospheric refraction of light was not known, and not knowable, at the time. We all need to accept that inexplicable, unknowable factors in our measurements may be in play. For instance, consider zero-point depression in glass thermometers.

Agile Aspect
March 4, 2012 2:05 pm

And one final question. As Cole (2010) discovered, atmospheric pressure has been falling over time.
;————————————————————————————————————————
There was no reference in the thesis to the study which produced the graph other than a comment in the body indicating the data (or the image?) came from the CRU.
A total of 1.4 mb difference over 100 years and no error bars – I’d classify it as an urban legend.

Auto
March 4, 2012 2:06 pm

Much of the above commentary – stemming from, effectively, a simple query, “What is mean sea level?”, of five words, none over five letters, and huge credit to Andi – is right.
We don’t know.
There are – as noted – many variables. We probably do not yet know all of them.
We have, at best, an imprecise idea of a few of their interactions.
In England, where I live, we get weather – which is hard to forecast; and climate, which seems to be drying out, at least in the south-east, round London. but it’s probably not systemically different from the time Stonehenge was built.
And, crucially, today is not VERY different from 1000 or 1000 000 years ago.
And we don’t eally know why.

Philip Bradley
March 4, 2012 2:13 pm

A significant issue with tide gauges is that they have a location bias. Ports of any size are generally located adjacent to populated areas, which is normally flatter land and as a general rule flat land is flat because it is subsiding, due to isostacy or tectonic uplift elsewhere, eg SE England and Bangladesh.
Add in that many ports are built on landfill which settles over time, and sea level will rise at a substantial number of, and probably most, tide gauges due to land subsidence.

kbray in california
March 4, 2012 2:19 pm

Suppose the entire atmosphere on the planet were to quickly jump up 10 degrees celsius.
The atmosphere should expand further out into space and become less dense due to the heat.
Since it is less dense and there would be fewer molecules in the column of air above me, all the way to the top of the atmosphere, allowing the air pressure to read less.
The mass would be the same, it would “weigh” the same, only the pressure would be less.
To argue that there would be no change in air pressure seems to counter logic.
Air pressure is variable. The weight of the air, and the mass of the air are not variable.
Is there another explanation?

Kev-in-UK
March 4, 2012 2:23 pm

Dave Wendt says:
March 4, 2012 at 1:38 pm
I personally don’t think there is a cat in hells chance of obtaining a realistic GMSL, let alone define some error bars or precision to that figure and then continue over a period of time to accurately measure it! I have the same issue with mean temp anomaly and we KNOW how much that is fecked around with by Messrs GISS et al!
Sure, it would be nice to know if GMSL is rising or falling, but only if it is extremely fast! – like a few metres in a century or so – oh, wait a minute, isn’t that a Gore/IPCC type prediction? Haha!
I am not a conspiracy theorist by any means – but when someone (or some ‘body’) starts to use a highly variable, suspect and largely imaginary ‘metric’ – it starts to look as if there must be some form of agenda in the background.
I simply cannot think of a suitable ‘metric’ analogy to impart the daftness of a global mean sea level. Just thinking of the gazillions of cubic metres of water in the world, and then saying that you ‘know’ where it is because you have measured it, and can then define a GMSL figure to high levels of accuracy seems simply absurd IMO!
cheers
Kev

Agile Aspect
March 4, 2012 2:28 pm

kbray in california says:
March 3, 2012 at 8:55 pm
Why don’t we fill all tires with CO2 instead ? A good sequester for CO2 and perfect as a fire extinguisher if you ever have an engine fire… a rubber hose with a nozzle… that would be handy and dandy. And imagine the recycling fees on a tire full of toxic CO2 poison. The taxman and the UN warmers will love it.
;————————————————————————————————————
I carry CO2 cartridge and bicycle tube as a quick fix if I get a flat on my bicycle.
The problem with CO2 is it has a high thermal expansion coefficient (compared to nitrogen) which means when the tire cools it nearly goes flat. I end up draining the CO2 and replacing it with air.

March 4, 2012 4:07 pm

I ike this one: a 75 million year old mosasaur was found in Lethbridge this winter (the second one actually). Mosasaurs were ocean-going reptiles that could be 6 to 7 metres long.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/alberta-dinosaur-museum-finds-rare-fossil-of-prehistoric-marine-reptile-141134343.html
Lethbridge is currently 3,000 feet above sea level.
Okay, over 75 million years, the near-by Rockies were uplifting, but even 75 million years ago, the City was much higher than today’s sea level.
The centre of North America was flooded by the Ocean from Texas to Inuvik as was Europe and North Africa and the entire Middle East. Sea level was 250 metres higher than today.
The Atlantic was just a young ocean basin at the time and was not as deep as it is now. The average depth of all the Ocean basins was just less than today and the Ocean had nowhere to go but up onto the Land. The Atlantic is still sinking into the mantle today, at least at the mid-oceanic ridge, and sea level should continue falling until a new ocean basin develops (the Red Sea and the Great Rift Valley).
Lots to take into account.

March 4, 2012 4:21 pm

crosspatch says:
March 3, 2012 at 5:50 pm
Obviously wrong. Since 1976, Japanese cars have made up more of the fleet of cars in the world. Now, motor vehicles burn O2 and produce CO2 plus H2O (octane is typically burned also, as C8H18.
So, a chemical reaction would be:
2 C8H18 + 25 O2 =>
16 CO2 + 18 H2O.
Now, the 18 H2O will fall as rain, and the 25 O2 = 25 * 32 = 800 mass units, while the 16 CO2 = 16 * 44 = 704 mass units, so the greater fuel efficiency clearly leads to an extra 800 – 704 = 96 mass units remaining in the atmosphere, or 48 mass units for each molecule of octane C8H18 that is not burned. So the net effect of more Japanese autos burning less fuel should be an increase in air pressure, not a decrease. WUWT?
I was going to add that higher temperatures should lead to higher pressures also, until I calculated the thermodynamics of each of the molecules in the atmosphere in my general circulation model (GCM) of Earth, including radiation, conduction, and convection, and realized that in the absence of any new net molecules in the atmosphere, that the fast molecules would rise a little bit, thus raising the entire atmosphere by an average of a few dozen meters, decreasing the sea level density by an amount exactly equal to the square of the increase in average speed, thus rendering the pressure the same, or something like that.

Joachim Seifert
Reply to  Thomas L
March 4, 2012 4:51 pm

The only good answer to the decreasing air pressure whilst fossil fuel burning amounts to
injection of heavy molecules is that there is a heavy atmospheric mass loss on the top
of the atmosphere…see post: “A giant veil of cold plasma… detected….”
The Sun burns heavily and smashes molecules into plasma and electrones…..and cannot
grow in vertical extent……
These heavy losses are set to nil in IPCC GCMs, because a mass loss would show
a lowering of global warming, which they do not want, only radiation losses are talked about…..

March 4, 2012 4:33 pm

PS – I’m not sure my general circulation model remains valid in the presence of butterflies in Earth’s atmosphere, as the model produces widely divergent results when let run over a 14 day period depending on the direction each butterfly is flying in my initial conditions, so I’ll need a grant to obtain more supercomputing power (I figure a factor of 10^60 for each butterfly-second) in order to correctly model the atmosphere over periods of time greater than the Planck distance divided by c.
PPS – I’ll also need to model the Feynman sum over histories of each neutrino passing through the Earth, correcting for each observed neutrino.

Dave Wendt
March 4, 2012 5:24 pm

Pluck says:
March 4, 2012 at 2:46 pm
To my mind the primary indication that rising sea level is not a real problem is the herculean effort made to claim that we can measure it to the millimeter. That ubiquitous graphic of rising sea level with its dramatic slope is only possible if people can be convinced of that faulty premise. In the JASON2 data handbook that I referenced above they claim that they hope to achieve a RMS of +/- 3.4 CENTIMETERS for the data they provide. If you slap that error bar on that sea level rise graph it nicely covers the whole range of the history of the measure. If they are actually able to achieve that level of accuracy, it would likely make the present data at least 2 orders of magnitude better than that provided by the TOPEX/ POSIEDON generation of satellites because of the dramatic improvements in orbital accuracy and atmospheric corrections of the latest effort. Trying to weave such disparate data into a continuous record is a fool’s errand
In reality the only places where sea level measurements are even relevant is at any piece of occupied coast, The satellites are completely incompetent at making measurements there, mostly because of the signal footprint problem I mentioned above. Unless you are on one of the world’s numerous small islands and atolls, what the level of the seas is doing far out from where you live is completely meaningless. If you live somewhere where the the level of the sea is becoming a problem, which areas are fairly rare, odds are it is because of what the land you occupy is doing and has little to do with what the oceans are doing.

March 4, 2012 6:48 pm

a thought provoking article.
I wonder about the antarctic peninsula.
it has lost ice, therefore is rising.
the circular air and water currents in the region are eroding land and seabed mass, therefore increasing said currents.
there is active volcanism, (climate triggers).
will the movement of tectonic plates (sth america) increase size and strength of currents ?
my understanding is that ice did not accumulate on antarctica until the separation of plates allowed clear passage of air and sea currents.
I reduced the text in this link because there was too much of it. at present I can’t rename it to ‘here’, but of course you can paste the text into a ‘google box’ to access the map. http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://geology.com/world/antarctica-map.jpg&imgrefurl=http://geology.com/world/antarctica-satellite-image.
ridiculous though it may be, what are the numbers and effects around the conversion of antarctic ice to 1) water, 2) gas ?
I had a brief ‘aha’ moment, thinking about the reducing atmospheric pressure. during the dinosaur era, atmospheric pressure was much higher. does our current reduction extend that far back ?
what are the likely mechanisms for increasing atmospheric pressure, and is there an optimum pressure, were we to have geo-engineering ability ?

March 4, 2012 6:58 pm

Many thanks for the thoughtful article. Well written. Having a MS & BSEE in process measurement & feedback & control systems (40yrs), the measurement of variables & inherent feedback systems have always been of great interest to me. As applied to earth & physical sciences, it is readily observable that there are an incredible number of dynamic non-linear forces (equations) and systems that are interacting with each other in ways (multi-dimensional matrix) that we are only now beginning to grasp. Fortunately we now have the basic instrumentation and communications to measure, record and analyze the data…. but we are just starting the data collection process. If we had a couple hundred years of data under our belts, we might be able to start to evaluate system dynamics. I guess that’s the fun & challenge of studying physical science…we are in a very steep learning curve, trying to make sense of the system interactions.
As a side-light… my wife and I visited the ancient Med. seaport of Ephesus in Turkey a few years back. While this was a seaport 2000 yrs ago, it is now a long distance inland. The classical explanation is sedimentation and river siltation, but since Turkey is also an area of active tectonic plate uplift activity, I have often wondered how much of the elevation displacement was due to plate uplift.

March 4, 2012 7:29 pm

I hope this is relevent to your discussion . i have for many years now studied sites like this one concerning global change . one thing i have noticed is the time scales concerning things such as global warming /atmospheric pressure /earths magnetic field/ . all seemed to change significantly in the mid 80 s . global warming [government told us in the 80 s] was our fault for mainly emmisions . this is not true . If it was then it must be true that dinosaurs were wiped out by there own emissions and not a earth impact . it seems that cattle alone emits more gases into the atmosphere than vehicles do . now look how many and how big dinosaurs were on the earth . BUT what we need to ask ourselves is why have we studied what we learn . what is the outcome and what can we do about it . It seems that at present our environment is definately going to sh*t and we are doing and saying nothing about it . one thing is for sure its affecting our atitudes . more aggresion…

Roger Carr
March 4, 2012 7:52 pm

michael says: “i have for many years now studied sites like this one concerning global change . […] It seems that at present our environment is definately going to sh*t and we are doing and saying nothing about it”
I do not believe you have been studying sites like WUWT? for many years, Michael.
You would not be able to type that last sentence I have quoted from you above if you had.

March 4, 2012 7:58 pm

kbray in california says:
March 4, 2012 at 2:19 pm

To argue that there would be no change in air pressure seems to counter logic.
Air pressure is variable. The weight of the air, and the mass of the air are not variable.
Is there another explanation?

Global air pressure and mass, ignoring loss to space etc., are not variable. Local air pressure is variable because warm light air pushes cold heavy air aside.
If you heat the whole atmosphere uniformly, the effect on air pressure would be minimal, mainly due to the lesser “weight” of molecules at higher altitude (1/r^2g effect). Negligible.
According to N&Z, btw, the atmosphere would contrive to dump that extra heat quite quickly.

March 4, 2012 7:59 pm

Correction: “pushes cold heavy air aside, or vice versa. …”

Marine_Shale
March 4, 2012 9:42 pm

This is a very interesting topic. I remember a couple of years ago I was reading the annual Pacific Island sea level reports put out by the Australian Bureau of Meteorology and I was surprised to see that the 1997/1998 El Nino had caused a sea level fall of 35 centimetres (yes 13.7 inches) that kept the sea level anomaly in the Pacific Island region negative for about three years; That’s a pretty dynamic system were looking at.
I also find the whole concept of plate tectonics and deep time really fascinating
That is why I chose the blog name that I did. I love the fact that the summit of Mount Everest is made of marine shale and there are shells there.
Marine_Shale

Joachim Seifert
Reply to  Marine_Shale
March 5, 2012 8:33 am

To Marine_shale:
This sediments in the Himalayans clearly prover that in plate tectonics the plates do not
slide one below the other but rather pound each other until the softest goes up…..
Only where plates drift away from each other there is an annual growing opening crevasse
where the expanding Earth volume/size occurs……
This is a process of lowering the sea level, whereas others as thermal expansion
leads to increase [maybe] or land ground water usage discharged into the oceans….

elbapo
March 5, 2012 4:08 am

I live in Chester, England and formerly lived near to Parkgate mentioned above, and as a regurlar visitor to this blog I was surprised and delighted to see a photograph of Parkgate on here today. I can confirm it is an amazing and bizarre exprerience to visit the former seaside promenade, where it apprears someone has photoshpped out the sea and replaced this with grassland amost as far as the eye can see – and old photographs of fishing activity as recently as the 1930’s. I would reccommend a visit – still great fish and chips and ice cream served as if it were a seaside town!
One explanation for this is that the dee estuary was once the site of a massive glacier during the ice age, which could have pressed down on the (now) riverbed. However raise in river bed level is just one factor. The now lack of glacier also means the dee estuary is too big to be maintained by the scour of the relatively small dee river and tidal scour – so silting became intevitable over time. The remarkable regression of the sea near parkgate in recent years is mostly attributed therefore to silting and and added mass due to vegetation taking hold. This is most pronouced at parkgate due to the course of the river being rerouted and dredged toward the welsh side of the estuary in the 17th century as an attempt to allow shipping access to Chester to be maintained. You can see the rerouting clearly on google earth and appreciate how it would have had this effect on the northern shore of the dee.

elbapo
March 5, 2012 4:18 am

… and I promise you I can spell, apols i scrawled that in a rush!