In Andi Cockroft’s story yesterday Climate Science and Special Relativity he asked a prescient question:
For the general public that does not have an objective scientific bent, how do you tell virtual reality from the real thing?
Dr. Brown responded in comments, which was so well thought out, it benefits everyone by elevating it to full post status, and thus is presented below. Like The Skeptics Case, I highly recommend this one as a “must read”. – Anthony
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Guest post by Dr. Robert Brown, Duke University Physics Department
For the general public that does not have an objective scientific bent, how do you tell virtual reality from the real thing?
That’s a serious problem, actually. Hell, I have an objective scientific bent and I have plenty of trouble with it.
Ultimately, the stock answer is: We should believe the most what we can doubt the least, when we try to doubt very hard, using a mix of experience and consistent reason based on a network of experience-supported best (so far) beliefs.
That’s not very hopeful, but it is accurate. We believe Classical Non-Relativistic Mechanics after Newton invents it, not because it is true but because it works fairly consistently to describe Kepler’s purely observational laws, and (as it is tested) works damn well to describe a lot of quotidian experience as well on a scale less grand than planetary orbits. We encounter trouble with classical mechanics a few hundred years later when it fails to consistently describe blackbody radiation, the photoelectric effect (the one thing Einstein actually got the Nobel Prize for), the spectra of atoms, given Maxwell’s enormously successful addition to the equations of electricity and magnetism and the realization that light is an electromagnetic wave.
Planck, Lorentz, Einstein, Bohr, de Broglie, Schrodinger, Heisenberg and many others successively invent modifications that make space-time far more complex and interesting on the one hand — relativity theory — and mechanics itself far, far more complex than Newton could ever have dreamed. The changes were motivated, not by trying to be cool or win prizes, but by failures of the classical Euclidean theory to explain the data! Basically, Classical flat-space mechanics was doomed the day Maxwell first wrote out the correct-er equations of electrodynamics for the first time. We suddenly had the most amazing unified field theory, one that checked out empirically to phenomenal accuracy, and yet when we applied to cases where it almost had to work certain of its predictions failed spectacularly.
In fact, if Maxwell’s Equations and Newton’s Law were both true, the Universe itself should have existed for something far, far less than a second before collapsing in a massive heat death as stable atoms based on any sort of orbital model were impossible. Also, if Maxwell’s equations and flat spacetime with time an independent variable was correct, the laws of nature would not have had the invariance with respect to reference frame that Newtonian physics had up to that time enjoyed. In particular, moving a charged particle into a different inertial reference frame caused magnetic fields to appear, making it clear that the electric and magnetic fields were not actually vector forms! The entire geometry and tensor nature of space and time in Newtonian physics was all wrong.
This process continues today. Astronomer’s observe the rotational properties of distant galaxies to very high precision using the red shift and blue shift of the stars as they orbit the galactic center. The results don’t seem to agree with Newton’s Law of Gravitation (or for that matter, with Einstein’s equivalent theory of general relativity that views gravitation as curvature of spacetime. Careful studies of neutrinos lead to anomalies, places where theory isn’t consistent with observation. Precise measurements of the rates at which the Universe is expanding at very large length scales (and hence very long times ago, in succession as one looks farther away and back in time at distant galaxies) don’t quite add up to what the simplest theories predict and we expect. Quantum theory and general relativity are fundamentally inconsistent, but nobody knows quite how to make a theory that is “both” in the appropriate limits.
People then try to come up with bigger better theories, ones that explain everything that is well-explained with the old theories but that embrace the new observations and explain them as well. Ideally, the new theories predict new phenomena entirely and a careful search reveals it there where the theory predicts. And all along there are experiments — some of them fabulous and amazing — discovering high temperature superconductors, inventing lasers and masers, determining the properties of neutrinos (so elusive they are almost impossible to measure at all, yet a rather huge fraction of what is going on in the Universe). Some experiments yield results that are verified; others yield results — such as the several times that magnetic monopoles have been “observed” in experiments — that have not been reproducible and are probably spurious and incorrect. Neutrinos that might — even now — have gone faster than light, but again — probably not. A Higgs particle that seems to appear for a moment as a promising bump in an experimental curve and then fades away again, too elusive to be pinned down — so far. Dark matter and dark energy that might explain some of the unusual cosmological observations but a) are only one of several competing explanations; and b) that have yet to be directly observed. The “dark” bit basically means that they don’t interact at all with the electromagnetic field, making them nearly impossible to see — so far.
Physicists therefore usually know better than to believe the very stuff that they peddle. When I teach students introductory physics, I tell them up front — “Everything I’m going to teach you over the next two semesters is basically wrong — but it works, and works amazingly well, right up to where it doesn’t work and we have to find a better, broader explanation.” I also tell them not to believe anything I tell them because I’m telling them, and I’m the professor and therefore I know and its up to them to parrot me and believe it or else. I tell them quite the opposite. Believe me because what I teach you makes sense (is consistent), corresponds at least roughly with your own everyday experience, and because when you check it in the labs and by doing computations that can be compared to e.g. planetary observations, they seem to work. And believe me only with a grain of salt then — because further experiments and observations will eventually prove it all wrong.
That isn’t to say that we don’t believe some things very strongly. I’m a pretty firm believer in gravity, for example. Sure, it isn’t exactly right, or consistent with quantum theory at the smallest and perhaps largest of scales, but it works so very, very well in between and it is almost certainly at least approximately true, true enough in the right milieu. I’m very fond of Maxwell’s Equations and both classical and, in context, quantum theory, as they lead to this amazing description of things like atoms and molecules that is consistent and that works — up to a point — to describe nearly everything we see every day. And so on.
But if somebody were to argue that gravitation isn’t really a perfect force, and deviations at very long length scales are responsible for the observed anomalies in galactic rotation, I’d certainly listen. If the new theory still predicts the old results, explains the anomaly, I’d judge it to be quite possibly true. If it predicted something new and startling, something that was then observed (variations in near-Earth gravitation in the vicinity of Uranium mines, anomalies in the orbits of planets near black holes, unique dynamics in the galactic cores) then I might even promote it to more probably true than Newton’s Law of Gravitation, no matter how successful, simple, and appealing it is. In the end, it isn’t esthetics, it isn’t theoretic consistency, it isn’t empirical support, it is a sort of a blend of all three, something that relies heavily on common sense and human judgement and not so much on a formal rule that tells us truth.
Where does that leave one in the Great Climate Debate? Well, it damn well should leave you skeptical as all hell. I believe in the theory of relativity. Let me explain that — I really, really believe in the theory of relativity. I believe because it works; it explains all sorts of experimental stuff. I can run down a list of experimental observations that are explained by relativity that could scarcely be explained by anything else — factors of two in spin-orbit coupling constants, the tensor forms and invariants of electromagnetism, the observation of -mesons produced from cosmic ray collisions in the upper atmosphere far down near the surface of the Earth where they have no business being found given a lifetime of
microseconds — and observation I personally have made — and of course all the particle accelerators in the known Universe would fail miserably in their engineering if relativity weren’t at least approximately correct. Once you believe in relativity (because it works) it makes some very profound statements about causality, time ordering, and so on — things that might well make all the physics I think that I know inconsistent if it were found to be untrue.
Yet I was — and continue to be — at least willing to entertain the possibility that I might have to chuck the whole damn thing, wrong from top to bottom — all because a silly neutrino in Europe seems to be moving faster than it should ever be aver to move. Violations of causality, messages from the future, who knows what carnage such an observation (verified) might wreak! I’m properly skeptical because what we have observed — so far — works so very consistently, and the result itself seems to be solidly excluded by supernova data already in hand, but you know, my beliefs don’t dictate reality — it is rather the other way around.
The sad thing about the Great Climate Debate is that so far, there hasn’t really been a debate. The result is presented, but no one ever takes questions from the podium and is capable of defending their answers against a knowledgeable and skeptical questioner.
I can do that for all of my beliefs in physics — or at least, most of them — explain particular experiments that seem to verify my beliefs (as I do above). I’m quite capable of demonstrating their consistency both theoretically (with other physical laws and beliefs) and with experiment. I’m up front about where those beliefs fail, where they break down, where we do not know how things really work. Good science admits its limits, and never claims to be “settled” even as it does lead to defensible practice and engineering where it seems to work — for now.
Good science accepts limits on experimental precision. Hell, in physics we have to accept a completely non-classical limitation on experimental precision, one so profound that it sounds like a violation of simple logic to the uninitiated when they first try to understand it. But quite aside from Heisenberg, all experimental apparatus and all measurements are of limited precision, and the most honest answer for many things we might try to measure is “damfino” (damned if I know).
The Great Climate Debate, however, is predicated from the beginning on one things. We know what the global average temperature has been like for the past N years, where N is nearly anything you like. A century. A thousand years. A hundred thousand years. A hundred million years. Four billion years.
We don’t, of course. Not even close. Thermometers have only been around in even moderately reliable form for a bit over 300 years — 250 would be a fairer number — and records of global temperatures measured with even the first, highly inaccurate devices are sparse indeed until maybe 200 years ago. Most of the records from over sixty or seventy years ago are accurate to no more than a degree or two F (a degree C), and some of them are far less accurate than that. As Anthony has explicitly demonstrated, one can confound even a digital electronic automatic recording weather station thermometer capable of at least 0.01 degree resolution by the simple act of setting it up in a stupid place, such as the southwest side of a house right above a concrete driveway where the afternoon sun turns its location into a large reflector oven. Or in the case of early sea temperatures, by virtue of measuring pails of water pulled up from over the side with crude instruments in a driving wind cooling the still wet bulb pulled out of the pail.
In truth, we have moderately accurate thermal records that aren’t really global, but are at least sample a lot of the globe’s surface exclusive of the bulk of the ocean for less than one century. We have accurate records — really accurate records — of the Earth’s surface temperatures on a truly global basis for less than forty years. We have accurate records that include for the first time a glimpse of the thermal profile, in depth, of the ocean, that is less than a decade old and counting, and is (as Willis is pointing out) still highly uncertain no matter what silly precision is being claimed by the early analysts of the data. Even the satellite data — precise as it is, global as it is — is far from free from controversy, as the instrumentation itself in the several satellites that are making the measurements do not agree on the measured temperatures terribly precisely.
In the end, nobody really knows the global average temperature of the Earth’s surface in 2011 within less than around 1K. If anybody claims to, they are full of shit. Perhaps — and a big perhaps it is — they know it more precisely than this relative to a scheme that is used to compute it from global data that is at least consistent and not crazy — but it isn’t even clear that we can define the global average temperature in a way that really makes sense and that different instruments will measure the same way. It is also absolutely incredibly unlikely that our current measurements would in any meaningful way correspond to what the instrumentation of the 18th and 19th century measured and that is turned into global average temperatures, not within more than a degree or two.
This complicates things, given that a degree or two (K) appears to be very close to the natural range of variation of the global average temperature when one does one’s best to compute it from proxy records. Things get more complicated still when all of the best proxy reconstructions in the world get turned over and turned out in favor of “tree ring reconstructions” based upon — if not biased by — a few species of tree from a tiny handful of sites around the world.
The argument there is that tree rings are accurate thermometers. Of course they aren’t — even people in the business have confessed (in climategate letters, IIRC) that if they go into their own back yards and cut down trees and try to reconstruct the temperature of their own back yard based on the rings, it doesn’t work. Trees grow one year because your dog fertilizes them, fail to grow another not because it is cold but because it is dry, grow poorly in a perfect year because a fungus attacks the leaves. If one actually plots tree ring thicknesses over hundreds of years, although there is a very weak signal that might be thermal in nature, there is a hell of a lot of noise — and many, many parts of the world simply don’t have trees that survived to be sampled. Such as the 70% of the Earth’s surface that is covered by the ocean…
But the complication isn’t done yet — the twentieth century perhaps was a period of global warming — at least the period from roughly 1975 to the present where we have reasonably accurate records appears to have warmed a bit — but there were lots of things that made the 20th century, especially the latter half, unique. Two world wars, the invention and widespread use and testing of nuclear bombs that scattered radioactive aerosols throughout the stratosphere, unprecedented deforestation and last but far from least a stretch where the sun appeared to be far more active than it had been at any point in the direct observational record, and (via various radiometric proxies) quite possibly for over 10,000 years. It isn’t clear what normal conditions are for the climate — something that historically appears to be nearly perpetually in a state of at least slow change, warming gradually or cooling gradually, punctuated with periods where the heating or cooling is more abrupt (to the extent the various proxy reconstructions can be trusted as representative of truly global temperature averages) — but it is very clear indeed that the latter 19th through the 20th centuries were far from normal by the standards of the previous ten or twenty centuries.
Yet on top of all of this confounding phenomena — with inaccurate and imprecise thermal records in the era of measurements, far less accurate extrapolations of the measurement era using proxies, with at most 30-40 years of actually accurate and somewhat reproducible global thermal measurements, most of it drawn from the period of a Grand Solar Maximum — climatologists have claimed to find a clear signal of anthropogenic global warming caused strictly by human-produced carbon dioxide. They are — it is claimed — certain that no other phenomena could be the proximate cause of the warming. They are certain when they predict that this warming will continue until a global catastrophe occurs that will kill billions of people unless we act in certain ways now to prevent it.
I’m not certain relativity is correct, but they are certain that catastrophic anthropogenic global warming is a true hypothesis with precise predictions and conclusions. I have learned to doubt numerical simulations that I myself have written that are doing simple, easily understandable things that directly capture certain parts of physics. They are doing far, far more complex numerical simulations — the correct theoretical answer, recall, is a solution to a set of coupled non-Markovian Navier-Stokes equation with a variable external driver and still unknown feedbacks in a chaotic regime with known important variability on multiple decadal or longer timescales — and yet they are certain that their results are correct, given the thirty plus years of accurate global thermal data (plus all of the longer timescale reconstructions or estimates they can produce from the common pool of old data, with all of its uncertainties).
Look, here’s how you can tell — to get back to your question. You compare the predictions of their “catastrophic” theory five, ten, twenty years back to the actual data. If there is good agreement, it is at least possible that they are correct. The greater the deviation between observed reality and their predictions, the more likely it is that their result is at least incorrect if not actual bullshit. That’s all. Accurately predicting the future isn’t proof that they are right, but failing to predict it is pretty strong evidence that they are wrong.
Such a comparison fails. It actually fails way back in the twentieth century, where it fails to predict or explain the cooling from 1945 to roughly 1965-1970. It fails to predict the little ice age. It fails to predict the medieval climate optimum, or the other periods in the last 10,000 years where the proxy record seems to indicate that the world was as warm or warmer than it is today. But even ignoring that — which we can, because those proxy reconstructions are just as doubtful in their own way as the tree-ring reconstructions, with or without a side-serving of confirmation bias to go with your fries — even ignoring that, it fails to explain the 33 or so years of the satellite record, the only arguably reliable measure of actual global temperatures humans have ever made. For the last third of that period, there has been no statistically significant increase in temperature, and it may even be that the temperature has decreased a bit from a 1998 peak. January of 2012 was nearly 0.1C below the 33 year baseline.
This behavior is explainable and understandable, but not in terms of their models, which predicted that the temperature would be considerably warmer, on average, than it appears to be, back when they were predicting the future we are now living. This is evidence that those models are probably wrong, that some of the variables that they have ignored in their theories are important, that some of the equations they have used have incorrect parameters, incorrect feedbacks. How wrong remains to be seen — if global temperatures actually decline for a few years (and stretch out the period with no increase still further in the process) — it could be that their entire model is fundamentally wrong, badly wrong. Or it could be that their models are partially right but had some of the parameters or physics wrong. Or it could even be that the models are completely correct, but neglected confounding things are temporarily masking the ongoing warming that will soon come roaring back with a catastrophic vengeance.
The latter is the story that is being widely told, to keep people from losing faith in a theory that isn’t working — so far — the way that it should. And I have only one objection to that. Keep your hands off of my money while the theory is still unproven and not in terribly good agreement with reality!
Well, I have other objections as well — open up the debate, acknowledge the uncertainties, welcome contradictory theories, stop believing in a set of theoretical results as if climate science is some sort of religion… but we can start with shit-canning the IPCC and the entire complex arrangement of “remedies” to a problem that may well be completely ignorable and utterly destined to take care of itself long before it ever becomes a real problem.
No matter what, we will be producing far less CO_2 in 30 years than we are today. Sheer economics and the advance of physics and technology and engineering will make fossil-fuel burning electrical generators as obsolete as steam trains. Long before we reach any sort of catastrophe — assuming that CAGW is correct — the supposed proximate cause of the catastrophe will be reversing itself without anyone doing anything special to bring it about but make sensible economic choices.
In the meantime, it would be so lovely if we could lose one single phrase in the “debate”. The CAGW theory is not “settled science”. I’m not even sure there is any such thing.
@ur momisugly Robert Brown
A
Even more important is the inability of trees to respond to late moisture, Early (spring) drought is taken by the tree as a message to not respond at all to later moisture availability.
The Pompous Git says:
March 5, 2012 at 12:45 am
Even more important is the inability of trees to respond to late moisture, Early (spring) drought is taken by the tree as a message to not respond at all to later moisture availability.
Aggh, a blast from my conscience. OK, I shall give the field hedge I planted last year the drink of water I thought last week I should give them..
Myrrh says on March 4, 2012 at 1:04 pm
“——————. Maybe it is maybe it isn’t – but what we do know in the real world, tried and tested and used in countless applications, that heat and light are not the same, that they have different properties and processes, act in ways specific to them on meeting matter. We know, in the real world, that the Sun’s thermal energy radiating out to us, heat, is the invisible thermal infrared, and it is distinctly different from visible light. Just as gamma rays are distinctly different from radio waves. They all travel at the speed of electromagnetism. The Sun’s heat reaches us in around 8 minutes. We can feel that because it warms us up, visible light can’t warm us up. Your cartoon world is a joke.”
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Myrrh, I’ll choose to cut “straight to the chase” here – Never mind why a thermos- or vacuum-flask works, – the; “See! You do use the comic cartoon energy budget! … :)” and all the other things as we do more or less agree on most things i.e. K&T 97 is a joke etcetera.
I do not know, so I cannot explain exactly what “energy” is. Although I use it right now and at all other times, even when I sleep, – I know what energy does, where it is stored, what it is used for etc, and also that it always causes motion of/in any mass. – Yet, I challenge anyone to explain exactly what energy is.
You say, as reproduced above: “—–, that heat and light are not the same, that they have different properties and processes, —-“
THAT IS MY POINT PRECISELY!! – And, furthermore, Infra-Red (IR) is light too, so why should that light be different to any other light – just because we humans cannot see it? IR is not invisible to Coco my cat. She always looks around – and then chooses to go straight for the warmest spot – for a snooze. Cats hunt at night, or in the dark – how do you think that is possible? – Heat has got no EM waveband while IR has. Cats cannot see the radiation but they can see its source!
So, as you already know that light is not heat, and can understand that IR is also a light form, then you may understand too that it does not matter if it just so happens – that the Solar Energy which, when it interacts with the surface – causes “molecular motion” that produces “frictional heat” is stored in say, IR and Ultra Violet (UV) or any of the other forms of the sunlight.
Once converted into two other separate forms, i.e. motion and heat, energy cannot change back. So, the basics is “Sunlight” carries energy (which cannot be “LOST”, just converted). Heat can “blow around in the wind”, radiation can not.
I am claiming the dead opposite to be the case! – Infra-Red (IR) is light-raiation and therefore can radiate as EM waves. – All EM waves from the Sun carry some form of energy but never heat, because it is blindingly obvious that heat does not travel at light-speed.
Further to my comments above on the cost of solar, the 2011 version of the EIA levelized cost estimates for new generation systems is now available.

SHORT VERSION:
Combined cycle natural gas, 6.3¢ / kWh
Solar PV, 21.1¢ / kWh
Anyone who claims that solar is competitive with conventional sources without subsidies of a host of kinds is living in a dream world. Solar PV is THREE TIMES AS EXPENSIVE AS CONVENTIONAL POWER, and given the availability of natural gas, solar is very unlikely to EVER be as cheap as conventional power. Even if the panels were totally free, that would still put the price of solar at above 15¢ per kWh … ain’t gonna happen.
w.
O H Dahlsveen says:
March 5, 2012 at 5:39 am
So, as you already know that light is not heat, and can understand that IR is also a light form,
Light is not Heat, nr IR is light. We cannot feel it. It is not thermal energy.
then you may understand too that it does not matter if it just so happens – that the Solar Energy which, when it interacts with the surface – causes “molecular motion” that produces “frictional heat” is stored in say, IR and Ultra Violet (UV) or any of the other forms of the sunlight.
But it doesn’t so happen! It doesn’t so happen because Nr Infrared and Visible and UV are not capable of moving molecules into vibrational state! They are LIGHT not HEAT.
Once converted into two other separate forms, i.e. motion and heat, energy cannot change back. So, the basics is “Sunlight” carries energy (which cannot be “LOST”, just converted). Heat can “blow around in the wind”, radiation can not.
If you had something other than empty space for your atmosphere you could bring in convection…
I am claiming the dead opposite to be the case! – Infra-Red (IR) is light-raiation and therefore can radiate as EM waves. – All EM waves from the Sun carry some form of energy but never heat, because it is blindingly obvious that heat does not travel at light-speed.
Total and utter codswallop. The thermal energy of the Sun travelling to us at the speed of light direct from the Sun is the invisible thermal infrared. THAT is the Sun’s Heat travelling to us at the speed of light. We can feel it direct from the Sun, on a cold but bright late winter day a cloud passing across the Sun cuts it off, when the cloud passes it returns. Thermal infrared, heat, is what is capable of moving molecules of water into vibrational states to heat them up, it takes real heat to do this, our bodies are mostly water and as we absorb this heat direct from the Sun in thermal infrared we warm up inside. That’s real electromagnetic energy in the form of heat direct from the Sun to us.
Visible light is NOT CAPABLE of doing this. That is why the AGWScience Fiction energy budget and its fisics you subscribe to is junk fantasy, the basics are junk science. In the real world and in not your imagine impossible things before breakfast with Alice through the looking glass world, water is a transparent medium for Visible light – it is transmitted through without being absorbed. Your energy budget fisics is a bad joke, visible light from the Sun cannot heat land and oceans.
Myrrh says on March 5, 2012 at 9:49 am:
“If you had something other than empty space for your atmosphere you could bring in convection…”
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I have got air in my atmosphere – and for that reason your heat radiation is not possible.
Fairground fakirs and flame eaters have known for thousands of years that heat is removed from a flame by conduction and convection. –Think about it – if heat was moved by radiation it would be as hot below as it is above any flame. – just light a match and try it out. – Smokers would not die from lung cancer because they would have burnt their faces off after lighting up just a few fags. –
Nor would you be able to light a fire in the grate. – Just admit it: “heat can only be moved by conduction and convection” and that is why the AGW and CAGW is a scam and the K&T97 is a joke.”
So you’ve budged, rather far at that, from no climate change or AGW to no CAGW. We think we’re making some progress–even here at WUWT where reality is rarely faced.
In response to O H Dahlsveen at March 5, 2012 at 5:34 pm, I have a question.
Is the very real thermal energy/heat you feel on that side of you that is facing the sun due to convection or conduction? Remember, that thermal energy passes through space and the atmosphere. Answer: the heat you sense is due to radiation from the sun. Heat is “moved by radiation.” Stand well away from a campfire and you will also feel radiated heat. In fact, every object with a temperature above absolute zero, aka 0 K or about -273 ˚C, radiates thermal energy.
Myrrh says:
March 5, 2012 at 9:49 am
“They are LIGHT not HEAT.”
What a hodgepodge of near-right and outright wrong thinking. You almost seem to get it when you say:
“Thermal infrared, heat, is what is capable of moving molecules of water into vibrational states to heat them up, it takes real heat to do this, our bodies are mostly water and as we absorb this heat direct from the Sun in thermal infrared we warm up inside. “
IR is not “heat”, it is electromagnetic radiation. We feel it heat us up because, as you say, “our bodies are mostly water and as we absorb this heat direct from the Sun in thermal infrared we warm up inside.”. But, other materials absorb other frequency bands not in the IR. Why does a blacktop road look black? Because it is absorbing visible wavelengths, so you see no color coming back at you. And, that makes it heat up, which is why it burns your feet on a hot summer day.
I agreed entirely until the first mention of climate: “The Great Climate Debate, however, is predicated from the beginning on one things.[sic] We know what the global average temperature has been like for the past N years, where N is nearly anything you like. A century. A thousand years. A hundred thousand years. A hundred million years. Four billion years.”
This is a straw man argument.
I try to disbelieve “CAGW” (I’d prefer “potentially catastrophic climate disruption” or PCCD, but I’m willing to settle) every day, as you correctly suggest that any scientifically educated person with a strong interest in such a topic would. Yet I can’t manage it.
The reasoning has relatively little to do with the paleothermometers. The Charney report in 1979 did not draw on paleoclimate or observational global change evidence at all in reaching conclusions that turned out to be remarkably robust.
You may not choose to believe me, but I really wish you could convince me that I am surely wrong, that the climate science community is surely wrong. Though I think the chances are well above 90% that the sensitivity is greater than 1.5 C per doubling, the risk spectrum is alarming enough with only a 10% chance of it. And in the end, articles like this are not about arguing the science.
They are about discrediting the science so as to avoid the policy implications. They like to argue that the consensus is “wrong” rather than being willing to defend a risk spectrum. But I don’t much care whether you like the science or believe in it. What I care about is that you make a realistic assessment of the risk and work toward a rational policy on that basis. If you don’t buy the consensus, you need to say what you are buying instead. That is, you must reason under uncertainty. And I’ve yet to see an argument that makes any sense that large uncertainty is a friend of emissions policy status quo.
No, to avoid a drastic change in emissions policy, you must make a case that the sensitivity is very near zero with great certainty. That or be irrational.
Tobis is nonsensical, again. There is no uncertainty whatsoever about the survival-related consequences of artificially jacking the cost of CO2-generating energy sources in order to suppress demand and use. Mass privation and consequent serious mega-mortality are among them. Some of that has already occurred. OTOH, every past civilization or period of “recorded history” that has experienced warm and cold periods boomed in the former, and struggled or even collapsed in the latter. It is thus inane and insane (contra-survival) not to take that as the Null Hypothesis for current policy.
Michael Tobis says:
March 5, 2012 at 11:35 pm
“… the risk spectrum is alarming enough with only a 10% chance of it.”
You, then, are a sheep who is easily startled. The “risks” of modest warming (which is all anyone is really suggesting) are completely unquantifiable, but quite as likely to be beneficial as not. Actually, far more likely. Past warm ages were called “optimums” for a reason. They were good times.
On the other side, the risks of slowing our economies, employing less efficient means of energy production, and closing off the benefits of industrial development to the world’s poor are real, palpable, quantifiable, and severe. Not to mention effectively certain to come to pass. People are dying because of poverty engendered by this obsessive compulsive disorder demanding massive dislocation over a bit player in the climate. It is not even borderline insanity. It is full blown mass psychosis.
Pierre says on March 5, 2012 at 5:44 pm:
“So you’ve budged, rather far at that, from no climate change or AGW to no CAGW. We think we’re making some progress–even here at WUWT where reality is rarely faced.”
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May I ask; Whom are you addressing?
[snip. Take your juvenile insults elsewhere. ~dbs, mod.]
Pierre says on March 5, 2012 at 6:17 pm
“In response to O H Dahlsveen at March 5, 2012 at 5:34 pm, I have a question.
Is the very real thermal energy/heat you feel on that side of you that is facing the sun due to convection or conduction? Remember, that thermal energy passes through space and the atmosphere.”
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Then Pierre goes on to answer his own question:
“Answer: the heat you sense is due to radiation from the sun. Heat is “moved by radiation.” Stand well away from a campfire and you will also feel radiated heat. In fact, every object with a temperature above absolute zero, aka 0 K or about -273 ˚C, radiates thermal energy.””
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Yes Pierre, quite right; “the heat you sense is due to radiation from the sun.” – It is right because the energy contained in the “radiation from the sun” is stopped and absorbed by whichever body-part is facing it. –
Upon absorbing this extra energy (first your skin) gets “exited” resulting in extra “molecular motion” which causes more friction which again is resulting in more heat creation (your 37 °C + Tx from solar radiation.)
This vibrating heat is then transferred in two directions; inwards, or into your body, and outwards into the air. Now two other things happen. Your body’s Nervous System is sensing the extra heat and sets the sweat-glands into operation. – The sweat takes the heat away from the skin before you “develop a fever” – and die. The heat from your skin itself and from your sweat is then conducted into the air, which in turn takes it away by Convection.
If we were waiting for radiation to take our extra heat away we would go the same way as your water-cooled car (automobile) engine goes if you drain the water off – before you drive off. (Air- cooled engines rely on large metal fins and good air-flow for cooling). – Once again Conduction and Convection rule.
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“In fact”, – you say -, “every object with a temperature above absolute zero, aka 0 K or about -273 ˚C, radiates thermal energy.”
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True, that is, near enough, what the “Law” says and is probably true but remember the 19th century’s physicists who came up with this theory, in the first place, based their theories on Sunlight.
“The electromagnetic spectrum covers an enormous range in wavelengths, from very short waves to very long ones – and they may all contain “Thermal Energy” but the only region of the electromagnetic spectrum to which our eye is sensitive is the “visible” range.
The sun is not the only object that provides radiant energy; any object whose temperature is greater than 0 K will emit some radiant energy but the optimum word here is “some”
You also say: “Stand well away from a campfire and you will also feel radiated heat”
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How many miles/km constitutes “well away”? And what is the Calorific Value of the “campfire”?
You see – I do disagree with you because the temperatures of residual Oxygen & Nitrogen in the Earth’s Thermosphere may be hard to measure but are said to be in the region of 1500 – 2500 °C. – Therefore if EM radiation has lost, say, if we are generous, only ¼ of its energy after travelling nearly 93 million miles through space – and as one of my “crude experiments” (an inverted hot-plate, thermostat controlled at 160 °C) show a complete loss of “Thermal Radiation effect” at a distance of 1220 mm (or 4 feet). – Lab. air moisture content was 42%.
I turned the experimental heat source off after 20 minutes of “Irradiation” as there was no temperature increase at the target thermometer. – It is therefore not likely that any radiation from a surface with an average T of 15 °C is going to reach CO2 at a Tropospheric height of 6 km. – Let alone escape through “The Atmospheric Window” –
Fourier was, most probably right when he said: “The heat of the sun, coming in the form of light, possesses the property of penetrating transparent solids or liquids, and loses this property entirely, when by communication with terres-trial bodies, it is turned into heat radiating without light.”
In other words Water Vapor is king and collects all thermal radiation from the surface by conduction, mostly at close quarters to the surface – irrespective of wavelengths.
Sorry, it should have been: — if we are generous, only ¾ of its energy after travel-ling nearly 93 million miles through space, —
O H Dahlsveen says:
March 6, 2012 at 3:01 pm
“Once again Conduction and Convection rule.”
I really wish guys like you would stop helping us skeptics. You can’t conduct and convect heat into space. Ultimately you have to radiate it away.
Note to alarmists: THIS is the kind of crap we are going to have to put up with in the future because you guys were so cocky, you didn’t look before you leaped. In the near future, science in general will be in utter disrepute, and pseudoscience will rule the day, because the creationists and the homeopaths and all the other zoo inmates will just smile and ask us to explain “Global Warming” again.
Thanks a lot.
Bart, I was going to answer the comment you posted on March 6, 2012 at 4:57 pm, but I have decided against it as I have found it is difficult to do so in a “rational way”
OHD;
Your ill-informed and meaningless experiments are persuasive to no one who understands the “r-squared” phenomenon (I won’t call it a law, because it’s simple geometry).
Your concepts, the questions you pose, the experimental design, the nature and sensitivity of the apparatus, and the analyses are each and every one fatally flawed. One such lack would be too many; all together is a hopeless nonsense. There is no point in discussing them, or in debate.
Perhaps in your next life, your neurological resources will be much improved. The odds are overwhelmingly in your favour!
while the arbiter of scientific debate is a peer reviewed literature that does not support a role for
planets in events on sun & earth then the literature is tainted .