In Andi Cockroft’s story yesterday Climate Science and Special Relativity he asked a prescient question:
For the general public that does not have an objective scientific bent, how do you tell virtual reality from the real thing?
Dr. Brown responded in comments, which was so well thought out, it benefits everyone by elevating it to full post status, and thus is presented below. Like The Skeptics Case, I highly recommend this one as a “must read”. – Anthony
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Guest post by Dr. Robert Brown, Duke University Physics Department
For the general public that does not have an objective scientific bent, how do you tell virtual reality from the real thing?
That’s a serious problem, actually. Hell, I have an objective scientific bent and I have plenty of trouble with it.
Ultimately, the stock answer is: We should believe the most what we can doubt the least, when we try to doubt very hard, using a mix of experience and consistent reason based on a network of experience-supported best (so far) beliefs.
That’s not very hopeful, but it is accurate. We believe Classical Non-Relativistic Mechanics after Newton invents it, not because it is true but because it works fairly consistently to describe Kepler’s purely observational laws, and (as it is tested) works damn well to describe a lot of quotidian experience as well on a scale less grand than planetary orbits. We encounter trouble with classical mechanics a few hundred years later when it fails to consistently describe blackbody radiation, the photoelectric effect (the one thing Einstein actually got the Nobel Prize for), the spectra of atoms, given Maxwell’s enormously successful addition to the equations of electricity and magnetism and the realization that light is an electromagnetic wave.
Planck, Lorentz, Einstein, Bohr, de Broglie, Schrodinger, Heisenberg and many others successively invent modifications that make space-time far more complex and interesting on the one hand — relativity theory — and mechanics itself far, far more complex than Newton could ever have dreamed. The changes were motivated, not by trying to be cool or win prizes, but by failures of the classical Euclidean theory to explain the data! Basically, Classical flat-space mechanics was doomed the day Maxwell first wrote out the correct-er equations of electrodynamics for the first time. We suddenly had the most amazing unified field theory, one that checked out empirically to phenomenal accuracy, and yet when we applied to cases where it almost had to work certain of its predictions failed spectacularly.
In fact, if Maxwell’s Equations and Newton’s Law were both true, the Universe itself should have existed for something far, far less than a second before collapsing in a massive heat death as stable atoms based on any sort of orbital model were impossible. Also, if Maxwell’s equations and flat spacetime with time an independent variable was correct, the laws of nature would not have had the invariance with respect to reference frame that Newtonian physics had up to that time enjoyed. In particular, moving a charged particle into a different inertial reference frame caused magnetic fields to appear, making it clear that the electric and magnetic fields were not actually vector forms! The entire geometry and tensor nature of space and time in Newtonian physics was all wrong.
This process continues today. Astronomer’s observe the rotational properties of distant galaxies to very high precision using the red shift and blue shift of the stars as they orbit the galactic center. The results don’t seem to agree with Newton’s Law of Gravitation (or for that matter, with Einstein’s equivalent theory of general relativity that views gravitation as curvature of spacetime. Careful studies of neutrinos lead to anomalies, places where theory isn’t consistent with observation. Precise measurements of the rates at which the Universe is expanding at very large length scales (and hence very long times ago, in succession as one looks farther away and back in time at distant galaxies) don’t quite add up to what the simplest theories predict and we expect. Quantum theory and general relativity are fundamentally inconsistent, but nobody knows quite how to make a theory that is “both” in the appropriate limits.
People then try to come up with bigger better theories, ones that explain everything that is well-explained with the old theories but that embrace the new observations and explain them as well. Ideally, the new theories predict new phenomena entirely and a careful search reveals it there where the theory predicts. And all along there are experiments — some of them fabulous and amazing — discovering high temperature superconductors, inventing lasers and masers, determining the properties of neutrinos (so elusive they are almost impossible to measure at all, yet a rather huge fraction of what is going on in the Universe). Some experiments yield results that are verified; others yield results — such as the several times that magnetic monopoles have been “observed” in experiments — that have not been reproducible and are probably spurious and incorrect. Neutrinos that might — even now — have gone faster than light, but again — probably not. A Higgs particle that seems to appear for a moment as a promising bump in an experimental curve and then fades away again, too elusive to be pinned down — so far. Dark matter and dark energy that might explain some of the unusual cosmological observations but a) are only one of several competing explanations; and b) that have yet to be directly observed. The “dark” bit basically means that they don’t interact at all with the electromagnetic field, making them nearly impossible to see — so far.
Physicists therefore usually know better than to believe the very stuff that they peddle. When I teach students introductory physics, I tell them up front — “Everything I’m going to teach you over the next two semesters is basically wrong — but it works, and works amazingly well, right up to where it doesn’t work and we have to find a better, broader explanation.” I also tell them not to believe anything I tell them because I’m telling them, and I’m the professor and therefore I know and its up to them to parrot me and believe it or else. I tell them quite the opposite. Believe me because what I teach you makes sense (is consistent), corresponds at least roughly with your own everyday experience, and because when you check it in the labs and by doing computations that can be compared to e.g. planetary observations, they seem to work. And believe me only with a grain of salt then — because further experiments and observations will eventually prove it all wrong.
That isn’t to say that we don’t believe some things very strongly. I’m a pretty firm believer in gravity, for example. Sure, it isn’t exactly right, or consistent with quantum theory at the smallest and perhaps largest of scales, but it works so very, very well in between and it is almost certainly at least approximately true, true enough in the right milieu. I’m very fond of Maxwell’s Equations and both classical and, in context, quantum theory, as they lead to this amazing description of things like atoms and molecules that is consistent and that works — up to a point — to describe nearly everything we see every day. And so on.
But if somebody were to argue that gravitation isn’t really a perfect force, and deviations at very long length scales are responsible for the observed anomalies in galactic rotation, I’d certainly listen. If the new theory still predicts the old results, explains the anomaly, I’d judge it to be quite possibly true. If it predicted something new and startling, something that was then observed (variations in near-Earth gravitation in the vicinity of Uranium mines, anomalies in the orbits of planets near black holes, unique dynamics in the galactic cores) then I might even promote it to more probably true than Newton’s Law of Gravitation, no matter how successful, simple, and appealing it is. In the end, it isn’t esthetics, it isn’t theoretic consistency, it isn’t empirical support, it is a sort of a blend of all three, something that relies heavily on common sense and human judgement and not so much on a formal rule that tells us truth.
Where does that leave one in the Great Climate Debate? Well, it damn well should leave you skeptical as all hell. I believe in the theory of relativity. Let me explain that — I really, really believe in the theory of relativity. I believe because it works; it explains all sorts of experimental stuff. I can run down a list of experimental observations that are explained by relativity that could scarcely be explained by anything else — factors of two in spin-orbit coupling constants, the tensor forms and invariants of electromagnetism, the observation of -mesons produced from cosmic ray collisions in the upper atmosphere far down near the surface of the Earth where they have no business being found given a lifetime of
microseconds — and observation I personally have made — and of course all the particle accelerators in the known Universe would fail miserably in their engineering if relativity weren’t at least approximately correct. Once you believe in relativity (because it works) it makes some very profound statements about causality, time ordering, and so on — things that might well make all the physics I think that I know inconsistent if it were found to be untrue.
Yet I was — and continue to be — at least willing to entertain the possibility that I might have to chuck the whole damn thing, wrong from top to bottom — all because a silly neutrino in Europe seems to be moving faster than it should ever be aver to move. Violations of causality, messages from the future, who knows what carnage such an observation (verified) might wreak! I’m properly skeptical because what we have observed — so far — works so very consistently, and the result itself seems to be solidly excluded by supernova data already in hand, but you know, my beliefs don’t dictate reality — it is rather the other way around.
The sad thing about the Great Climate Debate is that so far, there hasn’t really been a debate. The result is presented, but no one ever takes questions from the podium and is capable of defending their answers against a knowledgeable and skeptical questioner.
I can do that for all of my beliefs in physics — or at least, most of them — explain particular experiments that seem to verify my beliefs (as I do above). I’m quite capable of demonstrating their consistency both theoretically (with other physical laws and beliefs) and with experiment. I’m up front about where those beliefs fail, where they break down, where we do not know how things really work. Good science admits its limits, and never claims to be “settled” even as it does lead to defensible practice and engineering where it seems to work — for now.
Good science accepts limits on experimental precision. Hell, in physics we have to accept a completely non-classical limitation on experimental precision, one so profound that it sounds like a violation of simple logic to the uninitiated when they first try to understand it. But quite aside from Heisenberg, all experimental apparatus and all measurements are of limited precision, and the most honest answer for many things we might try to measure is “damfino” (damned if I know).
The Great Climate Debate, however, is predicated from the beginning on one things. We know what the global average temperature has been like for the past N years, where N is nearly anything you like. A century. A thousand years. A hundred thousand years. A hundred million years. Four billion years.
We don’t, of course. Not even close. Thermometers have only been around in even moderately reliable form for a bit over 300 years — 250 would be a fairer number — and records of global temperatures measured with even the first, highly inaccurate devices are sparse indeed until maybe 200 years ago. Most of the records from over sixty or seventy years ago are accurate to no more than a degree or two F (a degree C), and some of them are far less accurate than that. As Anthony has explicitly demonstrated, one can confound even a digital electronic automatic recording weather station thermometer capable of at least 0.01 degree resolution by the simple act of setting it up in a stupid place, such as the southwest side of a house right above a concrete driveway where the afternoon sun turns its location into a large reflector oven. Or in the case of early sea temperatures, by virtue of measuring pails of water pulled up from over the side with crude instruments in a driving wind cooling the still wet bulb pulled out of the pail.
In truth, we have moderately accurate thermal records that aren’t really global, but are at least sample a lot of the globe’s surface exclusive of the bulk of the ocean for less than one century. We have accurate records — really accurate records — of the Earth’s surface temperatures on a truly global basis for less than forty years. We have accurate records that include for the first time a glimpse of the thermal profile, in depth, of the ocean, that is less than a decade old and counting, and is (as Willis is pointing out) still highly uncertain no matter what silly precision is being claimed by the early analysts of the data. Even the satellite data — precise as it is, global as it is — is far from free from controversy, as the instrumentation itself in the several satellites that are making the measurements do not agree on the measured temperatures terribly precisely.
In the end, nobody really knows the global average temperature of the Earth’s surface in 2011 within less than around 1K. If anybody claims to, they are full of shit. Perhaps — and a big perhaps it is — they know it more precisely than this relative to a scheme that is used to compute it from global data that is at least consistent and not crazy — but it isn’t even clear that we can define the global average temperature in a way that really makes sense and that different instruments will measure the same way. It is also absolutely incredibly unlikely that our current measurements would in any meaningful way correspond to what the instrumentation of the 18th and 19th century measured and that is turned into global average temperatures, not within more than a degree or two.
This complicates things, given that a degree or two (K) appears to be very close to the natural range of variation of the global average temperature when one does one’s best to compute it from proxy records. Things get more complicated still when all of the best proxy reconstructions in the world get turned over and turned out in favor of “tree ring reconstructions” based upon — if not biased by — a few species of tree from a tiny handful of sites around the world.
The argument there is that tree rings are accurate thermometers. Of course they aren’t — even people in the business have confessed (in climategate letters, IIRC) that if they go into their own back yards and cut down trees and try to reconstruct the temperature of their own back yard based on the rings, it doesn’t work. Trees grow one year because your dog fertilizes them, fail to grow another not because it is cold but because it is dry, grow poorly in a perfect year because a fungus attacks the leaves. If one actually plots tree ring thicknesses over hundreds of years, although there is a very weak signal that might be thermal in nature, there is a hell of a lot of noise — and many, many parts of the world simply don’t have trees that survived to be sampled. Such as the 70% of the Earth’s surface that is covered by the ocean…
But the complication isn’t done yet — the twentieth century perhaps was a period of global warming — at least the period from roughly 1975 to the present where we have reasonably accurate records appears to have warmed a bit — but there were lots of things that made the 20th century, especially the latter half, unique. Two world wars, the invention and widespread use and testing of nuclear bombs that scattered radioactive aerosols throughout the stratosphere, unprecedented deforestation and last but far from least a stretch where the sun appeared to be far more active than it had been at any point in the direct observational record, and (via various radiometric proxies) quite possibly for over 10,000 years. It isn’t clear what normal conditions are for the climate — something that historically appears to be nearly perpetually in a state of at least slow change, warming gradually or cooling gradually, punctuated with periods where the heating or cooling is more abrupt (to the extent the various proxy reconstructions can be trusted as representative of truly global temperature averages) — but it is very clear indeed that the latter 19th through the 20th centuries were far from normal by the standards of the previous ten or twenty centuries.
Yet on top of all of this confounding phenomena — with inaccurate and imprecise thermal records in the era of measurements, far less accurate extrapolations of the measurement era using proxies, with at most 30-40 years of actually accurate and somewhat reproducible global thermal measurements, most of it drawn from the period of a Grand Solar Maximum — climatologists have claimed to find a clear signal of anthropogenic global warming caused strictly by human-produced carbon dioxide. They are — it is claimed — certain that no other phenomena could be the proximate cause of the warming. They are certain when they predict that this warming will continue until a global catastrophe occurs that will kill billions of people unless we act in certain ways now to prevent it.
I’m not certain relativity is correct, but they are certain that catastrophic anthropogenic global warming is a true hypothesis with precise predictions and conclusions. I have learned to doubt numerical simulations that I myself have written that are doing simple, easily understandable things that directly capture certain parts of physics. They are doing far, far more complex numerical simulations — the correct theoretical answer, recall, is a solution to a set of coupled non-Markovian Navier-Stokes equation with a variable external driver and still unknown feedbacks in a chaotic regime with known important variability on multiple decadal or longer timescales — and yet they are certain that their results are correct, given the thirty plus years of accurate global thermal data (plus all of the longer timescale reconstructions or estimates they can produce from the common pool of old data, with all of its uncertainties).
Look, here’s how you can tell — to get back to your question. You compare the predictions of their “catastrophic” theory five, ten, twenty years back to the actual data. If there is good agreement, it is at least possible that they are correct. The greater the deviation between observed reality and their predictions, the more likely it is that their result is at least incorrect if not actual bullshit. That’s all. Accurately predicting the future isn’t proof that they are right, but failing to predict it is pretty strong evidence that they are wrong.
Such a comparison fails. It actually fails way back in the twentieth century, where it fails to predict or explain the cooling from 1945 to roughly 1965-1970. It fails to predict the little ice age. It fails to predict the medieval climate optimum, or the other periods in the last 10,000 years where the proxy record seems to indicate that the world was as warm or warmer than it is today. But even ignoring that — which we can, because those proxy reconstructions are just as doubtful in their own way as the tree-ring reconstructions, with or without a side-serving of confirmation bias to go with your fries — even ignoring that, it fails to explain the 33 or so years of the satellite record, the only arguably reliable measure of actual global temperatures humans have ever made. For the last third of that period, there has been no statistically significant increase in temperature, and it may even be that the temperature has decreased a bit from a 1998 peak. January of 2012 was nearly 0.1C below the 33 year baseline.
This behavior is explainable and understandable, but not in terms of their models, which predicted that the temperature would be considerably warmer, on average, than it appears to be, back when they were predicting the future we are now living. This is evidence that those models are probably wrong, that some of the variables that they have ignored in their theories are important, that some of the equations they have used have incorrect parameters, incorrect feedbacks. How wrong remains to be seen — if global temperatures actually decline for a few years (and stretch out the period with no increase still further in the process) — it could be that their entire model is fundamentally wrong, badly wrong. Or it could be that their models are partially right but had some of the parameters or physics wrong. Or it could even be that the models are completely correct, but neglected confounding things are temporarily masking the ongoing warming that will soon come roaring back with a catastrophic vengeance.
The latter is the story that is being widely told, to keep people from losing faith in a theory that isn’t working — so far — the way that it should. And I have only one objection to that. Keep your hands off of my money while the theory is still unproven and not in terribly good agreement with reality!
Well, I have other objections as well — open up the debate, acknowledge the uncertainties, welcome contradictory theories, stop believing in a set of theoretical results as if climate science is some sort of religion… but we can start with shit-canning the IPCC and the entire complex arrangement of “remedies” to a problem that may well be completely ignorable and utterly destined to take care of itself long before it ever becomes a real problem.
No matter what, we will be producing far less CO_2 in 30 years than we are today. Sheer economics and the advance of physics and technology and engineering will make fossil-fuel burning electrical generators as obsolete as steam trains. Long before we reach any sort of catastrophe — assuming that CAGW is correct — the supposed proximate cause of the catastrophe will be reversing itself without anyone doing anything special to bring it about but make sensible economic choices.
In the meantime, it would be so lovely if we could lose one single phrase in the “debate”. The CAGW theory is not “settled science”. I’m not even sure there is any such thing.
Zeke says:
March 2, 2012 at 10:33 amIf the sun bends light by curving spacetime by its mass, then why doesn’t the center of our galaxy bend light? (Dr. Dowdye of NASA)
If you sunbathe on a day when there are a few clouds occasionally drifting across the sun, You can feel the solar heat increase just before the cloud obscures the Sun. Obviously the cloud is bending space time too!
“Settled science” is a contradiction in terms.
Dr. Brown
I feel that your discussion of the scientific method is the best I have ever read.
You have renewed my faith in science and scientists like yourself, after it was severely
damaged by the likes of Jones, Mann, Hansen, et al.
I especially liked the part at the beginning which dealt with science in general.
Thanks for that. I intend to read it over several times.
Many are familiar with the basic concept in math of limits. The classic example is a point on the real number line being approached by moving one-half the remaining distance toward that point from where you are. You can get halfway there, then three fourths of the way, than seven eighths, fifteen sixteenths, etc. After so many repeats of this step you can get, say, 999,999,999,999 trillionths. But even though you can get even closer and closer and closer – you can never get to the actual limit, which is in fact “there.”
I like to think of the search for truth as similar. We can approximate truth with our language and our numbers, but reality, being what it is with or without words and math, is what it is. We can only get very very very close to it. Then later we can even get closer and closer and closer. But it is illusory to imagine that we can actually reach the precise point of truth. Such is the relationship between truth and humanity.
Thus, science is never settled. Never.
It sure is fun to try though.
It was just yesterday that I was wondering why I hadn’t seen Robert Brown in the comments for some time. I naturally figured “it’s because he has real work to do, like teach”.
Then I check in today and see this. Robert, I’m tempted to sign up for a physics course of yours, despite knowing how much I struggled with it in the past (and also despite having to acknowledge that I was a Duke student, however briefly. Something no self-respecting Maryland grad ever wants to do).
Outstanding.
We understand the IR properties of CO2. We understand sunlight and earth’s thermal radiation. We understand the laws of thermodynamics. We can tweak one parameter and see pretty accurately how it affects global energy balance. One could certainly question whether the number should be 3.0 W/m^2, or that the direct effect should be 1.2 C. But no one should think that the number is exactly 0.0000 W/m^2, or exactly 0.0000 C. CO2 DOES have and effect — even if it comprises only 0.04% of the atmosphere.
As always, Tim, total agreement. Indeed, this is where the term denier ceases to be a meaningless pejorative term and indicates a real problem. As I repeatedly have pointed out and will continue to point out, while you can argue some about the magnitude and mechanism of the GHE, top of atmosphere IR spectroscopy is literally a picture of the GHE, caught in the act. What it doesn’t reveal are the derivatives, how it varies with this and that, and how the entire mechanism of thermal transport and chemistry in the atmosphere and the ocean conspires to establish its variation. What goes into the models here is basically nothing but idealizations and guesses one hopes are sufficient to represent the real world well enough to make predictions. But in the end, those predictions have to be tested not against the models themselves, but against the real world.
Again, success at predicting this or that isn’t sufficient to prove the model right, but failure to predict nearly anything significant is sufficient to prove a model wrong. Maxwell’s equations and Newton’s Laws work wonderfully well to describe all sorts of macroscopic phenomena, but that doesn’t make them right. Its where they fail that is important.
If you’d asked, say, Hansen in 1990 or in 1998, what the probabilities that in the spring of 2012 we would have the second month straight of a -0.1K 32-year anomaly in the lower troposphere, I’m pretty confident that he would have answered no more than one in a hundred, an 1% event according to the prevailing theory — maybe even lower. One can “ask” Hansen these questions now by examining what he did predict at those times in the past. We are clearly out there past 2 sigma, heading towards 3, compared to their various unmitigated predictions for strongly fed back climate disaster with unchecked CO_2.
At what point do we conclude that it isn’t just that we’re lucky but that those predictions were wrong?
But the climate scientists are fully aware of the problem. Their emails in Climategate 2 reveal it, and their rhetoric is sharply toned down except for outliers like Gleick. They’ve started to realize that they really can’t ignore the Sun, and that it is, sadly for their hypothesis, really pretty likely that we won’t see much warming at all for a decade-long while.
That doesn’t make their hypothesis completely wrong, because the GHE is real. But it does force them to consider the probability that the late 20th century warming is only partly attributable to CO_2, so that in fact they have the overall effect of the only partly anthropogenic increase perhaps a factor of 2 or 3 too high…
So what you see is a thawing of the freeze on science that challenges “the cause” because a lot of people are no longer as firmly convinced and really aren’t bad people, or even bad scientists, at the same time you see the unrelentingly political racing to accomplish their social agenda before the game is given away. Hence Al Gore’s trips, Gleick’s actions, and so on. They can’t just point to the rising temperatures of the 80s and 90s and say “look, we’re right” (not a proof anyway but scary) — so their only alternative is to become ever more shrill and alarmist to distract the general public from the fact that temperatures aren’t cooperating with their gloomy scenario of catastrophic doom.
We’ve had a mild winter in NC — not the mildest ever, and we have had snow (a week ago, yet) but it is nice outside this week (70s) in March. Still, the fruit trees aren’t way ahead of their usual time. Alaska, OTOH, has gotten slammed with the cold. Other places are probably in between. If one fails to keep the perspective provided by the non-futzable UAH data sets in mind, it would be easy for me to look out and go “it’s too warm, must be CAGW at work”. Hence the danger — cherrypickers can always find a place that is too warm, can they not, in a highly variable globe? It takes the UAH lower troposphere to demonstrate that no matter that some places are too warm (and others too cold!) the Earth’s temperature is, for the most part, juuuust right.
That’s the really silly thing. So far, in spite of the absurd WHO page tallying “deaths” attributable to CAGW, there really haven’t been any. In fact, it is difficult to point to one single “disaster” as being unambiguously caused by global warming, anthropogenic or catastrophic or not. The frequency and severity of weather disasters is more or less unchanged “forever”, as far back as one wishes to look, except that there were far greater disasters in the past back when humans were completely irrelevant to the climate by any stretch of the imagination.
rgb
If the sun bends light by curving spacetime by its mass, then why doesn’t the center of our galaxy bend light? (Dr. Dowdye of NASA)
If high redshift quasars are racing away from us in an expanding universe, why do quasars appear in pairs on the axis’ of active galaxies, sometimes even attached to low redshift galaxies by material bridges? (Dr Halton Arp)
Well, it is a bit of a non-sequitor, since I really wasn’t signing on to be the defender of every non-mainstream scientist (quack or not) in the Universe by pointing out some of the flaws in the CAGW scientific scenario, but I’d have to come back at you with — if gravity doesn’t bend spacetime (and hence the geodesics followed by light, then how do you explain gravitational lensing as photographed by the Hubble and elsewhere? Photographs e.g. here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens
As for quasars, I really have no idea. I recall that quasars were very odd and difficult to explain back when I took astrophysics (that would be in 1977) and haven’t really looked at them ever since.
That’s not to defend curved or non-curved space theories, by the way. Manifolds are tough, differential geometry is where I decided I was done and just didn’t care enough to work through it all. So I tend to stop at the SR end of GR…;-)
One other thing I’m perfectly happy to tell my students is this: “I don’t know.” Words that should be heard a lot more often than perhaps they are…;-)
rgb
Nice discussion. You know the people who sidle into your office to offer their theories of everything? Theories they can’t write down? That’s the climate science modality at work: kooks with money and the sure and certain knowledge that what sells, works.
Unfortunately, I know them all too well. I actually got a Christmas card from one this year, complete with a link to his website. In the old days they would call me long distance to try to convince me that they had a perfect theory where, for example, they began by proving that relativity couldn’t be right because everybody knows that if you turn a light on in a moving car the light has to go faster, and then moved write along to demonstrate that field theory could be explained by a bunch of triangles and objects connected with lines.
Climate science isn’t really that bad. Passion is all well and good. It’s just that passion has to be accompanied by freedom to respectfully disagree, equally passionately, with nature standing by in the end as the impartial judge.
When politics mixes with science, when science becomes a “cause”, it’s a bad, bad sign.
rgb
See my analysis of the true costs of solar, “The Dark Future of Solar Energy” and also here to see why solar is very unlikely to meet anything like your fantastic extrapolations anytime soon.
Sounds like the grounds for a bet! I’ll bet you a case of my personal homebrew — which is very tasty indeed according to my friends — against a case of whatever beer you are proud of, that when mainstream solar costs drop below $1/Watt in 2009 dollars we start to see massive investment in large scale solar, with or without subsidy. Sooner in places with high insolation and low humidity where electricity is already expensive. We trade cases if fusion is invented first, just for grins.
You game? Mind you, I am close to winning the bet already, given that solar plants are being built now with nothing like a 4x subsidy when 2011 costs were still well over $2/watt.
You might look at the ways power companies are using solar, too — it illustrates why some of your argument is, IMO, incorrect. In the right mix of fuel and non-fuel generation facilities, it helps provide cheap bridge power for handling peak load, for example. And I’m happy to bet on better batteries as well, given that I read slashdot daily and am aware of three or four different possible breakthrough technologies that could mature within a decade.
Yeah, it may be a ten-year bet, but that’s the sort of timescale I’m talking about for the real start of the transition anyway. If I die early, my apologies.
rgb
Expanding on the solar costs discussion, I think $1-2 a watt is arguably the point (at current electrical pricing) where it becomes cost effective to use solar *as a consumer* and that further reductions will actually allow it to make financial sense in a 10-year time horizon. That is, $1-2 per watt for the whole system installed and turned on — not just the cost of solar cells.
The problem, of course, is whether solar equipment can actually be manufactured, distributed, installed and maintained for that price. A quick look at the financial well-being of large solar manufacturers would indicate that few could actually survive in a world where a 5Kw system is sold and installed for $2,500.00. (To say nothing about the systemic costs associated with making sure there is enough backup capacity in the grid to handle times when consumption is high and the sun is not shining.)
I was quoting prices out of an online shop that will sell you a grid-tie system now for that. Grid tie requires and inverter and regulator and a rooftop full of cells. Batteries are where things get expensive. But with grid tie you “store” in the grid, using the power you delivered during by day back for free again at night.
The point is that large commercial prices already are close to $1/watt for the cells, but Willis is quite correct when he notes that they have other costs that make it still a marginal investment without subsidy EXCEPT where power is expensive and insolation high, where there are companies that are doing or thinking about doing it with or without subsidy. The numbers work out.
But by the time over the counter consumer prices are down to a dollar a watt, mass produced cells bought in quantity will already be down to $0.25/$0.50 per watt. And there is plenty of cheap, junk land out there in the world that isn’t good for much of anything BUT collecting power.
Without batteries better than what we have, we may hit limits on how much we can convert away from fuel, granted. And there are places where solar will never work, and we’ll have to solve energy transport problems instead of energy collection problems to get it there from where it works. It doesn’t help to turn the entire Sahara into a huge energy station if you can’t get the energy from there to here, or to Europe. But industry has a habit of following the resource if the resource can’t come to industry. We’ll see.
I’m betting that most of those smaller technical problems are solvable, given the enormous economic incentives and a lot of people looking for solutions…
rgb
I cannot take credit for finding the post you are probably thinking of another commentator on the other thread.
Larry
This kind of how I was taught – though I don’t remember quite how! As I vaguely recall, doing all the major sciences at A level, we were ‘told’ something and then had it demonstrated (or did it ourselves) by experiment or whatever. However, for example, as I went to a school that produced two nobel science prize winners – our teachers would quite often add caveats along the lines of ‘current research is showing something different,etc..’. Then, of course, by the time I had finished my ‘learning’ at post grad level, I had been essentially taught to query everything, or at least look at it openly but more importantly, critically! LOL
I also quite fondly recall being briefly taught about ‘media’ (at that time really only print media and TV!) and how reading or seeing something didn’t necessarily mean it was right/correct! Needless to say, I have never really read a newspaper or ‘believed’ a TV production – in fact, I think the last time I read a newspaper would have been in the mid 80’s!
Hence, I guess this is the source of my skeptical manner (?) which continues to this day, especially when it is aroused by some curiosity – which can be something really simple like seeing a so called global temperature anomaly and thinking ‘how the feck do they get that?’ – then digging deeper…hence my initial foray into climate science skepticism!!
‘settled science’ is a very long way off IMHO – at least in the real sense on those two ‘terrible’
words.
An Excellent post, Dr Brown – reminds me of why I am a scientist, albeit now mostly in an engineering aspect!
I had the misfortune of reading this line as I was drinking my coffee!
Your keyboard has my apologies.
Alas, it is time for me to take my spherical cow and go home. Spring break starts today! Hooray!
rgb
I regard highly Dr. Brown’s essay, as per my earlier post. But I wonder why he is in “total agreement” with Tim Folkerts’s assertion the case for CO2 “forcings” has been “experimentally” tested, let alone proved. I really cannot imagine an experiment that would satisfy basic scientific procedures to control, or at least account for, the other factors which both men agree come into play. Even granting Dr. Brown’s statement that “top of atmosphere IR spectroscopy is literally a picture of the GHE,” how does that indicate anything about the effect of CO2 in the entire dynamic. Yes, it must be trivially true that anything affects everything, but something more definitive is needed, is it not, to prove that nothing but an odorless, colorless, trace gas can be leveraged so as to give us a measureable increase in watts per square meter?
Robert Brown says:
Sounds like the grounds for a bet! I’ll bet you a case of my personal homebrew — which is very tasty indeed according to my friends — against a case of whatever beer you are proud of, that when mainstream solar costs drop below $1/Watt in 2009 dollars we start to see massive investment in large scale solar, with or without subsidy. Sooner in places with high insolation and low humidity where electricity is already expensive. We trade cases if fusion is invented first, just for grins.
And, from what I’ve read, this is a long-standing tradition among REAL scientists 🙂
Thanks, Dr. Brown!
An excellent piece. My concurrence follows.
Robert Brown wrote:
I’m properly skeptical because what we have observed — so far — works so very consistently, and the result itself seems to be solidly excluded by supernova data already in hand, but you know, my beliefs don’t dictate reality — it is rather the other way around.
That’s the ideal in Science, anyway.
There are conflicting schools of thought that it does work the other way. (“One of them must be wrong.”) Some are explicitly theological, others not. They don’t seem to have a very good track record. “If only we believe enough” seems to repeatedly end in butchery. I could be wrong, but it seems extremely hazardous to go down that road.
Sooner or later, positions like “I’m right, you’re wrong, accept it” tend to lead to feelings of ill will and acts of violence.
I love debate (as you may have noticed) as long as I can walk away. Once someone reaches to compel, it is no longer a debate, but rather an entirely different matter. If I am forced to choose between fight or flight, my action becomes entirely unpredictable.
We’ve seen this played out before, repeatedly, and yet the Hansens and Gores seem somehow surprised that there is an adverse reaction.
One other thing I’m perfectly happy to tell my students is this: “I don’t know.” Words that should be heard a lot more often than perhaps they are…;-)
The difficulty in admitting this seems to be a common characterstic. I take it as a red flag, indicating possible delusion and/or ‘religious’ conviction. It may indicate that the person is not being honest, either with themselves or with me.
Dr. Brown,
May I post your comment/blog post elsewhere? With attribution, of course.
Willis Eschenbach says:
March 2, 2012 at 10:49 am
Robert Brown says:
March 2, 2012 at 10:13 am
The dramatic declines in the price of PV panels in recent times have been driven, not by improved production methods and the resultant decline in production costs, but by the massive oversupply created by the Chinese. What is transpiring as a result is a huge shakeout in the PV industry as many of the producers can’t sustain through the extended period of prices not covering costs. Once that shakeout is over, there remain significant questions about the industry’s ability to bring production costs down to match the present artificially low prices
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/008429.html
Solar Photovoltaic Price Declines Not Sustainable
If the Chinese are unwilling to continue to subsidize the rest of the world to maintain their market share or are unable to achieve significant declines in production costs there is every possibility that the PV market will see, not continuing price declines, but significant price increases. Given the growing trend for governmental austerity measures as a result the Damoclean world debt, those price rises will likely occur in an environment of dwindling subsidies. The market has built in a strong expectation of a downtrend in prices and it remains an open question what the response would be to a reversal of that trend.
Here in the US, the manner in which the Obama administration has repeatedly raped and pillaged the rights of private investors in order to reward its contributing constituencies in various bailouts and bankruptcies has made it pure folly for any private investor to put their money at risk in any situation where their financial rights could conceivably come into conflict with one of those constituencies. Unless of course they are willing and able to become a significant bundler of contributions to Democratic coffers themselves. Given the fragile foothold the PV industry has on financial security at the moment, even minor reductions in the present level of subsidy could turn the whole thing into a house of cards as PI rightfully avoids throwing their money into this wishing well to fill the gap.
I don’t have time to respond to all the replies to my previous comments, but
briefly the answers are:
* Yes, I know that not everything else can or will be kept constant. That doesn’t stop CO2 from having an effect. Its like acknowledging that eating an extra apple everyday will give me extra calories, and calories lead to weight gain. I could counter that by exercising or cutting back on other food and end up loosing weight, but the calories in the apple are still calories.
* the proof of the effect of CO2 is in this data. http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/gw-petty-6-6.jpg
Explaining the observed bite requires an acknowledgement that CO2 is affecting the spectrum and requires the ground to be warmer than it would be without that “CO2 bite”.
Again, the values of 3.7 W/m^2 and 1 C are open to refinement, but they are definitely not identically equal to zero.
For the general public that does not have an objective scientific bent, how do you tell virtual reality from the real thing?
Trial and error.
If you seek to extract the maximum information from errors, it should be possible to accumulate information with fewer errors. This does open the possibility of trying to extract too much information from an error (over-training), which itself would be an error.
Accept that you will make mistakes, and try to learn as much as you can (but no more) from them. That works in general and in detail.
Barefoot boy from Brooklyn says:
March 2, 2012 at 2:42 pm
I regard highly Dr. Brown’s essay, as per my earlier post. But I wonder why he is in “total agreement” with Tim Folkerts’s assertion the case for CO2 “forcings” has been “experimentally” tested, let alone proved. I really cannot imagine an experiment that would satisfy basic scientific procedures to control, or at least account for, the other factors which both men agree come into play. Even granting Dr. Brown’s statement that “top of atmosphere IR spectroscopy is literally a picture of the GHE,” how does that indicate anything about the effect of CO2 in the entire dynamic. Yes, it must be trivially true that anything affects everything, but something more definitive is needed, is it not, to prove that nothing but an odorless, colorless, trace gas can be leveraged so as to give us a measureable increase in watts per square meter?
Typical faux science – no proof, just continual assertions that there is proof, but they never fetch. Tim just posts shouts and leaves.
They take out of their comic cartoon energy budget the direct invisible thermal infrared, the actual thermal energy of the Sun on the move to us, heat, (and replace this with a through the looking glass claim that visible light and shortwave either side heats the Earth’s land and oceans), and then come back with strange claims that there’s thermal infrared coming from the top of atmosphere – can’t be the Sun, they’ve excluded that, so it must be carbon dioxide backradiating…
Perhaps we should gather up the questions they never reply to, posts as yours and Willis and
mkelly says:
March 2, 2012 at 12:31 pm
Tim Folkerts says:
March 2, 2012 at 9:17 am
“…We understand the IR properties of CO2. We understand sunlight and earth’s thermal radiation. We understand the laws of thermodynamics.”
Do you include yourself in the royal “We”? If so please write a heat transfer equation showing how CO2 in the atmosphere can radiate down to the earth’s surface and cause it to increase in temperature. Please ensure the emissivity of CO2 at 1 atm and 288 K is included.
Thanks you in advance.
========================
Willis Eschenbach says:
March 2, 2012 at 9:30 am
Tim Folkerts says:
March 2, 2012 at 9:17 am
… Conversely, anyone who claims that CO2 is irrelevant is also a fool and is also displaying a “lack of humility before nature”. Nature clearly shows us that CO2′s IR properties have an impact (both through theory and through experiments).
Thanks, Tim. And just where does nature show us that “CO2′s IR properties have an impact “?
First you say Nature shows us through “theory” … but nature can’t “show us” anything through theory. That’s why it’s called a theory. It’s just a story we made up to explain something … so a theory can’t show us anything. A theory might be able to explain an observation … is that what you mean? And if so … which observation is explained by the theory that CO2 is very gradually warming the earth?
That just leaves us what you call “experiment”. So where are these experiments by which nature “clearly shows us” that CO2 has an impact on the temperature, who did the experiments, where were they done, you know, the usual …
===========================
Where’s the physics? Where are these experiments?
Where’s the industrial application of this amazing ability of carbon dioxide to raise temps, why isn’t this incorporated into my central heating system?
The sad thing about the Great Climate Debate is that so far, there hasn’t really been a debate
———–
No. There were debates decades ago. You just weren’t payin attention.
I can do that for all of my beliefs in physics — or at least, most of them — explain particular experiments that seem to verify my beliefs (as I do above).
————–
No you can’t.
If you stood up at a podium and debated against a person who absolutely refused to believe the evidence, ignored every logical argument you made, spent years concocting highly ingenious but wrong counter arguments, was a quick thinker, was a charismatic speaker and proficient at manipulating people, then you would lose the debate even if you were entirely correct.
Like one poster to this site said, settled science is no longer science. I say if it is settled, it is fact , or more probably dogmatic illusion. Science is always seeking to improve knowledge or it is not science.If we could only find the Higgs Boson and the elusive graviton and understand the time/gravity relationship at its deepest levels, and, and, and….