A Florida school has learned a hard lesson about green technology and green math.
The plan was to save water, and the planet, by installing waterless urinals in the boys washrooms. Each green urinal would save the school $100 per year in water utility bills.
But things went wrong. Horribly wrong:
Students at a high school in Boca Raton, Florida, must step over rivers of urine and endure the stench of rancid waste after a plan to bring ‘green’ waterless urinals into bathrooms backfired. School officials at Spanish River High School thought they had found an environmentally-friendly, cost-saving solution for their bathrooms when they installed Falcon Waterfree urinals in their boys bathrooms.
But with no water moving through the school’s copper pipes to flush the urine into the sewer system, the waste produced noxious gases that ate through the metal, leaving leaky pipes that allowed urine to drip into walls and flow onto floors.
‘It was pretty disgusting,’ school board chairman Frank Barbieri told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. ‘The girls had to step over a river of urine. I could smell it as soon as I walked into the hallway.’
via Green pee « The Daily Bayonet.
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And the Greens tell us they fully understand the chemistry of ocean acidification? Right.
If you want to get the boys really interested in chemistry, you could tell them how to make gun powder out of piss.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate
@More Soylent Green!
“..When I lived in Las Vegas, they put in restrictions on outside water use because that water could not be reclaimed. Otherwise, water that goes in the house drains (including the toilets) was recycled back into the system…
I thought that Vegas used the aquifers as storage – pumping them full when the rivers are in flood and then abstracting the water during drought? Everything goes back into the system and is ‘reclaimed’ – there are just different timescales for some paths, which mean that different reservoir sizes are required….
Man, I can’t even stand the stench of a traditional flush urinal if the guy (pig) before me didn’t bother to flush. I’ve encountered “waterless” urinals before and they all stink. All this “no-flow” and “low-flow” plumbing fixture craze is a step backwards for civilization. There are a lot of factors that have contributed to our increase in average life expectancy (e.g. clean potable water, improved food safety, vaccines, modern medicine, etc.) but high on the list is modern sanitation. Think of the paradox. We force teenage boys to pee into what is essentially a stinking outhouse hole and then expect them to “waste water” by washing their hands. Shucks, every day at school would be like camping (or perhaps “occupying”).
Ric Werme says:
February 6, 2012 at 10:32 am
Steve from Rockwood says:
February 6, 2012 at 10:06 am
Plus we have lids that don’t go down and a toilet paper dispenser that cannot be refilled (by man anyway – had to outsource it).
So what happens to the cat if you accidentally drop it in mid-wipe?
ROFL! The trick is getting the cat to stay there until you need it. Nothing worse than running through the house with your pants down going “here kitty-kitty”.
As it seems likely the main problem was not replacing the pipework, why didn’t they just install some form of water control valve? Many public toilets in the UK have PIR controlled units to stop unnecessary flushing. A quick search provided the following device which appears to be more sophisticated, and is supplied by a company on your side of the ‘pond.http://www.watermatrix.com/utc_sentinel.php
Unintended consequences: it’s not just a good idea; it’s the law.
Canada has 20% of the world’s fresh water. We do not need to conserve water. This whole issue is so alien to me. Trouble is…urinals are made in the USA based on standards developed in locals where water use is restricted…like LA and NYC.
I go to Home Depot to buy a shower head or a toilet tank level control and the sales reps says ” low flow this and low flush that”…my response is “so what.”
I want the poo to go down the pipes.. with one flush.. not 3 or 4. Greenies don’t care about poo smudges on the porcelain and personal hygiene… a chronic issue with earthy sandal wearing green types…..they are gross.
And here is a stupid story from Germany on topic:
Because the Germans are always very much on the spot with anything, of course they are great water savers as well. However, there is a lack of water now in the sewer system that has led to a serious deterioration of many systems, causing substancial cost. And while the EU is trying to push for water saving measures, this really does not make sense according to experts, because Germany simply does not suffer from water shortage; and so they say that using more water would actually be better – but hey, in the hands of politicians, this will be going the worst way out of all possible ones, you can bet your money on that. Germany is not Spain, why would the EU slam a regulation on top for everyone?
We have used the waterless urinals at several of our businesses. We have stopped using them because they have not performed like we thought they would. They require a lot of maintenance to work properly. We find that the urine salts build up, they start to smell, and minerals will build up in the pipes. There are also unforeseen problems, one of our employees chews tobacco, and his spit just ate up the valve. We could never have foreseen this. We now use one gallon flush urinals and eventually will tear out and replace the waterless ones.
From my very brief research just now, it seems that PVC piping is also not very “green”. From Wikipedia: “The environmentalist group Greenpeace has advocated the global phase-out of PVC because they claim dioxin is produced as a byproduct of vinyl chloride manufacture and from incineration of waste PVC in domestic garbage” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_chloride). Sometimes there is a very good reason we have done things the same way for hundreds of years!
Heh – I wonder if they’ve stemmed the tide of smoking in the restrooms because the stench is so bad…?
Or is the stench from the urinals so bad that it covers up the smoke smell…?
“Falcon Waterfree Technologies, the Los Angeles-based manufacturer of water-free urinals, said the investment firm founded by Jeff Skoll, EBay Inc.’s first president, had taken a 25% stake in the privately held firm.”
Jeff Skoll was involved in producing Al Gore’s award winning documentary, An Inconvenient Truth.
Now the scoundrels are making your daughters walk around schools where they are too cheap and low to flush the boys urine with actual water. Pin this on them! Give them a lifetime acheivement award!
From a study on the effect of bird poop on copper roof and statues, here is the chemistry of it and their conclusions…
http://www.heritage.unibo.it/HeritageEn/case+studies/Cultural+Heritage+Environment+and+Territory/Uric_acid_from_bird_dropping.htm
“Uric acid contained in bird droppings could cause appreciable damage to copper used in buildings and monuments, considering that uric acid chemically affects copper and bronzes by modifying the metal appearance and forming urates.
Uric acid corrosiveness increases when the acid remains wet, but its biodegradation under humid conditions seems to suggest a temporary corrosive action.
The role of water in enhancing corrosion by bird droppings appears of particular significance in management, suggesting that cleaning might be particularly appropriate if conditions are likely to remain wet.”
I have used these new waterless urinals in many locations, they all stink to high heaven.
And now I have to worry about splashback from the unrinsed urine of the previous user.
I’d like to see a comparison of infectious disease transmission between these and conventional flush urinals.
Two practical solutions:
1. Use the toilet stall instead of the no flush unit.
2. Make a habit of chewing gum and expectorating the gum into the no flush urinal whenever possible. If everyone did this, these monstrosities would be gone within the year.
Ken says:
February 6, 2012 at 7:28 am
It’s Pee Cee gawn mad!
Perhaps it’s too Pee Sea.
Wastewater facilties depend on the flow of water to process the waste. Collection systems can get clogged. Flow needs to maintain a certain rate to keep solids suspended. The grinders and screens at the headworks may have to be cleaned more often. That’s not a fun job. Nobody thinks about the wastewater end of the process. It’s flush and forget. Policy should be based on a whole-system analysis, not just half of the system.
Good grief! They are not living in a desert, are they?
Average annual rainfall in Boca Raton, Florida is 61 inches (1550 mm). Collect rainwater falling on rooftops, store in a cistern and you’ll have plenty of water to flush piss down with no utility bill whatsoever. Simple as a wood wedge.
However, you’ll still have to pay for amortization of cistern and for operating the pumps. On the plus side you don’t have to maintain drinking water quality, not at all. You can even allow students piss on the roof when it is raining, just make sure they would not overdo it.
They can and do work, very popular in McDonalds in he UK.
Would it be too difficult to recover the water from the mandatory washing of hands to flush?
In the old days of the trough type urinal, the waste from the basins regularly ran into the trough.
DaveE.
I have hundreds of waterless urinals just outside my house in Pa. … they are called trees …
I just googled “waterless urinals” and went to one of the retail links. In two sets of installation instructions I see no mention of piping requirements. It’s not only an installation issue but a manufacturer one. The technology sounds cool when it works correctly. But as many of these commenters say, it just doesn’t. Maybe they can address these issues in the future.
The simplist and only waterless urinal proven to work is…a hole in the ground – known as a latrine.
Heck a few schools is nothing compared to the entire CITY of San Francisco. It seems no one bothered to check the flow requirements of the sewage system before mandating low flow toilets and urinals. Now the entire sewage system is at risk. Not to mention the CURE to this invented problem could end up being worse! (The tons of bleach that they now have to add to the system to combat the smell and that doesn’t even begin to address the hundreds of millions in upgrades to the sewage system for a long term solution.)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/02/27/BAVP1HUSUD.DTL
Finally! A subject where I have both experience and special knowledge. I have been involved with building school buildings here in California since 1989. In that time I can tell you that I have not seen a school building that was built with PVC or ABS waste lines. Copper lines are used in some locations for waste lines, usually due to space constraints within walls. They are legal for Drain Waste and Vent (DWV) applications across the united states and are listed as such in the current Unified Plumbing Code. The most common material for DWV lines in school applications is cast iron, now made almost exclusively in China. (And cast iron must be a green technology now, since there was no pollution produced here in the states. /sarc off) Copper lines are most commonly used for potable water, both hot and cold.
I have inspected waterless urinal installations in schools, all of which carry a state mandated requirement for the installation of a water supply adjacent to the waterless unit. ( From the ca. give web site — http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/dsa/pubs/IR_P-1_rev11-03-10.pdf ) Apparently the California Department of the State Architect is not convinced about the longevity of these clean, green anti-pollution machines.
My research into the Falcon Waterless urinals reveals the following facts: 1. The cartridge in each unit has to be regularly replaced at a cost of 41.99 each plus labor. The replacement schedule is 3-4 months (minimum). A very busy school restroom might require more frequent changes. 2. Each urinal requires regular maintenance at the time of the cartridge change. (Roto rooter, flush out, etc.) These are jobs that would require a plumber, working in conjunction with the regular custodian. 3. Each urinal requires daily cleaning with approved cleaning chemicals, not the same old stuff that has always been on the cleaning cart. With school budgets being slashed on a regular basis, my observation is that maintenance and cleaning will be ignored long before the first administrative position is cut in a school district. And while the state will budget funds for rehabilitating and rebuilding a school, they do not allow any state money to be used for maintenance, scheduled or otherwise.
Like DavidS above, I can attest that these things are used in McDs all over the UK.
Do they work? No they damned well stink & as pbh mentions, they require special cleaning chemicals too.
I pity the water boards because they have enough problems cleaning out proteins etc. from waste water, add all the extra chemicals and you have an ecological nightmare!
DaveE.
Reblogged this on JustMEinT's General Blog and commented:
Makes one wonder whay, O why did they use copper pipes?