This is novel. A woman who is upset with Honda over lack of promised gas mileage on her HondaCivic Hybrid. It seems as the battery aged, the mileage went from the EPA sanctioned 51mpg highway sticker value to about 30. Honda ignored her complaint, and now she has a real chance of winning a landmark case in small claims court and Honda is taking a PR hit as the issue goes viral. A video report follows below.
Civic Hybrid owner sues Honda in small-claims court for poor gas mileage
By Linda Deutsch, Associated Press
TORRANCE — A woman who expected her Civic Hybrid to be her dream car wants Honda to pay for not delivering the 50 mpg it promised.
But rather than joining other owners in a class-action lawsuit, Heather Peters is going solo against the automaker in small-claims court, an unusual move that could offer a bigger payout. And if successful, it could open the door to a flood of similar lawsuits.
…
Peters, a former lawyer, says that as her vehicle’s battery deteriorated, it got only 30 mpg.
When Honda ignored her complaints, she filed legal papers seeking reimbursement for her trouble and the extra money she spent on gas. The suit could cost the company up to $10,000.
If other Civic owners follow her lead, she estimates Honda could be forced to pay as much as $2 billion in damages. No high-priced lawyers are involved, and the process is streamlined.
“I would not be surprised if she won,” said Richard Cupp Jr., who teaches product-liability law at Pepperdine University. “The judge will have a lot of discretion, and the evidentiary standards are relaxed in small-claims court.”
…
Peters opted out of a series of class-action lawsuits filed on behalf of Honda hybrid owners when she saw a proposed settlement would give plaintiffs no more than $200 cash and a rebate of $500 or $1,000 to purchase a new Honda.
The settlement would give trial lawyers $8.5 million, Peters said.
“I was shocked,” she said. “I wrote to Honda and said I would take $7,500, which was then the limit on small-claims in California. It is going up to $10,000 in 2012.”
…
She said she also offered to trade her hybrid for a comparable car with a manual transmission, the only thing she trusted at that point.
“I wrote the letter and I said, ‘If you don’t respond, I will file a suit in small-claims court.’ I gave them my phone number,” she said. “They never called.”
Here’s the video new report from AP:
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I used to work for Honda in Swindon, England. This will be bad PR for them indeed. I am also pretty sure Honda will have a disclaimer on any sales brouchure about milage and in the UK at least, all MPG figures are quoted at a constant motorway/highway speed of 56MPH. But as has been stated, the EPA made the claims, not Honda. This could get inteersting.
Mike Wryley says:
January 5, 2012 at 9:07 pm
“Electric/hybrid cars are still a niche item. The Prius is a popular cab in Vegas, but most of them
are rattle traps. The mail carrier probably puts up with the ride because he also gets paid by the mile…………. how building a concept based on the false premise of climate change and CO2 reduction has hurt both Honda ………..and it’s customers.”
Electric/Hybrid or whatever, It’s not because of climate change and CO2, making options for the future of energy sources has been the main reason so far. Do you want to drive your fossil based fuels until the oil is no longer within your reach then stop and park it in your parking or aside of the roads and streets?
In my view, she is probably a lead-foot driver. On the web site Fuelly there are 66 civic hybrids with user reported average US mpg ranging from 22 to 60 with a median of around 45. Like the window sticker says, Your Mileage May Vary.
I own a 2000 Honda Insight that currently has 84000 miles on it. This last labor day weekend took a road trip that covered 840 miles at an average of 75.9 mpg (91 mpg for you UK folks). I wasn’t hypermiling it either, average speed for the whole trip was 56 mph. Usual cruise speed between 60-65 mph. I live in Alaska and the majority of the roads are two lane outside the population centers.
This car has always made me wonder what is wrong with all other vehicles. Why can’t my Nissan Frontier get 35 mpg? or my Mustang 40 mpg? The reason I own the Insight is not to save the world, I just find it a fascinating piece of automotive technology.
Jim Baker
Anchorage Alaska
She said that the battery went dead. Whatever the reason, the battery could have been damaged by the deep discharge. Battery life varies widely due to use patterns, ambient temperature and charge rates. Most batteries are shot after 5 years anyway. Epa mileage is based on a standard test cycle and may have no relation to actual driving. I get more on long highway drives and less other times.
Enviro EV nuts assume that batteries never deteriorate. Actually they start aging the day they are made. This lady is just a nitwit. That’s why she bought a hybrid.
1st
James ibbotson says:
January 5, 2012 at 2:41 pm
You lead booted barsteward! They are rather fun though aren’t they? Especially if you press & hold the DTC button until what we call the death triangle comes on!
Fuel economy…
Can only speak for the cars I’ve driven.
Diesels, eg BMW 635, (quite a large car,) do pretty well against say a Pious! (Not driven any other hybrid.)
In fact, the Pious is pretty crap on a long run. No performance either.
DaveE.
Patrick Davis says:
January 5, 2012 at 9:21 pm
UK figures are now.
Motorway, urban & combined cycle.
How they figure the combined cycle I have yet to fathom.
DaveE.
Has nobody heard of double jeopardy?
If this case wins, even in small claims court, there is a reasonable chance no other case can be brought. (Unless double jeopardy applies only to criminal cases.)
Oh… and many modern cars are unreliable. The reason: lots more electronics. Engine control computers, sensors, and other junk all make cars that run really nicely. When they run. When they stop it costs an arm and a leg to fix them.
Ye Olde Notice & Disclaimer:
When guys start gassing about their cars, it’s very much like when they start yammering about sex.
The veracity level is almost as high too 😉 🙂
Phil R says:
January 5, 2012 at 8:01 pm
mizimi says:
January 5, 2012 at 10:25 am
“Only makes sense when you understand she is a lawyer.”
Phil R….Astute!
Look at those who have been sitting and waiting for such a propaganda!
Yes indeed, I’ll second that.
I’ve just bought a Skoda Octavia Greenline, which is a diesel and which will do an average of 74MPG (UK gallons). The Octavia is a family saloon similar to the Ford Mondeo or VW Passat – and this mileage outdoes any of the hybrids on the market here in the UK. It also has 20,000 mile service intervals.
With fuel at £1.40 per liter here in the UK, cars like the Octavia make a lot of sense.
Someone said above : “Anybody with a modicum of common sense understands mileage claims assume the vehicle is in 100% condition..and yes, even batteries have a working life which means as they age they become less efficient. ”
Others are calling her a nitwit etc etc. implying that this is somehow her own fault.
But if anyone supplied me with anything at all which suffered a 40% reduction in performance (mpg, lbs of washing in the tub, range of the cell phone, copies per fill for the printer, ….. WHATEVER) I wouldn’t just want them to take it back, I would want compensation for the misrepresentations as to performance at the time of sale. If a 40% reduction in performance is to be expected after only a year it should absolutely be advised to the customer, in which case I at least, would not buy it in the first place (and I suspect that most others would not either, and that is why the seller failed to make the information available).
This is not a case of lawyer, or whoever getting what she deserved, or an issue of saving the world, or making the EPA look good, silly or whatever…… this is a simple case of misrepresentation by a seller. No more, no less!
Apparently, many of you would happily connive at that misrepresentation on the basis that the buyer is a particular sort of person! Come off it! Genius or idiot, we are all entitled to be provided with accurate and full information about the purchases we make from a seller. End of story.
Kohl P
I have just come home from a trip of more than 400km (one way) in our Ford Falcon. OK it is not a hybrid car, but the situation with MPG is very relevant. Whilst on our trip we actually discussed this case because it has been highlighted here in Australia.
These are my observations that relate not to the hybrid but to my own experience with various cars. The Ford is great because it has an onboard computer that calculates driving range. I check this a lot and feel confident that I understand the process.
First of all, using a mix of ethanol/petrol (gas) does not increase the mpg. I have found from experience driving on the open road that we got less range, therefore straight unleaded petrol is best. Second, the catalyctic converter is a must when using unleaded petrol in a modern car. Third, country driving and city driving get different results. There is more stopping and starting with city driving, and each time the brake is touched the mpg average goes down. This is something that I have checked on a regular basis. It is also something observed during our trip. The average was high during the open road part of the trip, but it dropped rapidly as soon as we hit the “city” and slower driving.
Third, lowered speed limits in built up areas cause a car to get worse fuel mileage, which would mean that the Honda would suffer if this is where the woman has been driving. Again, I have observed exactly what happens and how the av mpg is affected.
Fourth, did the woman use the battery more often, or did she mostly use the gas side of the car? If she was using electric then mpg should go up!! However, if she neglected to do the switch then her mpg would be affected, especially in city driving!!
The other thing pointed out by the news people over here is that the method of testing is out of touch with reality. Was that figure based upon open road or city conditions? There is a lot of variance.
Walter says:
January 5, 2012 at 11:32 pm
Say what?
The way you’re reading double jeopardy, Someone who murders 5 people, once convicted of the 1st murder cannot be tried for the other 4!
DaveE.
Even a 3 series BMW will deliver beter than a pious or many other hybrids, we have one on our fleet as a courtesy car it regulalry delivers 54-60 mpg
We also have Some Seats and a Golf Blue Motion again these cars are delivering a regular 54-56 MPG with the Golf being the most effecient and best return on that was 64 mpg over a week with a customer.
Rumour has it the new BMW 3 series diesels wil be turning in 70MPG+ when loosened up
Why anyone would buy these cars has always been something of a puzzle to me, they appear to be neither “greener” nor more “effecient” than alternative regular cars these days?
I have a 2003 Renault Clio 1.5 DCi Diesel. It returns 60MPG (UK Gallons) and only costs 30 pounds per year in road tax. It’s done 102,000 miles, never let me down and in total has only cost about 3000 pounds in servicing/repair/maintenance costs over the past 8 years.
Under normal driving conditions, the battery should last the life of the hybrid vehicle.
That gives you a hint.
Not only do the batteries deteriorate over the life of the vehicle, the electric motors, the conversion circuitry and the petrol driven engine also deteriorates.
Experience by cab owners who have used hybrids has shown it’s false economy to replace a worn battery. As the battery wears down the small engine gets more and more use. The electric motors deteriorate and use up more battery power.
Non government buyers of hybrid vehicles can be described as “niche” buyers. No amount of argument or logic will convince them of the blind faith of belief in the correctness of these vehicles.
The Japanese created this “Niche” market for hybrids. The European manufacturers are following suit even though they don’t believe in the future of the hybrid. – Marketing trumps substance.
Let us return to 1960, I drove a renault R8 the quitest and most comfortable drive I have ever owned. Four wheel independent radial tuned suspension, Four wheel floating caliper disc brakes with single ply steel radial tyres. The most aerodynamic wind tunnel tested car on the road at the time. The most comfortable and quitest ride short of a RR yet cheap as chips, 50 to 60 MPG in Alpine trim 150 MPH. My question WTF, has happened since 1960 for us to have regressed so far.
“One solution is to force dealers to post a warning that the mileage the EPA says the car can expect may be unreasonable and false.”
We don’t care who said what, but that the advertising the company uses is truthful about facts they claim and to sell us fit for purpose goods that function as described.
Otherwise what is to stop the car dealer from pulling this kind of trick: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/05/09/toy-yoda.htm or perhaps delivering a kid’s toy model of what you thought you’ve bought?
Hybrid vs ICE – Top Gear style:
No gas only vehicle manufactured since the late 80’s would experience anything like at 40% drop in MPG until it had become mechanically unsound. In this case, it’s the entire concept of a hybrid that is unsound. She’s completely right and I hope she wins and gets the maximum settlement. If she weren’t essentially correct, why is there a large class action suit going forward? There are a lot of aggrieved Honda hybrid owners.
Having said that, the way you drive can have a dramatic impact on MPG. My ’90 Kawasaki ZX-9R get just over 50mpg in street riding. That’s blowing by most traffic too. Sustained freeway speeds north of 80mph.
That same bike at a track day at a race track gets about 7.5mpg.
“Fourth, did the woman use the battery more often, or did she mostly use the gas side of the car? If she was using electric then mpg should go up!! However, if she neglected to do the switch then her mpg would be affected, especially in city driving!!”
Hondas do not have a switch.
It is all down to how you drive.
Lead foot runs more electric motor. There are handy meters that show how much electric power you are using and how much charge you are getting and current milage and range.
The meters are intended to help you stop wasting gas taking off like a jackrabbit, and optimize your charges by stopping smoothly and not just jamming the brakes at a light.
And it works.
The 2010 Insght that my wife drives works perfect;y. 40-45 around town 50-60 on the highway.
It has a colored light system that cues you when you are wasting gas,
If you don’t mind driving very gently, you can get 60mpg in town easily.
If this lady NEVER got better than 40, even new, it is a good bet that either the battery was never right, or that she never even tried to drive it for milage. In this case probably both.
Every new car has a EPA sticker and EPA current test cycle at that time gave an estimate of 51 mpg HWY. City use of course is way lower. Driver habits, driving condition, use of A/C and many other variables will affect the real mpg. Prior to 2008 the EPA test cycle did not reflect the actual driving conditions of most users, and max 55 mph. In 2008 the EPA test procedures got changed and EPA estimates on all vehicles got changed to a lower number. Check at Fuelly.com to see your vehicles actual fuel efficiency among owners.
Strange she complained after 5 years of ownership. If she wins, then can we expect a rush of law suits in small claims court from owners of all makes of cars. Check out at Fuelly.com and see for yourself how owners of other brands are experiencing less than EPA mpg. Should car makers sue EPA for using wrong test methods?
This is a perfect use of the justice system as far as I’m concerned. They should outlaw class actions because the consumers rarely get compensated, and the lawyers nearly always make out like bandits….thereby encouraging even more of the same. I hope this woman’s action leads to much more of the same. If it bankrupts the companies that put out shoddy products, so much the better.
Take roofing. Certainteed made crap shingles for years (at least for northern climates) and lost a huge class action suit. Now I have to spend over 10 grand to replace a roof that should have lasted another 20 years or better with just average shingles. And I get a check for a little over $1,000 as compensation. Any small claims court judge would be easily convinced by pictures of the shingles on many of the houses around the Midwest that the homeowners had been sold a shoddy product, so these would be open and shut cases in small claims, if the amounts allowed were sufficient.
The problem in many states is that the small claims limit is relatively low, I believe, though maybe this is changing. I suspect the law industry would love to keep it low. Arghh…I now see that Wisconsin has a $5,000 limit and I’ve already signed away my rights to sue…see how that works? Wish I’d read this article a few months ago.
I am not a lawyer – but I believe she should lose as she is suing the wrong party. Advertizing is enticement, and requires somewhat of a suspension of disbelief. The EPA created the rating, and mandated by regulation how and where it will be used. Pity the judge can’t hold the EPA accountable for its unintended consequences – that gangreenous outfit needs to be cut down to knee-high size!
Dr. Dave I think you’re painting with too broad of a brush.
My reason for buying a Camry hybrid was because I needed a family sized car and most of my driving is short distance with a lot of stop and go traffic – a situation where a hybrid gets better mileage with all things being equal. With gas prices going through the roof, I felt the savings would add up in time and they have.
I got between 37 and 40 MPG when it was new. I still get between 37 and 40 at five years out. I haven’t noticed any degradation in mileage, distance the car will travel on battery only, or performance. The vehicle has seen no repairs beyond oil changes. My brakes have seen only about 20-25% wear thanks to the regeneration system. It’s not unusual to get 200,000+ miles out of the main battery before needing to replace it. The cost to replace it with a new battery is around $2,500 and dropping (it was around $5,000 back when the car was new). A tested used battery (yes, they’re available) can be had for < $1,000.
But lets switch from focusing on the battery and have a look at the bigger picture. I also own a Land Rover. Here's some real stats (both over a five year period):
Land Rover:
Two brake jobs: ~$2,000
Replace faulty CDL: ~$4,000
Repair oil leak: ~$1,200.00
Regular oil changes: ~$900.00
Annual smog check: ~$30.00
Annual registration: ~$500.00
—————–
Total: ~$8,630
Camry Hybrid:
Repairs: $0.00
Brake jobs: $0.00
Regular oil changes: ~$600.00
Annual smog check: $0.00
Annual registration: ~$300.00
—————–
Total: ~$900.00
I could replace the battery twice with a new battery in the hybrid and still have a car that’s less expensive to maintain than my Land Rover. When it comes to gas mileage and the price of gas, I’m even farther ahead. Call me a sucker but I would buy another Camry hybrid again.