This is novel. A woman who is upset with Honda over lack of promised gas mileage on her HondaCivic Hybrid. It seems as the battery aged, the mileage went from the EPA sanctioned 51mpg highway sticker value to about 30. Honda ignored her complaint, and now she has a real chance of winning a landmark case in small claims court and Honda is taking a PR hit as the issue goes viral. A video report follows below.
Civic Hybrid owner sues Honda in small-claims court for poor gas mileage
By Linda Deutsch, Associated Press
TORRANCE — A woman who expected her Civic Hybrid to be her dream car wants Honda to pay for not delivering the 50 mpg it promised.
But rather than joining other owners in a class-action lawsuit, Heather Peters is going solo against the automaker in small-claims court, an unusual move that could offer a bigger payout. And if successful, it could open the door to a flood of similar lawsuits.
…
Peters, a former lawyer, says that as her vehicle’s battery deteriorated, it got only 30 mpg.
When Honda ignored her complaints, she filed legal papers seeking reimbursement for her trouble and the extra money she spent on gas. The suit could cost the company up to $10,000.
If other Civic owners follow her lead, she estimates Honda could be forced to pay as much as $2 billion in damages. No high-priced lawyers are involved, and the process is streamlined.
“I would not be surprised if she won,” said Richard Cupp Jr., who teaches product-liability law at Pepperdine University. “The judge will have a lot of discretion, and the evidentiary standards are relaxed in small-claims court.”
…
Peters opted out of a series of class-action lawsuits filed on behalf of Honda hybrid owners when she saw a proposed settlement would give plaintiffs no more than $200 cash and a rebate of $500 or $1,000 to purchase a new Honda.
The settlement would give trial lawyers $8.5 million, Peters said.
“I was shocked,” she said. “I wrote to Honda and said I would take $7,500, which was then the limit on small-claims in California. It is going up to $10,000 in 2012.”
…
She said she also offered to trade her hybrid for a comparable car with a manual transmission, the only thing she trusted at that point.
“I wrote the letter and I said, ‘If you don’t respond, I will file a suit in small-claims court.’ I gave them my phone number,” she said. “They never called.”
Here’s the video new report from AP:
The “green economy” is shown to be a false idea again.
And yet there are still those who don’t understand why people get upset with the environment movement.
“No high-priced lawyers are involved, and the process is streamlined.”
….excellent move
30MPG and all the safety of a golf cart…
How much do these cost?
Better trade it in on a Hummer, at least then you get some Honda Civic crumpling bumpers.
I have read somewhere that the epa mileage estimates are established using straight gasoline, without ethanol. If that is the case, then the estimates are useless right from the start, since ethanol free gasoline is very difficult to find.
Only makes sense when you understand she is a lawyer. Did she sue when her gas only car stopped giving her 40mpg as the engine wore and went out of spec? No, I guess not. But Honda would have claimed various mileages in the advert for that car. So where is the difference? Anybody with a modicum of common sense understands mileage claims assume the vehicle is in 100% condition..and yes, even batteries have a working life which means as they age they become less efficient. But hey, if you can make a buck or two out of it……………….
“Peters, a former lawyer, says that as her vehicle’s battery deteriorated, it got only 30 mpg”
A few years ago I attended a talk by an engineer from British company Lotus. Best known for their sports cars, they also have a world class R & D department. This has been doing a lot of work on fuel economy and alternative fuels/hybrids. He arrived in a Prius which they had been pulling to bits as part of their work. He mentioned exactly the above scenario – but thought it likely that the majority of customers wouldn’t realise this was happening for several years. Obviously Heather Peters is smarter than most…
Last year, I raised this issue with CARB. They indicated that they hadn’t considered what the fuel efficiency of an aged vehicle might be despite the fact that it relies on batteries that degrade with time. Much like the push towards E85, the government didn’t think through the issues involved with their decisions.
“Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.” Or, in this case, ignored!
Physics happens!
The overdue revelation that the battery is in gradual decline will be made up by loss in fuel mileage is divine providence. The green movement duped folks into believing they are helping save the planet;with false notion these vehicles are green, which is not the case.
Sorry, but I laugh at every instance I see one of those green machines. Whatever happened in Brazil with those H2 vehicles? Or, water cars (in warm climates of course)?
Awesome, this is how its gonna end. In the law courts, with all the pseudo-green BS finally called to account in front of a judge. How do we sue Hansen, Santer, Mann et al? How do we sue the wind turbine and solar panel companies? Non of those products put out the power the promoters said they would, when they applied for permission/tax payers money to put them up. My local turbine has turned 3 days of the last 3 months!!! Lets sue and get some facts in the open.
When I was a rich college kid, I purchased a new Kharman Ghia convertible to do spring break. It did nearly 40. My son had a couple of older Civics that also did near 40. Why so good? No pollution control apparatus. We are not making progress. Maybe that is why they call them “progressives”.
Dave Worley says: “I have read somewhere that the epa mileage estimates are established using straight gasoline, without ethanol. If that is the case, then the estimates are useless right from the start, since ethanol free gasoline is very difficult to find.”
No kidding. There is no public sign that says “be ware, ethanol produces less energy than gasoline” …count the carbon chains…. Like eat sugar or eat saturated fat. I’ll take the butter.. 🙂
It just hit me. The presenting problem here is not Honda. It is EPA law that forces the sticker to disclose the MPG and the rating came from THE EPA. If the car only does 30, then EPA should give it a 30 MPG rating.
mizimi says:
January 5, 2012 at 10:25 am
======================================
…..car’s only 5 years old…she says it never got what was promised
“Heather Peters, who says her 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid, never achieved the 50 mpg Honda claimed in its advertising, …
The solution is simple…
bailout the auto companies!
mizimi: So where is the difference?
The size of the deterioration. Down to 30, a 40% decline, does not happen in most automobiles as they age, and certainly not after 5 years.
My 2002 Honda Civic (pre-electric, 4-cylinder ICE with an automatic transmission) routinely gets 31-32 mpg according to the on-board odometer and the state-licensed fuel pumps I use. (I use the trip meter in lieu of the gas gauge as it is far more precise).
Maybe Honda should jump off the electric bandwagon…
Go diesel.
My 2005 Citroen C5 twin turbo diesel (a big 5-door saloon), still does 60mpg on the open road at 60mph, and 40 mpg in town driving. (UK gallons). And that is with 140,000 miles on the clock.
http://static.productreview.com.au/pr.products/2001-citroen-c5-saloon_4d9006fe3fc0e.jpg
Electric vehicles will never make any sense until:
a. All electrical generation is nuclear.
b. Someone invents a better battery.
.
AP Source: GM to call back 8,000 Chevy Volts
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-gm-call-back-8-000-chevy-160059632.html
Mizimi,
A tuneup costs $100 or less. A battery pack costs $10K or more. A set of spark plugs in the land fill doesn’t poison anyone, a bunch of Lithium does.
So as my petrol engine slowly looses performance over the years and starts to use more fuel I can sue the manufacturer for producing something that doesnt work perfectly forever? Sweet! Lets all go sue car manufacturers for something that would obviously happen ;0)
>>Small claims.
>>No high-priced lawyers are involved, and the
>>process is streamlined.
Indeed. A word of useful advice:
I thought Small Claims Courts (UK) were all about defective washing machines and botched garage repairs.
But no. I had a fairly complex corporate case that was not valued at too much (£20,000), so I asked if I could go to the Small Claims. They said ‘yes’ and I won. Cost me about £50 to process.
And if I remember correctly, if your claim is below a certain value, the opposition cannot threaten you with their court costs. A standard tactic in the UK is for big companies to hire expensive lawyers, and then threaten you not with ‘truth’ or ‘justice’, but with the entire cost of their lawyer team if you loose (say a cool £450,000). They win the case through threats of bankrupting you, and not through honesty or justice. As I remember, that cannot happen in the Small Claims Court.
.
But lead-footed driving can make such a difference. Read the recent Car & Driver article on EPA mileage estimates (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates).
Bumper sticker seen on a mid 70’s 4×4 3/4 ton pickup (pre airbags) with heavy steel push bars, skid plates, over sized axles, tires, and bumpers:
“May I borrow your crumple zone”
Henry chance says:
January 5, 2012 at 10:56 am
When I was a rich college kid, I purchased a new Kharman Ghia convertible to do spring break. It did nearly 40. My son had a couple of older Civics that also did near 40. Why so good? No pollution control apparatus. We are not making progress. Maybe that is why they call them “progressives”.
_______________________
My first car was a brand new 1992 Pontiac Sunbird with 4 cyl. engine and AC, ABS, frontwheel drive. That car got 42 mpg on the highway. And that was even using gasohol. And I didn’t have to carry a ton of fire-prone LiPo batteries in the trunk.
And to beat that, my girlfriend had a VW Rabbit Diesel. That got about 50mpg on a bad day.
Just thought I would add that my 12 year old 220BHP petrol driven car (0-60mph in 6.3 seconds) can get better than 30mpg! Its light weight (around 1050kg’s) and manual which helps with the fuel and cost me far less than a new hybrid car and its way more fun to drive! There a sucker born every minute. Then again, I am not American, and I know the Americans like to drive big heavy cars with big fuel guzzling engines – go to the UK – 30mpg is considered a fuel guzzler!
In less than five years the hybrid loses 40% of its capability. What a great technology!
I imagine in Canada’sa cold climate that the POS would lose more like 80% of its stated mileage.
One more decline for the greenies to hide, eh mizimi?
EPA made the estimates, not Honda. There are so many variables involved in actual attained MPG, that this woman’s small claims action seems frivolous to this non-lawyer.
From Consumer Reports:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/resource-center/fuel-economy/epa-mileage-figures/overview/0709_mpg_ov.htm
I drive an old Civic, and my mileage will vary between about 25 and about 40, depending on numerous variables, including wind.
Who would have thought that batteries would deteriorate over time? (Hint – almost anyone who has ever used a battery powered anything).
I used to own a 2000 VW Jetta TDI – 48-52 MPG for 5 years as advertised.
Henry Chance – no, emission controls don’t account for the difference. Modern engine controls are enormously more efficient than old carburetors.
What does? Simple. That Ghia, and those early Civics, weighed maybe 1800lb.
A present-day Civic is around two feet longer, almost a foot wider, and a bunch taller than a ’75 Civic, and weighs over 3000lb. You’ve got a fair bit more interior room – but also air conditioning, automatic transmission, massively more structure, a truckload of seatbelts and airbags and stereo speakers and sound insulation and so on and so forth.
There are few if any big, cheap cars anymore, and what we think of as a ‘big’ car now is not particularly large by ’70s standards…but small cars have gotten much, much, much bigger. You could put a 1965 Mustang completely inside a 2011 Mustang, the new one is just a bit longer – but much wider, much taller, and a thousand pounds heavier.
A Ford Escape is quite a small SUV, yet I saw one yesterday next to a ’62 Corvair at a traffic light and it might as well have been my Suburban.
I have a 1994 Honda Civic VX. It got 54mpg on the highway when it was new (better if I drove extremely conservatively.) It is now 17 years old and gets 42mpg on the highway (on which it rarely goes due to a few mechanical issues my 200,000+ mile 17 year old car.) In the city it still gets about 40mpg.
I plan to do a complete tear down and rebuild on it next year and see if I can get back near 50 again. This was on a standard fuel injected 1.5L I4 VTEC-E motor and 5 speed transmission. Too bad the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration upped the crash rating requirements so high you could not build this car today. It is a great drive to work car but definitely not a family sedan. Honda built these from 1993-1995 in very low numbers.
Even if Honda won most or all of these cases, it will be *incredibly* expensive. This is kind of a novel tactic (it’s been done before but I’m not sure on this scale). She can create an awful lot of leverage by encouraging others to follow. Honda may end up wishing this was a class action. Defending against hundreds or thousands of court cases, even in small claims, is at least as expensive as paying them off.
Honda seems to be relearning the fact that customer service is a lot less expensive than the alternative. That is not to say that all the demands are reasonable, but they chose to offer a product without compensating for significant downsides, and it looks like it’s going to hurt.
Ralph – diesels are fine, but…
1) diesel engines and their fuel systems are typically more expensive to build, which has mostly kept them out of the cheap-car end of the market,
2) fuel taxation in the US penalizes diesel,
3) meeting recent particulate requirements in California and other similarly-regulated states means very complex and maintenance-intensive emission control systems.
(Second try; first went bye-bye)
EPA made the mileage estimate, not Honda. Driving skill, traffic, local conditions, average length of trips, weather, etc. all affect achieved average MPG.
From Consumer Reports:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/resource-center/fuel-economy/epa-mileage-figures/overview/0709_mpg_ov.htm
My older Civic returns between about 25 and as much as 44 MPG, depending on numerous variables, including the weather. Honda makes great cars. This frivolous action will only serve to increase costs for all of us.
Class action suits are usually designed to benefit the lawyers, and nobody else.
I looked at the Civic Hybrid when it first came out and the dealer could not answer two very important questions: How do you replace the battery in 5 years (and how much will it cost)? and Why doesn’t this get as good mileage as my 94 Civic VX? They had no idea what I was talking about on the battery and denied there was such a thing as a Honda with a 54mpg EPA rating. Do I need to add that I walked out of there before he even finished talking?
mizimi says:
January 5, 2012 at 10:25 am
My 90,000 mile Saturn is still getting within a mile or two per gallon, the same gas mileage it did when it was new. My last Saturn did the same.
While mileage will drop slightly as the car ages, this woman saw a 40% decline in mileage.
As long as we are comparing vehicles, we need to keep in mind the overall cost to keep it on the road.
I drive a 1999 Ford F-150 4×4 pickup, standard bed. Now have about 240,000 miles on it, with minimal problems. And, it gets 15 mpg. According to the Obama administration and the progressive Congress of 2009, a “clunker.”
I’m happy as heck. Why?
My truck has been paid for for more than 9 years. No vehicle payments, zip, zero, nada, other than insurance and regular maintenance costs.
Why, you may ask, did I not take “advantage” of the “Cash for Clunkers” program?
I’m not an idiot, and plan to retire early.
Justa Joe says:
January 5, 2012 at 11:39 am
[AP Source: GM to call back 8,000 Chevy Volts]
—
GM said the Volt’s battery should have been drained after the crash, but it never told NHTSA to do that. Later, two GM executives said the company had no formal procedure to drain the batteries until after the June fire. GM has said that the liquid solution used to cool the Volt’s battery leaked and crystallized, causing an electrical short that touched off the fire.
The company now sends out a team to drain the batteries after being notified of a crash by GM’s OnStar safety system.
—
Draining batteries after a crash is a Green Job.
I would expect that the cost of the ‘clean up’ will exceed the profit on the vehicle.
Team + Team Transport + Hazmat Gear + Hazardous waste transport + Hazardous waste disposal + Site scrubbing (and potentially resurfacing) + Really bad press.
Traffic Report: The accident has been pulled over to the side but it will be a few hours before CARB finishes the environmental assessment and lets the the GM Hazmat team get to work, so 101 Northbound at Amphitheater Parkway is closed for until further notice. Your best choice would be to exit at Old Middlefield Way and re-enter from San Antonio Road.
Batteries, even the highly vaunted lithium ion rechargeables have a relatively short active lifetime. Big, heavy, lead-acid deep-cycle batteries, if properly serviced have a longer lifespan than the fanciest lithium ion batteries. Lithium ion batteries are analogous to PV panels – they start to degrade as soon as they’re put into use. Hybrid buyers are suckers. Those who buy used hybrids are even bigger suckers.
This is just the tip of an iceberg which has been allowed by government to grow in magnitude over the past 30+ years.
Bare faced lying by purveyors of various things. In this case rightly caught but in a way it is not fair on Honda, are merely one. They have little choice when others lie and the level playing field of honesty is not pro actively enforced.
The claimed performance must be the limit worst case and somewhere fully specified.
Same thing as food purity laws, cellphone promoters only stating maximum battery last (an utterly useless figure), politics is full of it… as is the media, academia and well, you know.
I haven’t seen this degradation in mpg with our Prius. It is used to deliver mail. It gets about 30-32 during winter and 38-40 during summer. Compare that to 8-10 with the truck. Very few 4 cylinder cars have lasted long; the Prius so far has been very reliable and cost effective for this application. Everything about it has been better than straight gas vehicle.
Normal driving (not delivering mail) during warm months it still gets 50-55 quite easily @55 mph.
The car has over 90k on it.
I’m not sure, it sounds like something else is wrong with that Honda other than the battery. It should be noted that Toyota and Honda use two completely different systems, so maybe her issue is unique to Honda. That large of a drop seems excessive.
When hybrids first came out the EPA estimates were over optimistic, but they changed the way they do the calculation and now hybrids do better than the EPA numbers.
By US law, automakers are only allowed to advertise one set of numbers for the fuel economy of their vehicles; those numbers computed or discovered on the standard drive cycle. If Honda had given any numbers OTHER than the numbers they gave, they would have been breaking the law.
The numbers are a useful basis for comparison, they are not a guarantee. If she wins this case it will be a) a travesty of justice and b) the end of EVERY automaker.
It’s tempting to gloat, but this case is really just more insufferable nonsense from sue-crazy America.
What’s next? I should sue Budweiser in the small parasite’s court after having seen the advertising which grandiously claims Budweiser to be ‘the king of beers’, buying a carton with correspondingly high expectations but finding that drinking such panther’s urine is actually rather like copulating in a canoe, and then going on to prove that I could have acheived enebriation more rapidly and subsequently been hung over more powerfully by drinking real ale (like Spitfire Ale); thus concluding that clearly Bud is in no way the ‘king of beers’, thus that the advertising is misleading and thence demanding Budweiser pay me compensation for my own stupidity in taking Budweiser’s advertising so anally retentively literally.
Maybe I can also sue Levis for selling me jeans that the advertising implies are tough once they inevitably wear out (and I claim to be too retarded to see it coming).
No, this case is nothing good at all, it is a shameful WOfTAM and should be thrown out of court by any judge with two neurons to rub together.
All honda has to do is point out that the vulture in question doesn’t drive the car under the exact laboratory ideal conditions in which the efficiency figures were recorded (no doubt there is small print beneath the published efficiency figures to this effect) and they should probably also manange to demonstrate that the car wasn’t maintained exactly as the manufacturer recommended; did she inflate the tyres every day so that they were always at the recommended pressure?, did she carry the weight of bags and any of the other crap that accumulates in a typical car? Did she use the manufacturer’s recommended POL? Was the battery treated exactly as per the manual? (smallprint about temperature affects on performance and so on).
I seriously hope the daft oxygen theif loses the case and has to stump up for exaggerated legal costs. In addition to being cautioned for wasting the court’s time and for being indecently smug in the first place (she did buy a bloody hybrid after all!).
That would send a useful message to at least some of the childish morons out there and would be poetic justice since this particular parasite is a lawyer herself.
It’s times like this I’m very happy not to live in the land of the litigous and the home of the sued.
re: the comments regarding mileage estimates based on straight gasoline as opposed to gas-anol.
I find it humouous that the stickers on my neighborhood gas pumps proudly exclaim “ Enhanced with ethanol!”
Since ethanol has less energy per gallon than gasoline, shouldn’t the sticker read “Diluted with ethanol?
GoodCheer says: January 5, 2012 at 12:32 pm
[If she wins this case it will be a) a travesty of justice]
The models say we should be seeing the mileage and it’s a travesty that we’re not.
🙂
Drove 120 miles today in my Golf Plus 2.0 TDI (diesel turbo) – averaged 57mph on 2 lane road (dual carriageway). MPG 73.3 !!! I love that car. Over 3,000 miles since I last reset the trip computer I have an average MPG of 62.8 . Can someone tell me what that is in MPG per US gallon.
@Goodcheer,
You are absolutely correct and I believe that fact (disclaimer for the MPG estimate) is spelled out on the sticker that is affixed to any new vehicle.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/why_differ.shtml
This is what the EPA says.
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Aboutratings.do#aboutfueleconomy
Peters, a former lawyer, says that as her vehicle’s battery deteriorated, it got only 30 mpg.
I could (rarely) get that w/a 1986 V8 Mustang GT (manual trans). Like some have said, I not impressed by the 25 yr “progression”.
The size of the deterioration. Down to 30, a 40% decline, does not happen in most automobiles as they age, and certainly not after 5 years.
If the vehicle is getting 30 mpg now the batteries are down a lot more than 40%, probably closer to 80-90%
Maybe she left the emergency brake on.
As is everything in life you get what you pay for, and yes there is no free lunch for the working person. I have an 87 300D turbo diesel MBZ it still gives 31 MPG on the freeway it has 314000 miles on it. I paid what I thought was a ridiculous price for it when I bought it. If I look at the years of service and the cost of overall repairs, in the long run it has been cheaper than having to buy two or three cheaper cars. It has also been very safe. I have been in 2 wrecks. In one I was rear ended by a Honda with a Vtech engine. I could tell it was a Vtech because the valve cover with the label VTECH was laying in the freeway. The damage was $800 to my car. The second time I hit a deer doing about 50. The deer blew up and took the radiator, left fender, water pump, air cond radiator etc. The hood folded where it was pre programmed to fold and shielded me from the debris. If I had hit the deer with a less robust car I would not be posting here.
My beloved ’63 Renault R8, bought for $100 in 1973, got 40 MPG without trying. It was 10 years old at the time, not in the best of shape, and I was too broke to maintain the dear critter properly. It really deserved a better owner, but it still loyally provided comfort, performance and economy.
Much better bargain than a hybrid, even if I’d bought it new.
DR a lady in Montana I believe, got one million miles on her Corolla delivering mail. Only normal maintenance. Toyota took it and gave her a new one. Will replacing your battery be called normal maintenance? That battery replacement cost will eat into your fuel savings and the Corolla most likely was not purchased with a subsidy.
I am not against the Prius or Volt type vehicles, just the unrealistic hype.
My understanding of the UK situation is that when the mileage test is done they start with a fully charged battery in a hybrid vehicle then only measure the amount of gas/petrol used. This process means that the energy stored in the battery is effectively free and so the fuel consumption will look that much better.
Maybe she doesn’t know that you are not supposed to put the gas in the battery; that wrecks the chemistry.
She should trade it in for a Fiser Karma; they only guarantee 50 miles total, and you get a much bigger auxilliary gas engine with it.
My 1972 Olds Cutlass gets about 14 mpg.
And I have no intention of getting rid of it.
Henry chance says:
January 5, 2012 at 10:58 am
“It just hit me. The presenting problem here is not Honda. It is EPA law that forces the sticker to disclose the MPG and the rating came from THE EPA. If the car only does 30, then EPA should give it a 30 MPG rating.”
Perfect opportunity for one to sue the EPA in which case the government will pay your attorney to litigate against them. The greenies do it all the time.
Take a look at this time line for inkerhol, ssssgreat stuff, hic!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_alcohol_fuel
Anyone remember Cleveland Discol?
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=MZG&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&q=CLEVELAND+DISCOL&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=0l0l0l11524l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1143&bih=689&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=EBcGT5bkHNTY8gOemf3ZAg
The word is “Anyone” not “Antone”.
thorne says:
January 5, 2012 at 12:42 pm…….. mpg us gallon vs imperial gallon is noted below-
Conversions per http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Reference/conversions.htmVolume
1 Imperial Gallon = 4.5461 liters (l)
1 liter (l) = 0.2200 Imperial Gallons
1 US Gallon = 3.7854 liters (l)
1 liter (l) = 0.2642 US gallons
1 Imperial Gallon = 1.2009 US Gallons
1 US Gallon = 0.8327 Imperial Gallons
1 liter = 61 Cubic Inches (ci) [approximate
thorne says: Can someone tell me what that is in MPG per US gallon.
The conversion is approx 4.54 litres per imperial gallon versus approx. 4 litres per US gallon – why we’re all not using SI units by now boggles the mind but, that aside the conversion is 62.8 miles per imperial gallon divided by 4.54 litres per imperial gallon = ~13.8 miles per litre – multiplied by 4 litres per US gallon = 55.33 miles per US gallon.
Nissan is marketing the “Leaf” a total electric car. It is a well established fact that all batteries suffer “exhaustion” – one could imagine that intensive use such as commuting will enhance the exhaustion effect and reduce the life expectancy.
What has gone unsaid with all these vehicles is the replacement costs for batteries is likely to be excessive compared to total cost of the vehicle – I’ve seen estimates ranging up to 75% of the car’s cost. I’ve also seen estimates that this could occur in as little as 3 years.
75% of new car cost repair in an insurance claim will surely result in write off by the insurance company at significantly reduced value estimates for the claimant. Say goodbye to a second hand car market if these estimates prove true – who is going to buy a second hand car where the cost of replacing the batteries pushes the total investment past the new price ?
I do not see electric vehicles making significant inroads unless we all accept reduced “performance” – which is probably what we should consider for uses such as commuting anyway – who needs a vehicle capable of 120 mph in traffic anyway ?
Of course reducing CO2 emissions from vehicles by switching to gas (not gasoline) powered vehicles is a simple practical step that I would have thought greens would completely endorse – technology that is available now cheaply with immediate benefits as per their paranoia.
Similarly Europe could have achieved reductions by switching to gas fired electricity instead of achieving the opposite by investing in renewables according to recent studies.
Billions spent, emissions up and still facing the dilemma of replacing older power stations.
Let me remind those from the UK that a US gallon is significantly smaller than a “real” gallon.
So be careful in comparing your mpg in the UK with that in the US.
In summary, legislation requiring milage standards and lessened co2 emissions are going to be complete fraud from start to finish; they will rest on inflated or deflated numbers reporting, while
the companies and the government do not consider themselves responsible for the actual milage of the car.
And yet this is the standard they want to impose on gasoline powered vehicles and light trucks which we all need and use in our daily business?
Maximum fuel efficiency= maximum CO2 Output. Now what ‘Pollution’ are they trying to prevent?
http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/01/autos/honda_civic_hybrid_battery_problems/index.htm
Inferior batter choice compared to the Prius?
Somewhere along the line, the battery in this woman’s car has been horribly abused.
This may be due to the owner herself or a fault in either the design of the car or the actual car itself.
Why..
Rechargeable batteries that we are most likely to come across (Lead/Acid, NiCad or Lithium) are typically good for 1000 (plus or minus 500) charge/discharge cycles. That’s a fact of life, period.
What counts is how deep and prolonged those cycles are – a cycle where 80% of the charge remains in the battery doesn’t actually count as a cycle. Also,and as many motorists here will know, if you flatten a lead acid battery and don’t immediately recharge, you’ve killed it. Dead. Most especially so with so-called ‘heavy duty’ batteries.
There again, motorists here and elsewhere will recount stories of their batteries lasting 10 years+ and being used daily. Yes, because if your engine is a ‘good starter’, less than 20% of the battery is used to start it and it is immediately recharged. The battery doesn’t tally that up in its ‘cycle count’
That is the secret to good battery life, the same applies to all rechargeables (apart from NiCads- they prefer to be flat all the time) Something has gone badly wrong here with Honda’s car, it should have been designed to protect the battery better than it obviously has done.
Andrew32 says “The models say we should be seeing the mileage and it’s a travesty that we’re not.
🙂
”
No no clearly she is a denier because she is citing real world numbers as if they some how are more valid than computer models. Doesn’t she realize that computer models are the only acceptable way to view the world?
I used to manage 25-30 mpg out of a 2.5 ltr straight six BMW Z4. UK mpg.
I’m currently getting 55-60 on motor way runs from a straight Audi diesel.
30 USMPG is shocking. But the I still don’t see why she is complaining considering the cheap price of gas over there £1.30 a ltr at the moment in th UK.
If I remember correctly, there were problems with the battery as it aged; and it was a NiMH battery. NiMH batteries, frequently used in hybrid cars, are made only by one manufacturer, in S Korea I think; and he has a certain amount of effort to prepare for production for the batch of your batteries so as a client you can practically only order batches of 100,000 or so, otherwise the production is very uneconomical. The battery packs are not standardized. Every client needs different ones. NiMH is a very nice and cheap technology but due to patents, it is only one manufacturer who makes them. For some reason they were never interested in giving out licenses for other manufacturers – maybe they want to enforce artificial scarcity to be able to demand higher prices. Li-Ion would not have taken off the way it did without this situation.
Well that’s why Honda, when seeing the mileage in their hybrids go down, they gave the cars that appeared in garages all over the world with complaints from their drivers, a secret software upgrade that disabled the battery, turning a hybrid into an ordinary ICE engine. They simply had no spare NiMH battery packs for all the cars that turned up.
Now you have a simple ICE car, only heavier. Oh and you paid more for it.
My ’69 Corvette got 13 city, 18 highway. Am I on the the wrong thread?
Honda has a real serious issue on their hands.
The class action lawsuit was brought because their batteries dramatically under perform after a short period of time. What Honda did, and she complained about, is that they went in and reprogrammed her car and other Civic hybrids so the cars would depend less on the battery. This reprogramming was meant to save Honda warranty costs because more batteries would survive past the warranty period.
The result of the reprogramming was that her gas mileage dramatically went down.
I think she has a real claim.
JEM says:
January 5, 2012 at 12:02 pm
I own a 2010 VW Jetta TDI in which the sticker said 30mpg city and 42mpg highway. Consumer Reports said the average MPG would be 34. I have had the car 17 months and my worst avg on a tank was 43mpg and the best was 51mpg. I did a 330 mile trip loaded with 4 people and trunk full of stuff (ever see the large trunk a Jetta has?) and averaged 47mpg on that trip (still had more than 1/2 a tank of Diesel left).
Oh this car has leather, Sat Radio, Sunroof, all the goodies and cost me $24k brand new. It is larger and more fun to drive than either the Prius or Civic.
This is eventually going to kill the hybrid. For efficency-eurodeisel,,,,
What would Judge Judy make of it?
My Saturn twin-cam got 39 mpg in mountain driving on several occasions, and once 40 (may have been a slight over-fill involved, so I don’t count it.) The EPA sticker claimed only 34 mpg, so I’ve never had any complaints. I consider buying a hybrid or all-electric an act of extreme foolishness. A friend recently bought a “Smart” Car, a vehicle that I shudder to look at. Well, someone plowed into the back of it with a piece of Detroit iron two weeks ago. The Tridion steel safety shell held up very well–better, in fact, than my friend, who is still smarting…er, I mean, still in pain. Sorry.
I have a Honda Civic Hybrid.
I just got the class action papers the other day.
Took it for service a few weeks ago.
The Honda dealer wanted to sell me a new battery but it actually isn’t bad. Yet.
I can make it get 50 mpg. The car has 105,000 miles on it.
Even my kid can squeeze 40-45 mpg out, and always comes home with the battery well charged because her friends live up the hill. Down the hill completely charges the battery.
Of course keeping it well charged not put away dead is important.
Current tank was at 280 miles with just a hair less than half a tank last time I looked.
I was not that thrilled with the computer update they did, but it didn’t screw it up badly.
I might worry about the battery more if we lived in mountainous country, but I drove it three hard highway w/ passengers, trips last week and it was fine.
When the time comes, we will just get a new battery or new cells from a third party dealer.
I worry more about the CVT. That needed service, and they said it needs plugs which are very fancy and there are eight of them.
Fact is though, at 105k you have to get out of the car to hear if it is running.
It is a very nice little car.
You have to actually play the Hybrid car and pay some attention to it.
According to the Class action papers, there IS something extra wrong with the ’06’s
England calling.
My L registered (August 1993) Renault 19 Diesel regularly gave me over 45 miles per gallon no matter how or where I drove it. It started every time in last winter’s freeze and it died after being rear-ended at 4:30pm on 31st December 2010 at a stop light by a drunk driver. My car had over 140,000 miles on it and all I ever did was change the tyres, oil, oil filter and windscreen wipers. It never had anything else done to it.
Cheapest car to run that I’ve ever owned.
That’s December 2011, BTW.
I still sign my cheques with the wrong date!
Oh, excreta!
I WAS right the first time!
Douglas DC says:
January 5, 2012 at 3:41 pm
“This is eventually going to kill the hybrid. For efficency-eurodeisel,,,,”
Well, some people here have praised the efficiency of their VW’s and I drive one as well. While VW is famous for their thrifty Diesels, they also build Hybrids now, and by now I haven’t heard that they ran into the same kind of trouble as Honda. Maybe Honda just didn’t have such a smart battery management system, that can already make all the difference.
You DO get a lot of efficiency from a hybrid. And why not combine a Turbodiesel with a Hybrid, creating an efficiency double-whopper?
Oh. VW already had that idea. The Up! Diesel Hybrid, –
2.4 l/100km = 98.0060764 miles per gallon
http://www.focus.de/auto/neuheiten/studie/vw-up-lite-der-windschluepfige-diesel-hybrid_did_26249.html
Every idea the environmentalist wackos force on us is a failure. Mercury-filled lightbulbs, toilets that don’t flush much water, hybrid cars, solar and wind power, killing oil pipelines and drilling, recycling – everything. It’s all crap and it all winds up failing ultimately and costing us a fortune in the long run.
I am fascinated by Sal Minella’s comment that lithium in the landfill poisons folks. How does that happen, exactly? In what way is lithium poisonous? I don’t find any lithium compounds listed as toxins. There is a lot of the stuff around, in sea water and what not, and people take lithium carbonate for manic depression, but they were depressed before they took the lithium compound, not after. What’s with this?
One solution is to force dealers to post a warning that the mileage the EPA says the car can expect may be unreasonable and false.
Don’t you like disclaimers?
In some states and some courts, a limited small claims action means you can’t take an attorney.
This case isn’t as simple as presented. The Honda Civic hybrids from 2006 onward have a known problem with their “Integrated Motor Assist” that leads to premature aging of the batteries, poor mileage and erratic performance. There’s a vast community of ticked-off owners out there who share their gripes on the web. These cars give you worse mileage than the pre-2006 Civic hybrids, so a lot of folks who upgraded their Civic in recent years witnessed a very noticeable decline in mileage. Honda has so far only responded by issuing a software patch that makes mileage worse but prolongs he life of the batteries. They refuse to issue a recall because he problem is not safety related.
So this is really a quality issue and not a story about forcing car-makers to be more honest about mileage claims.
jorgekafkazar says:
January 5, 2012 at 4:07 pm
“A friend recently bought a “Smart” Car, a vehicle that I shudder to look at. Well, someone plowed into the back of it with a piece of Detroit iron two weeks ago. ”
I nearly rear-ended a Smart a few years back – he couldn’t decide whether to take an exit or not so he just stopped, and these tiny cars stop on a dime. Very dangerous to be behind one.
“You DO get a lot of efficiency from a hybrid. And why not combine a Turbodiesel with a Hybrid, creating an efficiency double-whopper?”
The reason why the deso / hybrid wasn’t manufactured earlier was because of the vibration caused by starting a diesel motor. The “start / stop” funcitonality when switching from ICE to batt’s was too noticeable wehn mated to a diesel to be deemed “ready for prime time”. I guessed the NVH issued may have been solved.
Reasons why US cars get less MPG then those sold in other parts of the world.
-Difference in gallon measurement.
-EPA regulated fuel. Right from the get go there is up to10% inert material(legally) that you get no energy from at all. Toss in ethanol and you are talking some serious differences in MPG.
-EPA regulated emissions choking off the motor.
-NTSB regulated saftey standards. Saftey=weight which impacts mileage. Even though a car has the same name on it doesn’t mean it’s made the same from country to country (even state to state here in the US but that is emissions, not saftey).
The EPA has been killing diesel powered vehicles in recent years. When I bought mine diesel was cheaper then regular unleaded gas (87 octane) and now is more expensive then supreme (92 octane). All the EPA mandated fuel blend standards has driven costs up significantly and dropped mileage. My own diesel has dropped 1mpg which is significant since I get 15-17mpg in all around driving. I see the advertised EPA ratin of the VW TDI has dropped ~5mpg during this EPA driven crusade.
I got 35 mpg on a 1992 Ford Crown Vic with a big V8 that I owned till two years ago when I traded it in on a cash for clunkers deal. After 18 years it still didn’t burn oil and it still got 35 mpg on the highway at the speed limit. Only problem with it was the electronic governor that shut the engine off at 1?0 km per hour …. Great car. But for the paint failing (known problem) I would probably still be driving it.
JEM says:
January 5, 2012 at 11:54 am
Henry Chance – no, emission controls don’t account for the difference. Modern engine controls are enormously more efficient than old carburetors.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have a 1990 Ford F250 fuel injected V8 truck. Pulling the pollution gear off increased the fuel mileage from 15 mpg to 20 mpg and I still use it for ploughing snow. Not bad for a 22 year old gasoline hog.
My son has an old diesel Jetta and he gets about 60 miles per imperial gallon on the highway (which is about the same as others on this forum get – converted from US to Imperial ~20% difference in gallons).
nc said
nc, I never gave one thought to a Prius. I laughed at them like everyone else. However, pumping $600+/mo in gas in her Dodge Dakota (very good truck) was getting old, not to mention frequent tires and brakes replacement. All that needs to be added to maintenance costs. Sorry to say, but every American made 4 cyl failed under mail delivery rigor. The Honda CRV worked quite well, but still not a true 4×4 so deep snow made it difficult.
A major problem with finding a mail route vehicle is most carriers still like LH drive, at least that’s what my wife tells me. Nearly every vehicle nowadays has a console that won’t allow the driver to cross over from the passenger side to the brake/gas pedals. I looked around for getting a new vehicle, checked all the hybrids out; virtually every one had the console shift.
On happenstance I found the PriusChat forum and was shocked that someone was using a Prius. At first I thought it was a joke. I had the same worries about battery life etc, but found out the battery is the least of worries on the Toyota Prius. In fact, there are quite a few folks using the Prius for mail delivery. They recommended getting the oldest highest mileage Prius I could find and not worry about the battery. My wife ended up buying a 2008 model with low mileage which allows removal of the console giving full access across the seats. 2009 and up…..completely filled up with non-removable console.
All the stereotypes about the Prius turned out to be totally wrong. As for the million mile Corrolla, well, even a blind squirrel will eventually find a nut. I owned a 1989 Corrolla, the last carburetor version made; great car. The best mileage car I ever owned was a 1984 Dodge Colt with the economy stick- 45-50 mpg was common. Something changed after that model year as I notice even today the so-called “sub compacts” get crappy mileage compared to the 25 year+ old models.
Auto manufacturers are missing out on a huge market; 400,000 rural mail carriers. It’s getting near impossible to find one that suits the purpose because of the console. Even trucks are doing away with the column shifts…..personally I detest console shifters in a truck.
Anyway, it would hard pressed to convince me hybrids are a waste of money now that I own one and see the fuel bills be cut by 3-4x, at least for what my wife uses it for.
EPA ratings have nothing to do with this case. It is the degradation of the fuel economy over time, not its variation from EPA ratings that is at issue. Gasoline powered vehicles degrade very little over time. Battery powered vehicles degrade all the time, for several reasons. I live in hilly country, and my neighbor, who got her Nissan Leaf in October was real happy about it, until winter arrived. Now she can no longer get up the hill to her house on cold evenings after work. The dealer never told her that this would happen, but now he says he did warn her. Battery powered cars are not for cold weather of hilly areas, yet where I live, so many people drive these crap hybrids and Smarts, it is lucky for them that they never traded in the big Lexus or Mercedes that had when they decided to make their statement about how superior they are to neanderthals like me who drive big SUVs, yet who the hell else will get them out of the snow when they are blocking the road? I have to climb that same hill every day.
Lighter materials that give the same safety or better than existing.
Engines that have much better power to weight ratio (angellabsllc.com).
Drivers who don’t come off the line like a scalded jackrabbit.
That will outdo any battery for now. The whole problem of storing electricity or hydrogen inexpensively, in quantity and in a small space has not been solved yet. There is very interesting work being done but nothing in mass production yet.
mizimi says:
January 5, 2012 at 10:25 am
Only makes sense when you understand she is a lawyer. Did she sue when her gas only car stopped giving her 40mpg as the engine wore and went out of spec? No, I guess not. But Honda would have claimed various mileages in the advert for that car. So where is the difference? Anybody with a modicum of common sense understands mileage claims assume the vehicle is in 100% condition..and yes, even batteries have a working life which means as they age they become less efficient. But hey, if you can make a buck or two out of it……………….
Just scanning so don’t know if this has already been addressed, but your an (self snip).
I have a 1995 Ford Escort (stop laughing), a “gas only car,” that still gets over 30 mpg, even on the 10% ethanol gas they sell these days. And the car has over 170,000 miles and is blowing smoke out the the tailpipe. Whatever the gas mileage was rated at 16+ years ago, it’s still doing pretty well.
“Anybody with a modicum of common sense” understands that, with the price they charge and the hype for these kinds of cars, the new electric/hybrid cars should not be breaking down as quickly or performing as badly as they are. They are over-hyped and over-advertised, and you would be sued if you falsely advertised a product like this. I hope she wins.
Hmmm… My 2003 Civic Hybrid’s mileage has dropped, too – but only from ~49 to ~45 over 8 years and 100,000 miles. Something doesn’t smell right. Lawyer, huh?
Well my Subaru Legacy (170 HP), is rated at 25 around town, and 31 on the hiway, or thereabouts.
If I start up on city streets/expressways at say 25 to 45 mph, It will sit at 15 to 18 MPG (it has a gauge). But once at speed, if I take my foot off the gas, it shifts all the way to top gear ratio, and RPMs drop to around 12-15 hundred, and the MPG shoots up to 45-50 mpg, and stays there, when I put by foot back on the pedal.
If I get on Hiway 280 (rolley hilley), and drive from Cupertino to San Francisco, which is 40-45 miles or so, I can average better than 45 mpg at 61 mph cruise controlled for the trip; sometimes on the downhills, it pegs the meter at 99.9 mpg.
It’s the traffic lights and cutting in and out drivers, who put my overall average mpg down to 27.1 mpg.
Electric/hybrid cars are still a niche item. The Prius is a popular cab in Vegas, but most of them
are rattle traps. The mail carrier probably puts up with the ride because he also gets paid by the mile.
If someone wants to buy a hybrid car that most likely will cost more to operate per mile unless used hard during the early part of it’s life, so be it, it’s still a fee country for the moment. Just don’t
subsidize it with public money and don’t kid yourself that you’re saving the planet. The latter act puts you in the dupe category. This Civic hybrid story is sad and demonstrates how building a concept based on the false premise of climate change and CO2 reduction has hurt both Honda (a company that normally provides a good and useful product) and it’s customers.
I used to work for Honda in Swindon, England. This will be bad PR for them indeed. I am also pretty sure Honda will have a disclaimer on any sales brouchure about milage and in the UK at least, all MPG figures are quoted at a constant motorway/highway speed of 56MPH. But as has been stated, the EPA made the claims, not Honda. This could get inteersting.
Mike Wryley says:
January 5, 2012 at 9:07 pm
“Electric/hybrid cars are still a niche item. The Prius is a popular cab in Vegas, but most of them
are rattle traps. The mail carrier probably puts up with the ride because he also gets paid by the mile…………. how building a concept based on the false premise of climate change and CO2 reduction has hurt both Honda ………..and it’s customers.”
Electric/Hybrid or whatever, It’s not because of climate change and CO2, making options for the future of energy sources has been the main reason so far. Do you want to drive your fossil based fuels until the oil is no longer within your reach then stop and park it in your parking or aside of the roads and streets?
In my view, she is probably a lead-foot driver. On the web site Fuelly there are 66 civic hybrids with user reported average US mpg ranging from 22 to 60 with a median of around 45. Like the window sticker says, Your Mileage May Vary.
I own a 2000 Honda Insight that currently has 84000 miles on it. This last labor day weekend took a road trip that covered 840 miles at an average of 75.9 mpg (91 mpg for you UK folks). I wasn’t hypermiling it either, average speed for the whole trip was 56 mph. Usual cruise speed between 60-65 mph. I live in Alaska and the majority of the roads are two lane outside the population centers.
This car has always made me wonder what is wrong with all other vehicles. Why can’t my Nissan Frontier get 35 mpg? or my Mustang 40 mpg? The reason I own the Insight is not to save the world, I just find it a fascinating piece of automotive technology.
Jim Baker
Anchorage Alaska
She said that the battery went dead. Whatever the reason, the battery could have been damaged by the deep discharge. Battery life varies widely due to use patterns, ambient temperature and charge rates. Most batteries are shot after 5 years anyway. Epa mileage is based on a standard test cycle and may have no relation to actual driving. I get more on long highway drives and less other times.
Enviro EV nuts assume that batteries never deteriorate. Actually they start aging the day they are made. This lady is just a nitwit. That’s why she bought a hybrid.
1st
James ibbotson says:
January 5, 2012 at 2:41 pm
You lead booted barsteward! They are rather fun though aren’t they? Especially if you press & hold the DTC button until what we call the death triangle comes on!
Fuel economy…
Can only speak for the cars I’ve driven.
Diesels, eg BMW 635, (quite a large car,) do pretty well against say a Pious! (Not driven any other hybrid.)
In fact, the Pious is pretty crap on a long run. No performance either.
DaveE.
Patrick Davis says:
January 5, 2012 at 9:21 pm
UK figures are now.
Motorway, urban & combined cycle.
How they figure the combined cycle I have yet to fathom.
DaveE.
Has nobody heard of double jeopardy?
If this case wins, even in small claims court, there is a reasonable chance no other case can be brought. (Unless double jeopardy applies only to criminal cases.)
Oh… and many modern cars are unreliable. The reason: lots more electronics. Engine control computers, sensors, and other junk all make cars that run really nicely. When they run. When they stop it costs an arm and a leg to fix them.
Ye Olde Notice & Disclaimer:
When guys start gassing about their cars, it’s very much like when they start yammering about sex.
The veracity level is almost as high too 😉 🙂
Phil R says:
January 5, 2012 at 8:01 pm
mizimi says:
January 5, 2012 at 10:25 am
“Only makes sense when you understand she is a lawyer.”
Phil R….Astute!
Look at those who have been sitting and waiting for such a propaganda!
Yes indeed, I’ll second that.
I’ve just bought a Skoda Octavia Greenline, which is a diesel and which will do an average of 74MPG (UK gallons). The Octavia is a family saloon similar to the Ford Mondeo or VW Passat – and this mileage outdoes any of the hybrids on the market here in the UK. It also has 20,000 mile service intervals.
With fuel at £1.40 per liter here in the UK, cars like the Octavia make a lot of sense.
Someone said above : “Anybody with a modicum of common sense understands mileage claims assume the vehicle is in 100% condition..and yes, even batteries have a working life which means as they age they become less efficient. ”
Others are calling her a nitwit etc etc. implying that this is somehow her own fault.
But if anyone supplied me with anything at all which suffered a 40% reduction in performance (mpg, lbs of washing in the tub, range of the cell phone, copies per fill for the printer, ….. WHATEVER) I wouldn’t just want them to take it back, I would want compensation for the misrepresentations as to performance at the time of sale. If a 40% reduction in performance is to be expected after only a year it should absolutely be advised to the customer, in which case I at least, would not buy it in the first place (and I suspect that most others would not either, and that is why the seller failed to make the information available).
This is not a case of lawyer, or whoever getting what she deserved, or an issue of saving the world, or making the EPA look good, silly or whatever…… this is a simple case of misrepresentation by a seller. No more, no less!
Apparently, many of you would happily connive at that misrepresentation on the basis that the buyer is a particular sort of person! Come off it! Genius or idiot, we are all entitled to be provided with accurate and full information about the purchases we make from a seller. End of story.
Kohl P
I have just come home from a trip of more than 400km (one way) in our Ford Falcon. OK it is not a hybrid car, but the situation with MPG is very relevant. Whilst on our trip we actually discussed this case because it has been highlighted here in Australia.
These are my observations that relate not to the hybrid but to my own experience with various cars. The Ford is great because it has an onboard computer that calculates driving range. I check this a lot and feel confident that I understand the process.
First of all, using a mix of ethanol/petrol (gas) does not increase the mpg. I have found from experience driving on the open road that we got less range, therefore straight unleaded petrol is best. Second, the catalyctic converter is a must when using unleaded petrol in a modern car. Third, country driving and city driving get different results. There is more stopping and starting with city driving, and each time the brake is touched the mpg average goes down. This is something that I have checked on a regular basis. It is also something observed during our trip. The average was high during the open road part of the trip, but it dropped rapidly as soon as we hit the “city” and slower driving.
Third, lowered speed limits in built up areas cause a car to get worse fuel mileage, which would mean that the Honda would suffer if this is where the woman has been driving. Again, I have observed exactly what happens and how the av mpg is affected.
Fourth, did the woman use the battery more often, or did she mostly use the gas side of the car? If she was using electric then mpg should go up!! However, if she neglected to do the switch then her mpg would be affected, especially in city driving!!
The other thing pointed out by the news people over here is that the method of testing is out of touch with reality. Was that figure based upon open road or city conditions? There is a lot of variance.
Walter says:
January 5, 2012 at 11:32 pm
Say what?
The way you’re reading double jeopardy, Someone who murders 5 people, once convicted of the 1st murder cannot be tried for the other 4!
DaveE.
Even a 3 series BMW will deliver beter than a pious or many other hybrids, we have one on our fleet as a courtesy car it regulalry delivers 54-60 mpg
We also have Some Seats and a Golf Blue Motion again these cars are delivering a regular 54-56 MPG with the Golf being the most effecient and best return on that was 64 mpg over a week with a customer.
Rumour has it the new BMW 3 series diesels wil be turning in 70MPG+ when loosened up
Why anyone would buy these cars has always been something of a puzzle to me, they appear to be neither “greener” nor more “effecient” than alternative regular cars these days?
I have a 2003 Renault Clio 1.5 DCi Diesel. It returns 60MPG (UK Gallons) and only costs 30 pounds per year in road tax. It’s done 102,000 miles, never let me down and in total has only cost about 3000 pounds in servicing/repair/maintenance costs over the past 8 years.
Under normal driving conditions, the battery should last the life of the hybrid vehicle.
That gives you a hint.
Not only do the batteries deteriorate over the life of the vehicle, the electric motors, the conversion circuitry and the petrol driven engine also deteriorates.
Experience by cab owners who have used hybrids has shown it’s false economy to replace a worn battery. As the battery wears down the small engine gets more and more use. The electric motors deteriorate and use up more battery power.
Non government buyers of hybrid vehicles can be described as “niche” buyers. No amount of argument or logic will convince them of the blind faith of belief in the correctness of these vehicles.
The Japanese created this “Niche” market for hybrids. The European manufacturers are following suit even though they don’t believe in the future of the hybrid. – Marketing trumps substance.
Let us return to 1960, I drove a renault R8 the quitest and most comfortable drive I have ever owned. Four wheel independent radial tuned suspension, Four wheel floating caliper disc brakes with single ply steel radial tyres. The most aerodynamic wind tunnel tested car on the road at the time. The most comfortable and quitest ride short of a RR yet cheap as chips, 50 to 60 MPG in Alpine trim 150 MPH. My question WTF, has happened since 1960 for us to have regressed so far.
“One solution is to force dealers to post a warning that the mileage the EPA says the car can expect may be unreasonable and false.”
We don’t care who said what, but that the advertising the company uses is truthful about facts they claim and to sell us fit for purpose goods that function as described.
Otherwise what is to stop the car dealer from pulling this kind of trick: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/05/09/toy-yoda.htm or perhaps delivering a kid’s toy model of what you thought you’ve bought?
Hybrid vs ICE – Top Gear style:
No gas only vehicle manufactured since the late 80’s would experience anything like at 40% drop in MPG until it had become mechanically unsound. In this case, it’s the entire concept of a hybrid that is unsound. She’s completely right and I hope she wins and gets the maximum settlement. If she weren’t essentially correct, why is there a large class action suit going forward? There are a lot of aggrieved Honda hybrid owners.
Having said that, the way you drive can have a dramatic impact on MPG. My ’90 Kawasaki ZX-9R get just over 50mpg in street riding. That’s blowing by most traffic too. Sustained freeway speeds north of 80mph.
That same bike at a track day at a race track gets about 7.5mpg.
“Fourth, did the woman use the battery more often, or did she mostly use the gas side of the car? If she was using electric then mpg should go up!! However, if she neglected to do the switch then her mpg would be affected, especially in city driving!!”
Hondas do not have a switch.
It is all down to how you drive.
Lead foot runs more electric motor. There are handy meters that show how much electric power you are using and how much charge you are getting and current milage and range.
The meters are intended to help you stop wasting gas taking off like a jackrabbit, and optimize your charges by stopping smoothly and not just jamming the brakes at a light.
And it works.
The 2010 Insght that my wife drives works perfect;y. 40-45 around town 50-60 on the highway.
It has a colored light system that cues you when you are wasting gas,
If you don’t mind driving very gently, you can get 60mpg in town easily.
If this lady NEVER got better than 40, even new, it is a good bet that either the battery was never right, or that she never even tried to drive it for milage. In this case probably both.
Every new car has a EPA sticker and EPA current test cycle at that time gave an estimate of 51 mpg HWY. City use of course is way lower. Driver habits, driving condition, use of A/C and many other variables will affect the real mpg. Prior to 2008 the EPA test cycle did not reflect the actual driving conditions of most users, and max 55 mph. In 2008 the EPA test procedures got changed and EPA estimates on all vehicles got changed to a lower number. Check at Fuelly.com to see your vehicles actual fuel efficiency among owners.
Strange she complained after 5 years of ownership. If she wins, then can we expect a rush of law suits in small claims court from owners of all makes of cars. Check out at Fuelly.com and see for yourself how owners of other brands are experiencing less than EPA mpg. Should car makers sue EPA for using wrong test methods?
This is a perfect use of the justice system as far as I’m concerned. They should outlaw class actions because the consumers rarely get compensated, and the lawyers nearly always make out like bandits….thereby encouraging even more of the same. I hope this woman’s action leads to much more of the same. If it bankrupts the companies that put out shoddy products, so much the better.
Take roofing. Certainteed made crap shingles for years (at least for northern climates) and lost a huge class action suit. Now I have to spend over 10 grand to replace a roof that should have lasted another 20 years or better with just average shingles. And I get a check for a little over $1,000 as compensation. Any small claims court judge would be easily convinced by pictures of the shingles on many of the houses around the Midwest that the homeowners had been sold a shoddy product, so these would be open and shut cases in small claims, if the amounts allowed were sufficient.
The problem in many states is that the small claims limit is relatively low, I believe, though maybe this is changing. I suspect the law industry would love to keep it low. Arghh…I now see that Wisconsin has a $5,000 limit and I’ve already signed away my rights to sue…see how that works? Wish I’d read this article a few months ago.
I am not a lawyer – but I believe she should lose as she is suing the wrong party. Advertizing is enticement, and requires somewhat of a suspension of disbelief. The EPA created the rating, and mandated by regulation how and where it will be used. Pity the judge can’t hold the EPA accountable for its unintended consequences – that gangreenous outfit needs to be cut down to knee-high size!
Dr. Dave I think you’re painting with too broad of a brush.
My reason for buying a Camry hybrid was because I needed a family sized car and most of my driving is short distance with a lot of stop and go traffic – a situation where a hybrid gets better mileage with all things being equal. With gas prices going through the roof, I felt the savings would add up in time and they have.
I got between 37 and 40 MPG when it was new. I still get between 37 and 40 at five years out. I haven’t noticed any degradation in mileage, distance the car will travel on battery only, or performance. The vehicle has seen no repairs beyond oil changes. My brakes have seen only about 20-25% wear thanks to the regeneration system. It’s not unusual to get 200,000+ miles out of the main battery before needing to replace it. The cost to replace it with a new battery is around $2,500 and dropping (it was around $5,000 back when the car was new). A tested used battery (yes, they’re available) can be had for < $1,000.
But lets switch from focusing on the battery and have a look at the bigger picture. I also own a Land Rover. Here's some real stats (both over a five year period):
Land Rover:
Two brake jobs: ~$2,000
Replace faulty CDL: ~$4,000
Repair oil leak: ~$1,200.00
Regular oil changes: ~$900.00
Annual smog check: ~$30.00
Annual registration: ~$500.00
—————–
Total: ~$8,630
Camry Hybrid:
Repairs: $0.00
Brake jobs: $0.00
Regular oil changes: ~$600.00
Annual smog check: $0.00
Annual registration: ~$300.00
—————–
Total: ~$900.00
I could replace the battery twice with a new battery in the hybrid and still have a car that’s less expensive to maintain than my Land Rover. When it comes to gas mileage and the price of gas, I’m even farther ahead. Call me a sucker but I would buy another Camry hybrid again.
stumpy says:
January 5, 2012 at 11:40 am
“So as my petrol engine slowly looses performance over the years and starts to use more fuel I can sue the manufacturer for producing something that doesnt work perfectly forever? Sweet! Lets all go sue car manufacturers for something that would obviously happen”
Stumpy,
My small1991 Chev S10 truck with a 2.8l engine gets the same mileage now, with 240,000 miles on it, as it did when ‘new’. I never ‘babied it’ and I get 18 mpg city and 23 mpg highway. It received only the standard maintenance items of regular oil changes, air filters, and an occasional tune up (plugs, rotor, and rotor cap). It also required a new battery every 5 years! My folks little 1978 Dodge Omni got 38 mpg highway right up until we sold it, with 185,000 miles and a leaking head gasket. A quick survey of my siblings and friends provided very similar experiences and data.
As a perhaps interesting sidebar, a recent rental of a 2011 Chev Impala with a 3.5l V6 yielded an average mileage of 31.6 mpg over 2 full tanks of gasoline in mixed highway and city driving. The 17 gallon (US) fuel tank provided a real range of more than 500 miles. With 215 hp available, I had no qualms about passing at will.
The assertions made by you, mizimi, and similar do not reflect real world experience for gasoline powered vehicles, either modern or ‘old’.
HankH tells us that as well as a hybrid he also own a Land Rover. He gives some stats over a 5 year period.
Land Rover:
Two brake jobs: ~$2,000
Replace faulty CDL: ~$4,000
Repair oil leak: ~$1,200.00
Regular oil changes: ~$900.00
Annual smog check: ~$30.00
Annual registration: ~$500.00
—————–
Total: ~$8,630
I’m not sure what that is supposed to show except ‘That’s a landrover for ya!’ and ‘Ya’d have to pay me….’
Kohl P
Honda has a history on gas mileage issues. In 2007 Honda settled a class-action type lawsuit over odometer readings from bad odometers installed in new cars and suv’s which proved to be too high, thus overstating gas mileage. At that time, Honda gave owners an increased warrantee on mileage to reflect bad odometers installed in their cars. I received one of these increased mileage warrantees for a Pilot which never got over 18 mpg, even though the EPA sticker mileage ranged from 18 to 25 mpg. Pathetic sales misrepresentation by Honda salesman who stated that the 25 mpg rating was actually achievable. Later I found out that wasn’t true. The actual tested mileage (by the dealer) never exceeded 18 mpg.
Basically small-claims tribunals do what other courts should be doing but don’t- focus on the all facts not the legal nonsense.
Yes, that is a Land Rover for ya – one of the best utility vehicles I’ve ever owned. I own it because I do research in locations where you wouldn’t dare take a car or most SUV’s for that matter. I purchased a new GMC K2500 (4×4) prior to the Land Rover. It broke down often and it was far more expensive to maintain out of warranty than the Land Rover. I purchased a new Chevy Lumina before the Camry. The Lumina also cost far more in repairs out of warranty than the Land Rover (perhaps it would have been a better choice to make my point).
So you’re missing the point. Every vehicle has a back end cost of ownership and that’s what needs to be considered when purchasing or criticizing a vehicle. The Camry hybrid has one of the highest Consumer Reports rating of 93. After owning one for five years I’ve found the back end cost of ownership to be exceptional as contrasted to my other conventional vehicle. The great around-town gas mileage for a full sized family car is icing on the cake.
I looked at the Honda Civic hybrid too and steered way clear of it. The Civic hybrid has one of the lowest Consumer Reports rating at 62 (60 being the lowest). I don’t doubt people are unhappy with the vehicle for many reasons, possibly poor hybrid technology being one of them. But to take a story on a hybrid that is obviously a lemon and make the case that all hybrids have failed batteries and are a waste of money doesn’t follow in my case.
Acckkii,
Sorry, but manufacturing margins on hybrid cars are slim to none, auto companies build them for PR purposes to enhance their green cache, and not as a hedge against oil supplies. But do what ever trips your trigger, just let the market decide. And since there is growing evidence that oil may actually not have plant origins, the Chevy Volt is more of a fossil fuel car than my F350 diesel, if it is plugged into a coal fired grid.
Mike Wryley says:
January 6, 2012 at 9:04 pm
“Acckkii,
Sorry, but manufacturing margins on hybrid cars are slim to none, auto companies build them for PR purposes to enhance their green cache, and not as a hedge against oil supplies. But do what ever trips your trigger, just let the market decide. And since there is growing evidence that oil may actually not have plant origins, the Chevy Volt is more of a fossil fuel car than my F350 diesel, if it is plugged into a coal fired grid.”
Mike,
I am quite positive about “LET the MARKET DECIDE” as you said. We would be sorry for those manufacturers who cannot sell their products and fail, because the markets do not like their products. But we cannot say to them “do not make anything because we possibly would not like it”. You remember Toyota crisis about one of its models, it was not Hybrid, and the others not necessary to remind you, and even space shuttle. This is on their own . When a market doesn’t absorb a thing, so why should we be sorry for that? Market is market, like the sun, like the moon.
And about purposes; Honda was thinking GREEN on hybrid as it is understood, I was thinking about someone can dare and steps forward and try a substitute for oil, you were thinking about whatever XYZ, and …, our purposes would let us coming together but with different purposes. You say Honda this/that, I liked it for my short travels, you may like it for just going to work because there on your way to your office are always cheaper fuel stations …or…, and …. Here speaking about people to be united collectively on something would only happen when as a MARKET none of us have no reason to go on and support an idea, still with different purposes.
IPhone and for example Toshiba, Toshiba is not bad, but IPHone finally becomes a giant. Same as in a rally, at the START line, the rally begins from the time (0), the winner is the one when in a dynamic environment and in practice can touch the end, faster.
So let the market decide, about what? first we should have something in hand to be able to compare. In the market of energy, if we have only OIL and oil and OiL and oIL, is this a market?
If you like it you buy it, in continuation, should we reach to this point that everybody should buy only Folks Wagon BEETLE ONLY. How is that?
Mike Wryley,
Toyota does make profits on their hybrids. Toyota has expanded their line of hybrids, maybe because Toyota is arguably the leader in this technology with a proven track record and consumers like their products. I would suggest you do a bit more research before coming to conclusions on why people buy them. In my wife’s case, she has been driving for the USPS for 15 years so we have a bit of experience knowing what has worked or not. For the Prius the math works on fuel/maintenance savings. Brakes, tires, fuel…..for her application it is a winner hands down.
We did not purchase the ‘used’ Prius to save the planet, just our bank account. There are very few vehicles that are mail carrier friendly these days, and although her quad cab Dakota has been very reliable, it also is very expensive to use. Mileage compensation does not even cover the cost of fuel these days.
Because the Prius regenerates the battery on deceleration, this also saves on brakes and tires. It also turns off the engine during the period decelerating to and at the mail box. This saves on engine wear and oil life as well.
There is no diesel or gas engine vehicle that could ever come close to 40 mpg stopping/accelerating 700 times a day, not to mention brakes and tires lasting as long. If an electric car comes along that can handle the rigors of rural mail delivery, my current prejudices against them would disappear like I had with the Prius.
BTW, my condolences on owning a Ford diesel 🙂
Since brake usage is the main “wastage”, the best way to max out MPG is too absolutely minimize the use of the brakes. How to go about doing that is the problem — but I try. Drafting behind 18-wheelers (or any car) helps too — but not too close.
A view from Europe… I drive a 2 litre 170bhp Skoda Diesel TDI (sort-of a VW Passat derivative).
I have had it for 17,000 miles so far, and I average 45mpg (UK gallons) to date. That covers european autoroute driving (90-100mph) down to in-town speeds.
Diesel isn’t the dirty beast of yesteryear, and I wouldn’t go back to petrol (gas) now, and won’t go hybrid until they *really* make sense!
Euro,
Good idea, you don’t have any reason to buy anything you don’t like it.
That is a way to say no to bad ideas.
Honda should be worry about your VOTE on its cars, not you.
You have better options why not.
This is the market Euro!
Good luck.
Dr. Dave says:
Yeah, maybe that’s why, according to Consumer Reports, we Prius owners had the highest level of
satisfaction (I believe as measured by the question: “Would you buy this car again?”) of any car, for at least a few years running, I think.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/cr_consumer_satisfaction.html
– Joel (very satisfied owner of a 2004 Prius)
…And, of course, for a long time, the biggest problem with the Prius was that Toyota couldn’t make them fast enough. I put down a deposit on mine just a few days after they were first available to test drive and there was already a waitlist of something like 15 people at the dealership, which meant about a 6 month wait.
Oh, and here is the full price negotiation on my Prius (which I bought from a car salesman who was a friend):
Joel: Jeff, since your a friend, you can get me a good deal on this, right?
Jeff: Joel, when there’s a 6-month waiting list on a car, the only negotiation from the list price is up.
Joel: List price sounds great!
DR and ACCKKII,
Easy there big shooters, you’re taking matters too personally, read my post more carefully. I stand by my statement on margins on hybrids.
And DR, 10-4 on the F 350, inferior in nearly very way to models 15 years more senior, thanks mostly to the EPA, but also Ford. Pulling a heavy machinery trailer with a little headwind results in a mileage only slightly better than an 80,0000 pound semi truck.
I am building a hybrid out of a 1973 Chevy Blazer. The engine will be a 383 ci Stroker that puts our 400 HP. I hope to get more than 10 MPG. This vehicle qualifies as a hybrid because it burns both gasoline and rubber. I wonder if I can get a tax credit.
What I would like to read is the text that Honda put out about the fuel consumption of it’s hybrid cars! I cannot believe that a company like Honda would not quote a varying mileage rate. Partially charging and discharging batteries leads to shorter battery life. As others have said in this post, everyone these days has experience of battery powered equipment. Hybrid cars are a joke because of the replacement battery costs and the hidden cost of the battery and technology when purchasing the new vehicle. It also costs fuel to charge the very heavy battery and to drive around with it. What is the trade in value of a 5 year old hybrid that needs a new battery? Quantify these costs on the miles per gallon over the life of the car and what you get is practically zero.
Can we all say together: “Kinetic energy reclamation vehicle” (or equally applicable as well: “potential energy reclamation vehicle”) ?
I’ve not seen that (those) word(s) used once throughout this thread; have any physicists posted to this thread? Has ‘kinetic energy’ (or potential energy, the energy one possesses at the top of a hill) as a term become deprecated (or something) in lieu of more fashionable terms and verbiage (glorious marketing prose perhaps)?
Get a grip ppl; one need only spend a day driving around *Vancouver and vicinity (e.g. Burnaby) to gain an appreciation for kinetic (and potential) energy recovery and what that means for ‘mileage’ (or ‘kilometer-age’ ) and saving on brake wear.
* There are other cites one can use to demonstrate this principle, but Vancouver is the only city I have had actual driving experience in with as many big hills as one encounters!
Joel, what does that mean (in bold above, the ‘your a friend’ part)? TIA.
.
Can I say it: “Confirmation bias”, or maybe more appropriately, conforming or ‘conformity bias’ as in “conformation bias”. Kinda like “grading your own homework” or “endorsing your own product” with knowing winks and nods all around.
Not that there is anything wrong with that in a free market environment …
.
“who needs a vehicle capable of 120 mph in traffic anyway”
That can be a very handy speed when passing a long truck on a two lane road..
Just for the record, but Bloomberg carried an article about hybrids.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-10/hybrids-in-u-s-losing-appeal-as-vehicles-run-on-less-gas-cars.html