A bit of a tiff developed over at Dr. Roger Pielke’s place over disagreements on the recent Texas heatwave being attributed to AGW or to ENSO. Bob Tisdale has something to say about that. Bob writes:
“In one email, Roger referred to my post about how poorly the new NCAR model hindcasts certain temperature indices, including ENSO, and Nelsen-Gammon’s decided to call my discussion about ENSO a red herring. Little does he know, I have observation-based data to back my claims.”

by Bob Tisdale
INTRODUCTION
I can see no basis for John Nielsen-Gammon’s attempt to attribute the record high temperatures in Texas to the hypothesis of Anthropogenic Global Warming. It appears that Nielsen-Gammon, like the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), relies on climate models to conclude that most of the rise in Surface Temperatures, globally and regionally, is caused by anthropogenic greenhouse gases. Unfortunately, their reliance on models to support that hypothesis is unfounded. The climate models show little to no skill at hindcasting past global and regional natural variations in Sea Surface Temperature, which, through coupled ocean-atmospheric processes, would have impacts on the temperature and drought in Texas. Since the climate models are incapable of replicating the natural modes of multiyear and multidecadal variability in Sea Surface Temperatures, the models are of little value as tools to determine if the warming could be attributed to manmade or natural causes, and they are of little value as tools to project future climate on global or regional bases.
And based on John Nielsen-Gammon’s comment about El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO), it appears he has overlooked the significant contribution ENSO can make to the multiyear and multidecadal variations in Global Sea Surface Temperature anomalies, which are so obvious during the satellite-era of Sea Surface Temperature observations.
BACKGROUND
Roger Pielke Sr., has published at his blog a series of emails between he and John Nielsen-Gammon. Roger’s post is dated November 10, 2011 and is titled John Nielsen-Gammon and I Continue Our Discission. Pielke Sr.’s initial post on this topic, dated November 4, 2011, is titled NBC Nightly News Regarding The Recent October Snowstorm And A Quote From John Nielsen-Gammon. In it, Pielke Sr. refers to Nielsen-Gammon’s September 9, 2011 blog post at the Houston Chronicle website Chron.com titled Texas Drought and Global Warming. All three posts are worth a read and provide the fuel for this post.
In one of the emails reproduced in his recent post, Roger Pielke Sr. provided Nielsen-Gammon with a link to my November 4, 2011 post An Initial Look At The Hindcasts Of The NCAR CCSM4 Coupled Climate Model. (Please read this post also, if you haven’t done so already. It shows how poorly the recent version of the NCAR CCSM coupled climate model replicates the surface temperatures from 1900 to 2005.) And Nielsen-Gammon’s response to it included:
“When driven by observed oceanic variability, the models do a great job simulating the atmospheric response. With the present drought, it’s not a matter of predicting the oceans and atmosphere. We know the present ocean temperature patterns, so we can estimate their contribution very well from both observations and models. The models’ difficulty in simulating the statistics of ENSO itself is a red herring.”
First, I have no basis from which to dispute Nielsen-Gammon’s opening sentence of, “When driven by observed oceanic variability, the models do a great job simulating the atmospheric response”. I have not investigated how well the models actually perform this function. But that’s neither here nor there. Why? Well, if the hindcast and projected representations of sea surface temperatures created by the models are not realistic, then the atmospheric response to the modeled oceanic variability would also fail to be realistic.
Second, Nielsen-Gammon wrote, “We know the present ocean temperature patterns, so we can estimate their contribution very well from both observations and models.” Nielsen-Gammon’s sentence does not state that the models provide a reasonable representation of ocean variability. So the fact that Nielsen-Gammon can estimate the oceanic contributions from observations AND from models is immaterial. The models are so far from reality, they have little value as climate hindcasting, or projection, or attribution tools, as stated previously.
Also, if you’re new to the subject of climate change, always keep in mind, when you read a climate change post like John Nielsen-Gammon’s, where the author constantly refers to models and model-based studies (in an attempt to add credibility to the post?), that it may not be the same climate model being referred to. Models have strengths and weaknesses, and climate scientists use different models for different studies. Depending on the coupled ocean-atmosphere process being studied, even if one organization’s model is used, model parameters may be set differently, they may be initialized differently, they may use different forcings, etc. So, while two model-based climate studies may use the same model, the model runs used to study the atmospheric response to the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, for example, may not incorporate the same forcings that are used to hindcast past climate and project future climate. In fact, there are model-based studies where observed Sea Surface Temperature data are used to force the climate models.
MORE EXAMPLES OF HOW POORLY CLIMATE MODELS DEPICT SEA SURFACE TEMPERATURE VARIATIONS
In addition to the post linked earlier in which I compared climate model outputs to observed data, I have also illustrated and discussed in detail the differences between the observed sea surface temperature anomalies and those hindcast/projected by climate models in the two posts titled:
Part 1 – Satellite-Era Sea Surface Temperature Versus IPCC Hindcast/Projections
AND:
Part 2 – Satellite-Era Sea Surface Temperature Versus IPCC Hindcast/Projections.
In those posts, I showed the very obvious differences between observed Sea Surface Temperature data and the model mean of the climate models used in the IPCC AR4 on global and ocean-basin bases, during the satellite-era of sea surface temperature measurement, 1982 to present. Here are a few examples:
Figure 1 is a time-series graph of the satellite-based observations of Global Sea Surface Temperatures versus the model mean of the hindcasts/projections made by the climate models used in the IPCC AR4. It shows how poorly the linear trend of the model mean compares to the trend for the measured Global Sea Surface Temperature anomalies. The models overestimate the warming by approximately 50%.
Figure 1
Figure 2 compares the linear trends for the observations and the model mean of the IPCC AR4 hindcasts/projections of Sea Surface Temperatures on a zonal mean basis. That is, it compares, for the period of January 1982 to February 2011, the modeled and observed linear trends, in 5-degree-latitude bands (80S-75S, then 75S-70S, etc., from pole to pole) from the Southern Ocean around Antarctica north through to the Arctic Ocean. It clearly shows that, in the models, the tropics warm faster than at higher latitudes, where in reality, that is clearly not the case. This implies that the models do an extremely poor job of simulating how the oceans distribute warm water from the tropics toward the poles. Extremely poor.
Figure 2
In those two posts, I not only illustrate the failings of the models on a Global basis, but I also illustrate them on an ocean-basin basis: North and South Pacific, East and West Pacific, North and South Atlantic and Indian Ocean. There are no subsets of the models that come close to the observations on a time-series basis and on a zonal-mean basis.
ON ATTRIBUTION
John Nielsen-Gammon notes in his article, after he changed attribution from “greenhouse gases” to “global warming”, that:
The IPCC has not estimated the total century-scale contribution to global warming from anthropogenic greenhouse gases, but has said that the warming since 1950 was probably mostly anthropogenic. So it seems reasonable to estimate that somewhere around two-thirds of the century-scale trend is due to anthropogenic greenhouse gas increases. That is to say, the summer temperatures would have been about
one or one and a half degrees coolerone half to one degree cooler without the increases in CO2 and other greenhouse gases. [John Nielsen-Gammon’s boldface and strikes.]
I cannot see how Nielsen-Gammon can make that claim when the IPCC’s model depictions of sea surface temperature variability over the past 30 years, which are coupled to global and regional variations in temperature and precipitation, differ so greatly from the observations. I truly cannot. The models are so different from observations that they have no value as an attribution tool. None whatsoever.
ON ENSO BEING A RED HERRING
The last sentence in the first quote from John Nielsen-Gammon above reads, “The models’ difficulty in simulating the statistics of ENSO itself is a red herring.” As a reference, Animation 1, is the El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO)-related comparison from my post that Roger Pielke Sr. linked for Nielsen-Gammon (An Initial Look At The Hindcasts Of The NCAR CCSM4 Coupled Climate Model).It shows how poorly the models hindcast the frequency, magnitude, and trend of ENSO events. In that post, I explained why the failure of climate models to reproduce the frequency and magnitude of ENSO events was important. Yet John Nielsen-Gammon characterized my illustrations and discussion as a “red herring”.
Animation 1
Here’s what I wrote, in part, about Animation 1:
The first thing that’s obviously different is that the frequency and magnitude of El Niño and La Niña events of the individual ensemble members do not come close to matching those observed in the instrument temperature record. Should they? Yes. During a given time period, it is the frequency and magnitude of ENSO events that determines how often and how much heat is released by the tropical Pacific into the atmosphere during El Niño events, how much Downward Shortwave Radiation (visible sunlight) is made available to warm “and recharge” the tropical Pacific during La Niña events, and how much heat is transported poleward in the atmosphere and oceans, some of it for secondary release from the oceans during some La Niña events. If the models do not provide a reasonable facsimile of the strength and frequency of El Niño and La Niña events during given epochs, the modelers have no means of reproducing the true causes of the multiyear/multidecade rises and falls of the surface temperature anomalies. The frequency and magnitude of El Niño and La Niña events contribute to the long-term rises and falls in global surface temperature.
My illustrations and discussions of ENSO in that post are not intended to divert anyone’s attention from the actual cause of the rise in global temperatures, which is what I assume John Nielsen-Gammon intended with the “red herring” remark. The frequency and magnitude of ENSO events are the very obvious cause of the rise in Sea Surface Temperatures during the satellite era. And that isn’t a far-fetched hypothesis; that is precisely the tale told by the sea surface temperature data itself. One simply has to divide the data into logical subsets to illustrate it, and it is so obvious once you know it exists that it is hard to believe that it continues to be overlooked by some members of the climate science community.
Recently I started including two illustrations of ENSO’s effect on Sea Surface Temperatures in each of my monthly Sea Surface Temperature anomaly updates. (Example post: October 2011 Sea Surface Temperature (SST) Anomaly Update) Refer to the graphs of the “volcano-adjusted” East Pacific Sea Surface Temperature anomalies and of the Sea Surface Temperature anomalies for the Rest of the World. I’ve reposted them here as Figures 3 and 4, respectively.
Note Regarding Volcano Adjustment: I described the method used to determine the volcano adjustment in the post Sea Surface Temperature Anomalies – East Pacific Versus The Rest Of The World, where I first illustrated these two datasets. The description reads:
To determine the scaling factor for the volcanic aerosol proxy, I used a linear regression software tool (Analyse-it for Excel) with global SST anomalies as the dependent variable and GISS Stratospheric Aerosol Optical Thickness data (ASCII data) as the independent variable. The scaling factor determined was 1.431. This equals a global SST anomaly impact of approximately 0.2 deg C for the 1991 Mount Pinatubo eruption.
Back to the discussion of the volcano-adjusted East Pacific and Rest-of-the-World data: Let’s discuss the East Pacific data first. As you’ll quickly note in Figure 3, based on the linear trend produced by EXCEL, there has been no rise in the Sea Surface anomalies for the volcano-adjusted East Pacific Ocean Sea Surface Temperature anomaly data, pole to pole, or the coordinates of 90S-90N, 180-80W, for about the past 30 years. The El Niño events and La Niña events dominate the year-to-year variations, as one would expect, but the overall trend is slightly negative. The East Pacific Ocean dataset represents about 33% of the surface area of the global oceans, and there hasn’t been a rise in sea surface temperature anomalies there for three decades.
Figure 3
Since we’ve already established that Global Sea Surface Temperature observations have risen during that period (Refer back to the observation-based data in Figure 1), that means the Rest-of-the-World data is responsible for the rise in global Sea Surface Temperature anomalies. But as you’ll note in Figure 4, the volcano-adjusted Sea Surface Temperature anomalies for the Rest of the World (90S-90N, 80W-180) rise in very clear steps, and that those rises are in response to the significant 1986/87/88 and 1997/98 El Niño/La Niña events. (It also appears as though the Sea Surface Temperature anomalies of this dataset are making another upward shift in response to the 2009/10 El Niño and 2010/11 La Niña.) And between those steps, the Rest-of-the World Sea Surface Temperature anomalies remain relatively flat. How flat will be illustrated shortly.
Figure 4
Note: The periods used for the average Rest-Of-The-World Sea Surface Temperature anomalies between the significant El Niño events of 1982/83, 1986/87/88, 1997/98, and 2009/10 are determined as follows. Using the NOAA Oceanic Nino Index(ONI) for the official months of those El Niño events, I shifted (lagged) those El Niño periods by six months to accommodate the lag between NINO3.4 SST anomalies and the response of the Rest-Of-The-World Sea Surface Temperature anomalies, then deleted the Rest-Of-The-World data that corresponds to those significant El Niño events. I then averaged the Rest-Of-The-World SST anomalies between those El Niño-related gaps.
I have in numerous posts discussed, illustrated, and animated the variables associated with the coupled ocean-atmosphere process of El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) that cause these apparent upward shifts in the Rest-of-the-World Sea Surface Temperature anomalies. My first posts on this were in January 2009. The most recent ones are from the July 2011: ENSO Indices Do Not Represent The Process Of ENSO Or Its Impact On Global Temperature and Supplement To “ENSO Indices Do Not Represent The Process Of ENSO Or Its Impact On Global Temperature”.Those two posts were written at an introductory level for those who aren’t familiar with the process of the El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO). In the initial post, I further illustrated the actual linear trends of the Rest-of-the-World data between the significant ENSO events, reproduced here as Figure 5. They are indeed flat.
Figure 5
And in the supplemental post, I further subdivided the Rest-of-the-World Sea Surface Temperature data into two more subsets. The first to be illustrated, Figure 6, covers the South Atlantic, Indian and West Pacific Oceans. As shown, Sea Surface Temperature anomalies decay between the significant ENSO events, just as one would expect.
Figure 6
And for the North Atlantic, Figure 7, which is impacted by another mode of natural variability called the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation (AMO), the linear trends between those significant ENSO events are slightly positive, also as one would expect. And the short-term ENSO-induced upward shifts are plainly visible in Figure 7 and are responsible for a significant portion of the rise in North Atlantic Sea Surface Temperature anomalies over the past 30 years.
Figure 7
CLOSING
This post clearly illustrates that John Nielsen-Gammon failed to consider that climate models prepared for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) AR4 have little to no basis in reality. When one considers the significant differences between the observed Sea Surface Temperature anomaly variations and those hindcast/projected by climate models, the models provide no support for his conclusion that most of the rise in Surface Temperatures, globally and regionally, was caused by anthropogenic greenhouse gases.
This post also clearly illustrated that “The models’ difficulty in simulating the statistics of ENSO itself is”…NOT…“a red herring.” The process of the El Niño-Southern Oscillation was responsible for most of the rise in global sea surface temperature anomalies over the past thirty years.
SOURCES
For the sources of data presented in this post, refer to the linked posts from which the graphs were borrowed.
ABOUT: Bob Tisdale – Climate Observations








Bob Tisdale says:
November 13, 2011 at 11:17 am
With respect, I need clarification of the above please Bob.
Outgoing Longwave does not because it’s outgoing. Did you mean Downwelling LR? If so I havent considered DLR at all in my request to you.
Yes DSR penetrates to about 100 metres, but barely 3% of the light gets down that far. Most of it is used up in the top 10 metres.
My thoughts, and the reason why I asked if you had graphed OLR and DSR together to get a comparison was as follows:-
Although DSR is strong, it is only active during daylight hours and even then it climbs from zero at dawn to a maximum around midday, then back to zero again at dusk.
OLR is constant 24/7. And if it is as strong as shown in my link to BoM (up to 270Wm2 during la Nina which is about 100Wm2 more than during El Nino) then there is a chance that more energy is leaving the ocean than is being replaced by DSR during La Nina.
Add to that a further loss of energy due to the stronger trade winds causing more evaporation.
During El Nino, cloud cover suppresses OLR and convection, retaining the heat in the ocean as well as the atmosphere until the tradies pick up again blowing away the clouds and the moisture laden warm air and cooling everything down.
Bob Tisdale says:
November 13, 2011 at 11:50 am
Bob is this the web page you’re thinking of?
“there is a chance that more energy is leaving the ocean than is being replaced by DSR during La Nina.
Add to that a further loss of energy due to the stronger trade winds causing more evaporation.
During El Nino, cloud cover suppresses OLR and convection, retaining the heat in the ocean as well as the atmosphere until the tradies pick up again blowing away the clouds and the moisture laden warm air and cooling everything down.”
In other words a complete reversal of the El Nino discharge / La Nina recharge scenario ?
If so, then clouds cause ENSO events by modulating the rate of energy loss from the oceans much like the Greenhouse effect on steroids ?
My doubt about that is that the clouds also reduce DSR into the water and energy reflected out is energy lost to the system forever.
Bob ?
Baa Humbug: And a topic I forgot to include in my earlier reply is evaporation. Most of the heat released during an El Nino event is through evaporation. Are you including it? If so, what dataset?
Baa Humbug says: “During El Nino, cloud cover suppresses OLR and convection, retaining the heat in the ocean as well as the atmosphere until the tradies pick up again blowing away the clouds and the moisture laden warm air and cooling everything down.”
During an El Nino event, the increased cloud cover is caused by the increased surface temperature and increased evaporation, the latter of which is the primary way the Tropical Pacific releases heat, is it not?
But increased cloud cover reduces evaporation by allowing humidity to rise under the cloud sheet due to suppression of convection.
I come back to the point that the region in question is not representative of the global response to ENSO events.
The fact that ENSO can change cloudiness levels outside the ENSO region itself is one of Bob’s best points for arguing that ENSO effects are not adequately represented in the models.
@Bob and Stephen
Thanks to both of you for the replies.
Bob I don’t have a dataset. I’m reading thrpugh the many links you provide to make sense of it all.
Yes evapo is the primary way the Tropical pacific releases heat. El Nino increases SSTs by what, anywhere from 0.5DegC to max 2.9DegC (I think was the max during the 98 EN). But EN is accompanied by suppressed tradies. Surely stronger tradies ( La Nina) facilitates more evapo. (my washing drys quicker during a breezy 20 Deg than a calm 25 Deg.)
But clouds don’t form over the central Pacific during La Nina because they get blown onto the coasts of PNG and OZ, hence the heavier rains there?
Stephen, no, I don’t think clouds cause ENSO events at all. I would have thought the Humboldt Current had more to do with ENSO formation.
And yes I am having trouble with the recharge/discharge scenario. I think the tropical oceans are always recharging. However when the permanent upwelling zone off the coast of Peru spreads wider to the south, there is then enough of a spatial coverage to kick off the trade winds which spreads the cooler waters in a westerly direction culminating in a La Nina with all it’s associated atmospheric changes.
Anyway, I should learn to read up more and gather my thoughts before asking people to give up their time to feed me with info.
First, I have no basis from which to dispute Nielsen-Gammon’s opening sentence of, “When driven by observed oceanic variability, the models do a great job simulating the atmospheric response”. I have not investigated how well the models actually perform this function. But that’s neither here nor there. Why? Well, if the hindcast and projected representations of sea surface temperatures created by the models are not realistic, then the atmospheric response to the modeled oceanic variability would also fail to be realistic
————-
A reasonable interpretation of this remark: “the models do a great job simulating the atmospheric response” is that the claim was tested against reality.
Bob simply denies it without out giving counter evidence and bases the denial on a logical fallacy.
Bob Tisdale says:
November 13, 2011 at 11:07 am
Yes Bob, did consider the difference between the two, although not had the chance to determine by analysis, which method confirms with satellite data is the best. During the previous encounter was and still concerned with using infilled data from coastal regions that hardly change between El Nino’s and La Nina’s. (ie no trend)
The problem between the two is still evident even after the 1970’s. After a period of frequent La Nina’s would expect the overall trend in temperatures to increase with higher frequency of El Nino’s.
This is shown quite clearly with ERSSTv3b.
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/6549/nino341970.png
Despite the increase in frequency of El Nino’s there is no trend in temperatures during this period, so it disagrees with observations from all other sources. (including your own)
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2676/nino34had1970.png
ONI uses ERSSTv3b Nino3.4 and is considered reliable, so what if ONI was to use HadSST Nino3.4? The flaws in this HadSST Nino3.4 would be represented well in ONI.
Bob Tisdale says:
November 13, 2011 at 11:20 am
http://isccp.giss.nasa.gov/products/onlineData.html
LazyTeenager says:
November 13, 2011 at 1:47 pm
The best ENSO models only focused on this mechanism and nothing else can’t predict longer than a year out. Yet you believe that this complicated model is made even better mixed in with many climate parameters to make a climate model?
http://iri.columbia.edu/climate/ENSO/currentinfo/SST_table.html#models
You must be joking.
Great article, thanks again Bob. The real show-stopper here is the flat global SST trends in between ENSO events. The potential significance of this is mind-blowing.
Has anyone thought about the significance of this? Lets assume for the sake of argument that this is a correct mathematical observation or statement, that globally, SSTs only decrease or increase at el Nino or La Nina events, not in between. And that climate shifts to higher or lower temperatures are mediated by these shifts only (a not unreasonable corollary – climate change is meaningless without SST change).
This implies that the ENSO is the sole mechanism of effecting global temperature / climate change. This is huge! Note that this is not the same as saying that the ENSO is the only cause of temperature change. But if one champions any other causes of climate change, such as CO2, solar changes, magnetic fields, cosmic rays, etc, then these agents themselves must be acting via the ENSO.
But how could they be acting via the ENSO?
This might be hard to figure out at first, the ENSO, although big, does not directly impact the whole earth. The Pacific ocean is about half of the world surface, the south Pacific thus a quarter of it. So how does the equatorial alternation of warm and cold surface anomalies so strongly dominate world climate?
As Philip Bradley points out, “The heat flow is from the oceans into the atmosphere. There is never any significant heat flow from the atmosphere to the oceans. All the atmosphere can do is impede heat loss from the oceans. It is not unreasonable that the oceans, holding as they do the vast majority of climate energy, should be the driver of climate heat.
Lets therefore assume for a moment – following from the assumed fact of SST stasis between ENSO events – that climate energy and heat trends do come from the ocean. This still does not make it obvious why the south Pacific ENSO should drive the planet’s heat. Except that is, unless ENSO is a marker of something global in extent.
That thing could be oceanic deep upwelling. At the heart of ENSO is, as we all know, the Bjerknes feedback between Peruvian coast upwelling and the equatorial trade winds. The conjecture I have made several times before is that the upwelling part of that feedback is linked to the global thermohaline circulation (THC). Maybe periods of ENSO upwelling are correlated with upwelling elsewhere, that global upwelling is thus pulsatile, perhaps from chaotic-nonlinear patterning. This is conjecture of course. (I could look for models of fluid chaotic mixing for possible analogies.)
OK lets fast-forward to my tentative hypothesis here:
1. Heat flows to the oceans originally from the sun,
2. The ocean releases this heat back to the atmosphere, but it does so with a spatiotemporal pattern that is determined by a dynamic and quasi-chaotic ocean circulation system (possibly an aspect of Stephen Wilde’s climate model). This patten could be subject long term to periodic forcing from solar, cosmic ray etc oscillations.
3. One feature of a chaotic system is a LIMIT CYCLE. This means that a chaotic / nonequilibrium pattern system, while potentially able to adopt an infinite number of possible states, in practice oscillates between a limited number of states which emerge from the system. This set of states is the limit cycle.
4. When an ENSO event moves the oceans globally to a higher or lower SST level, it means that the oceans thermal regime has moved from one position (node) to another in its limit cycle.
5. The ENSO correlates with global transitions to increased or decreased deep upwelling – upwelling means the downward movement of heat, or the slowing of heat release from the ocean. Thus upwelling globally is an inverse controller of release of heat by the oceans, or a brake to such release.
This is of course just a thought experiment, but it shows that the logical implication of Bob’s observation of SST stasis between ENSO events is a completely dominant role of the oceans in global climate, focused on ENSO.
(Which also means Bob Tisdale is king of all he surveys 🙂
Bob Tisdale says:
November 13, 2011 at 11:35 am
I agree with this concern too.
Bob Tisdale says:
November 13, 2011 at 11:53 am
Matt G says: “La Nina’s are not only responsible for global cloud level decline…”
Generally when people discuss cloud amount changes caused by ENSO, they’re discussing the equatorial or tropical Pacific.
True, but my point is the decline in global cloud levels was not just restricted to this area.
Theo Goodwin says:
November 13, 2011 at 10:50 am
You need physical hypotheses to describe the world.
There are many types of scientific models and most are not computer models. A scientific model consists of a series of linked hypotheses which attempt to answer a scientific question or describe an observation. You are clearly confused about the use of the term “model”. You have been in the climate game too long if you immediately think that the word “model” immediately implies “computer model”.
Theo Goodwin says:
November 13, 2011 at 11:16 am
This is very interesting speculation but it remains speculation. It contains no rigorously formulated physical hypotheses that have been reasonably well confirmed and that can be used to explain and predict the phenomena in question.
You seem to have overlooked the fact that I have long since passed this point of speculation (over two years ago) and have moved on to produced a scientific paper that provides a physical hypotheses that I believe will eventually be used to explain and predict the ENSO phenomenon.
Because of the limitations of peer-review, I can not discuss the set of hypotheses [based on observation] that I have come with to explain the ENSO phenomenon. All I can do is point you towards the original speculative idea(s) that (I believe) pointed me in the right direction.
Peer-review (in its wider sense) will compare my scientific model to the evidence and decide whether or not my set of linked hypotheses successfully explains the ENSO phenomenon.
Theo Goodwin,
A caveat: The scientific model that I am proposing only explains a part of the ENSO phenomenon. The El Nino/La Nina cycle is a complex interplay between the oceans (e.g. Solar/Lunar atmospheric tides, Earth rotation, currents up welling etc.), atmosphere (e.g. clouds, Solar/Lunar Atmospheric tides, Earth rotation, trade winds etc.) and radiative/non-radiative energy inputs and exchanges (e.g. evaporation, convection, DSR, OLR etc.).
The model that I propose describes how long term variations in solar/lunar atmospheric tides plays a crucial role in triggering the El nino/La Nina phenomenon on inter-annual to decadal time scales.
phlogiston.
I think you are on the right track and the amount of cold upwelling near Peru would indeed be relevant in my wider conceptual ‘model’.
One of the points I made elsewhere is that periods of increased or decreased solar input to the oceans could well introduce temperature discontinuities along the horizontal toute of the thermohaline circulation. When those discontinuities resurface some 1000 or so years later they would modify the balance between El Nino and La Nina (and atmospheric CO2 for that matter as per Murry Salby’s preliminary paper).
It only takes a tiny change in water temperatures to make a large change to air temperatures.
And, yes, I do agree that the ENSO phenomenon is at the heart of ALL observed climate changes simply because the thermal capacity of water covering 71% of Earth’s surface is so huge as compared to that of air.
However the source of ALL significant (excluding a little geothermal) energy in the oceans is solar input hence the significance of global cloudiness and albedo which I would aver is affected profoundly by surface air pressure distribution as manifested in the natural shifting of ALL the climate zones.
Hence my repeated attempts to understand how the ENSO details described exhaustively by Bob fit into the wider context both geographically and over time.
I know that Bob declines to go there because of the current data inadequacies and my persistence irritates him but he must recognise that if his posts relate to such an important ,indeed THE most important, component of climate change then many will find the wider application of his findings to be irresistible.
I think that the data collated by Bob is in fact the key to how it all fits together in a global context provided one uses it to see the way all the components of the climate system come together at the ocean surface in the ENSO regions.
For those reasons I would respectfully deny the suggestion that I am engaged in thread hijacking.
Bob’s work is fundamental and needs thorough and careful interpretation with a view to wider application and if he wishes to leave the wider application to others then that is fine by me.
LazyTeenager says: “A reasonable interpretation of this remark: ‘the models do a great job simulating the atmospheric response’ is that the claim was tested against reality.” And you continued, “Bob simply denies it without out giving counter evidence and bases the denial on a logical fallacy.”
I did not deny it. Please quote me chapter and verse where I denied it. Read precisely what he wrote and what my reply was.
Baa Humbug, just a general thought: When considering ENSO, sometimes it’s better to think in terms of absolute temperatures, etc., not anomalies.
You asked, “But clouds don’t form over the central Pacific during La Nina because they get blown onto the coasts of PNG and OZ, hence the heavier rains there?”
I don’t believe I’ve read a description that states that clouds don’t form over the central tropical Pacific during a La Nina. Cloud cover is reduced then. Also, the convection and cloud cover accompanies the warmer water as it migrates east during the El Niño and accompanies it back west during the La Niña.
You wrote, “I think the tropical oceans are always recharging.”
I agree. When the cloud cover wanders east during an El Niño, accompanying the warmer water, cloud cover over the West Pacific Warm Pool decreases significantly, allowing more DSR to reach the ocean. With the reversal of the trade winds in the western tropical Pacific and the increased flow of the Equatorial Countercurrent, this would help fuel the El Niño, and it should also help to recharge (precharge?) the PWP.
You wrote, “However when the permanent upwelling zone off the coast of Peru spreads wider to the south, there is then enough of a spatial coverage to kick off the trade winds which spreads the cooler waters in a westerly direction culminating in a La Nina with all it’s associated atmospheric changes.”
The sign of the SST anomalies off the Peruvian coast can appear to be a precursor of the sign of the ENSO event. Sometimes it happens that way. And there are times when just the opposite occurs. Also, I don’t believe the upwelling along the Peruvian coast is truly permanent. I can recall reading papers that describe the seasonal and ENSO-induced changes in upwelling there.
Stephen Wilde says: “If so, then clouds cause ENSO events by modulating the rate of energy loss from the oceans much like the Greenhouse effect on steroids ?”
Convection and cloud cover accompany the warmer water as it travels east during the El Nino and they accompany the warmer water west as it returns to the PWP during the La Nina and ENSO-neutral phases.
Good, we all seem to agree that it is the warmth of the water that then leads to convection and cloud cover rather than the cloud cover coming along first and holding in any warmth.
It is then the geographical distribution of the cloud cover that becomes important.
El Nino events are associated with rising air from the warm water in the El Nino regions as per Willis Eschenbach’s thermostat hypothesis. That rising air then has to descend elsewhere and it does so in the subtropical high pressure cells either side of the ITCZ. Those larger and more intense high pressure cells then produce less cloudiness in the areas they affect which allows more energy into the oceans outside the ENSO regions.
In the late 20th century the ocean heat content rose and global cloudiness fell despite more and stronger El Ninos than previously so one is driven to the conclusion that El Nino may be a discharge mode in the ENSO regions but a recharge mode under the adjoining subtropical high pressure cells.
Vice versa for La Nina.
Thus we have simultaneous recharge / discharge in different locations (on the face of it producing an energy neutral process) so what other factor causes recharge or discharge to swing to or from net warming of the system or to or from net cooling of the system ?
I suggest that there is a role for the top down solar effect on the surface pressure distribution.
When the sun is active the climate zones shift towards the poles thus widening the equatorial air masses independently of ENSO. That allows more energy into the oceans than the ENSO process alone so it supplements an essentially neutral ENSO process towards energy gain for the system as a whole.
Vice versa for a period of less active sun.
Stephen Wilde says:
November 13, 2011 at 7:30 pm
phlogiston.
I think you are on the right track and the amount of cold upwelling near Peru would indeed be relevant in my wider conceptual ‘model’.
One of the points I made elsewhere is that periods of increased or decreased solar input to the oceans could well introduce temperature discontinuities along the horizontal toute of the thermohaline circulation. When those discontinuities resurface some 1000 or so years later they would modify the balance between El Nino and La Nina (and atmospheric CO2 for that matter as per Murry Salby’s preliminary paper).
We agree on the general picture of solar and possibly other astrophysical forcings acting on THC to produce effects years later; your model is classical while the paradigm I find more compelling is the nonlinear / nonequilibrium oscillating dynamic system. I notice that another aspect of your general model – upper atmospheric solar interactions involving UV, seem to be attracting mainstream attention especially the UV aspect (Prof Lockwood from Reading seems to be running with it). You should publish this material and not let it get expropriated.
Oddly the blog community seems little better than the climate establishment in refusing to offer more than lip service to nonlinear pattern dynamics, clinging stubbornly to linear Catholic logic. Perhaps this is just primate sociobiology – what it takes is an individual with the right smelling bottom to champion the idea. Willis Essenbach is of course sociobiologically the right stuff with a wonderfully fragrant derierre, but his woeful forays into chaos and nonlinearity have done more harm than good. I have published in the literature on nonequilibrium pattern models for biological phenomena – it is mainly the Chinese who seem to pick up on it.
“You should publish this material and not let it get expropriated.”
It has been published and duly dated in several locations. Expropriation is no longer an option but no doubt it could be refined.
The general idea of UV or EUV effects is not novel but I have extended it to other chemical reactions including nitrous oxide and have weaved it into a pretty complete climate overview. That is where the novelty lies.
I’m sure there are also such oscillations as you propose within the system and lots else besides but they can all be fitted into my general overview at appropriate levels of contributory influence.There is room for many of the regulars here to graft their own ideas onto it.
We are a bit off topic now so better get back to it if there is more to be said.
Bob Tisdale
November 14, 2011 at 3:05 am
Thanks again Bob.
Regards the permanent upwelling, I was sure I had read it at some stage. A quick search of my USB key located it.
You may be familiar with a highly detailed paper about the Humboldt current by Thiel et al
Not quite peru but neighbourly close by. These upwelling zones are relatively small, in shallow water near the coast and usually in bays. It seems the topography of the region has much to do with it.
When the current strengthens (seasonally) it upwells in many other areas and spreads along as well as away from the coast (Galapagos islands etc).
I have the paper in pdf, would be glad to email to you if you wish. Mostly concerned with HC effects on local fisheries etc but very detailed overall about the HC.
By the way, have you had the opportunity to look at the Quinn El Nino index? From 1525 to 1987
http://jisao.washington.edu/data/quinn/
Is it something useful to your work?
Baa Humbug says: Thanks for the link to the Quinn El Nino index.
That Quinn index is useful, thanks.
The most obvious feature is the dearth of El Ninos in the 1600s and most of the 1700s.
Given that that was the period of the Maunder Minimum there does seem to be a link between solar activity and the amount of energy available to fuel El Ninos which fits my proposals nicely.
It helps to link Bob’s work to the longer term background trends in climate over centuries.
You may want to look at the talk that I gave in Melbourne in 2009 at Conference on Natural Climate Change:
http://www.naturalclimatechange.info/?q=node/10
Click on Session five by Ian Wilson