
UPDATE: see some reactions to this announcement here
From the GWPF
This refers to the CLOUD experiment at CERN.
I’ll have more on this as it develops (updated twice since the original report now), but for the short term, it appears that a non-visible light irradiance effect on Earth’s cloud seeds has been confirmed. The way it is posited to work is that the effect of cosmic rays (modulated by the sun’s magnetic variations which either allow more or deflect more cosmic rays) creates cloud condensation nuclei in the Earth’s atmosphere. With more condensation nuclei, more clouds form and vice-versa. Clouds have significant effects on TSI at the surface.
Even the IPCC has admitted this in their latest (2007) report:
“Cloud feedbacks are the primary source of inter-model differences in equilibrium climate sensitivity, with low cloud being the largest contributor”.
Update: From the Nature article, Kirkby is a bit more muted in his assessment than the GWPF:
Early results seem to indicate that cosmic rays do cause a change. The high-energy protons seemed to enhance the production of nanometre-sized particles from the gaseous atmosphere by more than a factor of ten. But, Kirkby adds, those particles are far too small to serve as seeds for clouds. “At the moment, it actually says nothing about a possible cosmic-ray effect on clouds and climate, but it’s a very important first step,” he says.
Update: Bizarrely, New Scientist headlines with: Cloud-making: Another human effect on the climate
================================================================
CERN Experiment Confirms Cosmic Rays Influence Climate Change.
by Nigel Calder
Long-anticipated results of the CLOUD experiment at CERN in Geneva appear in tomorrow’s issue of the journal Nature (25 August). The Director General of CERN stirred controversy last month, by saying that the CLOUD team’s report should be politically correct about climate change (see my 17 July post below). The implication was that they should on no account endorse the Danish heresy – Henrik Svensmark’s hypothesis that most of the global warming of the 20th Century can be explained by the reduction in cosmic rays due to livelier solar activity, resulting in less low cloud cover and warmer surface temperatures.
Willy-nilly the results speak for themselves, and it’s no wonder the Director General was fretful.
Jasper Kirkby of CERN and his 62 co-authors, from 17 institutes in Europe and the USA, announce big effects of pions from an accelerator, which simulate the cosmic rays and ionize the air in the experimental chamber. The pions strongly promote the formation of clusters of sulphuric acid and water molecules – aerosols of the kind that may grow into cloud condensation nuclei on which cloud droplets form. What’s more, there’s a very important clarification of the chemistry involved.
A breach of etiquette
My interest in CLOUD goes back nearly 14 years, to a lecture I gave at CERN about Svensmark’s discovery of the link between cosmic rays and cloudiness. It piqued Kirkby’s curiosity, and both Svensmark and I were among those who helped him to prepare his proposal for CLOUD.
By an unpleasant irony, the only Svensmark contribution acknowledged in theNature report is the 1997 paper (Svensmark and Friis-Christensen) on which I based my CERN lecture. There’s no mention of the successful experiments in ion chemistry and molecular cluster formation by the Danish team in Copenhagen, Boulby and latterly in Aarhus where they beat CLOUD to the first results obtained using a particle beam (instead of gamma rays and natural cosmic rays) to ionize the air in the experimental chamber – see http://calderup.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/accelerator-results-on-cloud-nucleation-2/
What will historians of science make of this breach of scientific etiquette? That Kirkby was cross because Svensmark, losing patience with the long delay in getting approval and funding for CLOUD, took matters into his own hands? Or because Svensmark’s candour about cosmic rays casting doubt on catastrophic man-made global warming frightened the national funding agencies? Or was Kirkby simply doing his best (despite the results) to obey his Director General by slighting all things Danish?
Personal rivalries aside, the important question is what the new CLOUD paper means for the Svensmark hypothesis. Pick your way through the cautious prose and you’ll find this:
“Ion-induced nucleation [cosmic ray action] will manifest itself as a steady production of new particles [molecular clusters] that is difficult to isolate in atmospheric observations because of other sources of variability but is nevertheless taking place and could be quite large when averaged globally over the troposphere [the lower atmosphere].”
It’s so transparently favourable to what the Danes have said all along that I’m surprised the warmists’ house magazine Nature is able to publish it, even omitting the telltale graph shown at the start of this post. Added to the already favourable Danish experimental findings, the more detailed CERN result is excellent. Thanks a million, Jasper.
Enlightening chemistry
And in friendlier times we’d be sharing champagne for a fine discovery with CLOUD, that traces of ammonia can increase the production of the sulphuric clusters a thousandfold. It’s highlighted in the report’s title: “Role of sulphuric acid, ammonia and galactic cosmic rays in atmospheric aerosol nucleation” and it was made possible by the more elaborate chemical analysis in the big-team set-up in Geneva. In essence, the ammonia helps to stabilize the molecular clusters.
Although not saying it openly, the CLOUD team implies a put-down for the Danes with this result, repeatedly declaring that without ammonia there’d be little cluster production at low altitudes. But although the Aarhus experimenters did indeed assume the simpler reaction (H2SO4 + H2O), differing results in successive experimental runs made them suspect that varying amounts of trace impurities were present in the air cylinders used to fill their chamber. Now it looks as if a key impurity may have been ammonia. But some members of the CLOUD consortium also favoured (H2SO4 + H2O) and early runs in Geneva used no intentional ammonia. So they’ve little reason to scoff.
In any case, whether the basic chemistry is (H2SO4 + H2O) or (H2SO4 + H2O + NH3) is an academic rather than a practical point. There are always traces of ammonia in the real air, and according to the CLOUD report you need only one molecule in 30 billion. If that helps to oil Svensmark’s climatic motor, it’s good to know, but it calls for no apologies and alters the climatic implications not a jot.
The experiment’s logo. The acronym “Cosmics Leaving Outdoor Droplets” always implied strong interest in Svensmark’s hypothesis. And the roles of the Galaxy and the Sun are acknowledged.Technically, CLOUD is a welcome advance on the Danish experiments. Not only is the chemistry wider ranging but molecular clusters as small as 1.7 nanometres in diameter are detectable, compared with 4 nm in Denmark. And the set-up enables the scientists to study the ion chemistry at lower temperatures, corresponding to increasing altitudes in the atmosphere. Cluster production soars as the temperature goes down, until “almost every negative ion gives rise to a new particle” [i.e. molecular cluster]. The lowest temperature reported in the paper is -25 oC. That corresponds to an altitude of 6000 metres, so unless you wish to visualize a rain of cloud-seeding aerosols from on high, it’s not very relevant to Svensmark’s interest in the lowest 3000 metres.
How the warmists built their dam
Shifting from my insider’s perspective on the CLOUD experiment, to see it on the broader canvas of the politicized climate science of the early 21st Century, the chief reaction becomes a weary sigh of relief. Although they never said so, the High Priests of the Inconvenient Truth – in such temples as NASA-GISS, Penn State and the University of East Anglia – always knew that Svensmark’s cosmic ray hypothesis was the principal threat to their sketchy and poorly modelled notions of self-amplifying action of greenhouse gases.
In telling how the obviously large influences of the Sun in previous centuries and millennia could be explained, and in applying the same mechanism to the 20th warming, Svensmark put the alarmist predictions at risk – and with them the billions of dollars flowing from anxious governments into the global warming enterprise.
For the dam that was meant to ward off a growing stream of discoveries coming from the spring in Copenhagen, the foundation was laid on the day after the Danes first announced the link between cosmic rays and clouds at a space conference in Birmingham, England, in 1996. “Scientifically extremely naïve and irresponsible,”Bert Bolin declared, as Chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
As several journalists misbehaved by reporting the story from Birmingham, the top priority was to tame the media. The first courses of masonry ensured that anything that Svensmark and his colleagues might say would be ignored or, failing that, be promptly rubbished by a warmist scientist. Posh papers like The Times of London and the New York Times, and posh TV channels like the BBC’s, readily fell into line. Enthusiastically warmist magazines like New Scientist and Scientific Americanneeded no coaching.
Similarly the journals Nature and Science, which in my youth prided themselves on reports that challenged prevailing paradigms, gladly provided cement for higher masonry, to hold the wicked hypothesis in check at the scientific level. Starve Svensmark of funding. Reject his scientific papers but give free rein to anyone who criticizes him. Trivialize the findings in the Holy Writ of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. None of this is paranoia on my part, but a matter of close personal observation since 1996.
“It’s the Sun, stupid!” The story isn’t really about a bunch of naughty Danish physicists. They are just spokesmen for the most luminous agent of climate change. As the Sun was what the warmists really wanted to tame with their dam, they couldn’t do it. And coming to the Danes’ aid, by briefly blasting away many cosmic rays with great puffs of gas, the Sun enabled the team to trace in detail the consequent reduction in cloud seeding and liquid water in clouds. See my posthttp://calderup.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/do-clouds-disappear/ By the way, that research also disposes of a morsel of doubt in the new CLOUD paper, about whether the small specks made by cosmic rays really grow sufficiently to seed cloud droplets.
As knowledge accumulated behind their dam and threatened to overtop it, the warmists had one last course to lay. Paradoxically it was CLOUD. Long delays with this experiment to explore the microchemical mechanism of the Svensmark effect became the chief excuse for deferring any re-evaluation of the Sun’s role in climate change. When the microchemical mechanism was revealed prematurely by the SKY experiment in Copenhagen and published in 2006, the warmists said, “No particle accelerator? That won’t do! Wait for CLOUD.” When the experiment in Aarhus confirmed the mechanism using a particle accelerator they said, “Oh that’s just the Danes again! Wait for CLOUD.”
Well they’ve waited and their dam has failed them.
Hall of Shame
Retracing those 14 years, what if physics had functioned as it is supposed to do? What if CLOUD, quickly approved and funded, had verified the Svensmark effect with all the authority of CERN, in the early 2000s. What if the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change had done a responsible job, acknowledging the role of the Sun and curtailing the prophecies of catastrophic warming?
For a start there would have no surprise about the “travesty” that global warming has stopped since the mid-1990s, with the Sun becoming sulky. Vast sums might have been saved on misdirected research and technology, and on climate change fests and wheezes of every kind. The world’s poor and their fragile living environment could have had far more useful help than precautions against warming.
And there would have been less time for so many eminent folk from science, politics, industry, finance, the media and the arts to be taken in by man-made climate catastrophe. (In London, for example, from the Royal Society to the National Theatre.) Sadly for them, in the past ten years they’ve crowded with their warmist badges into a Hall of Shame, like bankers before the crash.
As I reported on May 14th, 2011 in Update on the CERN CLOUD experiment:
From Physics World Head in a CLOUD:
In this special video report for physicsworld.com CLOUD project leader Jasper Kirkby explains what his team is trying to achieve with its experiment. “We’re trying to understand what the connection is between a cosmic ray going through the atmosphere and the creation of so-called aerosol seeds – the seed for a cloud droplet or an ice particle,” Kirkby explains.
The CLOUD experiment recreates these cloud-forming processes by directing the beamline at CERN’s proton synchrotron into a stainless-steel chamber containing very pure air and selected trace gases.
One of the aims of the experiment is to discover details of cloud formation that could feed back into climate models. “Everybody agrees that clouds have a huge effect on the climate. But the understanding of how big that effect is is really very poorly known,” says Kirkby.
Here’s the video, click image below to launch it.
=====================================================
More coverage: Big hat tip to WUWT reader “Andrew20”
Cosmic rays get ahead in CLOUD
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2011/August/24081102.asp
Cloud formation may be linked to cosmic rays
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110824/full/news.2011.504.html
Cloud formation study casts a shadow over certain climate models
======================================================
Update: From Nigel Calder’s blog
A graph they’d prefer you not to notice. Tucked away near the end of online supplementary material, and omitted from the printed CLOUD paper in Nature, it clearly shows how cosmic rays promote the formation of clusters of molecules (“particles”) that in the real atmosphere can grow and seed clouds. In an early-morning experimental run at CERN, starting at 03.45, ultraviolet light began making sulphuric acid molecules in the chamber, while a strong electric field cleansed the air of ions. It also tended to remove molecular clusters made in the neutral environment (n) but some of these accumulated at a low rate. As soon as the electric field was switched off at 04.33, natural cosmic rays (gcr) raining down through the roof of the experimental hall in Geneva helped to build clusters at a higher rate. How do we know they were contributing? Because when, at 04.58, CLOUD simulated stronger cosmic rays with a beam of charged pion particles (ch) from the accelerator, the rate of cluster production became faster still. The various colours are for clusters of different diameters (in nanometres) as recorded by various instruments. The largest (black) took longer to grow than the smallest (blue). This is Fig. S2c from supplementary online material for J. Kirkby et al., Nature, 476, 429-433, © Nature 2011
Leif Svalgaard says:
“The program is not constructed nilly-willy. Each piece of the program represents a physical reality or hypothesis. The output is the result of all the pieces working together.”
However, not all scientific codes are constructed or documented very well – I offer you exhibit A.
Moreover, what Leif doesn’t mention is that most of the calculations we solve in science and engineering (particularly in thermo-fluids) are NON-LINEAR. You are never guaranteed a solution, nor are you guaranteed that a solution even exists. If you somehow can define all of your differential equations, boundary conditions, and auxiliary relations that you believe to be applicable to a physical process, it is very possible to solve them badly (regardless if the code is “nice” and all the pieces “work together”). I’ve been working in computational fluid dynamics for over 20 years, and it is amazing how even the simplest problems in fluids can be very difficult to solve numerically, and how “bugs” show up unexpectedly. Unfortunately, colorful animations and graphics often mask what are underneath poor numerical solutions…
Scottish Sceptic says: August 26, 2011 at 1:26 am
… so why are starry nights colder?
*************************
I am just a simple redneck (and proud of it) from Texas, so I hope that the other Gentle Readers here will correct me if I’m wrong. I believe the answer to your query is:
Because the most potent and most common greenhouse gas is…………water vapor! “A starry night” implies that there is very little water vapor in the air. So heat energy radiates into space unimpeded. (Yes, Virginia, there ARE greenhouse gasses and they do increase the temperature of the Earth.)
I used to live in the high deserts of Nevada and Idaho. It was not uncommon to see temperature swings on the order of 40 degrees F in the summer. The other GHGs, like CO2 are trivial.
Pocatello, ID High/Low Temp
From the NWS: http://www.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=pih
August, 2011
25 95/62 33 deg F difference
24 97/50 47
23 92/49 43
22 97/47 50
Cool, Huh?
Regards,
Steamboat Jack (Jon Jewett’s evil twin)
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 25, 2011 at 8:51 pm
Theo Goodwin says:
August 25, 2011 at 8:18 pm
you have no understanding of scientific method whatsoever.
“Strong words. And incorrect.”
You misunderstand me. I do not question your abilities as a scientist, writer, or blogger. If you enjoy playing with computer computer models while you are doing your science, I have no doubt that the investment in the supercomputer will pay off handsomely.
My one very simple complaint is that your posts here do not incorporate references to the working of scientific method in the work of the scientists. For example, you do not address my claims about scientific method. Of course, you have no obligation to address those claims.
No number can be associated with a particular piece of the program.
“The program is not constructed nilly-willy. Each piece of the program represents a physical reality or hypothesis. The output is the result of all the pieces working together.”
In talking about construction of the program, or component programs, you need to compare that construction to the process of creating physical hypotheses, deducing consequences from them, and checking those predictions for confirmation. As I explain in my post just above, scientific method is not available to the computer modeler for the simple and obvious reason that you have to build a whole raft of assumptions into a computer model to get it to run (solve). You cannot do the step-by-step introduction and testing of basic physical hypotheses that Kirkby is doing. Without that step-by-step work, you cannot claim that your more sophisticated sets of hypotheses rest on the firm empirical foundation of your earlier, basic physical hypotheses.
If you are using a supercomputer, as the “mainstream climate scientists” are, then you understand very little about the advanced heuristics that are needed to make your model solve. There is simply not enough time or energy in a human being to be a cutting edge scientist and a cutting edge programmer for a supercomputer. Yes, some scientists have become cutting edge programmers but they are no longer “doing” cutting edge science.
You might have broken your model into several component computer programs. You might believe that the components are neutral as regards the science. But you do not know that. The programmers will tell you how individual modules have to be adjusted and their decisions are based on advanced heuristics that have no scientific content whatsoever. That is the practical problem. Without going into the theoretical problem, I think it is safe to say that one can prove that the underlying programming is never neutral with regard to the science.
I’ve come out … when will you?
Has anyone else felt a surge of liberation today and the urge to fling back those repressed feelings, come out and openly express our “feelings”?
… no honestly! It’s great, and I think you can do it too!! Repeat after me ….
CO2 is a warming gas
YES YES !!! YOU CAN DO IT!
But seriously, isn’t it like a breath of fresh air, we can finally admit that CO2 is a warming gas without that stupid moron coming back and saying … “if you accept CO2 causes warming … what else explains global warming”.
Steamboatjack says
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/24/breaking-news-cern-experiment-confirms-cosmic-rays-influence-climate-change/#comment-728997
good post. the increase in CO2 is almost nothing compared to the water vapor floating around, never mind the oxygen (that also absorbs a little bit at 14-15)
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok
I am still looking for an answer to this problem:
If I (we) can prove that the increased vegetation causes some extra warming
what would be the proposed mechanism?
Is it that a more greener earth reflects less sunshine back to space?
Or is it the entrapment of moisture that prevents more heat from leaving earth? (GH effect)
Or is the chlorophyl capturing more energy (UV) during the day than it really needs, and gives it off during the night as IR?
Anyone any ideas on this?
Like to change horses in mid-stream? When replying to people, it is best manners to reply to what is said, not what you want them to say. Your attempts at strawmen are pathetically weak.
Um no, you are confusing religion with science. Religion explains everything, science asks “why” or “how” or “what” (when who where etc.). Science then builds an hypothesis and tests it to see if it can be sustained. If it can be, and after rigorous testing, science then says “I have a theory. This theory COULD explain what we observe.”.
Religion on the other hand says “I am the truth and the light and the way! I have all the answers!”
I will stick with science. You are welcome to your religion.
Frank K. says:
August 26, 2011 at 7:30 am
However, not all scientific codes are constructed or documented very well
Of course not, but that does not mean that all codes are poor.
Moreover, what Leif doesn’t mention is that most of the calculations we solve in science and engineering (particularly in thermo-fluids) are NON-LINEAR.
That is why we need carefully controlled numerical models, and the modellers are keenly aware of that.
Theo Goodwin says:
August 25, 2011 at 8:18 pm
you have no understanding of scientific method whatsoever. […]
My one very simple complaint is that your posts here do not incorporate references to the working of scientific method in the work of the scientists.
All good scientists follow the scientific method. That is what scientists do. If you want a reference, here is one:http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2011/2011GL048616.shtml
http://www.leif.org/research/Semiannual-Comment.pdf
scientific method is not available to the computer modeler for the simple and obvious reason that you have to build a whole raft of assumptions into a computer model to get it to run
The assumptions are called physical laws. The model solves a set of coupled non-linear differential equations, with parameterization of stuff that are not well-known.
There is simply not enough time or energy in a human being to be a cutting edge scientist and a cutting edge programmer for a supercomputer.
Programming the models does not require a ‘cutting edge’ programmer, as the program is a straightforward implementation of the physics.
You might believe that the components are neutral as regards the science.
The components are constructed such as to reflect the science.
Theo Goodwin says:
August 25, 2011 at 8:18 pm
<i.You might believe that the components are neutral as regards the science.
The components are constructed such as to reflect the science.
An example of the construction of a model for the Sun’s magnetic field is here:
http://www.leif.org/research/Calculation%20of%20Spherical%20Harmonics.pdf
Henry@Phil
If you define religion as: seeking God’s face and asking Him to show you which is the way (to do good) and you define science as doing tests and measurements and evaluations to find out what to do (to do good), then it should not take you very long to figure out that science and religion are two paths that both must lead to the truth.
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/open-letter-to-radio-702
Thanks Theo
HenryP says:
August 26, 2011 at 8:05 am
“I am still looking for an answer to this problem:
If I (we) can prove that the increased vegetation causes some extra warming
what would be the proposed mechanism?”
You would also need to consider cooling from transpiration. I believe that is considered to be the important thing that plants do, apart from recycling CO2 to O2.
Doug Badgero says:
August 26, 2011 at 7:23 am
Doug,
“Volker
“That is a fallacy. About the unknown, or that what one don’t know one cannot say nothing. (Wittgenstein)”
I have said no such thing. I have simply pointed out that it is possible that there are things we don’t yet understand about climate. Hardly much of a leap for the truly skeptical. For instance, for centuries we did not know that Newton’s laws of motion were incomplete.”
Sorry, it is of no worth to speak of that what NOT is.
“ “That is a fallacy. Your statement suggests that there are physical processes possible without the laws of nature science. The universe is not dark because one has his eyes closed.”
Are you denying the existence of deterministic chaos?”
The attribute ‘deterministic’ suggests causality in physical streaming processes using forces. Chaos is not an object of physics, because chaos is not an observable in physics.
The point, when using chaos, is to show it’s existence as a natural law.
You say: “And finally, that both weather AND climate are chaotic.”
I say weather has its basis in natural laws of physics and climate has its basis in natural laws of physics, which ARE. And that what ARE, do not need causality, it IS.
It is impossible to show with scientific methods chaos or chance. It’s a belief system.
Science is to work with that what IS, not with that, what NOT is.
V.
—————
nicola scafetta,
I can agree that the ‘science is settled’ claims of the AGW by aCO2 is ethically challenged, at the least.
I would very much appreciate more on your experience with critical climate scientists in China. Please post on it if you can.
My numerous experiences in China gave me the impression of general skepticism in the culture.
John
Hi Pochas
Yes, I know you are right,
Plants and trees both needs warmth and CO2 to grow
so this is casusing some cooling by the CO2
which, together with the radiative cooling caused by CO2,
probably neutralizes any warming effect of the CO2.
But that does not seem to take away the fact that more vegetation is trapping more heat.
Leif,
Do you think that the development of the CLOUD program was directly due to the work of Henrik Svensmark?
John
“We put all the relevant physics we know into the model the best we can”
Therin lies your first mistake.
First off, we don’t know all the physics.
Secondly, the mathematics involved is very complex. Much too complex to ever calculate. As a result, many equations are parameterized. This introduces approximations into the equation. The more parameterization, the greater the approximation.
Thirdly, the world is too big to be modeled. So they divide the world up into boxes, and declare that everything inside each box is a constant. It has been shown that just changing the size of the boxes used in your model will affect the results of the model.
Fourthly, in order to initialize the models, they have to feed in real world data. This data is not known with any degree of accuracy, so it has to be guessed at.
John Whitman wrote:
Leif,
Do you think that the development of the CLOUD program was directly due to the work of Henrik Svensmark?
+++++
Not only was it directly due to it, it directly confirms the conclusions of Henrick Svensmark.
The reports are just waffling about it for obvious reasons. They have to re-tune their funding proposals to (slowly and patiently) investigate this remarkable, unexpected, unproven, controversial, time-absorbing, budget busting need to investigate obvious and well described business of shadow-casting rain cloud formation.
The repeated statements that the GCR-induced particles formed are ‘too small’ to form clouds is ridiculous. How do they think clouds form in the first place? It all starts with a molecule (!) of H2S.
Good grief.
Volker,
You don’t understand what deterministic chaos is………..it is not “chance”. It is extreme sensitivity to initial conditions. It applies to many physical laws, e.g. Navier-Stokes equations, and the motion of the planets around the sun. It most certainly is is……..to use your somewhat curious phrasing. I suggest you Google the term.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 26, 2011 at 8:17 am
“The assumptions are called physical laws. The model solves a set of coupled non-linear differential equations, with parameterization of stuff that are not well-known.”
Differential equations are mathematical formula used for calculation. They are not about the world or human experience and do not imply anything about the world or human experience. They are not physical laws. .
You say the assumptions are physical laws. Fine, if that is true then I challenge you to present the physical laws. If you had them, you would be trumpeting them from the highest tower. You would no longer need your computer except for calculation.
(This is what drives people crazy regarding Warmista claims. Warmista claim that they are doing good science, but they have no physical laws to present and will obfuscate any attempt to discuss physical law. If Warmista are such good physical scientists, where are the physical laws that explain formation of low flying clouds?)
Let me give you an example of what you should present when presenting your physical laws about the formation of low flying clouds.
Kepler created three physical hypotheses about our solar system that have become known as Kepler’s Laws. Newton created the calculus and gave Kepler’s Laws their first rigorous formulation. Kepler’s First Law is that planetary orbits are ellipses. From this universally quantified statement, it can be predicted that Mercury has an elliptical orbit, Venus has an elliptical orbit, and so on. The “initial conditions,” the facts used for prediction, are Mercury is a planet, Venus is a planet, and so on. The predictions can be checked through observation from Earth. However, the full context of all three laws must be stated before the observations can be described clearly.
If your model contains physical hypotheses which describe the formation of low flying clouds, then produce the universally quantified statements which express them. You do not have them. No “mainstream climate scientist” has them. Kirkby just proved that.
If your “mainstream climate science” supercomputer model of Earth’s atmosphere actually contains physical laws, then there are no professional programmers who would work for you. Formulating the model in that way would make the supercomputer so slow that it would be no better than a MacIntosh. What your supercomputer contains is code created by programmers and you cannot decipher that code, unless you have actually become a programmer and left science behind. But even if you could decipher it, there is no way to associate lines of code with a particular physical hypothesis except through the numbers that each generate.
When you run your computer model, you generate a simulation and in it you find a set of numbers corresponding to cloud formation at low levels. If you had physical hypotheses describing cloud formation at low levels, you could deduce a similar set of numbers from them. Then you could compare the output of your computer simulation with the output of deduction from the physical laws. If the two outputs are identical then you could say that your model conforms to physical laws (if you had them). But that is all that you can say. And please notice that you must have the physical laws independently of your model if you are going to use them to validate your model. But you have no physical laws governing the formation of low flying clouds in Earth’s atmosphere, as Kirkby has just proved. So, you have no scientific basis to validate your model.
Maybe the most important point is that the use of models for anything other than analytic purposes is Quixotic. Physical laws stated in natural language are much easier for humans to understand and to work with than are pages of differential equations which, after all is said and done, are only one man’s technical solution to a problem requiring calculation. The computer is great for calculation and is great for the analytic purpose of creating simulations to test the assumptions that the program is built upon; however, the computer contains nothing but the assumptions programmed into it.
Luther Wu says:
August 26, 2011 at 8:43 am
Thanks Theo
My pleasure, Luther. I am pleased to learn that you find something interesting in one of my posts.
John Whitman says:
August 26, 2011 at 9:29 am
Do you think that the development of the CLOUD program was directly due to the work of Henrik Svensmark?
I don’t know about ‘directly’. I sense some rivalry between Svensmakrk and CLOUD.
Mark Wilson says:
August 26, 2011 at 9:40 am
“We put all the relevant physics we know into the model the best we can”
Therin lies your first mistake.
First off, we don’t know all the physics.
We put in what we know. As we learn more, that is put in too. Perhaps one day the CERN finding will find its way into the models.
Secondly, the mathematics involved is very complex. Much too complex to ever calculate. As a result, many equations are parameterized. This introduces approximations into the equation. The more parameterization, the greater the approximation.
Everything are approximations, so we get approximate answers, but those are better than no answers.
Thirdly, the world is too big to be modeled. So they divide the world up into boxes
With ever increasing computer power, the boxes become smaller and smaller and the results better and better. Your and meany other’s mistake is to believe that models in principle are useless.
@- Theo Goodwin says:
August 26, 2011 at 7:25 am
“Kirkby and team are not trying to measure aerosol formation in nature. They are trying to measure the effects of a particular kind of cosmic ray beam on an artificial environment. Notice that they added water vapor, sulphuric acid, and ammonia in a controlled way. In this way, they learned something about the interactions among those four items. The electric field is an attempt to limit the experiment to those four items. What they are trying to do is test the most basic physical hypotheses about aerosol formation. They are not jumping ahead to the question(s) that gets debated here, namely, can increases in GCRs increase cloud cover. That questions remains far down the road after they have done many more tests in development of the basic physical hypotheses.”
This is possibly the most accurate and insightful post in this thread about the experimental results announced. This is the first, extremely preliminary, results from a large research project that may get to how, when and why cloud condensation nuclei form. But the effect of a pion beam on small molecular cluster aerosols is a LONG way away from that.
At best it nothing to say about Svenmarks’ hypothesis that GCR modulate cloud cover and by extension decadel climate trends.
At worst it indicates Svenmarks’ hypothesis that GCR increase low thick cloud that reflects solar irradiance and cools the climate (or warms when GCR flux falls) is false. The sentence in the abstract –
-”We find that ion-induced binary nucleation of H2SO4–H2O can occur in the mid-troposphere but is negligible in the boundary layer.”-
Would seem to indicate that the specific detail of the Svenmark hypothesis – the GCR effect on low altitude clouds – is likely to be of negligible influence.
Which makes the various posters calling for the physics Nobel for Svenmark look at minimum a little premature…
I expect that the exciting new results Kirkby will be announcing in another few months/year will be that DMS when added vastly increases and modulates aerosol nuclei formation with or without the pion beam.
-grin-
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 26, 2011 at 8:17 am
Theo Goodwin says:
August 25, 2011 at 8:18 pm
My one very simple complaint is that your posts here do not incorporate references to the working of scientific method in the work of the scientists.
“All good scientists follow the scientific method. That is what scientists do. If you want a reference, here is one:http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2011/2011GL048616.shtml
http://www.leif.org/research/Semiannual-Comment.pdf”
Do not ask me to assume that you understand scientific method because you are a scientist. If you want me to believe that you understand scientific then use the terms of scientific method when you respond to my claims about it.
Do not assign me homework. I made claims about scientific method that I addressed to you. Please respond to them in your own words here and now.
Let me clearer. I was trying to be polite. I will put politeness aside. The reason I doubt that you understand scientific method is that you never talk about scientific method when posting at WUWT even though scientific method is crucial to the topic under discussion.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 26, 2011 at 8:17 am
Frank K. says:
August 26, 2011 at 7:30 am
Moreover, what Leif doesnt mention is that most of the calculations we solve in science and engineering (particularly in thermo-fluids) are NON-LINEAR.
That is why we need carefully controlled numerical models, and the modellers are keenly aware of that.
—
What do mean by “carefully controlled”? Does that mean, for example, adding a lot of artificial dissipation to a scheme so that it won’t blow up (numerically)? How about unphysical filtering and ad hoc limiters?
The big problem with code development, particularly for something as complex as a climate model, is that the modelers keep adding things to their modelers without fully understanding how their baseline models behave. That’s why I challenge the modelers to write down ALL of the relevant equations that their codes are using, including the numerical approximations (GISS still hasn’t done this for Model E). You quickly begin to see how things can go very wrong very quickly, and how much we really don’t know about even simplified systems of equations. I also keep asking the open question “How do we know that the system of equations and BCs being solved for climate modeling purposes is well-posed”? So far, no takers…