Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Loehle and Scafetta recently posted a piece on decomposing the HadCRUT3 temperature record into a couple of component cycles plus a trend. I disagreed with their analysis on a variety of grounds. In the process, I was reminded of work I had done a few years ago using what is called “Periodicity Analysis” (PDF).
A couple of centuries ago, a gentleman named Fourier showed that any signal could be uniquely decomposed into a number of sine waves with different periods. Fourier analysis has been a mainstay analytical tool since that time. It allows us to detect any underlying regular sinusoidal cycles in a chaotic signal.
Figure 1. Joseph Fourier, looking like the world’s happiest mathematician
While Fourier analysis is very useful, it has a few shortcomings. First, it can only extract sinusoidal signals. Second, although it has good resolution as short timescales, it has poor resolution at the longer timescales. For many kinds of cyclical analysis, I prefer periodicity analysis.
So how does periodicity analysis work? The citation above gives a very technical description of the process, and it’s where I learned how to do periodicity analysis. Let me attempt to give a simpler description, although I recommend the citation for mathematicians.
Periodicity analysis breaks down a signal into cycles, but not sinusoidal cycles. It does so by directly averaging the data itself, so that it shows the actual cycles rather than theoretical cycles.
For example, suppose that we want to find the actual cycle of length two in a given dataset. We can do it by numbering the data points in order, and then dividing them into odd- and even-numbered data points. If we average all of the odd data points, and we average all of the even data, it will give us the average cycle of length two in the data. Here is what we get when we apply that procedure to the HadCRUT3 dataset:
Figure 2. Periodicity in the HadCRUT3 global surface temperature dataset, with a cycle length of 2. The cycle has been extended to be as long as the original dataset.
As you might imagine for a cycle of length 2, it is a simple zigzag. The amplitude is quite small, only plus/minus a hundredth of a degree. So we can conclude that there is only a tiny cycle of length two in the HadCRUT3.
Next, here is the same analysis, but with a cycle length of four. To do the analysis, we number the dataset in order with a cycle of four, i.e. “1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 …”
Then we average all the “ones” together, and all of the twos and the threes and the fours. When we plot these out, we see the following pattern:
Figure 3. Periodicity in the HadCRUT3 global surface temperature dataset, with a cycle length of 4. The cycle has been extended to be as long as the original dataset.
As I mentioned above, we are not reducing the dataset to sinusoidal (sine wave shaped) cycles. Instead, we are determining the actual cycles in the dataset. This becomes more evident when we look at say the twenty year cycle:
Figure 4. Periodicity in the HadCRUT3 dataset, with a cycle length of 20. The cycle has been extended to be as long as the original dataset.
Note that the actual 20 year cycle is not sinusoidal. Instead, it rises quite sharply, and then decays slowly.
Now, as you can see from the three examples above, the amplitudes of the various length cycles are quite different. If we set the mean (average) of the original data to zero, we can measure the power in the cyclical underlying signals as the sum of the absolute values of the signal data. It is useful to compare this power value to the total power in the original signal. If we do this at all possible frequencies, we get a graph of the strength of each of the underlying cycles.
For example, suppose we are looking at a simple sine wave with a period of 24 years. Figure 5 shows the sine wave, along with periodicity analysis in blue showing the power in each of the various length cycles:
Figure 5. A sine wave, along with the periodicity analysis of all cycles up to half the length of the dataset.
Looking at Figure 5, we can see one clear difference between Fourier analysis and periodicity analysis — the periodicity analysis shows peaks at 24, 48, and 72 years, while a Fourier analysis of the same data would only show the 24-year cycle. Of course, the apparent 48 and 72 year peaks are merely a result of the 24 year cycle. Note also that the shortest length peak (24 years) is sharper than the longest length (72-year) peak. This is because there are fewer data points to measure and average when we are dealing with longer time spans, so the sharp peaks tend to broaden with increasing cycle length.
To move to a more interesting example relevant to the Loehle/Scafetta paper, consider the barycentric cycle of the sun. The sun rotates around the center of mass of the solar system. As it rotates, it speeds up and slows down because of the varying pull of the planets. What are the underlying cycles?
We can use periodicity analysis to find the cycles that have the most effect on the barycentric velocity. Figure 6 shows the process, step by step:
Figure 6. Periodicity analysis of the annual barycentric velocity data.
The top row shows the barycentric data on the left, along with the amount of power in cycles of various lengths on the right in blue. The periodicity diagram at the top right shows that the overwhelming majority of the power in the barycentric data comes from a ~20 year cycle. It also demonstrates what we saw above, the spreading of the peaks of the signal at longer time periods because of the decreasing amount of data.
The second row left panel shows the signal that is left once we subtract out the 20-year cycle from the barycentric data. The periodicity diagram on the second row right shows that after we remove the 20-year cycle, the maximum amount of power is in the 83 year cycle. So as before, we remove that 83-year cycle.
Once that is done, the third row right panel shows that there is a clear 19-year cycle (visible as peaks at 19, 38, 57, and 76 years. This cycle may be a result of the fact that the “20-year cycle” is actually slightly less than 20 years). When that 19-year cycle is removed, there is a 13-year cycle visible at 13, 26, 39 years etc. And once that 13-year cycle is removed … well, there’s not much left at all.
The bottom left panel shows the original barycentric data in black, and the reconstruction made by adding just these four cycles of different lengths is shown in blue. As you can see, these four cycles are sufficient to reconstruct the barycentric data quite closely. This shows that we’ve done a valid deconstruction of the original data.
Now, what does all of this have to do with the Loehle/Scafetta paper? Well, two things. First, in the discussion on that thread I had said that I thought that the 60 year cycle that Loehle/Scafetta said was in the barycentric data was very weak. As the analysis above shows, the barycentric data does not have any kind of strong 60-year underlying cycle. Loehle/Scafetta claimed that there were ~ 20-year and ~ 60-year cycles in both the solar barycentric data and the surface temperature data. I find no such 60-year cycle in the barycentric data.
However, that’s not what I set out to investigate. I started all of this because I thought that the analysis of random red-noise datasets might show spurious cycles. So I made up some random red-noise datasets the same length as the HadCRUT3 annual temperature records (158 years), and I checked to see if they contained what look like cycles.
A “red-noise” dataset is one which is “auto-correlated”. In a temperature dataset, auto-correlated means that todays temperature depends in part on yesterday’s temperature. One kind of red-noise data is created by what are called “ARMA” processes. “AR” stands for “auto-regressive”, and “MA” stands for “moving average”. This kind of random noise is very similar observational datasets such as the HadCRUT3 dataset.
So, I made up a couple dozen random ARMA “pseudo-temperature” datasets using the AR and MA values calculated from the HadCRUT3 dataset, and I ran a periodicity analysis on each of the pseudo-temperature datasets to see what kinds of cycles they contained. Figure 6 shows eight of the two dozen random pseudo-temperature datasets in black, along with the corresponding periodicity analysis of the power in various cycles in blue to the right of the graph of the dataset:
Figure 6. Pseudo-temperature datasets (black lines) and their associated periodicity (blue circles). All pseudo-temperature datasets have been detrended.
Note that all of these pseudo-temperature datasets have some kind of apparent underlying cycles, as shown by the peaks in the periodicity analyses in blue on the right. But because they are purely random data, these are only pseudo-cycles, not real underlying cycles. Despite being clearly visible in the data and in the periodicity analyses, the cycles are an artifact of the auto-correlation of the datasets.
So for example random set 1 shows a strong cycle of about 42 years. Random set 6 shows two strong cycles, of about 38 and 65 years. Random set 17 shows a strong ~ 45-year cycle, and a weaker cycle around 20 years or so. We see this same pattern in all eight of the pseudo-temperature datasets, with random set 20 having cycles at 22 and 44 years, and random set 21 having a 60-year cycle and weak smaller cycles.
That is the main problem with the Loehle/Scafetta paper. While they do in fact find cycles in the HadCRUT3 data, the cycles are neither stronger nor more apparent than the cycles in the random datasets above. In other words, there is no indication at all that the HadCRUT3 dataset has any kind of significant multi-decadal cycles.
How do I know that?
Well, one of the datasets shown in Figure 6 above is actually not a random dataset. It is the HadCRUT3 surface temperature dataset itself … and it is indistinguishable from the truly random datasets in terms of its underlying cycles. All of them have visible cycles, it’s true, in some cases strong cycles … but they don’t mean anything.
w.
APPENDIX:
I did the work in the R computer language. Here’s the code, giving the “periods” function which does the periodicity function calculations. I’m not that fluent in R, it’s about the eighth computer language I’ve learned, so it might be kinda klutzy.
#FUNCTIONS
PI=4*atan(1) # value of pi
dsin=function(x) sin(PI*x/180) # sine function for degrees
regb =function(x) {lm(x~c(1:length(x)))[[1]][[1]]} #gives the intercept of the trend line
regm =function(x) {lm(x~c(1:length(x)))[[1]][[2]]} #gives the slope of the trend line
detrend = function(x){ #detrends a line
x-(regm(x)*c(1:length(x))+regb(x))
}
meanbyrow=function(modline,x){ #returns a full length repetition of the underlying cycle means
rep(tapply(x,modline,mean),length.out=length(x))
}
countbyrow=function(modline,x){ #returns a full length repetition of the underlying cycle number of datapoints N
rep(tapply(x,modline,length),length.out=length(x))
}
sdbyrow=function(modline,x){ #returns a full length repetition of the underlying cycle standard deviations
rep(tapply(x,modline,sd),length.out=length(x))
}
normmatrix=function(x) sum(abs(x)) #returns the norm of the dataset, which is proportional to the power in the signal
# Function “periods” (below) is the main function that calculates the percentage of power in each of the cycles. It takes as input the data being analyzed (inputx). It displays the strength of each cycle. It returns a list of the power of the cycles (vals), along with the means (means), numner of datapoints N (count), and standard deviations (sds).
# There’s probably an easier way to do this, I’ve used a brute force method. It’s slow on big datasets
periods=function(inputx,detrendit=TRUE,doplot=TRUE,val_lim=1/2) {
x=inputx
if (detrendit==TRUE) x=detrend(as.vector(inputx))
xlen=length(x)
modmatrix=matrix(NA, xlen,xlen)
modmatrix=matrix(mod((col(modmatrix)-1),row(modmatrix)),xlen,xlen)
countmatrix=aperm(apply(modmatrix,1,countbyrow,x))
meanmatrix=aperm(apply(modmatrix,1,meanbyrow,x))
sdmatrix=aperm(apply(modmatrix,1,sdbyrow,x))
xpower=normmatrix(x)
powerlist=apply(meanmatrix,1,normmatrix)/xpower
plotlist=powerlist[1:(length(powerlist)*val_lim)]
if (doplot) plot(plotlist,ylim=c(0,1),ylab=”% of total power”,xlab=”Cycle Length (yrs)”,col=”blue”)
invisible(list(vals=powerlist,means=meanmatrix,count=countmatrix,sds=sdmatrix))
}
# /////////////////////////// END OF FUNCTIONS
# TEST
# each row in the values returned represents a different period length.
myreturn=periods(c(1,2,1,4,1,2,1,8,1,2,2,4,1,2,1,8,6,5))
myreturn$vals
myreturn$means
myreturn$sds
myreturn$count
#ARIMA pseudotemps
# note that they are standardized to a mean of zero and a standard deviation of 0.2546, which is the standard deviation of the HadCRUT3 dataset.
# each row is a pseudotemperature record
instances=24 # number of records
instlength=158 # length of each record
rand1=matrix(arima.sim(list(order=c(1,0,1), ar=.9673,ma=-.4591),
n=instances*instlength),instlength,instances) #create pseudotemps
pseudotemps =(rand1-mean(rand1))*.2546/sd(rand1)
# Periodicity analysis of simple sine wave
par(mfrow=c(1,2),mai=c(.8,.8,.2,.2)*.8,mgp=c(2,1,0)) # split window
sintest=dsin((0:157)*15)# sine function
plotx=sintest
plot(detrend(plotx)~c(1850:2007),type=”l”,ylab= “24 year sine wave”,xlab=”Year”)
myperiod=periods(plotx)
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Willis Eschenbach says:
August 1, 2011 at 10:02
I don’t know where to start Willis, or even if I should bother. Try to keep up and follow what Leif and I are discussing.
tallbloke says:
July 31, 2011 at 7:34 am
Thanks, Tallbloke. The motion in the Z axis is only 2.6% of the motion in either the X or Y axes, so your claim that the modulation in that axis is ‘strong’ doesn’t mean much. It’s like saying “that’s a really big ant”, it isn’t too relevant in the larger scale of things. The effect of variations in the z direction on either total distance, velocity, or angular momentum is trivial.
This is because distance (or velocity or momentum) is figured generally as the square root of (X^2 + Y^2 + Z^2). So at the extremes (when X and Y = 100, and Z = 2.6), the distance neglecting the Z component is SQRT(X^2+Y^2) = SQRT(20,000) = 141.4213.
Including the Z component the distance is 141.4452, a trivial difference of two hundredths of one percent … and the same is true for the velocity calculations. Velocity is SQRT(∆X^2 + ∆Y^2 + ∆Z^2), so the same proportions apply.
Ah, you say, but the X and Y aren’t always at the extremes at the same time. OK, suppose X=0. The distance neglecting the Z axis is SQRT(Y^2) = 100. Including the Z axis, at a maximum it is SQRT(Y^2 + Z^2) = 100.034, about three hundredths of one percent.
My point, which keeps getting lost in the glare of competing solar claims, is twofold:
1. 60 year cycles in solar barycentric data are tiny, orders of magnitude smaller than the dominant cycles, and
2. Long-period (e.g. 60 year) pseudo-cycles are common in datasets the length of the temperature data.
w.
Willis is losing a lot of creditability here. So many ill founded attacks on those that disagree with the basic fabric of this thread. There seems to be a trend lately that WUWT is promoting Luke Warmer resident guest authors on a permanent basis.
Maybe I am just being paranoid?
tallbloke says:
July 31, 2011 at 7:34 am
there is less ‘pull’ on the Solar core in the up or down direction.
Apart from the free fall condition, the forces on the solar ‘core’ also work on the rest of the sun. The core is not special.
Geoff Sharp says:
August 1, 2011 at 10:44 am
I don’t know where to start Willis, or even if I should bother. Try to keep up and follow what Leif and I are discussing.
Well, it is Willis’ post… And he is quite correct. His comment is very pertinent to your claims. Perhaps your Uranus+Neptune cycles don’t show up because they aren’t there with enough amplitude to begin with.
Geoff Sharp says:
August 1, 2011 at 10:05 am
show me your objections to the correlations so far.
Short and sweet: there are none.
Geoff Sharp says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:15 am
So many ill founded attacks on those that disagree with the basic fabric of this thread.
Those are not ‘attacks’, just pointing out the weakness of your argument. And he is quite correct. You tend to see everything as attacks and credibility issues. Try to contemplate that perhaps you are just wrong, but can’t take well-founded criticism.
old engineer says:
July 31, 2011 at 11:39 am
The appearance of the pseudo-cycles is nothing but a function of the short length of the data and the fact that “red-noise” makes a “trail” rather than a totally random bunch of jumps. It is a kind of one-dimensional drunkards walk, which is totally random but which nonetheless forms a trail. As such, it naturally goes up and down. In a short dataset, these give the appearance of cycles. If the dataset were longer, they would be seen to be spurious.
You are right that Fourier and Periodicity Analysis are similar, and I use both. There’s a couple of things I prefer periodicity analysis for.
One is that it can distinguish between actual and spurious cycles. In periodicity analysis, a real cycle is shown at twice the cycle length, and three times the cycle length, as I illustrate in Figure 5. This doesn’t happen for a spurious cycle.
Yes, and a number of the others also show strong long-period cycles. My point is that the rough appearance of such a cycle means nothing. It turns up all the time in random pseudo-data of that length. Eight of the first 20 pseudo-temperature datasets contain spurious indications of cycles.
The problem is not with either fourier or periodicity analysis. It is the short length of the observational dataset, combined with the “red-noise” nature of that same dataset, that creates the illusion of cycles where none exist. Those pseudo-cycles will be be shown by either Fourier or Periodicity analysis, but they are very common in random datasets, so we can place absolutely no reliance on them at all.
My pleasure,
w.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 6:50 am
Newton’s laws are universal, it doesn’t matter if the stuff is in bulk or is just an atom. To obtain the gravity from a piece [or effect] of bulk matter you just sum over the constituents.
You still don’t get it. When we consider the effects of one body exerting gravitation on another, we need to consider not only the “bulk of the constituents” in mass terms defining how much gravitational pull it exerts but also the Newtonian properties of the material. I pointed out on the Loehle and Scafetta thread That:
“Newton knew his equations of motion and kinematics applied to idealised bodies with perfect elasticity. The Sun is not a perfectly elastic body, the layer which we see has differential speeds of rotation which vary both from each other and with respect to time. There are peer reviewed papers in the literature which empirically derive a linkage between the variations in the speed of rotation of various latitudinal bands and the motion of the Sun with respect to the SSB. These observations are indicative of a spin-orbit coupling caused by planetary motion.”
You responded with this:
“The Sun is a gas and Newton’s law apply to every atom of the gas.” and this:
“BTW, I don’t think you know what ‘elastic’ means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(physics)
“In physics, elasticity is the physical property of a material that returns to its original shape after the stress (e.g. external forces) that made it deform or distort is removed.”
Since the Sun is a gas, when you remove any stress it will revert to its original spherical shape, so it is perfectly elastic.
“Newton’s laws are universal and work on gases, fluids, solid bodies, anything. The ‘elastic’ bit is just nonsense. And we should really works with Einstein’s General Relativity, except for the kind of stuff we are discussing here, Newton is good enough [if you only understood it].
To which I responded:
“Keep going Leif. Tell us how the smoke you’re blowing reacts to an impacting object. By magically reforming into the perfect sphere it was originally to demonstrate its elasticity no doubt. 🙂
Try it on a snooker table with some nice hard elastic balls and a lump of warm putty. See how well the kinetics of energy transfer are maintained as motion vectors. Clue, the putty might get a bit warmer, but it won’t magically regain its shape as it is inelastic, just as the Sun’s gases are. The only reason the Sun’s gases would reform a sphere after an impact (though with many non-reverting internal redistributions) is because they form around their own centre of gravity.”
You’ve clearly proved to me, and anyone else who understands Newtonian kinematics (hands up engineers) that you don’t understand how a spin-orbit coupling can arise in an inelastic body due to gravitational interaction. The Sun as a bulk gas does not behave with the elasticity of a molecule of it’s constituent material. An orbiting planet will set up eddy currents in the Sun which will dissipate energy, or assist in the release of potential energy in a preferential location (facing the barycentre) a la Wolff and Patrone.
The Earth Moon system exhibits spin orbit coupling due to the drag caused by the Moon’s gravitational action on the inelastic oceans. I originally said that the differential motion of the various latitudinal bands on the Sun’s observable surface were indicative of a spin orbit coupling. It remains to be discovered whether that arises through the possibility proposed by Ted L, the Wolff and Patrone mechanism, tidal action or something else not yet considered, The point is that the observations stand. Your arguments about the newtonian properties of the bulk gases of the Sun don’t.
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:29 am
“Newton knew his equations of motion and kinematics applied to idealised bodies with perfect elasticity.
Complete nonsense. Newton’s laws are universal and apply to all bodies, whatsoever.
An orbiting planet will set up eddy currents in the Sun
No, as both are in free fall.
The point is that the observations stand
The observations are marginal, at best.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:23 am
Well, it is Willis’ post… And he is quite correct. His comment is very pertinent to your claims. Perhaps your Uranus+Neptune cycles don’t show up because they aren’t there with enough amplitude to begin with.
No, I have shown that fourier type analysis can miss the important detail. But that seems to be overridden by ego driven rant.
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:29 am
“Newton knew his equations of motion and kinematics applied to idealised bodies with perfect elasticity.
Complete nonsense. Newton’s laws are universal and apply to all bodies, whatsoever.
A planet consisting of a gas, like Jupiter, orbits exactly the same that it would do if it consisted of steel.
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:29 am
“Newton knew his equations of motion and kinematics applied to idealised bodies with perfect elasticity.
Complete nonsense. Newton’s laws are universal and apply to all bodies, whatsoever.
A binary star system with two gaseous stars obey Newton’s equations of motion quite well. Now, what does that say about your understanding of Newtonian mechanics?
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:23 am
But I am still waiting for your comprehensive analysis on the pie we are sharing. Perhaps Willis will take notice of the detail and finally understand the Hydra headed wave….we can only hope.
Geoff Sharp says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:46 am
But I am still waiting for your comprehensive analysis on the pie we are sharing
Bake the pie first: annotate the BC part, mark grand minima, so we don’t have to haggle over those. Then I’ll be happy to look at the pie.
Willis Eschenbach says:
August 1, 2011 at 10:06 am
I can understand a dead link to someone else’s web site. But a dead link to your own web site? Doesn’t inspire confidence.
Nothing sinister, link I posted contained 2 sets of data which I omitted to subtract, that has been now corrected. My old DOS prog came up with graph with the peak period of about 65 years, but the spectral resolution isn’t very good, a bit on the high side, but it does sort of agree with AMO. I needed a crosscheck with a more advanced spectral analysis.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/dGMF.htm
Hope link works.
Thank you.
Geoff Sharp says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:38 am
No, I have shown that fourier type analysis can miss the important detail. But that seems to be overridden by ego driven rant.
You have shown nothing like that. Even if the bumps move around a bit they will show up in Fourier analysis, just with a broader peak. http://www.leif.org/research/FFT-Barycenter-Distance-170.png The red circle shows you the power near 170 years. It is tiny as is the 60-yr peak.
I’m not so sure who is doing the ego driven rant here. You really should tone down those personal barbs. Keep them over on your own blog, if you must.
Geoff Sharp says:
August 1, 2011 at 10:44 am
I’ve raised valid and cogent objections to your claims. I’ve asked you for citations for identified claims. I’ve asked specific questions about what you have done and what you mean.
In response, you say that you don’t know where to begin, and follow that up with an insult.
That’s your answer? That you don’t know where to begin? Do you get away with that at work? Because you won’t get away with it here.
How about you begin by answering my specific questions, like, what kind of an equation makes a “trident” headed wave? Or why don’t you begin by demonstrating exactly how such a wave might escape Fourier analysis? Or you could show the mathematical methods that you use to isolate trident headed waves from normal waves, as I requested.
I don’t care where you start, Geoff. But to say you don’t know where to start, and then follow that with an insult?
Sorry, my friend, but when you do that I just point and laugh.
w.
Geoff Sharp says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:15 am
Geoff, the basic fabric of this thread is that a) there is no significant 20 year cycle in the temperature data, b) there is no significant 60 year cycle in the solar data, and c) the 60-year cycle in the temperature data stands a very good chance of being an artifact.
Now, does that make me a Luke Warmer? I don’t understand what that has to do with anything.
And as to whether my objections to your claims are “ill founded”, well, time will tell. But I doubt that I lose credibility by making what I see as honest scientific objections. Someone is losing credibility here, but it’s not me.
!’d say 100% that you are, but YMMV.
The part you don’t seem to get is that I’m on your side. I’d love to establish a connection between the climate and the barycentric cycles of the sun. It’s just that I’ve tried and failed at that task, and near as I can tell, so has everyone else. Heck, there’s not even an apparent connection between barycentric cycles (the main one being at ~19.86 years) and sunspot cycles (~ 22 years).
So you’re attacking a straw man. I agree that there could easily be something to barycentric analysis … I just haven’t found anyone yet who could demonstrate such a connection, myself included.
And if that causes me to lose credibility, then so be it.
w.
Geoff Sharp:
At August 1, 2011 at 11:15 am you say:
“Willis is losing a lot of creditability here. So many ill founded attacks on those that disagree with the basic fabric of this thread. There seems to be a trend lately that WUWT is promoting Luke Warmer resident guest authors on a permanent basis.
Maybe I am just being paranoid?”
I do not think you are being “paranoid” but I do think you are mistaken. And I strongly disagree that Willis is “losing credibility here”.
Firstly, if you look at the previous thread then you will see that several people – I was the first – objected to the tone Willis used in his intial objections to the paper. Clearly, he felt strongly about it.
But his reaction to that strong feeling was to formulate the essay at the top of this thread and then to engage with those who questioned his essay in the thread. Such is very proper scientific behaviour. Everybody can judge his arguments for themselves.
And it is obvious to all who have followed WUWT that Willis has become a “resident guest author” because his essays have received such strong support – indeed, admiration – from many readers of WUWT.
I have been a guest author on WUWT but only once because my contribution did not obtain the clear good response that the articles from Willis usually do. I am not offended at this because I see no reason for jealousy at the success of Willis or anybody else.
Willis is clearly not a “Luke Warmer”. He is what ‘warmers’ call a ‘denier’: read his series of guest articles on WUWT if you doubt this.
I, too, am a ‘denier’ of the AGW-scare (indeed, I am probably the original ‘denier’ because I predicted the scare before it first arose – my prediction was then rejected as being “implausible” – and I have opposed it continuously since then). But if you read my post at July 30, 2011 at 4:06 pm in this thread then you will see my disagreement with the Lohele & Scaffetta paper is stronger than that presented by Willis: his disagreement is only one part of my disagreement with the L&S analysis.
Science progresses by honest disagreements openly debated. Those of us who dispute the AGW-hypothesis do not have to agree with everything from every person who shares our skepticism of AGW. We seek to gain proximity to the truth of the matter and we can expect a variety of opinions as to what is – and is not – correct interpretation of available empirical data.
Richard
Willis Eschenbach says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:04 pm
Heck, there’s not even an apparent connection between barycentric cycles (the main one being at ~19.86 years) and sunspot cycles (~ 22 years).
Ah, yes there is. 19.86 years (Jupiter – Saturn synodic cycle) is one of the periods involved in the solar cycle period. the other is 2x the Jupiter orbital period.
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/bart-modeling-the-historical-sunspot-record-from-planetary-periods/
there is no significant 20 year cycle in the temperature data,
It has been known since 1989 (GRL Vol 16 p311) that southern hemisphere night-time marine air temperatures follow the Hale cycle of ~22 years.
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/newell-climate-follows-hale-solar-sunspot-cycle/
Best to you
tb
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:45 am
Newton’s laws are universal and apply to all bodies, whatsoever.
A binary star system with two gaseous stars obey Newton’s equations of motion quite well. Now, what does that say about your understanding of Newtonian mechanics?
My statement as you well know was in the context of your claim that a spin orbit coupling is not possible because the sun is in freefall and feels no forces. Binary stars will orbit their common barycentre as Newton predicts. There will however be considerable churn within the gaseous envelopes of the stars because they are inelastic bodies and the tides raised will slow them down prematurely compared to hard solid elastic bodies because of lost ‘innate motion’ due to friction generated in tides. Just as the earth has slowed and the Moon receded because of the friction of the inelastic oceans affected by Lunar tides.
Are you still going to stand by this statement?:
Leif svalgaard said:
Since the Sun is a gas, when you remove any stress it will revert to its original spherical shape, so it is perfectly elastic.
A simple “yes” or “no” is sufficient.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:42 am
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:29 am
“Newton knew his equations of motion and kinematics applied to idealised bodies with perfect elasticity.
Complete nonsense. Newton’s laws are universal and apply to all bodies, whatsoever.
See my previous reply. Yes Newtons laws apply to all bodies, but they result in different outcomes for elastic and inelastic bodies. This is easily proved with the ball of putty on the pool table experiment.
A planet consisting of a gas, like Jupiter, orbits exactly the same that it would do if it consisted of steel.
Excellent, another proof you don’t understand Newtonian dynamics for my next blog post. Thanks.
Now, this thread is about timing of cycles in relation to climate changes, not causation of cycles, so if you want to argue further. come on over to the talkshop again and let’s have a polite debate there. Give me half an hour to finalise the post.
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:19 pm
Ah, yes there is. 19.86 years (Jupiter – Saturn synodic cycle) is one of the periods involved in the solar cycle period. the other is 2x the Jupiter orbital period.
No, the sunspot cycles have an average period of 10.81 years, but the amplitude varies with a ~120 year period, giving rise to peaks that are in the neighborhood of half the synodic cycle and the Jupiter period.
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:31 pm
There will however be considerable churn within the gaseous envelopes of the stars because they are inelastic bodies and the tides raised will slow them down prematurely compared to hard solid elastic bodies because of lost ‘innate motion’ due to friction generated in tides. Just as the earth has slowed and the Moon receded because of the friction of the inelastic oceans affected by Lunar tides.
Tides also kneed solid bodies, the moon Io comes to mind. And no need to bring up tides and everyone agrees that the only effects on bodies in free fall are tidal. You are denying the universality of Newton’s laws.
Are you still going to stand by this statement?:
Since the Sun is a gas, when you remove any stress it will revert to its original spherical shape, so it is perfectly elastic.
A simple “yes” or “no” is sufficient.
Absolutely yes as the sun’s own gravity is the restoring force, so the Sun answers to the definition of ‘elastic’. The only issue could one of time scale, but the Sun’s gravity is strong.
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Now, this thread is about timing of cycles in relation to climate changes, not causation of cycles, so if you want to argue further
The thread is about the past 150 years, which is so short that any cycles seen could well be [and probably are] spurious, so not worth discussing per se. What makes the thread potentially interesting is the question of causation, because only then could the cycles have real predictive power [they would not have if there is no causal relationship]. No need to argue further as the solar cycles have been argued over and over again with no progress in sight.