Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Loehle and Scafetta recently posted a piece on decomposing the HadCRUT3 temperature record into a couple of component cycles plus a trend. I disagreed with their analysis on a variety of grounds. In the process, I was reminded of work I had done a few years ago using what is called “Periodicity Analysis” (PDF).
A couple of centuries ago, a gentleman named Fourier showed that any signal could be uniquely decomposed into a number of sine waves with different periods. Fourier analysis has been a mainstay analytical tool since that time. It allows us to detect any underlying regular sinusoidal cycles in a chaotic signal.
Figure 1. Joseph Fourier, looking like the world’s happiest mathematician
While Fourier analysis is very useful, it has a few shortcomings. First, it can only extract sinusoidal signals. Second, although it has good resolution as short timescales, it has poor resolution at the longer timescales. For many kinds of cyclical analysis, I prefer periodicity analysis.
So how does periodicity analysis work? The citation above gives a very technical description of the process, and it’s where I learned how to do periodicity analysis. Let me attempt to give a simpler description, although I recommend the citation for mathematicians.
Periodicity analysis breaks down a signal into cycles, but not sinusoidal cycles. It does so by directly averaging the data itself, so that it shows the actual cycles rather than theoretical cycles.
For example, suppose that we want to find the actual cycle of length two in a given dataset. We can do it by numbering the data points in order, and then dividing them into odd- and even-numbered data points. If we average all of the odd data points, and we average all of the even data, it will give us the average cycle of length two in the data. Here is what we get when we apply that procedure to the HadCRUT3 dataset:
Figure 2. Periodicity in the HadCRUT3 global surface temperature dataset, with a cycle length of 2. The cycle has been extended to be as long as the original dataset.
As you might imagine for a cycle of length 2, it is a simple zigzag. The amplitude is quite small, only plus/minus a hundredth of a degree. So we can conclude that there is only a tiny cycle of length two in the HadCRUT3.
Next, here is the same analysis, but with a cycle length of four. To do the analysis, we number the dataset in order with a cycle of four, i.e. “1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 …”
Then we average all the “ones” together, and all of the twos and the threes and the fours. When we plot these out, we see the following pattern:
Figure 3. Periodicity in the HadCRUT3 global surface temperature dataset, with a cycle length of 4. The cycle has been extended to be as long as the original dataset.
As I mentioned above, we are not reducing the dataset to sinusoidal (sine wave shaped) cycles. Instead, we are determining the actual cycles in the dataset. This becomes more evident when we look at say the twenty year cycle:
Figure 4. Periodicity in the HadCRUT3 dataset, with a cycle length of 20. The cycle has been extended to be as long as the original dataset.
Note that the actual 20 year cycle is not sinusoidal. Instead, it rises quite sharply, and then decays slowly.
Now, as you can see from the three examples above, the amplitudes of the various length cycles are quite different. If we set the mean (average) of the original data to zero, we can measure the power in the cyclical underlying signals as the sum of the absolute values of the signal data. It is useful to compare this power value to the total power in the original signal. If we do this at all possible frequencies, we get a graph of the strength of each of the underlying cycles.
For example, suppose we are looking at a simple sine wave with a period of 24 years. Figure 5 shows the sine wave, along with periodicity analysis in blue showing the power in each of the various length cycles:
Figure 5. A sine wave, along with the periodicity analysis of all cycles up to half the length of the dataset.
Looking at Figure 5, we can see one clear difference between Fourier analysis and periodicity analysis — the periodicity analysis shows peaks at 24, 48, and 72 years, while a Fourier analysis of the same data would only show the 24-year cycle. Of course, the apparent 48 and 72 year peaks are merely a result of the 24 year cycle. Note also that the shortest length peak (24 years) is sharper than the longest length (72-year) peak. This is because there are fewer data points to measure and average when we are dealing with longer time spans, so the sharp peaks tend to broaden with increasing cycle length.
To move to a more interesting example relevant to the Loehle/Scafetta paper, consider the barycentric cycle of the sun. The sun rotates around the center of mass of the solar system. As it rotates, it speeds up and slows down because of the varying pull of the planets. What are the underlying cycles?
We can use periodicity analysis to find the cycles that have the most effect on the barycentric velocity. Figure 6 shows the process, step by step:
Figure 6. Periodicity analysis of the annual barycentric velocity data.
The top row shows the barycentric data on the left, along with the amount of power in cycles of various lengths on the right in blue. The periodicity diagram at the top right shows that the overwhelming majority of the power in the barycentric data comes from a ~20 year cycle. It also demonstrates what we saw above, the spreading of the peaks of the signal at longer time periods because of the decreasing amount of data.
The second row left panel shows the signal that is left once we subtract out the 20-year cycle from the barycentric data. The periodicity diagram on the second row right shows that after we remove the 20-year cycle, the maximum amount of power is in the 83 year cycle. So as before, we remove that 83-year cycle.
Once that is done, the third row right panel shows that there is a clear 19-year cycle (visible as peaks at 19, 38, 57, and 76 years. This cycle may be a result of the fact that the “20-year cycle” is actually slightly less than 20 years). When that 19-year cycle is removed, there is a 13-year cycle visible at 13, 26, 39 years etc. And once that 13-year cycle is removed … well, there’s not much left at all.
The bottom left panel shows the original barycentric data in black, and the reconstruction made by adding just these four cycles of different lengths is shown in blue. As you can see, these four cycles are sufficient to reconstruct the barycentric data quite closely. This shows that we’ve done a valid deconstruction of the original data.
Now, what does all of this have to do with the Loehle/Scafetta paper? Well, two things. First, in the discussion on that thread I had said that I thought that the 60 year cycle that Loehle/Scafetta said was in the barycentric data was very weak. As the analysis above shows, the barycentric data does not have any kind of strong 60-year underlying cycle. Loehle/Scafetta claimed that there were ~ 20-year and ~ 60-year cycles in both the solar barycentric data and the surface temperature data. I find no such 60-year cycle in the barycentric data.
However, that’s not what I set out to investigate. I started all of this because I thought that the analysis of random red-noise datasets might show spurious cycles. So I made up some random red-noise datasets the same length as the HadCRUT3 annual temperature records (158 years), and I checked to see if they contained what look like cycles.
A “red-noise” dataset is one which is “auto-correlated”. In a temperature dataset, auto-correlated means that todays temperature depends in part on yesterday’s temperature. One kind of red-noise data is created by what are called “ARMA” processes. “AR” stands for “auto-regressive”, and “MA” stands for “moving average”. This kind of random noise is very similar observational datasets such as the HadCRUT3 dataset.
So, I made up a couple dozen random ARMA “pseudo-temperature” datasets using the AR and MA values calculated from the HadCRUT3 dataset, and I ran a periodicity analysis on each of the pseudo-temperature datasets to see what kinds of cycles they contained. Figure 6 shows eight of the two dozen random pseudo-temperature datasets in black, along with the corresponding periodicity analysis of the power in various cycles in blue to the right of the graph of the dataset:
Figure 6. Pseudo-temperature datasets (black lines) and their associated periodicity (blue circles). All pseudo-temperature datasets have been detrended.
Note that all of these pseudo-temperature datasets have some kind of apparent underlying cycles, as shown by the peaks in the periodicity analyses in blue on the right. But because they are purely random data, these are only pseudo-cycles, not real underlying cycles. Despite being clearly visible in the data and in the periodicity analyses, the cycles are an artifact of the auto-correlation of the datasets.
So for example random set 1 shows a strong cycle of about 42 years. Random set 6 shows two strong cycles, of about 38 and 65 years. Random set 17 shows a strong ~ 45-year cycle, and a weaker cycle around 20 years or so. We see this same pattern in all eight of the pseudo-temperature datasets, with random set 20 having cycles at 22 and 44 years, and random set 21 having a 60-year cycle and weak smaller cycles.
That is the main problem with the Loehle/Scafetta paper. While they do in fact find cycles in the HadCRUT3 data, the cycles are neither stronger nor more apparent than the cycles in the random datasets above. In other words, there is no indication at all that the HadCRUT3 dataset has any kind of significant multi-decadal cycles.
How do I know that?
Well, one of the datasets shown in Figure 6 above is actually not a random dataset. It is the HadCRUT3 surface temperature dataset itself … and it is indistinguishable from the truly random datasets in terms of its underlying cycles. All of them have visible cycles, it’s true, in some cases strong cycles … but they don’t mean anything.
w.
APPENDIX:
I did the work in the R computer language. Here’s the code, giving the “periods” function which does the periodicity function calculations. I’m not that fluent in R, it’s about the eighth computer language I’ve learned, so it might be kinda klutzy.
#FUNCTIONS
PI=4*atan(1) # value of pi
dsin=function(x) sin(PI*x/180) # sine function for degrees
regb =function(x) {lm(x~c(1:length(x)))[[1]][[1]]} #gives the intercept of the trend line
regm =function(x) {lm(x~c(1:length(x)))[[1]][[2]]} #gives the slope of the trend line
detrend = function(x){ #detrends a line
x-(regm(x)*c(1:length(x))+regb(x))
}
meanbyrow=function(modline,x){ #returns a full length repetition of the underlying cycle means
rep(tapply(x,modline,mean),length.out=length(x))
}
countbyrow=function(modline,x){ #returns a full length repetition of the underlying cycle number of datapoints N
rep(tapply(x,modline,length),length.out=length(x))
}
sdbyrow=function(modline,x){ #returns a full length repetition of the underlying cycle standard deviations
rep(tapply(x,modline,sd),length.out=length(x))
}
normmatrix=function(x) sum(abs(x)) #returns the norm of the dataset, which is proportional to the power in the signal
# Function “periods” (below) is the main function that calculates the percentage of power in each of the cycles. It takes as input the data being analyzed (inputx). It displays the strength of each cycle. It returns a list of the power of the cycles (vals), along with the means (means), numner of datapoints N (count), and standard deviations (sds).
# There’s probably an easier way to do this, I’ve used a brute force method. It’s slow on big datasets
periods=function(inputx,detrendit=TRUE,doplot=TRUE,val_lim=1/2) {
x=inputx
if (detrendit==TRUE) x=detrend(as.vector(inputx))
xlen=length(x)
modmatrix=matrix(NA, xlen,xlen)
modmatrix=matrix(mod((col(modmatrix)-1),row(modmatrix)),xlen,xlen)
countmatrix=aperm(apply(modmatrix,1,countbyrow,x))
meanmatrix=aperm(apply(modmatrix,1,meanbyrow,x))
sdmatrix=aperm(apply(modmatrix,1,sdbyrow,x))
xpower=normmatrix(x)
powerlist=apply(meanmatrix,1,normmatrix)/xpower
plotlist=powerlist[1:(length(powerlist)*val_lim)]
if (doplot) plot(plotlist,ylim=c(0,1),ylab=”% of total power”,xlab=”Cycle Length (yrs)”,col=”blue”)
invisible(list(vals=powerlist,means=meanmatrix,count=countmatrix,sds=sdmatrix))
}
# /////////////////////////// END OF FUNCTIONS
# TEST
# each row in the values returned represents a different period length.
myreturn=periods(c(1,2,1,4,1,2,1,8,1,2,2,4,1,2,1,8,6,5))
myreturn$vals
myreturn$means
myreturn$sds
myreturn$count
#ARIMA pseudotemps
# note that they are standardized to a mean of zero and a standard deviation of 0.2546, which is the standard deviation of the HadCRUT3 dataset.
# each row is a pseudotemperature record
instances=24 # number of records
instlength=158 # length of each record
rand1=matrix(arima.sim(list(order=c(1,0,1), ar=.9673,ma=-.4591),
n=instances*instlength),instlength,instances) #create pseudotemps
pseudotemps =(rand1-mean(rand1))*.2546/sd(rand1)
# Periodicity analysis of simple sine wave
par(mfrow=c(1,2),mai=c(.8,.8,.2,.2)*.8,mgp=c(2,1,0)) # split window
sintest=dsin((0:157)*15)# sine function
plotx=sintest
plot(detrend(plotx)~c(1850:2007),type=”l”,ylab= “24 year sine wave”,xlab=”Year”)
myperiod=periods(plotx)
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:19 am
tallbloke says:
July 31, 2011 at 7:34 am
there is less ‘pull’ on the Solar core in the up or down direction.
Apart from the free fall condition, the forces on the solar ‘core’ also work on the rest of the sun. The core is not special.
We’re not talking about a special core. We’re talking about a gradient of density with transitions from densities where energy moves by radiation only to densities where energy moves by radiation and convection.
Willis Eschenbach says:
August 1, 2011 at 10:54 am
tallbloke says:
July 31, 2011 at 7:34 am
Willis, the strong sixty year modulation in the barycentre data is in the z axis. The Sun is tilted wrt the plane of invariance and so when the conjunction between Jupiter and Saturn takes place near the nodes of the solar equatorial plane and the plane of invariance there is less ‘pull’ on the Solar core in the up or down direction.
Thanks, Tallbloke. The motion in the Z axis is only 2.6% of the motion in either the X or Y axes, so your claim that the modulation in that axis is ‘strong’ doesn’t mean much. It’s like saying “that’s a really big ant”, it isn’t too relevant in the larger scale of things. The effect of variations in the z direction on either total distance, velocity, or angular momentum is trivial.
Hi Willis, thanks for your reply. The thing is, whereas barycentric effects in the x-y plane will get cancelled in 13 days or so over half a solar rotation, the effects in the z-axis range from 44 days for Mercury, to 86 years for Neptune. The range of motion of the sun’s equatorial plane wrt barycentre is around 100,000km, or about 14 times less than the relative motion in the x-y plane, but the longevity of the effects we hypothesise will be so much greater that this deficiency in scale is more than made up for.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:58 pm
No need to argue further as the solar cycles have been argued over and over again with no progress in sight.
Well you are well qualified to judge the progress of the Babcock Leighton dynamo theory I grant you. 🙂
New post is up here:
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/spin-orbit-coupling-between-newton-and-his-grave/
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:58 pm
………..
Hi doc
Perhaps you would like to have a go at the 390 year long dataset:
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/dGMF.htm
see the post
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/07/30/riding-a-pseudocycle/#comment-710221
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 2:01 pm
“The core is not special”
We’re not talking about a special core.
There must be some difference or distinguishing characteristic since you mentioned ‘solar core’ specifically, that makes it special with respect to what is not ‘solar core’.
We’re talking about a gradient of density with transitions from densities where energy moves by radiation only to densities where energy moves by radiation and convection.
Somewhat gibberish. Within a radius of 0.713 from the center, energy flows by radiation, taking about a quarter million years to make the journey to the outer layer, where energy travels by convection, taking about a month to make the final stretch to the surface. Are you talking about, say halfway from the center the place in the radiative solar core from where it will still take a hundred thousand years for the energy to get out? Or what is your point?
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:45 pm
the sunspot cycles have an average period of 10.81 years, but the amplitude varies with a ~120 year period, giving rise to peaks that are in the neighborhood of half the synodic cycle and the Jupiter period.
Well, that’s another way of looking at it, but I think you’re wrong for several reasons.
1) The average solar cycle is 11.07 years not 10.81 as you claim.
2)You have no firm theory or observation for the cause of a ~120 year cycle in the Sun.
3)The biggest and second biggest planets in the solar system have the right frequency of interaction and period to explain the solar cycle. There are several possible mechanisms, and we are much closer to nailing this than the dynamo theorists are.
M.A.Vukcevic says:
August 1, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Perhaps you would like to have a go at the 390 year long dataset:
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/dGMF.htm
It shows a 60-yr cycle and the expected harmonics of that [the peaks on the left] so does not show anything special and is furthermore not related physically to either the sun or the climate as the Earth’s magnetic field [which I presume this is] is not influenced by either, or vice versa. If you look around here, there, and everywhere, you are bound to find something that correlates with anything you imagine.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Somewhat gibberish.
Whatever. We have a well formulated hypothesis which has been discussed with people who understand relativity better then you do. I don’t feel the need to discuss it with someone throwing words like “Gibberish” around.
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 2:22 pm
I don’t feel the need to discuss it with someone throwing words like “Gibberish” around.
Is “boorish” better, then.
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 2:19 pm
1) The average solar cycle is 11.07 years not 10.81 as you claim.
The average length is 11.02 [132.3 months] with a standard deviation of +/-1.28 years and a standard error of the mean [‘error bar’] of +/-0.27 years, so my figure of 10.81 is within the error bar. BTW that figure 10.81 was illustrative only, and picked to mimic the astronomical values. Any figure within the error bar would do.
2)You have no firm theory or observation for the cause of a ~120 year cycle in the Sun.
The length of the good record is too short to nail down that period [Bart found 131 years]. The power spectrum of actual observed daily sunspot numbers since 1820 [from when we have good data] shows the strongest power north of 100 years: http://www.leif.org/research/FFT-Daily-Sunspot-Number.png so this is an observational fact.
3)The biggest and second biggest planets in the solar system have the right frequency of interaction and period to explain the solar cycle. There are several possible mechanisms, and we are much closer to nailing this than the dynamo theorists are.
The mechanisms are generally not physically plausible, and your assessment is just that of an enthusiast.
But it is simpler than that, the sunspot numbers really don’t cluster about a single average length. A good test is to run the analysis separately on the first half and the second half of the series, this is what you get: http://www.leif.org/research/FFT-Daily-Sunspot-Number-1st-2nd-halves.png
For the interval 1820-1916 the length was 10.6 years, while for the 1st half, 1820-2011, the period was 11.3 years. The astronomical cycles would not give this, but the dynamo theory has a natural explanation, namely a variation of the speed of the meridional circulation. Lots of stars have variation of the properties and it is no surprise that the sun has too.
One statement was typed too quickly. Should have been:
For the interval 1820-1916 the length was 11.3 years, while for the 2nd half, 1917-2011, the period was 10.6 years.
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 2:13 pm
Well you are well qualified to judge the progress of the Babcock Leighton dynamo theory I grant you.
That is not argued over and over, it stands firm.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 3:28 pm
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 2:13 pm
Leif says: No progress in sight
Well you are well qualified to judge the progress of the Babcock Leighton dynamo theory I grant you. 🙂
That is not argued over and over, it stands firm.
With you around to sandbag it Leif, I’d expect nothing less. 😉
The mechanisms are generally not physically plausible, and your assessment is just that of an enthusiast.
I’m a qualified mechanical engineer with a better understanding of Newtonian mechanics than you.
Hows the refutation of Wolff and Patrone coming along Leif? Any progress with equations 2a, 2b and 4 yet?
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 3:52 pm
I’m a qualified mechanical engineer with a better understanding of Newtonian mechanics than you.
It doesn’t show. You hide it well.
Hows the refutation of Wolff and Patrone coming along Leif? Any progress with equations 2a, 2b and 4 yet?
Still where I left it. The problem is with equation (2) as your experts in relativity will tell you. Einstein’s equivalence principle tells you “No experiment, no clever exploitation of the laws of physics can tell us whether we are in free space or in a gravitational field. One of the consequences: In a reference frame that is in free fall, the laws of physics are the same as if there were no gravity at all”
If W&P are correct, then the sun can tell that it is in a gravitational field [that of the planets] which would violate the principle.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 2:54 pm
(Responding to various comments/rejonders from tallbloke…)
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 2:19 pm
1) The average solar cycle is 11.07 years not 10.81 as you claim.
The average length is 11.02 [132.3 months] with a standard deviation of +/-1.28 years and a standard error of the mean [‘error bar’] of +/-0.27 years, so my figure of 10.81 is within the error bar. BTW that figure 10.81 was illustrative only, and picked to mimic the astronomical values. Any figure within the error bar would do.
2)You have no firm theory or observation for the cause of a ~120 year cycle in the Sun.
The length of the good record is too short to nail down that period [Bart found 131 years]. The power spectrum of actual observed daily sunspot numbers since 1820 [from when we have good data] shows the strongest power north of 100 years: http://www.leif.org/research/FFT-Daily-Sunspot-Number.png so this is an observational fact.
3)The biggest and second biggest planets in the solar system have the right frequency of interaction and period to explain the solar cycle. There are several possible mechanisms, and we are much closer to nailing this than the dynamo theorists are.
The mechanisms are generally not physically plausible, and your assessment is just that of an enthusiast.
But it is simpler than that, the sunspot numbers really don’t cluster about a single average length. A good test is to run the analysis separately on the first half and the second half of the series, this is what you get: http://www.leif.org/research/FFT-Daily-Sunspot-Number-1st-2nd-halves.png
For the interval 1820-1916 the length was 10.6 years, while for the 1st half, 1820-2011, the period was 11.3 years. The astronomical cycles would not give this, but the dynamo theory has a natural explanation, namely a variation of the speed of the meridional circulation. Lots of stars have variation of the properties and it is no surprise that the sun has too.
OK. So, then would not the best test of any barycentric theory be just that: Rather than try to match a single “perfect” sunspot cycle (that is (falsely) assumed to be fixed during the record), do any barycentric-inspired indices vary with (either in synchronous periods with, or in synchronous periods opposite to) the known varying lengths and intensities of the sunspot cycles, or in any synchronous or resonance pattern with the observed trends in the actual sunspot cycles?
RACookPE1978 says:
August 1, 2011 at 4:37 pm
OK. So, then would not the best test of any barycentric theory be just that […] with the observed trends in the actual sunspot cycles?
The problem is that the actual sunspot cycle is noisy enough and the record short enough that if the test fails, people will just blame it on the noise. I did give an example of a mismatch. A better test is to look at other star systems that have large planets in close-in orbits so their periods are shorter [we don’t need to wait decades] and the effects should be much larger. If these stars do not show synchronizations with their large planets we might assume that the barycentric theories have been refuted. Two such stars come to mind: HD 168443 and HD 74156. See e.g. http://www.leif.org/EOS/1010-0966v1-Exoplanets-Barycenter-Tests.pdf
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 6:58 pm
If these stars do not show synchronizations with their large planets we might assume that the barycentric theories have been refuted.
That being said, it is clear that if the exoplanet is VERY close-in, say less than 0.1 AU there will be very strong tidal effects as those increase by a factor of a thousand if the distance decreases from 1 AU to 0.1 AU. We are not really looking for tidal effects as these are undisputed if the distance is small enough. The[] issue is if there are other mechanisms.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 6:58 pm
If these stars do not show synchronizations with their large planets we might assume that the barycentric theories have been refuted.
An interesting case is that of tau Bootis where a gas planet with something like at least four times the mass of Jupiter orbits at a distance of 0.05 AU in 3.3 days. The star has a magnetic field that reversed polarity in ~2006.5 and again in ~2007.5, suggesting a stellar cycle of about 1 year, much different from the 3.3 days orbital period of its planet. tau Bootis may have synchronized its rotation with the period of the planet by tidal action. This whole field of research in still in its infancy so one cannot draw too wide-ranging conclusions, yet.
Despite being clearly visible in the data and in the periodicity analyses, the cycles are an artifact of the auto-correlation of the datasets.
You decline to come to terms with the fact that Fourier and AR representations of stationary time series are interconvertible. Consult the time series text that I referenced earlier. The cycles are not an “artifact” of the autocorrelation, they are a mathematical consequence of the autocorrelations.
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:19 pm (Edit)
Not sure what to say about that, since Bart doesn’t seem to have put his results online. What do his results say about the size of the current cycle? How well do they fit past cycles?
It has also been known since 1989 that a cycle of 20 years != a cycle of 22 years …
w.
Septic Matthew says:
August 1, 2011 at 9:55 pm
I “decline to come to terms” with something? Please, leave your speculations about my motives and mental state at home. I’m doing what I can, and I’m doing my best.
If cycles are a consequence of the autocorrelation, then all AR datasets should show cycles. A simple Monte Carlo exploration of the AR dataspace shows that many AR datasets show no particular cyclical behavior.
In addition, if you examine longer AR datasets you’ll see that the “cycles” come and go. Again, if the cycles were a result of the autocorrelation, wouldn’t they be constant, or at least generally visible?
In fact, if you look at the code above you’ll see I generated the sequence of ARMA random datasets as one long string, and then chopped it into 158 “year” lengths. So if you look at the cycles in Figure 6, they are all from the same ARMA random dataset, just starting at different points.
So no, the apparent cycles you see are only an artifact of data length and data type. If they weren’t we’d see the same cycle in all of the datasets, because they are just subsets of one long dataset.
Septic, I strongly recommend that you actually play with the data. Generate some high AR negative MA pseudo-temperature datasets and look at them one by one, the code is in the head post. Do Fourier analyses on them. Graph them and consider the graphs.
My conclusion from doing that is that autoregressive datasets are extremely likely to contain spurious “cycles”. Think of it as a drunkard walking down a long road. He wanders to the right of the dotted line, he wanders to the left of the dotted line, he weaves back across to the other lane, and then drifts back over to the left again …
Now, you’d have to say that would be a common kind of drunkard’s walk. But notice that he’s done two complete cycles … so if you did a Fourier or a Periodicity analysis of his walk, it would definitely show cycles … but are those cycles something deeply fundamental to the system?
Well … no. If we watch him for a while longer, he drifts to the right, and sort of wanders back and forth over there for a while, then he fixates on a streetlamp and crosses to the other side of the road and stays there for a while. The apparent cycles from before disappear, and a new, much slower and longer term apparent cycle takes its place.
But none of these are real cycles. They are a result of 1) the shortness of the record combined with 2) the fact that a random path will cross and recross its trend line, giving the appearance of cycles.
Thanks for your interest,
w.
Willis Eschenbach says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:04 pm
Geoff Sharp says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:15 am
Willis is losing a lot of creditability here. So many ill founded attacks on those that disagree with the basic fabric of this thread. There seems to be a trend lately that WUWT is promoting Luke Warmer resident guest authors on a permanent basis.
——————————-
Geoff, the basic fabric of this thread is that a) there is no significant 20 year cycle in the temperature data, b) there is no significant 60 year cycle in the solar data, and c) the 60-year cycle in the temperature data stands a very good chance of being an artifact.
Willis, I have clearly shown the 60 year cycle in the velocity record. I have given examples of how a background trend can be the cornerstone of a particular line of research, I have clearly shown why the 60 year cycle doesn’t show up in Fourier type analysis but you insist on only using the Fourier method to push “what looks like an agenda” against the Loehle and Scafetta paper. If evidence is presented and then ignored the question is asked why. For me that is a loss of credibility.
A horse can be led to water but you can’t make it drink.
<i<How about you begin by answering my specific questions, like, what kind of an equation makes a “trident” headed wave? Or why don’t you begin by demonstrating exactly how such a wave might escape Fourier analysis? Or you could show the mathematical methods that you use to isolate trident headed waves from normal waves, as I requested.
It would be very difficult to write an equation that would capture the variability of the trident head phenomenon. It is visible via my annotations on Leifs solar distance charts but the outcome is reliant on planet positions that vary every time. Not everything in science fits into an equation or is visible via Fourier analysis. Have a good look at my annotations and it should become clear. The annotations are the forks in the trident example.
http://tinyurl.com/2dg9u22/images/Solar-Activity-vs.Barycenter-Distance-AD.png
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 12:16 pm
Geoff Sharp says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:46 am
But I am still waiting for your comprehensive analysis on the pie we are sharing
——————–
Bake the pie first: annotate the BC part, mark grand minima, so we don’t have to haggle over those. Then I’ll be happy to look at the pie.
I dont know why you are playing these funny games but I can see that I will ultimately be wasting my time. I don’t think it would matter what evidence I provide you, the end result would be the same.
You did not stipulate that you wanted the grand minima marked, but in essence it is not required. This is the part you are missing, the sun slows down on a quasi 172 year period almost every time, the only difference is the magnitude of that slowdown. This is determined by the planet angles which I have annotated via color coded dots on your plot.
I will get around to the BC record in time, but I have had several nights with little sleep so you will have to wait.
RACookPE1978 says:
August 1, 2011 at 4:37 pm
do any barycentric-inspired indices vary with (either in synchronous periods with, or in synchronous periods opposite to) the known varying lengths and intensities of the sunspot cycles, or in any synchronous or resonance pattern with the observed trends in the actual sunspot cycles?
Yes. Charvatova’s observations on the synchronisation of ‘harmonious and disharmoniuous’ periods of solar -barycenrtric motion WRT cold and warm phases in climate and periods of generally low and high solar cycles for example.
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/06/10/interview-with-ivanka-charvatova-is-climate-change-caused-by-solar-inertial-motion/
Willis Eschenbach says:
August 1, 2011 at 10:51 pm
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:19 pm
Willis Eschenbach says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:04 pm
Heck, there’s not even an apparent connection between barycentric cycles (the main one being at ~19.86 years) and sunspot cycles (~ 22 years).
Ah, yes there is. 19.86 years (Jupiter – Saturn synodic cycle) is one of the periods involved in the solar cycle period. the other is 2x the Jupiter orbital period.
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/bart-modeling-the-historical-sunspot-record-from-planetary-periods/
Not sure what to say about that, since Bart doesn’t seem to have put his results online. What do his results say about the size of the current cycle? How well do they fit past cycles?
The result is published in the article I linked at figure 3. Current solar cycle looks very low, as do the next two. However, it is a work in progress with a planned path of improvement.
It has also been known since 1989 that a cycle of 20 years != a cycle of 22 years …
Well for a first approximation you should average the two periods involved: 19.86 years and 23.72 years. This gives the average Hale cycle length pretty closely.The Hale cycle varies between ~18-~27 years. As Leif is fond of saying, the sun is a messy place. So is Earth’s climate, so I wouldn’t expect to see nice neat matches. However, because the orbital interactions of most of the planets in the solar system are synchronised one way and another, we can also use another cycles analysis method to predict solar cycle length.
The conjunction cycle of Jupiter, Earth and Venus also works out on average to be the average solar cycle length. I discovered that by constructing a simple index of the alignment strengths along the Parker spiral, (I modified Roy Martin’s index) and modulating the result with Leif’s reconstruction of solar windspeed, I got a very good match between the JEV cycle and solar cycle length. You can see the result here:
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/rotation-solar-windspeed-adjusted.png
(ignore the sc24 ‘prediction’ on that plot, it’s Roy’s from his earlier effort)
We think it likely more than one of the fundamental forces is involved, so we are testing both gravitational and electromagnetic possibilities.
So JEV considered electromagnetically (Parker spiral alignment, solar windspeed adjusted) gives close timing predictions, and the Jupiter-Saturn model gives good solar cycle amplitude prediction (to be improved with further modulating algorithms related to Uranus and (particularly) Neptune).
I understand your desire to see everything about methods published online, but as this is still under development, and we have a lot of time and effort invested, we’re being a little coy at the moment. Once we are happy with what we’ve achieved, we’ll publish, and issue all necessary info for replication in the SI.
Best to you
tb
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 1, 2011 at 2:54 pm
tallbloke says:
August 1, 2011 at 2:19 pm
2)You have no firm theory or observation for the cause of a ~120 year cycle in the Sun.
The power spectrum of actual observed daily sunspot numbers since 1820 [from when we have good data] shows the strongest power north of 100 years: http://www.leif.org/research/FFT-Daily-Sunspot-Number.png so this is an observational fact.
You would expect the amplitude of the cycle representing the beat interaction period of the principal periods (19.86 and 23.72 years) to be larger than the signals from the principals, which are 19.86 and 23.72 years, since at the peak they are additive and at the base they cancel. So this is likely where the long period cycle seen in the obs comes from. We get 131 years, you get 121. Both are within the error bounds.
And you still don’t have any firm theory or observation on the cause of your proposed 121 year principal solar cycle either. We have two thunking great big planets (Jupiter and Saturn) exhibiting just the right frequencies to explain observations (peaks in the spectral analysis at 9.93 years(j-S synodic/2) and 11.86 years (J orbital) and 10.8 (sideband you claim as principal) and ~121 years (beat frequency you claim as other principal) . We also have two viable mechanisms, one of them published in the peer reviewed literature. And it’s a prestigious journal:
Solar Phys (2010) 266: 227–246
DOI 10.1007/s11207-010-9628-y
A New Way that Planets Can Affect the Sun
Charles L. Wolff · Paul N. Patrone
Received: 5 May 2010 / Accepted: 16 August 2010 / Published online: 18 September 2010