Via Slashdot:
“On Monday, the Obama administration announced the next steps that the US will take to build its 21st century electric grid, and Information Technology is expected to play a big part in the plans. The White House hosted a 90-minute media event called ‘Building the 21st Century Electric Grid’ and is releasing a new report on what it will take for lawmakers and the private sector to come together to solve this aspect of the energy challenge.”
Here’s more from the official White House statement:
“Along with the announcement of new public and private initiatives aimed at building a smarter, expanded grid and empowering consumers, the Cabinet-level National Science and Technology Council (NSTC) will release a new report: ‘A Policy Framework for the 21st Century Grid.’ This policy framework charts a collaborative path forward for applying digital information or ’smart grid’ technologies to the nation’s electricity infrastructure to facilitate the integration of renewable sources of power into the grid; help accommodate the growing number of electric vehicles; help avoid blackouts and restore power quicker when outages occur; and reduce the need for new power plants.”
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Doug Badgero says:
June 14, 2011 at 6:41 pm
Smart grid technologies can provide some advantages from better fault identification to load management options.
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One of the few bright spots that smart grid brought us was Outage Management. As far as load management, the current thrust is still “Demand Response”, which is code for shutting down individual use during peak hours.
David Hemmann says:
June 14, 2011 at 3:02 pm
from Hemmann to James Sexton
You and I share more than my words may have conveyed also.
Anyway, i do appreciate your time in this discussion, I know I came away more aware of factors. My comments were meant in just the same way.
Thanks
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And you have my thanks. Too often conversations like this devolve into unseemly tirades. I appreciate your perspective, calm demeanor and affording me opportunities to respond to your various points.
James
Just to throw an extra pint of bat’s blood into the cauldron–let us all remember that Spain has demonstrated that for every “green job” created, 2.2 other jobs were destroyed. See the following from Bloomberg:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a2PHwqAs7BS0
“ShrNfr says:
June 14, 2011 at 6:58 am”
I have a feeling that when smart grids, smart meters and smart appliances become more widespread they will become mandatory and going “off grid” will be out-lawed. I foresee that these grids/meters/appliances will become mandatory along with rationing and any deviation will result in appliances being turned off and penalties being issued. We already have examples of this deviation/penalty based system – speed cameras and parking meters.
I predict a burgeoning industry in bootleg jumpers. You heard it here first.
“Why, no officer, those are not my 240V cables — I was just holding them for a friend, I swear.”
Join The War on Power-Junkies.
Interesting discussion. I also appreciate the input of James Sexton. It helps to identify the terminology of spin and move past that spin to practical reality.
Now I am just waiting for someone to build that portable fusion device that will power my car, and when I return from my journey that same portable power pack will have the capability of powering, heating and cooling my house, where I can be comfortable relaxed and free of any green guilt trip, knowing the same device is capable of doing the same for some other human beings anywhere in the world that needs the same freedom and comfort I would then have,and off the grid too!!
Let science free the mind and create these opportunities.
ROTFLMAO! Thanks, I needed that!
Brilliant! I agree. The Beltway could be used as a template. Calling John Carpenter and Kurt Russell, time for part three? Escape from D.C.!
Yes. The *only* reason for massive federal involvement would be in the area of national security, and needless to say this should have been started after 2001 (and even this alone would be damned expensive), but NOT a power distribution re-design with countless *new* failure vectors and weak links. When it comes to the so-called national grid, the very next word that follows should be hardening. Another word old-timers might suggest is TEMPEST.
Instead, President Dumbo and his czars will promote using WI-FI consumer electronics, and farming out the systems to Sony or Samsung. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next brilliant idea is to dismantle the POTS networks and sell the copper. I swear, instead of improving our lives (as they did for many years), such breakthroughs as super dense IC’s, microscopic PCB traces, and surface mount electronics will become the death of us. It’s a brave new world.
We have a winner! This is a backdoor method to a state bailout. Instead of life support for patient California, it should be unplugged from the machines and allowed to wither away and die. The more I think about it, maybe we could try a system of no national grid. Let each state generate its own power, and to the ones that cannot meet their needs, too bad! That would be wonderfully Darwinian. (No Sarcasm).
Are you at all familiar with the term “reaching the the point of diminishing returns”?
This would be one of those occasions where that term is applicable; the last 6.9% being uneconomical to ‘recover’.
BTW, what’s this “From Hemmann” business? It looks very strange …
.
To Jim
Sorry if I’m not familiar with this blogs thread etiquette. nothing but clarity was intended.
Yes, I am familiar with thre law of diminishing returns and as Sexton pointed out, media selection would be the only real way to up efficiency versus resistance. you can’t fight physics. My ongoing broader point was that brown outs, black out and yearly storm outages continue to diminish the grid. Obama’s plan has been attacked as “big brother” over reach, That’s a political argument based upon assumption just like the AGW’s fear mongering. I was merely trying to point out neither argument is worthy of real discussion if physical limitation within our system are not improved according to a realistic engineering analysis.
I’m fairly sure that 6.9% analysis does not include the millions of people who lose power annually because lines are brought down by the same storms we have seen for decades. A little incremental improvement should not be a political issue, it should be common sense like filling pot holes in interstates.
Thanks
Smart Grid is essential to making the myriad claims that renewables can provide (almost) all of the USA electric usage realistic. All such claims rely on drastic reductions in predicted peak demand in the USA and the UK. The Smart Grid is merely a more sophisticatedand very expensive replacement of prior demand control by 2-way radio to shut-down AC, water heaters, heat pumps, etc. that have been used for about 20 years. Those were voluntary both to the utilities and to their consumers. Smart Grid is (effectively) mandated.
Incidently, would also like to thank Mr. Sexton for his comments. I’m the “desgnated” Power EE for 7-8 small muny electric systems. We have the same concerns as the smaller RECC’s. I agree with his stated points and concerns.
“. . . empowering consumers . . .”
I doubt it. It will, however, empower government — which is part of the “hope and change” agenda of Pres. Obama.
I think we all intuitively know that this new wonderful grid will cause electiric rates to increase. This wonderful smart grid will not benefit the consumer it will benefit the utilities and the government in the form of new taxes. We may indeed need to improve the natures power grid. We may indeed need to find someway to limit power consumption at peak periods. The problems are real. But don’t piss on our leg and tell us it’s raining. The objective is more money from the consumer. Simple as that!
ferd berple says @ur momisugly June 14, 2011 at 12:48 pm”. Simply manufacturing the car creates as much CO2 as a lifetime of driving.”
So are you saying never buy a new car?
REPLY: Since he brought up cars, a better question is: why is MR still driving an old CO2 belching MG with no pollution controls if he’s so concerned about the planet? – Anthony
Moderate Republican says:
June 15, 2011 at 5:42 pm
ferd berple says @ur momisugly June 14, 2011 at 12:48 pm”. Simply manufacturing the car creates as much CO2 as a lifetime of driving.”
So are you saying never buy a new car?
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Obviously, the continued manufacturing of cars are necessary to replace the ones that are irreparable. Not long ago, we had a thriving used car market, that wouldn’t necessitate the manufacturing of so many more. However, someone had an insidiously vapid idea that in order to reduce carbon emissions and keep afloat failed companies, we had to emit more carbon, it had the additional effect of seriously damaging the fiscal viability of the working poor of this nation. The “cash for clunkers program”.
In the midst of an economic downturn, our policies significantly harmed the lower working class segment of our society by raising the bottom price of every used car in this nation. It further diminished supplies of used cars exacerbating the situation. Once again, our working poor were forced to buy something on credit in which many had no reasonable chance to pay off and defaulted on many more loans.
In the end, our working poor were once again sacrificed in order to float companies that had made very poor business decisions and should have been allowed to die in order for a newer and better industry to emerge. Instead, we reinforced the idea that regardless of the failed business practices of some industries,(and executives) we, as a nation will still support their failed ways.
Moderate Republican says:
June 15, 2011 at 5:42 pm
…………
REPLY: Since he brought up cars, a better question is: why is MR still driving an old CO2 belchjing MG with no pollution controls if he’s so concerned about the planet? – Anthony
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Now Anthony, you know MR can offset his CO2 by paying penance or doing something else noble. For instance, brother Al gets a pass, because of all the great work he does spreading the word. So too then, does this apply to our new found friend MR. I think he’s paying penance right now by spreading the word to the ignorant masses. Maybe its kinda like the proselyting another religion does? (No offense to any religions, I’m just drawing parallels to various belief systems!)
I get electricity from Progress Energy in the Tampa, Florida area. They installed a gadget near the meter that they can use to cut my electricity slightly in times of peak demand. But they never shut it off completely. I have never noticed any ill effects.
B. CH.E. says:
June 15, 2011 at 7:51 pm
I get electricity from Progress Energy in the Tampa, Florida area. They installed a gadget near the meter that they can use to cut my electricity slightly in times of peak demand. But they never shut it off completely. I have never noticed any ill effects.
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B. CH. E.,
Can you provide more details about this?
Hmmmm, yet, I bet. If there is any axiomatic statement about government it is that power granted is rarely returned, and almost universally abused.
Mark
From James Sexton on June 15, 2011 at 8:14 pm:
Progress Energy – Florida home page:
https://www.progress-energy.com/florida/home/index.page
It’s their “EnergyWise Home” program:
https://www.progress-energy.com/florida/home/save-energy-money/energy-efficiency-improvements/energy-wise/index.page?
Enroll in the annual plan, let them control everything currently listed in the program (heating, cooling, water heater, pool pump) and you could save, at maximum, a whopping $147 a year, American dollars, in credits, which start accumulating once you’ve used up the initial 600kWh a month. Heating and cooling can be shut down for 16.5 of every 30 minutes during peak periods, while water heater, pool pump, and the backup heating strips for a heat pump may be off for 300 straight minutes. Yeah, that really sounds worthwhile to the consumer. After all, why would people even need hot water between 6-11 AM or 6-10 PM winter, 1-10 PM summer?
There’s an easy way to cut down on long-distance, HV-line losses. Just up the voltage. American Electric Power has 765 kV lines strung around its system (the highest voltage of other US utilities is ~500 kV). Uping the voltage to 1500 kV would cut the current & resultant line losses.
Of course the nanny-state/media, in its control/scare-the-masses strategy, says EM fields are “dangerous” & so higher voltage is bad, bad, bad. Those sizzling HV lines poison the air.
kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
June 15, 2011 at 11:52 pm
From James Sexton on June 15, 2011 at 8:14 pm:
Can you provide more details about this?
Progress Energy – Florida home page:
https://www.progress-energy.com/florida/home/index.page
It’s their “EnergyWise Home” program: ……….
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Thanks Kadaka, that’s what I was looking for. I’m wondering now about how typical B. CH. E.’s home life is. It isn’t my business, of course, but reading the details of the program, I doubt that I would be part of that without “noticing”. For instance, when I get home from work, especially during the summer, I may wish to take a hot shower, and I’m really sure I’d want a cool home to come to. As would my wife if she decides to take a job. Further, neither one of us would want to wait until past peak hours to try and do our laundry.
$147 seems pretty cheap to give up some simple freedoms and liberties to a power company.
In my dining room, I have a table with six chairs. Most days, only my wife and I eat there but occasionally we have dinner guests. If we were to change to a “smart grid” concept, we could retire four of the chairs and hire a servant. Whenever we had guests, the servant could move the two chairs around the table to seat the two people who appeared to him to currently be expressing the most appropriate political views. The other people could stand to eat. I fear, however, that the servant would eventually cost more than four chairs and that if he ever called in sick, we might have to cancel our dinner plans.
A couple of points. First, I’ve seen some great comments on this thread, especially those of James Sexton.
About a Smart Grid that arbitrarily turns off the heat in your house during peak demand in the Winter. Yes, it could kill some elderly people. Here’s a less obvious concern. Depending on how often these manufactured shortages occur, and for how long, they could contribute to toxic mold infestations. It’s possible that more energy would be expended to remediate the mold problems than would be ‘saved’ by reducing energy consumption during periods of peak demand during the Winter.