Visualizing the "Greenhouse Effect" – Light and Heat

Guest Post by Ira Glickstein

Solar “light” radiation in = Earth “heat” radiation to Space out! That’s old news to those of us who understand all energy is fungible (may be converted to different forms of energy) and energy/mass is conserved (cannot be created nor destroyed).

My Visualizing series [Physical Analogy, Atmospheric Windows, Emission Spectra, and Molecules/Photons] has garnered almost 2000 comments, mostly positive. I’ve learned a lot from WUWT readers who know more than I do. However, some commenters seem to have been taken in by scientific-sounding objections to the basic science behind the Atmospheric “Greenhouse Effect”. Their objections seemed to add more heat than light to the discussion. This posting is designed to get back to basics and perhaps transform our heated arguments into more enlightened understanding :^)

Solar "light" energy in is equal to Earth "heat" energy out.
[Click on image for larger version]

As I’ve mentioned before, during my long career as a system engineer I’ve worked with many talented mathematical analysts who always provided precise results, mostly correct, but some precisely wrong, usually due to mistaken assumptions. I got into the habit of doing a “back of the envelope” calculation of my own as a “sanity check” on their results. If their results matched within reasonable limits, I accepted them. If not, I investigated further. In those days my analysis was really done using a slide rule and scrap paper, but I now use spreadsheets.

The graphic above is based on an excellent spreadsheet from http://serc.carleton.edu/files/introgeo/models/mathematical/examples/XLPlanck.xls. It uses Planck’s Law to calculate the black body radiation spectrum from the Sun, as observed at the top of the Earth’s Atmosphere. It also may be used to calculate the radiation spectrum from the Earth System (Atmosphere and Surface, see below for explanation) at any assumed temperature. (I will refer to this spreadsheet as “Carleton” in this posting.)

I modified the Carleton spreadsheet to compute the mean Solar radiation per square meter absorbed by the Earth System, which turns out to be 240 Watts/m^2. I then used the spreadsheet to determine the effective mean temperature of the Earth System that would emit an equal amount of energy to Space, and that turned out to be 255 Kelvins (-18ºC which is 1ºF).

Since the mean temperature at the surface of the Earth is 288 Kelvins (+15ºC which is 59ºF), that leaves 33 Kelvins (33ºC which is 58ºF) to be accounted for. Guess how we acount for it?

The yellow curve (above left) shows that Solar radiation is in a tall, narrow “shortwave” range, from about 0.1μm (microns, or millionths of a meter) to about 4μm, which we call ultra-violet, visual, and near-infrared. The vertical axis is Intensity of the radiation, measured in Watts/m^2/μm, and the horizontal axis is Wavelength, measured in μm. If you divide the area under the yellow curve into vertical strips, and add up the total area, you get 240 Watts/m^2.

Since we humans sense the visual portion of this radiation as “light”, that is the name we give it, and that has led to the false assumption that it contains no “heat” (or “thermal”) energy.

The violet curve (above right) shows that, assuming a mean temperature of 255 K, Earth System radiation to Space is in a squat, wide “longwave” range, from about 5μm to beyond 40μm, which we call mid- and far-infrared. If you divide the area under the violet curve into vertical strips, and add up the total area, you get the same 240 Watts/m^2 as is under the yellow curve.

DETAILED EXPLANATION

Left: Actual Solar radiation spectrum observed at top of Atmosphere, compared to black body model. Right: Black body Earth System radiation spectrum out to Space.

The graph on the left shows the actual observed Solar radiation spectrum (in red) as measured at the top of the Atmosphere. It is superimposed on a black body model (in blue) showing very good correlation. Thus, while the Sun is not exactly a black body, it is OK to assume it is for this type of “sanity check” exercise.

If you calculate the area under the curve you get about 1366 Watts/m^2. That means that a square meter of perfect black body material, held perpendicular to the Sun, would absorb 1366 Watts.

However, the Earth is not a perfect black body, neither is it a flat surface perpendicular to the Sun! So, to plot the yellow curve at the top of this posting, I had to adjust that value accordingly. There are two adjustments:

  • The Earth may be approximated as a sphere, with the Sun shining on only half of it at any given time. The adjustment factor for this correction is 0.25.
  • The albedo (reflectiveness) of the Earth system, primarily clouds and light-colored areas on the Surface such as ice, causes some of the Solar radiation to be reflected back out to Space without contributing any energy to the Earth System. The adjustment factor for this correction is 0.7.

After applying these adjustments, the net Solar energy absorbed by the Earth System is 240 Watts/m^2.

The graph on the right shows the black body model for an Earth System at a mean temperature of 255 K, a temperature that results in the same 240 Watts/m^2 being emitted out to Space.

Of course, the Earth System is not a perfect black body, as shown by the graph in the upper panel of the illustration below, which plots actual observations from 20 km looking down. (Adapted from Grant Petty, A First Course in Atmospheric Radiation, Figure 8.2, http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad/Excerpts/index.html.)

The actual measured radiation is the dark squiggly curve. Note that it jigs and jags up and down between the topmost dashed curve, which is the black body spectrum for a temperature of 270 K and a lower dashed curve which is the black body spectrum for 230 K. This data was taken over the Arctic, most likely during the daytime. The Petty book also has a graph looking down from over the Tropical Pacific which ranges from 300 K down to 210 K. Observations will vary by tens of degrees from day to night, summer to winter, and Tropical to Polar.

However, it is clear that my result, based on matching 240 Watts/m^2, is within a reasonable range of the true mean temperature of the Earth System as viewed from Space.

NOTE ABOUT THE ABOVE ILLUSTRATION

WUWT readers will notice some apparent inconsistencies in the graphs above. The top and bottom panels, from Petty, peak at 15μm to 20μm, while the purple, blue, and black curves in the middle panel, and the Earth System curves from the Carleton spreadsheet I used (see above) peak in the 9μm to 11μm range. Also, the Petty black body curves peak at a “Radiance” around 100 mW/m^2/sr cm^-1 while the black body curves from Carleton peak at an “Intensity” of around 14 W/m^2/μm. Furthermore, if you look closely at the Petty curves, the labels on the black body curves are mirror image! What is going on?

Well, I know some of the reasons, but not all. (I hope commenters who are more fluent in this than I am will confirm my explanations and provide more information about the differences between “Radiance” and “Intensity”.) I have Googled and Wikied the Internet and am still somewhat confused. Here is what I know:

  • The horizontal axis in Petty’s plots are what he calls “Wavenumber”, increasing from left to right, which is the number of waves that fit into a cm (centimeter, one hundredth of a meter).
  • This is proportional to the frequency of the radiation, and the frequency is the inverse of the wavelength. Thus, his plots are the mirror image of plots based on wavelength increasing from left to right.
  • The spreadsheet I used, and my previous experience with visual, and near-, mid-, and far-IR as used in military systems, always uses wavelength increasing from left to right.
  • So, when I constructed the above illustration, I reversed Petty’s curves, which explains why the labels on the black body curves are mirror image.
  • Fortunately, Petty also included a wavelength legend, which I faithfully reproduced, in non-mirror image, at the top of each plot.

But, that still does not explain why the Petty black body curves peak at a longer wavelength than the Carleton spreadsheet and other graphics on the Internet. I tried to reproduce Petty’s blackbody curves by multiplying the Carleton values by the wavelength (μm) and that did not move the peak to the right enough. So, I multiplied by the wavelength again (μm^2) and, voila, the peaks agreed! (I hope some WUWT reader will explain why the Petty graphs have this perverse effect. advTHANKSance!)

ANSWERING THE OBJECTIONS TO BASIC ATMOSPHERIC “GREENHOUSE EFFECT” SCIENCE

First of all, let me be clear where I am coming from. I’m a Lukewarmer-Skeptic who accepts that H2O, CO2 and other so-called “greenhouse gases” in the Atmosphere do cause the mean temperature of the Earth Surface and Atmosphere to be higher than they would be if everything was the same (Solar radiation, Earth System Albedo, …) but the Atmosphere was pure nitrogen. The main scientific question for me, is how much does the increase in human-caused CO2 and human-caused albedo reduction increase the mean temperature above what it would be with natural cycles and processes? My answer is “not much”, because perhaps 0.1ºC to 0.2ºC of the supposed 0.8ºC increase since 1880 is due to human activities. The rest is due to natural cycles and processes over which we humans have no control. The main public policy question for me, is how much should we (society) do about it? Again, my answer is “not much”, because the effect is small and a limited increase in temperatures and CO2 may turn out to have a net benefit.

So, my motivation for this Visualizing series is not to add to the Alarmist “the sky is falling” panic, but rather to help my fellow Skeptics avoid the natural temptation to fall into an “equal and opposite” falsehood, which some of those on my side, who I call “Disbelievers”, do when they fail to acknowledge the basic facts of the role of H2O and CO2 and other gases in helping to keep temperatures in a livable range.

Objection #1: Visual and near-visual radiation is merely “light” which lacks the “quality” or “oomph” to impart warmth to objects upon which it happens to fall.

Answer #1: A NASA webpage targeted at children is sometimes cited because they say the near-IR beam from a TV remote control is not warm to the touch. Of course, that is not because it is near-visual radiation, but rather because it is very low power. All energy is fungible, and can be changed from one form to another. Thus, the 240 Watts/m^2 of visible and near-visible Solar energy that reaches and is absorbed by the Earth System, has the effect of warming the Earth System exactly as much as an equal number of Watts/m^2 of “thermal” mid- and far-IR radiation.

Objection #2: The Atmosphere, which is cooler than the Earth Surface, cannot warm the Earth Surface.

Answer #2: The Second law of Thermodynamics is often cited as the source of this falsehood. The correct interpretation is that the Second Law refers to net warming, which can only pass from the warmer to the cooler object. The back-radiation from the Atmosphere to the Earth Surface has been measured (see lower panel in the above illustration). All matter above absolute zero emits radiation and, once emitted, that radiation does not know if it is travelling from a warmer to a cooler surface or vice-versa. Once it arrives it will either be reflected or absorbed, according to its wavelength and the characteristics of the material it happens to impact.

Objection #3: The Atmospheric “Greenhouse Effect” is fictional. A glass greenhouse works mainly by preventing or reducing convection and the Atmosphere does not work that way at all.

Answer #3: I always try to put “scare quotes” around the word “greenhouse” unless referring to the glass variety because the term is misleading. Yes, a glass greenhouse works by restricting convection, and the fact that glass passes shortwave radiation and not longwave makes only a minor contribution. Thus, I agree it is unfortunate that the established term for the Atmospheric warming effect is a bit of a misnomer. However, we are stuck with it. But, enough of semantics. Notice that the Earth System mean temperature I had to use to provide 240 Watts/m^2 of radiation to Space to balance the input absorbed from by the Earth System from the Sun was 255 K. However, the actual mean temperature at the Surface is closer to 288 K. How to explain the extra 33 K (33ºC or 58ºF)? The only rational explanation is the back-radiation from the Atmosphere to the Surface.

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May 22, 2011 8:00 pm

R Stevenson says:
May 22, 2011 at 10:17 am
Phil says:
‘ False because you’re wrong about where in the energy spectrum CO2 absorbs.’
It is apparent from whatyou say that you are not familiar with ‘Wien’s law of displacement’ judging by your comment that the spectral band from 12 to 18 microns includes the peak emission of the Earth’s emission spectrum.

On the contrary I am very familiar with all forms of Wien’s Law, I suggest you reread my comment, to help you I’ve highlighted the pertinent part:
“False because you’re wrong about where in the energy spectrum CO2 absorbs.
Recourse to Wien’s law shows that a wavelength of maximal emission λ_max of 15μm yields a temperature of minus 80C; whilst 15C gives a maximal emission λ_max of 10μm.
Frankly the wavelength of maximum emission doesn’t mean anything, we’re concerned with what’s happening to the energy so it’s the frequency or wavenumber form that’s relevant as I told you before.
CO2 absorbs infrared emissions from the Earth’s surface only minimally in the range 7 to 13μm and it is within this range where the greatest proportion of radiation emitted by the Earth is found.
No it isn’t, it accounts for about one third of the energy emitted at 288K. (45W/m^2/sr vs 124W/m^2/sr)

May 22, 2011 8:42 pm

R Stevenson says:
May 22, 2011 at 8:31 am
Heat is transferred by conduction, convection and radiation and heat losses are often computed using a combined convection and radiation coefficient hc + hr. Heat loss:
Q = (hc+hr)*A*deltaT

No way, qr= fn((T+Δ)^4-T^4)

May 22, 2011 9:33 pm

R Stevenson says:
May 22, 2011 at 9:07 am
This is based on the increase in CO2 concentration needed to make the gas as effective as water vapour in absorbing LWIR ie based on equivalence:
For a product term PwL of 0.0231*(4*3.281) ft.atm a water vapour absorptivity of o.2 absorbs 84Wm-2 of land LWIR in 4m.
The equivalent for CO2 requires a product term PcL of 0.0004*900*(4*3.281) ft.atm giving a CO2 absorptivity of 0.2 absorbing 84Wm-2 of land LWIR in 4m.
NB a partial pressure of o.ooo4*900 atm is 380ppm *900.

Where do you get your value of 0.2 emissivity from, what range of wavenumber is it for, why haven’t you accounted for the variation of energy over the wavenumber range or the different absorption bands of H2O and CO2?

May 23, 2011 4:42 am

wayne says:
May 22, 2011 at 12:38 pm
Ira, I apologize. didn’t mean to use to strong of words and your example of the integration using 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 and so on … was basically correct, but it has become apparent that this only applies to the vertical movement, the vertical axis of radiation transfer, where you also have two more horizontal axises involved in three dimensions. So, the 390 Wm-2 up and down should always be spoken properly as 130 Wm-2 going up and down just as you described it. I just thought you should have pointed out that only one-third of the radiation participates in this vertical dance. That was my only point. I’ll try to not get so emotional when seeing misleading expalnations are made.

This is a misunderstanding, it isn’t an ‘either/or’ situation, the photons have a component in each of the three directions. Every one has a component in the vertical direction which may be up or down.

Steve
May 23, 2011 9:15 am

jae says: “THAT, folks, is pure baloney, because it is suggesting that a cold atmosphere (about 5C average) can warm a warmer surface which is really, really bad physics (yeah, yeah, there are still some folks out there that believe that, but they will eventually learn….).”
Again, a misrepresentation of the explanation. No one is proposing that the colder atmosphere warms the surface. It emits energy towards the surface, which lowers the rate of cooling of the (warmer) surface.
Please explain how I could raise the temperature of that cold atmosphere to 7C average (still much colder than the surface) in such a way that it would not lead to a rise in average surface temperature. Please explain how I could exchange a percentage of the molecules in the atmosphere that don’t absorb outgoing surface radiation for molecules that do absorb outgoing surface radiation without raising the temperature of the atmosphere.
“The diagram is correct ONLY if the surface is maintained at 15 C by phenomenon other than some impossible backradiation magic. Which, of course, shows that the GHE theory is nonsense.”
The fact that you have been unable to respond to the above, and insist on (back) radiation being “magic”, shows that your thought process is nonsense.

Robert Stevenson
May 23, 2011 12:27 pm

Phil says:
‘Where do you get your value of 0.2 emissivity from, what range of wavenumber is it for, why haven’t you accounted for the variation of energy over the wavenumber range or the different absorption bands of H2O and CO2?’
The precise method of calculating the effective absorptivity or emissivity for a gas body of finite dimensions is quite complex but for engineering calculations an approximate method developed by Hottel (1) yields results of satisfactory accuracy.
(1)Trans. Am. Inst. Chem. Engrs. 31, 517-549 (1935)

Robert Stevenson
May 23, 2011 12:36 pm

Phil says:
Heat loss:
Q = (hc+hr)*A*deltaT
No way, qr= fn((T+Δ)^4-T^4)
Will reply fully manana I am surprised you are not familiar with this notation for combined convection and radiation heat loss coefficient from horizontal and vertical surfaces. Reflects on modern technical education methods.

wayne
May 23, 2011 2:09 pm

“Phil. says:
May 23, 2011 at 4:42 am
This is a misunderstanding, it isn’t an ‘either/or’ situation, the photons have a component in each of the three directions. Every one has a component in the vertical direction which may be up or down.”
No misunderstanding, and the up-down component is 1/3. But you are right, the chances of it ever being dead horizontal with a vertical component of zero is astronomically tiny, same if it were vertical axis aligned. You are also right, it is never an either/or situation and should not be spoken as if it is. All components need to be mentioned and their influence accounted for.

May 23, 2011 3:43 pm

Robert Stevenson says:
May 23, 2011 at 12:36 pm
Phil says:
Heat loss:
Q = (hc+hr)*A*deltaT
No way, qr= fn((T+Δ)^4-T^4)
Will reply fully manana I am surprised you are not familiar with this notation for combined convection and radiation heat loss coefficient from horizontal and vertical surfaces. Reflects on modern technical education methods.

It does indeed, it’s flat out wrong! If they’re teaching junk like this these days it does reflect poorly on modern education.

Joel Shore
May 23, 2011 7:13 pm

jae says:

The diagram is correct ONLY if the surface is maintained at 15 C by phenomenon other than some impossible backradiation magic.

You are the one who believes in magic, not us. You believe that there exists some magical version of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics that prevents colder objects from radiating toward warmer objects…or the warmer objects from absorbing the radiation…or this absorbed radiation from affecting the energy balance, or some other total nonsense that violates the laws of physics.
You also seem to believe that invoking the lapse rate or the ideal gas law or gravity or some magical combination of them allows one to violate conservation of energy.
It is really embarrassing that you continue to argue such complete and utter nonsense. If I ever want to convince any of my physicist colleagues how ignorant skeptics are of actual science, all that I have to do is show them the sort of nonsense you argue in this thread. (Admittedly, that is unfair to the skeptics like Ira and Willis who at least try to fight against this sort of clear nonsense in violation of basic laws of physics.)

Robert Stevenson
May 24, 2011 2:28 am

Phil. says:
May 23, 2011 at 3:43 pm
Robert Stevenson says:
May 23, 2011 at 12:36 pm
Phil says:
Heat loss:
Q = (hc+hr)*A*deltaT (1)
No way, qr= fn((T+Δ)^4-T^4)
Let me enlighten you Phil in (1) above
hc=0.3*(T1-T2)^0.25
hr=[0.173*0.8[(T1/100)^4-(T2/100)^4]]/(T1-T2)
You add the two together to give a combined convection and radiation coefficient for a combined loss in (1) where deltaT of course is T1-T2. Im surprised you have not seen this before – so you’ve learned something new today

Robert Stevenson
May 24, 2011 2:37 am

Robert Stevenson says:
May 23, 2011 at 12:27 pm
Phil says:
‘Where do you get your value of 0.2 emissivity from, ‘
Further to my previous post concerning above and Hottel; O.2 (or 0.193) is the emissivity/absorptivity of CO2 in the atmosphere to the extinction point of 3600m for dry air.

Robert Stevenson
May 24, 2011 3:14 am

Joel says:
‘The magnitude of the effect produced by CO2 is well-understood and accepted by even skeptical scientists like Richard Lindzen and Roy Spencer.’
The more I read of what Ira is saying the more I realise what a negligible GHE CO2 has. Water vapour absorbs over 3 x more heat in the first 120m than the total potential of CO2 to its extinction point. Increasing CO2 does not affect or increase absorption in this 120m distance as it is dominated by water vapour. Subsequent reradiation and absorption above the 120m level is also dominated by water vapour . CO2 is a very weak GHG – it is but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more, it is tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Spending trillions of $ on CO2 emission reduction is moronic to the nth degree

Joel Shore
May 24, 2011 8:00 am

Robert,
The relative magnitudes of the radiative effect of water vapor and CO2 are well-understood. I don’t see how your naive reasoning (and basic confusion about how the greenhouse effect works anyway) adds or changes anything in regards to that.

May 24, 2011 8:46 am

Robert Stevenson says:
May 24, 2011 at 2:37 am
Robert Stevenson says:
May 23, 2011 at 12:27 pm
Phil says:
‘Where do you get your value of 0.2 emissivity from, ‘
Further to my previous post concerning above and Hottel; O.2 (or 0.193) is the emissivity/absorptivity of CO2 in the atmosphere to the extinction point of 3600m for dry air.

Over what range of wavelengths?

Robert Stevenson
May 24, 2011 10:34 am

Phil says:
‘Where do you get your value of 0.2 emissivity from, ‘
Further to my previous post concerning above and Hottel; O.2 (or 0.193) is the emissivity/absorptivity of CO2 in the atmosphere to the extinction point of 3600m for dry air.
Over what range of wavelengths?
The principal emission bands are at about 2.64 to 2.84, 4.13 to 4.5 and 13 to 17 microns

Robert Stevenson
May 24, 2011 10:53 am

Joel Shore says:
May 24, 2011 at 8:00 am
Robert,
The relative magnitudes of the radiative effect of water vapor and CO2 are well-understood. I don’t see how your naive reasoning (and basic confusion about how the greenhouse effect works anyway) adds or changes anything in regards to that.
Retired Engineer says:
May 8, 2011 at 8:22 am
This makes sense. Absent CO2 and water vapor, we would freeze. How much warming does each contribute? If CO2 did it all, and mankind produces about 3% of the CO2, then we are responsible for 3% of the 33C warming or about 1C. Thus AGW is real. Except for water vapor which may cause 90% of the 33C, in which case we cause 0.1C warming. Big deal. Given the daily and seasonal variations in temperature, I find it very hard to believe that 0.1C will have any measurable effect. Or be measurable at all.
This makes a great deal of sense to me. What does Joel the scientist say?

Joel Shore
May 24, 2011 11:21 am

Robert Stevenson (quoting Retired Engineer) says:

Thus AGW is real. Except for water vapor which may cause 90% of the 33C, in which case we cause 0.1C warming. Big deal. Given the daily and seasonal variations in temperature, I find it very hard to believe that 0.1C will have any measurable effect. Or be measurable at all.
This makes a great deal of sense to me. What does Joel the scientist say?

Nope…No sense at all. Four big problems with this estimate:
(1) CO2 is responsible for somewhat more than 10% of the greenhouse effect. How much depends on how you measure since the effects are not additive. (So if you took an atmosphere devoid of greenhouse gases and added CO2, you’d get a different answer than if you took the current atmosphere and just subtracted out the CO2.) A rough valuer is 20% (http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi?id=sc05400j)
(2) The claim that only 3% is attributable to humans is basically pure fiction. It is true that there are large exchanges back-and-forth between the atmosphere and the biosphere and ocean mixed layer. If you count only the additions due to the biosphere and ocean mixed layer to the atmosphere and compare it to our additions to the atmosphere, it is true that ours is about 3% of the total. However, this ignores the fact that the biosphere and ocean mixed layer are also absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere. What is important is not the exchanges between these different subsystems but rather the additions to the overall system consisting of the atmosphere + biosphere + ocean mixed layer. By adding carbon to this system, we are responsible for essentially all of the increase in the level of atmospheric CO2 that has occurred since the start of the industrial revolution, which is at present about a 40% increase. In fact, if about half of what we emitted didn’t rapidly partition into the biosphere and ocean mixed layer, the CO2 levels would have gone up about twice as much. Whenever you see someone making this 3% claim, they are basically trying to deceive you (or have been deceived themselves).
(3) To calculate the total warming due to an increase in CO2, you have to consider feedbacks, for example, the water vapor feedback whereby the increase in CO2 leads to an increase in water vapor too which then causes further warming.
(4) The dependence of forcing on CO2 levels is logarithmic, not linear. (This is the only one of the 4 major problems that actually is in the direction of causing an overestimate of the contribution due to increasing CO2 levels.)

May 24, 2011 11:39 am

Steve says:
May 23, 2011 at 9:15 am “… It emits energy towards the surface, which lowers the rate of cooling of the (warmer) surface.”
Steve I will ask you to show the radiative heat transfer equation in which you input an emission from another body, gas/solid or fluid and show where it lowers the rate of cooling. It must be an emmission.
Mr. Stevenson keep up the good work.

Robert Stevenson
May 24, 2011 1:33 pm

R Stevenson says: Joel Shore have you read this post by John of Kent? From what you say you appear to believe a greenhouse theory and in AGW. You should read the paper contained within the post by physicist Joe Postma and put asde your own naive thinking.
John of Kent says:
May 8, 2011 at 3:18 am
“I modified the Carleton spreadsheet to compute the mean Solar radiation per square meter absorbed by the Earth System, which turns out to be 240 Watts/m^2. I then used the spreadsheet to determine the effective mean temperature of the Earth System that would emit an equal amount of energy to Space, and that turned out to be 255 Kelvins (-18ºC which is 1ºF).
Since the mean temperature at the surface of the Earth is 288 Kelvins (+15ºC which is 59ºF), that leaves 33 Kelvins (33ºC which is 58ºF) to be accounted for. Guess how we acount for it?”
We can account for the 33C difference without any need for an imaginary greenhouse effect. I urge everyone at WUWT to read this brilliant paper by physicist Joe Postma ;
http://www.globalwarmingskeptics.info/forums/attachment.php?aid=327
In this paper, Joe accounts for the 33C. The truth is that the radiative temperature of the Earth is measured from space IS -18C. And it is true that the average air temperature near the surface of the earth is 15C. However, if one includes the whole of the atmosphere right up to the edge of space and the surface of the earth in calculating the average radiative temperature of the Earths surface [i]and[/i] atmosphere, then we get to the -18C figure.
There is no discrepancy, there is no need for an imaginary “greenhouse effect”.
Surely the Phlogiston of our times!

JAE
May 24, 2011 1:52 pm

Joel Shore again waves arms rapidly:
“You believe that there exists some magical version of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics that prevents colder objects from radiating toward warmer objects…or the warmer objects from absorbing the radiation…or this absorbed radiation from affecting the energy balance, or some other total nonsense that violates the laws of physics.”
You will not find anywhere that I said any of those things. Are you making this up or just misunderstanding me?
How about those laws of physics relating to the lapse rate and the ideal gas equation?
Anyway, you better tether yourself to an anchor, because if you wave your arms much harder you are going to take off like a Harrier Jet. I guess some folks just have to resort to insults when they cannot produce substantive arguments.
WHERE ARE THE ACTUAL EMPIRICAL DATA, JOEL? And please don’t tell me that the numbers in the radiation cartoons or the output of GCMs are data. Hell, I can’t even get the K&T numbers with Modtran (maybe I’m doing something wrong??).
Here are some numbers to consider: Let’s use the “radiation budget” in the K&T diagram. It presumes a surface temperature of 15 C. And at that temperature we have backradiation at 324 wm-2. But at that temperature, assuming a humid environment (which must be so, since there is plenty of water on most of the earth’s surface), saturated air can contain 12.75 g/m3 water vapor. The actual average amount is about 9 g. Now, let’s pretend we go to 30 C, where the amount of water vapor at saturation is over double (29.77) and actual is about 24 g, or 2.7 times as much. If we (only) double the amount of backradiation to adjust for all that extra water vapor, we would have 648 wm-2 backradiation. If we add that to the high-noon direct solar radiation in July–about 900 wm-2 in tropical and temperate zones– we would have a total amount of radiation of 1548 wm-2 at noon. That is equivalent to a blackbody temperature of 133 C (272 F). I dare say that doesn’t make sense to me. Even if the backradiation stays at only 324 wm-2, the noon bb temp. would be 110 C (230 F). Something seems wrong with this picture when you start looking at actual numbers, that’s all.
(Amt. vapor at saturation = 5.465 e^0.0565 t; actual amounts are taken from a regression of 30-year average data for July and December from 156 locations = 3.422 e^0.064 t; R^2 = 0.98)

Robert Stevenson
May 24, 2011 2:57 pm

Another much hyped GHG is methane; there is only 1 ppm in the atmosphere!

May 24, 2011 4:01 pm

Robert Stevenson says on May 24, 2011 at 1:33 pm:
“Joel ————————————————–times!”
All the words between those two above make perfect sense to me. – If IRA and others who “believe” there must be some truth in “The AGW Theory” because they have worked out a surface temperature of -18 °C by using good mathematics and undisputable physical laws should read up on what Joseph E. Postma has got to say about it. —-(All 31 pages of it)

May 24, 2011 6:14 pm

Robert Stevenson says:
May 24, 2011 at 10:34 am
Phil says:
‘Where do you get your value of 0.2 emissivity from, ‘
Further to my previous post concerning above and Hottel; O.2 (or 0.193) is the emissivity/absorptivity of CO2 in the atmosphere to the extinction point of 3600m for dry air.
“Over what range of wavelengths?”
The principal emission bands are at about 2.64 to 2.84, 4.13 to 4.5 and 13 to 17 microns

Yes I know that, the only one of which is relevant is 13-17, so I’ll ask again, over what range of wavelengths does your value of 0.2 apply? From the above I’ll accept that it’s zero from 2.84 to 4.13, 4.5 to 13 and over 17.

jae
May 24, 2011 6:22 pm

“All the words between those two above make perfect sense to me. – If IRA and others who “believe” there must be some truth in “The AGW Theory” because they have worked out a surface temperature of -18 °C by using good mathematics and undisputable physical laws should read up on what Joseph E. Postma has got to say about it. —-(All 31 pages of it)”
Yeah. We can hope that Joel Shore and his CAGW-lovin buddies will address this, using logic and facts, as opposed to armwaving and insults. I still have not seen a refutation of Postma’s ideas, as well as the related ideas by Siddons, et. al. that I linked. Are the “experts” too busy to bother? Ira, would you care to “pitch in,” here?

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