Yes, it floats on water, and has a Fresnel lens from the local high school projectionist club, but what about typhoons and lesser gales? No mention of that. Somehow, this bullet point from the Overview page doesn’t seem reassuring:
Floating the system on water reduces the need for expensive supporting structures to protect it from high winds. The lenses submerge in winds above 60km/hr and the water also cools the cells which increases their efficiency.
I see deep water horizons in the future.
Sunengy, Australia partners with Tata Power to build the first floating solar plant in India
Indian trial of a unique Australian solar system will move it towards full production
0.28 scale aluminium prototype
Australian solar power company Sunengy Pty Limited has entered into a partnership with India’s largest integrated private power utility, Tata Power that will allow it build a pilot plant for its low-cost, floating-on-water, solar technology in India by the end of this year.
Sunengy Chairman and Executive Director of Business Development, Peter Wakeman, said that Tata Power, a flagship company of Tata Group, has partnered with Sunengy for its interest in its patented Liquid Solar Array (LSA) technology. Mr Wakeman said the deal was significant for the future use of solar globally because it allows Sunengy to demonstrate the practicality of its technology in one of the world’s most promising solar power markets.
The LSA was invented by Phil Connor, Sunengy Executive Director and Chief Technology Officer and a passionate advocate for solar power for 45 years. Mr Connor said that when located on and combined with hydroelectric dams, LSA provides the breakthroughs of reduced cost and ‘on demand’ 24/7 availability that are necessary for solar power to become widely used. The LSA uses traditional Concentrated Photovoltaic (CPV) technology – a lens and a small area of solar cells that tracks the sun throughout the day, like a sunflower. Floating the LSA on water reduces the need for expensive supporting structures to protect it from high winds. The lenses submerge in bad weather and the water also cools the cells which increases their efficiency and life-span. According to Mr Connor, hydropower supplies 87 percent of the world’s renewable energy and 16 percent of the world’s power but is limited by its water resource. He said an LSA installation could match the power output of a typical hydro dam using less than 10 percent of its surface area and supply an additional six to eight hours of power per day. Modelling by Sunengy shows, for example, that a 240 MW LSA system could increase annual energy generation at the Portuguese hydro plant, Alqueva, by 230%. “LSA effectively turns a dam into a very large battery, offering free solar storage and opportunity for improved water resource management,” Mr Connor said. “LSA needs no heavy materials or huge land acquisitions and is effectively cyclone proof,” he said. “If India uses just one percent of its 30,000 square kilometers of captured water with our system, we can generate power equivalent to 15 large coal-fired power stations.”
Mr Banmali Agrawala, Executive Director, Tata Power said “In our quest to deliver sustainable energy, Tata Power is consistently investing in clean and eco-friendly technologies. We have partnered with Sunengy, Australia for a pilot plant in India, which is concentrated photovoltaic solar technology that floats on water. This nascent technology will be demonstrated in the natural environment; it utilises the water surface for mounting and does not compete with land that can be used for other purposes.”
Mr Wakeman said that the primary market for LSA is the provision of industrial scale electricity via hydropower facilities. Other markets include mining sites as well as villages and remote communities reliant on diesel power generators.
Construction of the pilot plant in India will commence in August 2011. Sunengy plans to establish a larger LSA system in the NSW Hunter Valley in mid 2012 before going into full production.
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B Tisdale: In my view your graph is still only showing warming from 1995. The line fit is highly contentious. Most data before 1995 is still showing below 0C anomaly, in fact it looks like a death flat line, so again we have another baseline problem there.
And I thought that the Australians had plenty of experience of noxious water weed problems. Want to make the weed grow faster? Put a mettle structure in the water.
I hate to dismiss these things. They should work fine, but it is just hard to imagine them cheap enough to be cost effective and worth keeping repaired. There are lots of sound objections above, but what worries me more is the lack of specifics. How much power per unit? They speak of MWs per installation. Really? Can they produce 100 W per square meter? They will need tens of thousands for MWs. Just doesn’t seem practical in an economic sense.
It seems to me there is too much hand waving, too little specifics, too little attention to detail with the language used, and too many questions. It seems the main selling point is the fact that they do not take up land surface area, but isn’t the water surface area used for something at least some of the time? I suppose I’m leaning toward scam.
It does seem the Indian government is not subsiding with tax money. That is a positive.
Ah yes, seagulls.
One reason I always wear a hat when near or on the water.
Maybe these lenses could be equipped with spritzers and wiper blades. . .
/Mr Lynn
I think the birds would absolutely love it if it didn’t keep sinking.
If the water would stay calm, the reflection off the water should help some.
TATA are just at it again. Take a look at the Magic Taxi in this reference from Popular Mechanics and note that it’s already 3 years late.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html
The floating solar array is just like the Magic Taxi in the respect that they both have huge appeal to ecomentalists with no engineering experience.
Permissium Orbis Terrarum Tepidus
Stephan says:
March 30, 2011 at 10:38 pm
> Anthony: thank for posting most of my OT postings.
You could use Tips & Notes…
John Kehr noted, but it bears repeating, that this is meant to augment hydroelectric production. Anthony’s reference to typhoons triggered the salt water imagery.
Also, the photo here is a prototype/test element. The real installation would build many of these on an array of floats that suggest all sorts of interesting interaction with wind and waves. Like how are they going to anchor a lightweight structure made out sails?
At least collecting the power from a large array is more sensible than from a flock of individual elements. Servicing the arrays could be interesting. Perhaps they can be lifted out of the water. I don’t know about utility crews, but us EEs are taught it’s not a good idea to work on live electrical things while standing on a wet floor. Maybe if they only did service at nighttime….
Anthony should have used http://sunengy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/LSA-bank.png – then we could all ooh and ahh over the lame (non existent) attempt to photoshop in an image of a fresnel lens.
Okay research project. They’ll learn a lot of things that don’t work and probably run into a few interesting unintended consequences.
The one good feature of this scheme is that it can be tested for all of the potential problem areas with a small investment, since it appears to be modular. It looks like the main problem will be fouling from the normal “scum” that forms quickly on anything exposed to lake water. This would either require an anti-fouling coating (which normally requires renewal) or periodic cleaning. Cleaning chemicals work good (spray on / wash off), but of course would have to be environmentally friendly enough not to poison the lake.
I could use a few of those floating lenses (without the PV) to heat my pool since it is still a block of ice here in New England.
R and D grants, which can keep a company afloat in bad times, must show something at the end of the day to justify continued feeding at the more than likely publicly funded R and D grant trough.
This green push is like a cancer that is invading country after country. I suppose we have this same kind of system in the U.S. The public is the likely funding source for R and D projects that will never see the light of day in an actual real life sustainable situation, but no matter. You have to show a pvc pipe and duct tape prototype in order to get the next round of money to produce the next prototype. Whether or not it works in the field is not the point here.
The world’s population is being pick-pocketed.
Moderators: I propose this as post, but if interested, I could go in more depth based on a recent assessment I did on this technology. Please delete this header before posting. Thx
The idea of synergistically using solar power and hydropower from dams seems very reasonable – when solar energy is available the water flow through the turbines can be throttled, and thus one is no longer burdened with using the fluctuating power from solar, but achieves a pre-determinable output, making such a combo-facility suitable for base supply into the grid. Of course, there is no need for co-location, because you get the same effect as long as the two technologies are electrically connected and handled under a common control system.
The proposed benefit of strict co-location – the solar devices floating on the water of the dam – is simply an attempt to take advantage of the available surface space offered by this body of water. Of course, any solar system delivering electricity would do the job; why a 2-axis tracker for Concentrated Photovoltaic Energy (CPV) is proposed is a different question. And why its structure is floating, i.e. agitated by the water waves, and its optical system even immersed into the water at times of too much waves, are yet additional questions.
Sure, if you put solar collectors on very large surfaces – like 1% of 30,000 square kilometers of India’s captured water as proposed by Sunengy – you can generate a very large amount of electricity. If it works. And if you can afford it.
Much has already been said about what will happen to anything in the water, coming from above (birds, dirt, combined with rain) and from below (sea live, algae) under corrosive conditions (moisture, salt – even in freshwater, UV-light). I’d like to address the issue of CPV.
The proposed benefit of CPV is that the concentration of the solar light onto a smaller surface allows you to mount the more expensive solar cells with higher efficiency. Good standard cells may have an efficiency of 20%, while the best satellite-type cells are near or even beyond 40%. Also, solar cells tend to perform better at higher light intensity (and when they are well cooled). Hence you can produce up to 2x as much electric power for a given ground surface area.
The disadvantage is that the concentrating optics limits light use to the so called Direct-Normal-Radiation, which is light coming from the sun without obstruction or scattering by clouds, dust or any other atmospheric disturbance. This reduces the available radiation by amounts ranging from 10% to 80%, depending on the regional conditions, relative to the total radiation – direct plus diffuse – arriving at the same place.
Good concentration of light can only be achieved with good tracking of the sun, and matching mechanical controls for the alignment of the optics. This will be additionally challenging on a rocking platform on the water. The investment, maintenance, and repair cost for such systems must be accounted for.
What does it look like for current land-based CPV installations? There are a few companies offering them, like Skyline Solar, Morgansolar, SolFocus, Amonix, Energy Innovations, Concentrix Solar. The concentration factors applied range from 10 – 1400fold. The high concentration factor requires precision mounting of the solar cells of 25µm (micrometer!), and a tracking precision of 0.1 degrees (!), withstanding wind of only 11m/s. (Good sailing wind for a Sunday afternoon family sail). Despite a solar cell efficiency of 37%, the module efficiency drops to only 27%. The company itself states that the cost advantage is only “10-20% depending on location”! In other words: there is barely an advantage neither in cost nor in energy output over current stationary flat panel technology, and given the continuing price drops in solar panels, any remaining will disappear soon.
Sunengy is not telling what concentration factors and solar cells they use; from the pictures it looks like no more than 30fold concentration. And wording suggests they use standard silicon cells.
It is difficult to see this technology working, let alone seeing an advantage. Is this perhaps one of Dogbert’s press releases? http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/03/29/tuesday-titter/
Could they double as fresh water mussel farms? To be fair, we would all like these ideas to work out, but I just can’t see it. We are stuck with fossil fuels, imo.
After the first storm, they will need to “hide the decline”.
The insulation of the cells and wires will leak, you will get electrolysis and power loss, and maybe a nice hydrogen explosion as a bonus. And electrocuted fish. These are the reasons we prefer our electric installations dry.
Grumpy Old Man says:
March 30, 2011 at 10:56 pm
Tata Group didn’t get where they are today though altruism. As the Indian government rarely use their own money, is the UN being tapped for development funding for the Indian project?
Can any of the Aussie posters give an idea of just how much Aussie taxpayers money is being poured into the Hunter Valley project?
————–
seeing TATA and knowing we aussies gave india many millions just before krudd got the boot..I suspect this.
will have a dekko and see if? any info around re Hunter.
have a friend there that might know.
I like the idea of using this invention as a pool heater. The only problem would be keeping the sun’s rays focused away from meltable portions of the pool lining. Hmmmm… maybe not such a good idea after all.
Cassandra King says:
March 30, 2011 at 11:32 pm
I have an idea for producing electricity with a magic wand and all I need to for this miracle to work is full funding, lets say a million bucks and ten years, if it doesnt pan out at least I got the million bucks.
Cassandra, I am working on the same concept and I’ve gone over the numbers.
WE will need $2M per year for 10 years. We can get started just as soon as we get funding from DOE.
exciting, can’t wait, huh?
My daddy would have said “It’s like overdrive on a jackass…..it’s a good idea but it just doesn’t work”
I’ll look into this further when my Tata Air Car finally arrives.
Tata also own the beautiful but ever- thirsty Jaguar and Land/RangeRover marques.
I too doubt it`s altruism or guilt.
As with most manufacturing industries they`ll soak up any subsidies subtle blackmail can offer.Cash or we build in china!
This is their latest auto project, the`pixel` they`re building it just round the corner from where i live.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventrytimes/2011/03/31/tiny-tata-is-new-city-car-92746-28437952/
I have no idea how much tax raised subsidy they recieved, i think a little research is in order.
Hands up who`d prefer a `Jag`.
Tata not too green.
It must be the subsidies.
http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/2011/03/11/press-comment-jaguar-land-rovers-global-ambitions-are-taking-shape/
I’m just imagining the surface of Lake Tahoe covered with these things. Not quite so attractive for recreational activities anymore…
“Renewable energy is the future … only because when we run out of all other better alternatives, we will be returning to the past.”
We have these folks in denial who seem to think that renewables can never work. The reality is that nature has been using renewable energy for millions of years…and our most plentiful energy sources come from ancient lifeforms who relied on the sun’s energy to survive.
This notion that a big fusion reaction which dumps way more energy on our planet than can be used by everything here can’t possibly help in any way to power our consumptive lifestyle…largely denial, probably from the old-energy lobbyists.
I’m not dismissing the constructive criticisms out of hand, because it’s true that nature is also messy, but let’s not automatically toss everything out just because there are some problems.
One of my life’s work enterprises, has been to try and convince people that “Optics” exists as a technology, only becuase somebody discovered that if you took too pieces of glass (or Obsidian) and you put some wet sand in between them arnd rubbed them together, you would eventually end up with the two surfaces being a matching pair of near spherical surfaces; one convex, and one concave; and if you can find some smaller sand grits, then you can make them even closer to mathematical spheres; until in the end, you can make matching spherical surfaces, that can be within a hundredth of a wavelength of being perfect polished spherical surfaces; because that is the only surface that fits to its mate in any possible orientation.
If that was not the case, there simply would be no optical industry; well they would be just starting to figure out how to make precision “Optical” surfaces.
Some people mistakenly think, that just because you are doing “optics” that you must be getting accurate results.
NO !! you only get the “optical results” if you have the precision in the required optical elements of your system; INCLUDING WHERE THE HELL THE PIECES ARE !!
So you are going to drop these Fresnel lenses in the ocean, and they are going to stay ponted at the sun through thick and thin and the mythological 150 year storm.
Baloney !