Can we have our regular old light bulbs back now?

Great, just great. Don’t get me wrong, I like the LED bulbs, I have several in my house. But when we get back to basics, a tungsten light bulb doesn’t require a haz-mat squad to dispose of. It’s glass, ceramic, tungsten, some thin steel, and tin solder (if ROHS). CFL bulbs and now LED bulbs are so much more eco unfriendly and when they inevitably end up in landfills, they become a source of heavy metal. We may have gained short term energy efficiency, but the long term payback may not be worth it.

LED products billed as eco-friendly contain toxic metals, study finds

UC researchers tested holiday bulbs, traffic lights and car beams

From UC Irvine:

Those light-emitting diodes marketed as safe, environmentally preferable alternatives to traditional lightbulbs actually contain lead, arsenic and a dozen other potentially hazardous substances, according to newly published research.

“LEDs are touted as the next generation of lighting. But as we try to find better products that do not deplete energy resources or contribute to global warming, we have to be vigilant about the toxicity hazards of those marketed as replacements,” said Oladele Ogunseitan, chair of UC Irvine’s Department of Population Health & Disease Prevention.

He and fellow scientists at UCI and UC Davis crunched, leached and measured the tiny, multicolored lightbulbs sold in Christmas strands; red, yellow and green traffic lights; and automobile headlights and brake lights. Their findings? Low-intensity red lights contained up to eight times the amount of lead allowed under California law, but in general, high-intensity, brighter bulbs had more contaminants than lower ones. White bulbs copntained the least lead, but had high levels of nickel.

“We find the low-intensity red LEDs exhibit significant cancer and noncancer potentials due to the high content of arsenic and lead,” the team wrote in the January 2011 issue of Environmental Science & Technology, referring to the holiday lights. Results from the larger lighting products will be published later, but according to Ogunseitan, “it’s more of the same.”

Lead, arsenic and many additional metals discovered in the bulbs or their related parts have been linked in hundreds of studies to different cancers, neurological damage, kidney disease, hypertension, skin rashes and other illnesses. The copper used in some LEDs also poses an ecological threat to fish, rivers and lakes.

Ogunseitan said that breaking a single light and breathing fumes would not automatically cause cancer, but could be a tipping point on top of chronic exposure to another carcinogen. And – noting that lead tastes sweet – he warned that small children could be harmed if they mistake the bright lights for candy.

Risks are present in all parts of the lights and at every stage during production, use and disposal, the study found. Consumers, manufacturers and first responders to accident scenes ought to be aware of this, Ogunseitan said. When bulbs break at home, residents should sweep them up with a special broom while wearing gloves and a mask, he advised. Crews dispatched to clean up car crashes or broken traffic fixtures should don protective gear and handle the material as hazardous waste. Currently, LEDs are not classified as toxic and are disposed of in regular landfills. Ogunseitan has forwarded the study results to California and federal health regulators.

He cites LEDs as a perfect example of the need to mandate product replacement testing. The diodes are widely hailed as safer than compact fluorescent bulbs, which contain dangerous mercury. But, he said, they weren’t properly tested for potential environmental health impacts before being marketed as the preferred alternative to inefficient incandescent bulbs, now being phased out under California law. A long-planned state regulation originally set to take effect Jan. 1 would have required advance testing of such replacement products. But it was opposed by industry groups, a less stringent version was substituted, and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger placed the law on hold days before he left office.

“I’m frustrated, but the work continues,” said Ogunseitan, a member of the state Department of Toxic Substances Control’s Green Ribbon Science Panel. He said makers of LEDs and other items could easily reduce chemical concentrations or redesign them with truly safer materials. “Every day we don’t have a law that says you cannot replace an unsafe product with another unsafe product, we’re putting people’s lives at risk,” he said. “And it’s a preventable risk.”

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rbateman

The CFL got it’s foothold due to the payment proffered from an Energy Bill.
The payment was government sanction and subsidy for GE, Sylvania and Westinghouse to move production to China.
The CFL is actually worse as a household item, because the consumer generally does not read the warning about Mercury if the light is fractured/broken, and the force used in hand-threading such bulbs in the socket is sufficient to cause failure.
Accident looking for a place to happen: Meet contamination looking for a place to happen…your home.

Tom T

Oh don’t you take my light bulb away.

DonS

Dudes. The plan was always to have us freeze to death in the dark. When are you going to get that?

mr.artday

The “scientists” forgot to tell us how many red LEDs we would have to chew thoroughly and swallow in order to get sick from lead poisoning. Sounds like more horse processed hay for the mushrooms to me.

Curmudgeon Geographer

In Minnesota, those incandescent light bulbs are better thought of as “heat balls”. Rather efficient heating mechanisms in winter, they are. Goodness knows environmentalists aren’t considering the heating efficiency offered by the ol’ bulbs.

S

And people wonder why I still drive vehicles with glass headlights. “New” tech is really starting to stink.

liquidflorian

….ok. Sure. You take 100 Ibuprofen tablets too and thats’s toxic. The printed circuit boards inside LED bulbs can contain all that stuff….in trace amounts…. You going t0 eat a tablespoon of LEDs?

M.A.DeLuca

Wait. What?
Except for the anode and cathode, the guts of an LED are encased in a thick layer of plastic.

Ogunseitan said that breaking a single light and breathing fumes would not automatically cause cancer, but could be a tipping point on top of chronic exposure to another carcinogen. And – noting that lead tastes sweet – he warned that small children could be harmed if they mistake the bright lights for candy.

What fumes?! Are they confusing LEDs with CFLs?

Zeke

When it is said of mercury and lead that they are neurotoxins, this is not environmentalist hyperbole. And keep in mind that these neurotoxins would be in their vaporized form, in your home, in lights that were manufactured most likely in China. Many of these bulbs have already been known to spontaneously break, leak, or catch fire. Fire departments are also learning not to overlook these CFLs in homes:

“A CFL bulb contains a ballast at the base of the unit between the spiral tube and (Edison) screw. This ballast, encased in a plastic shell, may or may not have visible vent holes or slots.
The ballast contains a Voltage Dependent Resister that, when failure occurs, opens like a fuse to protect the device and associated electrical equipment. The resultant heat and smoke should escape from the vents in the housing. Light smoke may be visible and one will smell that distinct electrical ballast odor. As in the case the other night, there were visible smoke marks and a small, brown oily/gooey residue at the vent holes. These signs were not visible with the bulb in its socket.

Calvi36

Should try living in the UK, the good old EU banned them ages ago and now we have the dim bulbs the dim-witted EU say we should use, but hey watch this space when one breaks and a haz mat team has to come in to remove the mercury.

Zeke

Teaching my kids about the history of music and the composers, we have been struck by how many of these musical genius’ lost their battle with depression. I have wondered if this is because of the use of lead as a sweetener for cheap wine. Granted, nobody made any money except Rossini and they were all in debt, but something was tipping all of these great artists into a black depression.
Whether that is the case or not, the damage to the central nervous system and the depression caused by these two metals, mercury and lead, are to be taken seriously.
I personally think it could lead to a great devaluing of homes, as the leaks and spills mount, and no one will want to take chances on bringing their tiny babies in a home potentially contaminated by these dangerous elements.

Even though by now everyone who is well informed knows that global warming is a hoax, it still makes good sense to try and preserve energyy. Namely, it costs money to make energy. The fluorscent type lights that I use do not really break down very often ad save at least 75% in energy. They just burn and burn, foreever it seems. I am in LA at the moment. Visiting from South Africa. I am puzzled that I don’t see more solar water heating (with a solar geyser). This is stupid. You can save 40% of your electricity bill just letting the sun heat your water for the geyser. Due to to a shortage of power , our (state funded) electricity company in South Africa is giving a subsidy for every installation built. This is an idea that must be implemented worldwide, as it is a good way to spend government subsidies instead of wasting it on “climate research”.

Does anyone know if halogen bulbs are a decent compromise? I’m using a few and they look like incandescents, don’t need five minutes of warming up and work in fittings on dimmer switches. There’s no electronic ballast on them and they use about half the power of an incandescent. They’re more expensive of course but since the Australian government has banned incandescents, including if you call them heat globes apparently, they seem to be the best option if you’ve got some dimmer switches. But I do wonder if they have downsides of their own.

Bob Diaz

Part of the problem is that the information is presented out of context. That is we really aren’t told the relative toxic level compared to the other products. One also has to factor in the lifespan of the product too.
A standard light bulb has a life of around 750 to 1250 hours depending on the bulb.
Assume 1,000 as the average. A CFL is rated at 10,000; however this assumes you never turn of the light. Repeated On/Off cycling will shorten the life of the CFL, but I’ve never seen any numbers on exactly how much life it would be under normal use. LED Lights don’t have a catastrophic failure, like the first two lights, so the L70 Standard applies. When the light falls to 70% of the initial light output, the life of the LED is considered ended. LED Lights have a life of around 35,000 to 50,000 hours. Also, LED lights can be turned on and off rapidly with out any problems of a shorter life.
Thus, an LED light would have the life of 35 to 50 regular light bulbs and 3.5 to 5 CFL bulbs. One would need to factor how much toxic material in one LED compared to 3.5 to 5 CFL compared to 35 to 50 regular light bulbs. I thought that regular light bulbs used lead at the base of the bulb. … or has this been changed to lead free solder?

Joe

Regular incandescent light bulbs have lead on the bottom where they screw in, I believe, solder.

In Oz we can’t buy old bulbs anymore, you can’t sell a house without an environmental rating which includes having eco lights, the new ones are dear, dim, and don’t last as long. What a great idea! What can we do next!

Calvi36

Henry, we do not have a shortage of any energy! Why are electricity prices so high? Simply to create profits for shareholders. There is no shortage of energy and we have absolutely no need to conserve energy apart from to save our our personal bank accounts from the rape by greedy energy companies.
I do not buy into your argument as it is flawed beyond belief.
We have pensioners in the UK that can now only afford to heat one room due to the huge increases in energy prices, another 5% added in december 2010, which was the coldest December in record.
Energy poverty is artificially created by the very same companies who spout that they are spending x amount on new green techs, ahem, they use this as a false flag to justify the raises in electricity prices.
Centrica, a French Company that owns British Gas has reported this:
Key Fundamentals Financials – Interim (28/7/2010)
Turnover £m 11,707
Pre-tax Profit £m 2,004
EPS p 25.78
DPS p 9.14
Now, do they look like they have to raise prices by 5-8%?

I think I like the opening line best:

Those light-emitting diodes marketed as safe, environmentally preferable alternatives to traditional lightbulbs actually contain lead, arsenic and a dozen other potentially hazardous substances, according to newly published research.

Didn’t they frakkin’ well know what was in these things when they built them? Is there a “black box” factory out there that makes light bulbs, but nobody knew what went into them until somebody did research? They’ve discovered, through “research,” that there’s lead in these things. Now how the hell did it get there? Do you think they’ll discover that lightbulbs also contain glass? Who knew?

Those oak tables common in so many households actually contain wood according to new research.
“We had no idea,” says carpenter John Smith who makes oak tables for a living. “We just use this here tree flesh stuff to make them. Nobody told us there was any wood in it.”

Seriously. This is so stupid I don’t even know who to be mad at.

Allen

I like CFLs because they consume less energy – full stop. I had to shop around for bulbs that had good initial luminosity and they have performed satisfactorily. In places where I need instant brightness I stick to the good old incandescent bulbs – conservation be darned.
As for the Christmas lights, I avoid LEDs like the plague. They don’t have that warm look to them… likely because they aren’t warm. Who (besides Suzuki) wants to see cold lights on a cold night?

Pyromancer76

I hate CFLs and have stocked up on incandescants. My hunch is that true Americans are going to rebel over this nonsense about “banning” anything. Free choice and education as to hazards and efficiency is what is appropriate — and American. But what’s up with this UC Irvine research after the fact? Following your example, Anthony, I just changed out a number of lights for CREE LEDs. The light is absolutely beautiful. I’m planning to live with it.

Paul Vaughan

We must protect our water supply (& not just on short timescales).

Zeke

What is less known is that the “treasury of electronic circuitry” in CFLs generate radio frequency interference. Because of this they interfere with some remote control devices and with radio, especially AM. It could potentially interfere also with wireless systems such as alarms.
source
a typical smoking comment
X-10 interference comment

Beth Cooper

Here in Australia, former land of the free, we are forced to use these toxic mercury light globes by law. Many of us, it is likely, will suffer a similar fate to the composer Beethoven who died of lead poisoning. 🙁

Henry@Calvi36
So if you are worried about making the energy companies rich, why not put up your own solar geysers? England perhaps not so much, is that where you live? (because they do not have that much sunshine) but the question I asked: why have I not seen any here (in LA). Sunny California. I am puzzled about that.

Robert Austin

Angry Exile says:
February 10, 2011 at 9:10 pm
Halogen bulbs are a type of incandescent light. They are designed so that the filament runs at a hotter temperature, thus emitting more light in the visible spectrum. Thus halogens are somewhat more efficient than your conventional incandescent bulb, but still not nearly as efficient as a CFL or LED type lamp.

u.k.(us)

Wow,
They thought light bulbs would be easy.
Now, they need to explain cosmic rays.

Calvi36

Henry, I live in Scotland where the rain falls horizintally! Yet they still put up solar panels so that they can hopefully capture the power of the sun 3 months out of nine!. They are also blotting our amazing landscape with wind turbines (that all run on duracell batteries, family joke!). Seriously the cost of renewables far outweighs the benefit gained from those power sources. In my country, why not build more hydro-electric dams, god knows we have enough water!

bubbagyro

Prediction:
LED and CFL manufacturers will be stuck for the costs of landfill cleanup, and will have to excavate their sites as superfund sites. That way, the government has a built in cash cow (slush fund) for decades to come. By then, the global warming hysteria will be forgotten, but “CFLs are forever”! Then Henry “Nasaltov” Waxman and his ambulance chasing lawyer buddies can clean up on lawsuits for whatever ailment is in vogue that year, which “experts” will claim is caused by the heavy metal pollution that they have themselves wrought.
Brilliant! (pun intended)

Geoff Sherrington

Yes, bring back the tungsten filament please!
But (and it’s not often I argue the contrary view here), the official list of known can-causing chemicals is fewer than 30 long. Last month I reviewed cancer chemicals in a note on PCs, but much of that I wrote is relevant to this thread.
http://www.geoffstuff.com/PCBs%20and%20cancer.doc
In particular the story of trace lead is still open – it’s a bit like Global Warming with a small group of scientists who have proposed alternatives to the hugely-funded Establishment view. I’m content to go on record as saying that a child who eats an offending LED light is in no danger from the lead therein. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1440-1754.1997.tb00984.x/abstract
There are plenty of people who beat up the cancer dangers of man-made chemicals. They should reserve their writings until they have proof of both mechanism and dose.
BTW, it might be interesting to hear what Jeff Id says about LEDs.

Zeke

H.R.6144 – Better Use of Light Bulbs Act
Repeals the part of the the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 which bans incandescent lights.
I don’t know if the GE plants for those already closed. But then you just buy stock in the little companies still producing light bulbs here in the US. 🙂

John Brookes

When I was a kid, we had a lead weight that was used as a door-closer. One day I lit a fire in the back yard, and got the lead weight and an old saucepan, and melted it. My younger sisters joined in. I still wonder if it had any effect on us.
Of course the new flourescent globes contain mercury, just like the older flourescent tubes do. I understand that some greenie, hippy, weirdo somewhere did a calculation comparing cfls to incandescent lights. He found that when you took into account the mercury released by the coal burnt to power the globes, that incandescents were responsible for the release of more mercury than cfls. But being some greenie, weirdo, anti-life, commie, he would say that.
Back to lead, and in towns in Australia near mines, the blood lead levels in children there tends to be high. The mining companies advise that you just need to keep the lead dust out of your house, and you’ll be fine. A couple of years ago thousands of birds near Esperance in Western Australia died. It was caused by lead dust leaking from a train taking lead to the port at Esperance.

Mark T

LEDs certainly do not scare me.
Mark

Konrad

I still think LEDs are the way to go. There are still problems such as cost, spectrum and design for recyclability. However companies are working to reduce the already small environmental impact such as –
http://www.bluglass.com.au/pages/about/about_the_company.html
CFL globes however are a total disaster. The level of toxins, the pathetic performance and the recycling difficulties make the problems with LEDs pale into insignificance. The forced introduction of the twisty globes of eyestrain and toxic doom can be seen as indicative of all government mandated green solutions. The cure is worse than the aliment. Dim bulbs full of mercury, wind turbines blending birds and bio fuels starving nations. Truly the age of stupid.

Henry@Calvi36
All I said was that I have noted a 40% decline in energy consumption after installing a solar geyser. But, yes, you must have regular sunshine> that is the whole point. But where I live we have much of that. \ Hydro power is a good idea. I think Willis had a simple one built on his plot somewhere. I vaguely remember he had a drawn plan for that project on WUWT. So if you have a river at the back of your yard, look up that plan of his again , here on WUWT.

Bill Thomson

I recently did a study of the change in my pocket, and was astonished to learn that many of the coins were contaminated with high concentrations of copper and nickel, both of which we know are toxic.
In the interest of the environment, and because of my great love for humanity, I am willing to put my life at risk to properly dispose of all of this harmful copper and nickel before you begin to suffer from it’s effects. Please send me….
I was also shocked to learn that a typical red gallium arsenide LED contains arsenic! Who woulda thunk? /sarc.
Seriously, this report could be summed up in one word: Drivel.
The lens on an LED is typically made of epoxy. The metal frame and reflector will be a copper alloy just like the metal frame that supports the die on any other electronic component. It will be tin plated, and will almost certainly be RoHS compliant if it has been manufactured recently, which means that it contains no lead. The die in the LED (which emits the light) is encased in epoxy and is about the size of a grain of sand. It’s a semiconductor and it has been doped with trace amounts of some exotic elements to make it emit colored light. So what?
I can assure you that in electronic manufacturing plants safety is a prime consideration, and yet there are no special safety precautions for handling LEDs. They are benign.
However, I will try to remember to refrain from chewing the LEDs next time I eat a handful. /sarc

smacca

Curmudgeon Geographer says:
February 10, 2011 at 8:35 pm
“In Minnesota, those incandescent light bulbs are better thought of as “heat balls”. Rather efficient heating mechanisms in winter, they are. Goodness knows environmentalists aren’t considering the heating efficiency offered by the ol’ bulbs.”
Hi Curmudge !!!
Maybe you could turn off all your heating and park your family around a 60 watt Osram tonight.
Let us know how you go.

pkatt

Anyone who has ever worked under a car with the old work lights knows that at least once during the fix, your bulb will break or burn out. That was with the old style lights. Clean up.. sweep, toss and get back to work. Now? Hazmat suit, gloves, mask, glass jar and at least 30 mins to let the dust settle.. gee that is so much better.
That said I’ve been using the cfl’s since they came out, and before there were warnings about their breakage. Im probably already poisoned but that aside, I liked them because in certain lamps they last a very very long time but .. I still had my old light bulbs for more rough and tumble work. I hate it when the gov picks a winner, it stifles any new innovation.
Things I miss, glass jars, paper bags and now regular old light bulbs. All casualties of the use this instead, it’s so much greener movement. So now we have landfills and oceans with plastic and environmental hazards for houses.. Gee thanks thats so much better.

crucilandia

the energy consumption to produce 1 regular bulb is 6x that of a LED. Landfills are lined. How many LED do actually break per year per household? I do not see the problem.

Calvi36

Henry, I have a river next to me, hell it is even tidal a cpl of miles further downstream but I don’t think the nanny state would allow me to erect tidal barriers to draw power let alone a hydro electric dam.
The crux is this, I do not want to live in a nanny state where they tell me what light bulbs I can and cannot use, what kind of fuel I must use in my car nor how many times I am permitted to fart per day without fear of a fine!
I am actually capable of making decisions for myself in all areas of life. I am actually pro environment, not against it at all as most deniers are. BTW I deny the catholic faith that was drummed into me as a kid by those that “knew what was good for me”.
Some of us on here have way more life experience than those do-badders in power.
Rant over.

Zeke

And we all were told the story of Edison’s persistence in experimenting for a year and a half until he tried a carbonized filament and produced the electric light bulb.
But Nikola Tesla made his version of the incandescent light in just a couple of weeks, in time for the Chicago Fair. Edison had spitefully forbidden him to use his design so Tesla quickly made a bulb that did not infringe on Edison’s patent. And neatly in the same exposition, Nikola Tesla introduced the Alternating Current Power Plant with twelve 1000 horse-power two-phase generators and lit the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_Columbian_Exposition#Electricity_at_the_fair

LazyTeenager

Ogunseitan said that breaking a single light and breathing fumes would not automatically cause cancer, but could be a tipping point on top of chronic exposure to another carcinogen. And – noting that lead tastes sweet – he warned that small children could be harmed if they mistake the bright lights for candy.
———-
Utter rubbish! And I have nothing against incandescent globes.
Some LEDs are well known to contain arsenic. There is no substitute. This article has failed to assess the impact of this, taking into account the amounts involved.
The other components, nickel, copper, lead etc.. are standard in electronics. Thus includes incandescent globes.
The article originates from an attention-seeking neurotoxic chemophobe. The “little kiddies will eat LEDs because they taste like sweeties” is beyond absurd.

AlanG

Here in the UK you can still buy tungsten filament bulbs but they are now halogen bulbs which are 25% more efficient. They work fine. The only trouble is the life seems to be much less than the old bulbs.
I use halogens but mostly GE spiral CFLs. The latest CFLs start up quickly enough and the quality of the light is fine. I really can’t see anything wrong with them. I’m happy to have a lower electricity bill. The CFLs from 3 or more years ago were terrible so it’s no wonder they got a bad name. They took several minutes to get to full brightness and the light color was horrible. I have no use for LEDs but coming eventually will be OLED panels which are 100% efficient (not heat at all).

LazyTeenager

Ken Stewart says:
February 10, 2011 at 9:12 pm
In Oz we can’t buy old bulbs anymore, you can’t sell a house without an environmental rating which includes having eco lights, the new ones are dear, dim, and don’t last as long. What a great idea! What can we do next!
———-
Buy the high efficiency incandescents instead. 30% better.

LazyTeenager

Calvi36 says:
February 10, 2011 at 9:13 pm
Henry, we do not have a shortage of any energy! Why are electricity prices so high? Simply to create profits for shareholders. There is no shortage of energy and we have absolutely no need to conserve energy apart from to save our our personal bank accounts from the rape by greedy energy companies.
———–
Get a clue and look at the balance sheet of an energy company. Somehow you are forgetting that energy does not grow on trees; it needs to pay for fuel, labour, plant capital costs etc. Energy companies are not hugely profitable.
And you are also fogetting the profits pay for your superannuation.

LazyTeenager

Beth Cooper says:
February 10, 2011 at 9:34 pm
Here in Australia, former land of the free, we are forced to use these toxic mercury light globes by law. Many of us, it is likely, will suffer a similar fate to the composer Beethoven who died of lead poisoning. 🙁
————
Let me guess: your kitchen has had fluorescent tubes in it since the 1950’s. The only difference between these and CFLs is the size.
So you have been whining about fluorescent tubes all that time? I don’t think so.

FrankSW

Bring back those old big wooden cased radios or carriage and horses because the disposal was so much more environmentally friendly.
The argument here is clouded by those eco zeolots who love nothing better than to force others to tale action on their behalf (how many homes do you have Al).
Sure we would still be buying and using incandescents but if you just give me the option on cutting my lighting bill by half less extra investment up front I like most people will take it.
And just like the plastic radio cases of today the product is more complex and has more complex disposal issues but that is unfortuneately the price we pay for being clever clogs. Bring on LED bulbs and less power stations, just wish that we could skip the eco facist induced mercury lamp interlude on the way.

I remember as a kid the sweet taste of that nice lead flavored paint, but as I got older it became harder and harder to find.
Leave it to the Chinese to just put it in everything…

@ Robert Austin – 9:36 pm
Yes, I understand that halogens are less energy efficient than CFLs – the packets say ≈40W instead of 12 or so for CFL and >60 for incandescents (and yes I realise that halogens are also incandescents but saying ‘incandescent halogen’ all the time seemed like extra work for my very slow typing ability). However, that wasn’t really what I was asking about. What I was interested in is whether halogen bulbs have less obvious downsides in the way that CFLs have the mercury problem, questions over ballasts etc. For example, which particular halogen are we talking about and is there a toxicity issue if the bulb is broken? Does production use a resource that has other unwanted side effects on the environment where it’s extracted or could have been better used elsewhere if we’d stuck with boggo incandescents? That’s more the kind of thing what I was getting at. We all know that if you never look beyond the packaging CFLs would seem to be ideal, but that that isn’t the whole story. So what downsides, if any, do halogens have they you can’t tell from looking at the packet in the shop?

Patrick Davis

“Calvi36 says:
February 10, 2011 at 10:26 pm”
You don’t need a dam, all you need is a drop of 2m thereabouts for a turbine about 300mm in size. That’s more than enough for the average household.

JG

It’s sad that our tax dollars are paying for such drivel.
Everything can be toxic at the right dose.
At lower doses, many of these elements are essential for life.
Our bodies contain trace uranium and plutonium.
Does that mean we’ll fission if we have a really big group hug?