Do solar scientists STILL think that recent warming is too large to explain by solar activity?

 

Guest post by Alec Rawls

Study of the sun-climate link was energized in 1991 by Friis-Christensen and Lassen, who showed a strong correlation between solar-cycle length and global temperature:

This evidence that much of 20th century warming might be explained by solar activity was a thorn in the side of the newly powerful CO2 alarmists, who blamed recent warming on human burning of fossil fuels. That may be why Lassen and Thejll were quick to offer an update as soon as the 1997-98 El Nino made it look as if temperatures were suddenly skyrocketing:

The rapid temperature rise recently seems to call for a quantitative revisit of the solar activity-air temperature association …

We conclude that since around 1990 the type of Solar forcing that is described by the solar cycle length model no longer dominates the long-term variation of the Northern hemisphere land air temperature.

In other words, there was now too much warming to account for by solar cycle length, so some other factor, such as CO2, had to be driving the most recent warming. Of course everyone knew that the 1998 warming had actually been caused by ocean oscillations. Even lay people knew it. (El Nino storm tracks were all the news for six months here in California.)

When Lassen was writing his update in mid ’99, temperatures had already dropped back to 1990 levels. His 8 year update was outdated before it was published. 12 years later the 2010 El Nino year shows the same average temperature as the ’98 El Nino year, and if post-El Nino temperatures continue to fall off the way they did in 99, we’ll be back to 1990 temperatures by mid-2011. Isn’t it about time Friis-Cristensen, Lassen and Thejll issued another update? Do they still think there has been too much recent warming to be accounted for by solar activity?

The most important update may be the discovery that, where Lassen and his colleagues found a correlation between the length of a solar-cycle and temperatures over that cycle, others have been finding a much stronger correlation to temperatures over the next cycle (reported at WUWT this summer by David Archibald).

This further correlation has the advantage of allowing us make projections. As Archibald deciphers Solheim’s Norwegian:

since the period length of previous cycle (no 23) is at least 3 years longer than for cycle no 22, the temperature is expected to decrease by 0.6 – 1.8 degrees over the following 10-12 years.

Check out this alarming graphic from Stephen Strum of Frontier Weather Inc:

Lagged solar cycle length and temp, Stephen Strum, Frontier Weather Inc.

The snowed in Danes might like to see these projections, before they bet the rest of their climate eggs on a dangerous war against CO2.

From sins of omission to sins of commission

In 2007, solar scientist Mike Lockwood told the press about some findings he and Claus Frohlich had just published:

In 1985, the Sun did a U-turn in every respect. It no longer went in the right direction to contribute to global warming. We think it’s almost completely conclusive proof that the Sun does not account for the recent increases in global warming.

Actually, solar cycle 22, which began in 1986, was one of the most intense on record (part of the 20th century “grand maximum” that was the most active sun of the last 11 thousand years), and by almost every measure it was more intense than solar cycle 21. It had about the same sunspot numbers as cycle 21 (Hathaway 2006):

Sunspot prediction, NASA-Hathaway, 2006

Cycle 22 ran more solar flux than cycle 21 (via Nir Shaviv):

Cycle 22 was shorter than cycle 21 (from Joseph D’Aleo):

Solar cycle length, from Joseph D'Aleo

Perhaps most important is solar activity as measured (inversely) by the cosmic ray flux (which many think is mechanism by which solar activity drives climate). Here cycle 22 is THE most intense in the 60 year record, stronger even than cycle 19, the sunspot number king. From the Astronomical Society of Australia:

Neutron counts, Climaz Colorado, with sunspots, Univ. of Chicago

Some “U-turn in every respect.”

If Lockwood and Frohlich simply wanted to argue that the peak of the modern maximum of solar activity was between solar cycles 21 and 22 it would be unobjectionable. What difference does it make exactly when the peak was reached? But this is exactly where their real misdirection comes in. They claim that the peak of solar activity marks the point where any solar-climate effect should move from a warming to a cooling direction. Here is the abstract from their 2007 Royal Society article:

Abstract There is considerable evidence for solar influence on the Earth’s pre-industrial climate and the Sun may well have been a factor in post-industrial climate change in the first half of the last century. Here we show that over the past 20 years, all the trends in the Sun that could have had an influence on the Earth’s climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures.

In order to assert the need for some other explanation for recent warming (CO2), they are claiming that near peak levels of solar activity cannot have a warming effect once they are past the peak of the trend—that it is not the level of solar activity that causes warming or cooling, but the change in the level—which is absurd.

Ken Gregory has the most precise answer to this foolishness. His “climate smoothing” graphic shows how the temperature of a heat sink actually responds to a fall-off in forcing:

Gregory, climate smoothing, contra-Lockwood

“Note that the temperature continues to rise for several years after the Sun’s forcing starts to decrease.”

Gregory’s numbers here are arbitrary. It could be many years before a fall off in forcing causes temperatures to start rising. In the case of solar cycle 22—where if solar forcing was actually past its peak, it had only fallen off a tiny bit—the only way temperature would not keep rising over the whole solar cycle is if global temperature had already equilibrated to peak solar forcing, which Lockwood and Frohlich make no argument for.

The obvious interpretation of the data is that we never did reach equilibrium temperatures, allowing grand maximum levels of solar activity to continue to warm the planet until the sun suddenly went quiet. Now there’s an update for Lockwood and Frohlich. How about telling the public when solar activity really did do “U” (October 2005).

Usoskin, Benestad, and a host of other solar scientists also mistakenly assume that temperature is driven by trend instead of level

Maybe it is because so much of the evidence for a sun-climate link comes from correlation studies, which look for contemporaneous changes in solar activity and temperature. Surely the scientists who are doing these studies all understand that there is no possible mechanism by which the rate of change in solar activity can itself drive temperature. If temperature changes when solar activity changes, it is because the new LEVEL of solar activity has a warming or cooling effect.

Still, a remarkable number of these scientists say things like this (from Usoskin et al. 2005):

The long term trends in solar data and in northern hemisphere temperatures have a correlation coefficient of about 0.7 — .8 at a 94% — 98% confidence level. …

… Note that the most recent warming, since around 1975, has not been considered in the above correlations. During these last 30 years the total solar irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most warming episode must have another source.

Set aside the other problems with Usoskin’s study. (The temperature record he compared his solar data to is Michael Mann’s “hockey stick.”) How can he claim overwhelming evidence for a sun-climate link, while simultaneously insisting that steady peak levels of solar activity can’t create warming? If steady peak levels coincide with warming, it supposedly means the sun-climate link is now broken, so warming must be due to some other cause, like CO2.

It is hard to believe that scientists could make such a basic mistake, and Usoskin et al. certainly have powerful incentive to play dumb: to pretend that their correlation studies are finding physical mechanisms by which it is changes in the level of solar activity, rather than the levels themselves, that drive temperature. Just elide this important little nuance and presto, modern warming gets misattributed to CO2, allowing these researchers to stay on the good side of the CO2 alarmists who control their funding. Still, the old adage is often right: never attribute to bad motives what can just as well be explained by simple error.

And of course there can be both.

RealClimate exchange on trend vs. level confusion

Finally we arrive at the beginning, for me anyway. I first came across trend-level confusion 5 years ago at RealClimate. Rasmus Benestad was claiming that, because post 1960’s levels of Galactic Cosmic Radiation have not been trending downwards, GCR cannot be the cause of post-60’s warming.

But solar activity has been well above historical norms since the 40’s. It doesn’t matter what the trend is. The solar-wind is up. According to the GCR-cloud theory, that blows away the GCR, which blows away the clouds, creating warming. The solar wind doesn’t have to KEEP going up. It is the LEVEL that matters, not the trend. Holy cow. Benestad was looking at the wrong derivative (one instead of zero).

A few months later I took an opportunity to state my rebuttal as politely as possible, which elicited a response from Gavin Schmidt. Here is our 2005 exchange:

Me: Nice post, but the conclusion: “… solar activity has not increased since the 1950s and is therefore unlikely to be able to explain the recent warming,” would seem to be a non-sequitur.

What matters is not the trend in solar activity but the level. It does not have to KEEP going up to be a possible cause of warming. It just has to be high, and it has been since the forties.

Presumably you are looking at the modest drop in temperature in the fifties and sixties as inconsistent with a simple solar warming explanation, but it doesn’t have to be simple. Earth has heat sinks that could lead to measured effects being delayed, and other forcings may also be involved. The best evidence for causality would seem to be the long term correlations between solar activity and temperature change. Despite the differences between the different proxies for solar activity, isn’t the overall picture one of long term correlation to temperature?

[Response: You are correct in that you would expect a lag, however, the response to an increase to a steady level of forcing is a lagged increase in temperature and then a asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium. This is not what is seen. In fact, the rate of temperature increase is rising, and that is only compatible with a continuing increase in the forcing, i.e. from greenhouse gases. – gavin]

Gavin admits here that it’s the level of solar activity, not the trend in solar activity, that drives temperature. He’s just assuming that grand maximum levels of solar forcing should have bought the planet close to equilibrium temperature before post-80’s warming hit, but that assumption is completely unwarranted. If solar activity is driving climate (the hypothetical that Schmidt is analyzing), we know that it can push temperatures a lot higher than they are today. Surely Gavin knows about the Viking settlement of Greenland.

The rapid warming in the late 90’s could easily have been caused by the monster solar cycle 22 and there is no reason to think that another big cycle wouldn’t have brought more of the same. Two or three more cycle 22s and we might have been hauling out the longships, which would be great. No one has ever suggested that natural warming is anything but benign. Natural cooling bad, natural warming good. But alas, a longer grand maximum was not to be.

Gavin’s admission that it is level not trend that drives temperature change is important because ALL of the alarmist solar scientists are making the trend-level mistake. If they would admit that the correct framework is to look at the level of forcing and the lapse to equilibrium then they would be forced to look at the actual mechanisms of forcing and equilibration, instead of ignoring key forcings on the pretense that steady peak levels of forcing cannot cause warming.

That’s the big update that all of our solar scientists need to make. They need to stop tolerating this crazy charade that allows the CO2 alarmists to ignore the impact of decades of grand maximum solar activity and misattribute the resulting warming to fossil fuel burning. It is a scientific fraud of the most disastrous proportions, giving the eco-lunatics the excuse they need to unplug the modern world.

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maksimovich
January 3, 2011 4:37 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 3, 2011 at 3:19 pm
maksimovich says:
January 3, 2011 at 2:59 pm
“The dips in 1700, 1810, and 1985 are most likely due to volcanic activity
1895, of course.”
Which one ?
Probably Krakatoa as the dip starts in 1883:

That does not tell us that there is no solar signal in the historical record,merely that variations are dampened by volcanic forcing with competing temporal amplitudes .

tallbloke
January 3, 2011 4:48 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 3, 2011 at 2:24 pm
tallbloke says:
January 3, 2011 at 1:26 pm
“The standard variation of my sunspot numbers is higher than the GSN crew’s. What I dispute is the secular, regular, steady increase that is claimed.”
I’m not seeing this “secular, regular, steady increase” on this graph, can you point it out? http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/sidc-ssn/mean:124
typical bait and switch. The Krivova et al paper was based on GSN, and you ask about SIDC. Look at slide 4 of http://www.leif.org/research/Rudolf%20Wolf%20Was%20Right.pdf for GSN. Follow the red arrow.

Apologies, not intentional. I think you are probably right about C18th GSN being too low. I also think ocean heat content takes a long time to build up following the LIA, so I don’t have much of an issue with this. Krivova et al are still on the mark for the rise in activity since Maunder, it’s just that it happened sooner than GSN would indicate.
beng says:
January 3, 2011 at 2:03 pm
something that contains so little energy/mass & is stratified like the stratosphere is unlikely to drive anything — just the opposite, its characteristics are driven mostly from below.
Leif responds
Finally somebody who gets it.

Just as the troposphere is driven from below, i.e. by the ocean, which accumulate solar energy on multi-decadal timescales when the Sun has above average activity levels. Which it did for a lot of the latter C20th, no matter how much you try to flatten it out.
Which is why temps are slow to fall following the cresting of the solar activity in 2003 and the downturn in ocean heat content which is gathering pace since the Sun stayed well below average activity levels. If we go along with the lag du jour you mentioned of 7.5 years, we’d expect the surface to start getting colder about now…. which it is doing.

Bob Tisdale
January 3, 2011 4:57 pm

E.M.Smith says: “I have one, and it is fun to look at, but I would not use is as global / authoritative”
Sorry for the confusion. The point I was trying to make is that the North American Land Surface data graph used by Alec Rawls in the comparison to solar cycle length ends in 2007 or 2008 and that the correlation no longer exists:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/lagged-solar-cycle-length-and-temp-stephen-strum-frontier-weather-inc.png
It is unlikely that you have an unadjusted North American LST dataset that drops to levels that are lower than the early 20th Century, as would be required to maintain the claimed correlation. So I don’t understand why the graph is in the post.

Bob Tisdale
January 3, 2011 5:25 pm

Frank Lansner wrote in reply to Leif, “The solar graph shows rather the same level 1940 and 2000, which is imilar to the other graphs. This – THE – point is in no way changed beacause i use Hoyt and Schatten.” And your comment was about this graph:
http://www.klimadebat.dk/forum/vedhaeftninger/gissdivergence.gif
You are once again presenting misleading information in a failed attempt to discredit GISS, Frank. The GISS LOTI data is a global dataset, but none of the other datasets you’re comparing it to are global. The graph is obviously wrong and misleading. A group of people who blog here, and at Lucia’s, and at Steve McIntyre’s Climate Audit, have picked apart the GISS data and the GISS code, and do not find these major errors you attempt to portray with your graphs.
Also, I disagree with what you wrote to Leif. In that graph, you are also attempting to use the obsolete Hoyt and Schatten data to show a correlation in the early part of the data and a divergence of the GISS data in the latter part. The point is, since solar minimums are now considered to be relatively flat (not as presented by Hoyt and Schatten), not one of that unusual mix of temperature datasets you present would correlate with solar in the beginning of the data either.

January 3, 2011 6:05 pm

ferd berple says:
January 3, 2011 at 3:13 pm
12:30:60 is an obvious resonance between the orbits of Jupiter, Saturn and the PDO, with the angular momentum of the sun around the center of mass of the solar system “stirring up” the sun and driving changes in the TSI.

Finally someone who gets it.
Although tallbloke, Cheifo, Stephen Wilde and others are very clear and correct on the important points.
Here is a chart that puts together the main temperature drivers, it clearly shows how solar activity rises to a level that will sustain a thicker atmosphere (pos AO & NAO) around every 170 years before declining as we are seeing now. The solar power wave can be broken by grand minima which makes the pattern not show up as regular using a Fourier method etc. Understanding what drives grand minima is the key as it is truly the only variable in the system.
The solar induced PDO wave is in the background, once again not variable but super important.

January 3, 2011 6:33 pm

Frank Lansner says:
January 3, 2011 at 3:22 pm
Leif, When i write : “There is NO way we can say for sure that a steady HIGH level of solar activity should not be leading to some temperature increase over more decades (!!)”
.. do you agree or not?

Too many negatives for me. If you meant: A steady high level of solar activity would lead to some temperature increase, then, of course, I agree and nobody would disagree. But, if this is the case, why not say it positively as I just did?
Frank Lansner says:
January 3, 2011 at 3:26 pm
the point we are discussing is the Solar activity on average has not risen since perhaps 1940 unlike some supposed indicators of temperatures.
If you are saying that solar activity has decreased since the late 1950s, then we have common ground. And since temperatures have increased, it should be clear to even the most rabid solar enthusiast tha the Sun is not a major driver of climate.
Please go for the central points.
You did not express the central point(s). If you are saying that your central point is that the Sun is not a major driver of climate, then just state that up front, clearly, and simply.
Robuk says:
January 3, 2011 at 4:07 pm
Why don`t you add CO2 to this graph, don`t bother I`ve already done it.
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/bobclive/leif4.jpg

So you demonstrate that temperature change is not by the Sun. This is, however, old hat.
tallbloke says:
January 3, 2011 at 4:35 pm
But the Sporer does. Maybe that’s what drove the Vikings out of Greenland at the end of the C15th?
Nope, what drove the Vikings was a steadily deteriorating climate long before the Spoerer, starting already around 1200. http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/lia/end_of_vikings_greenland.html
maksimovich says:
January 3, 2011 at 4:37 pm
That does not tell us that there is no solar signal in the historical record,merely that variations are dampened by volcanic forcing with competing temporal amplitudes .
It tells us that the dip in the record in 1895 was probably not solar, and that casts doubt on the other dips as well.
tallbloke says:
January 3, 2011 at 4:48 pm
Apologies, not intentional.
Accepted, but be more careful before shooting mouth off 🙂
Krivova et al are still on the mark for the rise in activity since Maunder, it’s just that it happened sooner than GSN would indicate.
This is where I beg to differ. They assume that activity essentially went away. I think we were having a full-blown L&P effect which means that the magnetic field was still there [I can line with it being a tad lower – on par with today or what we might see in a couple of years], cosmic ray modulation was still there, TSI was not much lower, BUT the process that concentrates specks and pores to sunspots was not operating efficiently enough to create visible spots, hence the deep [but only apparent] minimum of sunspots.
beng says:
January 3, 2011 at 2:03 pm
when the Sun has above average activity levels. Which it did for a lot of the latter C20th, no matter how much you try to flatten it out.
The Sun in the latter part of the 20th was as active as in the latter part of the 18th.
Bob Tisdale says:
January 3, 2011 at 4:57 pm
Alec Rawls says:
January 3, 2011 at 5:18 pm
there should be no lag in seeing the hypothesized solar warming. […] we should see that warming effect in each year’s ocean heat content.
one would think so.
If we are looking at surface temperatures, then there does seem to be a lag before solar effects show up.
so, lag #2
Then there is the lag between the onset of a steady level of forcing and the equilibration of planetary temperature in response to that new level of forcing.
Lag #3.
With enough lags you can fit anything.
Bob Tisdale says:
January 3, 2011 at 5:25 pm
The point is, since solar minimums are now considered to be relatively flat (not as presented by Hoyt and Schatten), not one of that unusual mix of temperature datasets you present would correlate with solar in the beginning of the data either.
This is what I got out of it too. It would help if people would just be straightforward and say up front what their agenda is, what they are trying to prove [or disprove], and then present whatever ‘evidence’ they think they have.

Bob Tisdale
January 3, 2011 7:16 pm

Alec Rawls: Regarding time lags, the seasonal lag for SST is 2 to 3 months, if memory serves me well. I haven’t plotted it in a while.
You could use the sea level data at the KNMI Climate Explorer to approximate thermal lag of the southern hemisphere (more ocean), but you’d have to consider the seasonal contribution of glacier runoff, etc. That should also approximate the OHC seasonal time lag.

Lucien
January 3, 2011 7:19 pm

How can we tax the sun and make the people feeling guilty ?
Co2 is much more convenient !
Forget the sun and stick to Co2 !

January 3, 2011 7:26 pm

The monthly Penticton AU adjusted F10.7 flux data is in. December continues the very flat trajectory of this important metric. When compared with SC20, SC24 is looking very weak at present.
Leif states that normal solar activity continues during grand minima but with an absence of spots (L&P, what ever that is?). If the current trend continues this will falsify his argument for all time. EUV values are following the same trend along with their influence on the atmosphere.

Dave Springer
January 3, 2011 7:35 pm

Alec Rawls says:
January 3, 2011 at 5:18 pm
“There are two different “lags” to consider.”
I’d guess two hundred different lags not just two. The thing about the ocean is that we know almost nothing about what the bottom half is doing and that portion alone has 500 times the thermal mass of the atmosphere. It’s merely presumed to be constant but if all Trenberth’s missing heat were evenly distributed in it there wouldn’t be enough temperature rise to detect. The surface temperature down to a few hundred meters is all weather related so knowing that down to a tenth of a degree doesn’t tell us anything. The average temperature of the whole ocean top to bottom is 4 degrees C and that tells us something – it tells us that the average surface temperature of the earth over a whole interglacial/glacial period of 120 thousand years is 4 degrees C as that length of time is certainly long enough for the deep water below the thermocline to take on the average temperature of the surface layer.

January 3, 2011 8:18 pm

The 4°C is the densest water. The bottom will always be that temperature unless the whole water column is higher than that.

phlogiston
January 3, 2011 8:32 pm

Brian H says:
January 3, 2011 at 8:18 pm
The 4°C is the densest water. The bottom will always be that temperature unless the whole water column is higher than that.
Actually (sorry to be pedantic) 4C is the density minimum for fresh water but not sea water, where it is close to zero. (Sea ice still floats – it dumps its salt, making surrounding water more salty.) However the deep ocean water asymptotes down to around 2-3 C.
I agree with Dave Springer that the ocean, where almost all climate heat resides, especially the deep ocean and the THC, will always be the spanner in the works for those who claim that direct “forcing” or “driving” from the sun is a complete and sufficient explanation of climate variation. There are nonlinear forced oscillations of the ocean by the sun and orbital factors over a wide range of timescales. These interact with real time solar oscillations to give weather and climate. The atmosphere is a passenger in between the two real players in climate heat, the sun and the ocean.

January 3, 2011 9:45 pm

Geoff Sharp says:
January 3, 2011 at 7:26 pm
When compared with SC20, SC24 is looking very weak at present.
As it should, as it is predicted to be much weaker. The Active Region Count [and the sunspot number is falling below what we would expect from F10.7, confirming the weakening of sunspots as L&P predicts. http://www.leif.org/research/ARC-Updating.png shows this very clearly.
states that normal solar activity continues during grand minima but with an absence of spots (L&P, what ever that is?). If the current trend continues this will falsify his argument for all time.
What trend? F10.7 is holding while sots are getting weaker and weaker, may soon disappear [L&P]. If they do, we have a Grand Minimum; if they don’t, we don’t have a Grand Minimum.
Alec Rawls says:
January 3, 2011 at 9:02 pm
Something even Leif and I can agree on?
EEEEHAWWWW!!!!! Stanford just clobbered Virginia Tech.

Indeed.

January 3, 2011 10:07 pm

Geoff Sharp says:
January 3, 2011 at 7:26 pm
(L&P, what ever that is?).
To remind you what L&P is:
1) measurements of magnetic fields and intensity of sunspot by L&P:
http://www.leif.org/research/Livingston%20and%20Penn.png
2) sunspot number is falling increasingly below what we would expect from F10.7 based on the relationship valid 1947-1990:
http://www.leif.org/research/F107-SSN-Yearly-1951-Now.png and
http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/news/2010ScienceMeeting/doc/Session6/6.03_Tapping_F10.7.pdf

January 3, 2011 10:35 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 3, 2011 at 9:45 pm
Geoff Sharp says:
January 3, 2011 at 7:26 pm
When compared with SC20, SC24 is looking very weak at present.
———————————-
As it should, as it is predicted to be much weaker. The Active Region Count [and the sunspot number is falling below what we would expect from F10.7, confirming the weakening of sunspots as L&P predicts.

Weaker than you predicted I would suggest. If you count sunspots as they used to the sunspot record is following the F10.7 flux.
states that normal solar activity continues during grand minima but with an absence of spots (L&P, what ever that is?). If the current trend continues this will falsify his argument for all time.
—————————————————-
What trend? F10.7 is holding while sots are getting weaker and weaker, may soon disappear [L&P]. If they do, we have a Grand Minimum; if they don’t, we don’t have a Grand Minimum.

But you said we will not have a grand minimum not long ago?? The F10.7 trend is flat, not rising, not ramping up etc.

January 3, 2011 11:13 pm

Geoff Sharp says:
January 3, 2011 at 10:35 pm
If you count sunspots as they used to the sunspot record is following the F10.7 flux.
They have not done that for 134 years ever since we [Wolfer] discovered that the old way [Wolf’s] was not a good way of counting them as it is not reproducible. And it is evident from your own graph that F10.7 does not follow the sunspot number [the latter just took a dive while F10.7 didn’t as you point out]. Last, the only one who really know how to count sunspots ‘as they used too’ is Hans-Uwe Keller, who has been counting for several years now using Wolf’s original, handheld telescope with 40mm aperture and magnification x40. Keller’s k-factor with that old scope is 1.1 so is very close to what Wolf would have counted [but we are still uncertain because we don’t know where difference between 1.1 and 1.0 comes from – perhaps different Snellen ratios]. Since you have made no comparisons with anything, the LSC is free floating without any ties to reality.
But you said we will not have a grand minimum not long ago??
No, I said that I didn’t think we would have a Grand minimum [although I would love to be wrong], but if L&P are correct [which time will tell] then we might get a Grand Minimum with no spots visible.
The F10.7 trend is flat, not rising, not ramping up etc.
It is certainly on the rise: http://www.leif.org/research/TSI-SORCE-2008-now.png
F10.7 consists of two components: gyro-synchrotron radiation [directly over active regions] and a ‘slowly varying background due to bremsstrahlung by free electrons in the corona. The latter is what you see if you follow the ‘bottom’ of the F10.7 graph [I put in a line hugging the bottom], and you can clearly see its steady rising ramp-up.

January 4, 2011 12:31 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 3, 2011 at 11:13 pm
No, I said that I didn’t think we would have a Grand minimum [although I would love to be wrong], but if L&P are correct [which time will tell] then we might get a Grand Minimum with no spots visible.
No , I distinctly remember you saying SC24 will not be a grand minimum. It might be worth tracking if I can be bothered.

January 4, 2011 12:45 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 3, 2011 at 2:24 pm
Yet another idea that cannot be falsified, it seems.
It is not an idea, hypothesis, theory, or reconstruction, it is just simple set of easily verifiable records. Since there are no miracles in science, both can’t be right: your (et al) reconstructions is no good!

January 4, 2011 1:38 am

Bob T… ALL solar graphs shows pretty much the same activity in 2000 as in 1940, so your focus on the outdated Hoyt and Schatten (which we have already discussed in this debate!!) – is not changing anything. And then I showed an old where I could have plotted in Hadcrut, GISS, NCDC or what ever, the ground based land-graph is there a graf to show that the land graphs certainly normally shows warming! Its not some specific GISS attack or whatever you think.

January 4, 2011 1:59 am

beng says: January 3, 2011 at 2:03 pm
something that contains so little energy/mass & is stratified like the stratosphere is unlikely to drive anything — just the opposite, its characteristics are driven mostly from below.
Events in the stratosphere are significant onlyduring polar winters, when difference in insolation + Coriolis force generate polar vortex. Sudden stratospheric warming SSW is regular occurrence in the Arctic, while in the last 50 years occurred only once (2002) in the Antarctica.
There reason for this is rising of a plume of warm air, caused by the upwelling of the warm North Atlantic drift current’s waters, mainly in the area of Labrador sea. Dome of warm air rising upwards pushes into lower levels of stratosphere causing SSW. Similar effect is result of the sporadic Kamchatka and Aleutian volcanic eruptions.
As far as climatic changes are concern this matters since the regularity and normal configuration of the Rosby planetary wave is interrupted, mainly affecting higher latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere.

January 4, 2011 2:01 am

Leif, i wrote:“There is NO way we can say for sure that a steady HIGH level of solar activity should not be leading to some temperature increase over more decades (!!) .. do you agree or not?”
And you answer: “Too many negatives for me. If you meant: A steady high level of solar activity would lead to some temperature increase, then, of course, I agree and nobody would disagree. But, if this is the case, why not say it positively as I just did?”
Now THIS is a central part of the discussion. IF the average solar activity was higher 1940-2000 than normal, THEN it is not impossible that we have higher temperatures in 2000 than 1940 due to Solar input.
This may not explain ALL the difference between “flat” Solar activity 1940-2000, but then we must not forget that the “temperatures” are certainly polluted by UHI and warming adjustments. I personnaly think that the best long term temperatures we have are the global ocean temperatures which shows less warming. They have the problem that they are more slowly changing, true, BUT they are rid of UHI and siting problems.
Here I have shown difference in temperature data for NH using pre 1984 (AGW) data averaged from many sources, and extended with average UAH+RSS NH data just and then I compare with Hadcrut NH:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/PERPLEX/fig71.jpg
(NH simply because NH data are much better represented pre 1984).
This is (obviously) not an attempt to be quantitatively accurate as some might think, no its just to show the bigger picture, that temperature data normally used is not really a solid proof of anything, just an indicator with a lower robustness.
***
Then you say, Leif: “If you are saying that solar activity has decreased since the late 1950s, then we have common ground. ”
YEAH YEAH!!
But you continue: “And since temperatures have increased, it should be clear to even the most rabid solar enthusiast tha the Sun is not a major driver of climate.”
nono…
K.R. Frank

January 4, 2011 2:19 am

– But Leif, i think its more correct to say that Solar activity 1940-2000 is rather flat rather than to define it as “falling”?
http://www.leif.org/research/TSI-recon4.png
K.R. Frank

January 4, 2011 2:23 am

And Leif, from you graph, its rather clear that the 1940-2000 general level simply is higher than normal:
http://www.leif.org/research/TSI-recon4.png
– And therefore its certainly possible (no double negations…) that a longer period with pretty much the same high Solar activity could result in increasing temperatures.
In fact, you have to be a “most rabid” denier to rule this out 🙂

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