Guest post by Alec Rawls
Study of the sun-climate link was energized in 1991 by Friis-Christensen and Lassen, who showed a strong correlation between solar-cycle length and global temperature:
This evidence that much of 20th century warming might be explained by solar activity was a thorn in the side of the newly powerful CO2 alarmists, who blamed recent warming on human burning of fossil fuels. That may be why Lassen and Thejll were quick to offer an update as soon as the 1997-98 El Nino made it look as if temperatures were suddenly skyrocketing:
The rapid temperature rise recently seems to call for a quantitative revisit of the solar activity-air temperature association …
We conclude that since around 1990 the type of Solar forcing that is described by the solar cycle length model no longer dominates the long-term variation of the Northern hemisphere land air temperature.
In other words, there was now too much warming to account for by solar cycle length, so some other factor, such as CO2, had to be driving the most recent warming. Of course everyone knew that the 1998 warming had actually been caused by ocean oscillations. Even lay people knew it. (El Nino storm tracks were all the news for six months here in California.)
When Lassen was writing his update in mid ’99, temperatures had already dropped back to 1990 levels. His 8 year update was outdated before it was published. 12 years later the 2010 El Nino year shows the same average temperature as the ’98 El Nino year, and if post-El Nino temperatures continue to fall off the way they did in 99, we’ll be back to 1990 temperatures by mid-2011. Isn’t it about time Friis-Cristensen, Lassen and Thejll issued another update? Do they still think there has been too much recent warming to be accounted for by solar activity?
The most important update may be the discovery that, where Lassen and his colleagues found a correlation between the length of a solar-cycle and temperatures over that cycle, others have been finding a much stronger correlation to temperatures over the next cycle (reported at WUWT this summer by David Archibald).
This further correlation has the advantage of allowing us make projections. As Archibald deciphers Solheim’s Norwegian:
since the period length of previous cycle (no 23) is at least 3 years longer than for cycle no 22, the temperature is expected to decrease by 0.6 – 1.8 degrees over the following 10-12 years.
Check out this alarming graphic from Stephen Strum of Frontier Weather Inc:
The snowed in Danes might like to see these projections, before they bet the rest of their climate eggs on a dangerous war against CO2.
From sins of omission to sins of commission
In 2007, solar scientist Mike Lockwood told the press about some findings he and Claus Frohlich had just published:
In 1985, the Sun did a U-turn in every respect. It no longer went in the right direction to contribute to global warming. We think it’s almost completely conclusive proof that the Sun does not account for the recent increases in global warming.
Actually, solar cycle 22, which began in 1986, was one of the most intense on record (part of the 20th century “grand maximum” that was the most active sun of the last 11 thousand years), and by almost every measure it was more intense than solar cycle 21. It had about the same sunspot numbers as cycle 21 (Hathaway 2006):
Cycle 22 ran more solar flux than cycle 21 (via Nir Shaviv):
Cycle 22 was shorter than cycle 21 (from Joseph D’Aleo):
Perhaps most important is solar activity as measured (inversely) by the cosmic ray flux (which many think is mechanism by which solar activity drives climate). Here cycle 22 is THE most intense in the 60 year record, stronger even than cycle 19, the sunspot number king. From the Astronomical Society of Australia:
Some “U-turn in every respect.”
If Lockwood and Frohlich simply wanted to argue that the peak of the modern maximum of solar activity was between solar cycles 21 and 22 it would be unobjectionable. What difference does it make exactly when the peak was reached? But this is exactly where their real misdirection comes in. They claim that the peak of solar activity marks the point where any solar-climate effect should move from a warming to a cooling direction. Here is the abstract from their 2007 Royal Society article:
Abstract There is considerable evidence for solar influence on the Earth’s pre-industrial climate and the Sun may well have been a factor in post-industrial climate change in the first half of the last century. Here we show that over the past 20 years, all the trends in the Sun that could have had an influence on the Earth’s climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures.
In order to assert the need for some other explanation for recent warming (CO2), they are claiming that near peak levels of solar activity cannot have a warming effect once they are past the peak of the trend—that it is not the level of solar activity that causes warming or cooling, but the change in the level—which is absurd.
Ken Gregory has the most precise answer to this foolishness. His “climate smoothing” graphic shows how the temperature of a heat sink actually responds to a fall-off in forcing:
“Note that the temperature continues to rise for several years after the Sun’s forcing starts to decrease.”
Gregory’s numbers here are arbitrary. It could be many years before a fall off in forcing causes temperatures to start rising. In the case of solar cycle 22—where if solar forcing was actually past its peak, it had only fallen off a tiny bit—the only way temperature would not keep rising over the whole solar cycle is if global temperature had already equilibrated to peak solar forcing, which Lockwood and Frohlich make no argument for.
The obvious interpretation of the data is that we never did reach equilibrium temperatures, allowing grand maximum levels of solar activity to continue to warm the planet until the sun suddenly went quiet. Now there’s an update for Lockwood and Frohlich. How about telling the public when solar activity really did do “U” (October 2005).
Usoskin, Benestad, and a host of other solar scientists also mistakenly assume that temperature is driven by trend instead of level
Maybe it is because so much of the evidence for a sun-climate link comes from correlation studies, which look for contemporaneous changes in solar activity and temperature. Surely the scientists who are doing these studies all understand that there is no possible mechanism by which the rate of change in solar activity can itself drive temperature. If temperature changes when solar activity changes, it is because the new LEVEL of solar activity has a warming or cooling effect.
Still, a remarkable number of these scientists say things like this (from Usoskin et al. 2005):
The long term trends in solar data and in northern hemisphere temperatures have a correlation coefficient of about 0.7 — .8 at a 94% — 98% confidence level. …
… Note that the most recent warming, since around 1975, has not been considered in the above correlations. During these last 30 years the total solar irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most warming episode must have another source.
Set aside the other problems with Usoskin’s study. (The temperature record he compared his solar data to is Michael Mann’s “hockey stick.”) How can he claim overwhelming evidence for a sun-climate link, while simultaneously insisting that steady peak levels of solar activity can’t create warming? If steady peak levels coincide with warming, it supposedly means the sun-climate link is now broken, so warming must be due to some other cause, like CO2.
It is hard to believe that scientists could make such a basic mistake, and Usoskin et al. certainly have powerful incentive to play dumb: to pretend that their correlation studies are finding physical mechanisms by which it is changes in the level of solar activity, rather than the levels themselves, that drive temperature. Just elide this important little nuance and presto, modern warming gets misattributed to CO2, allowing these researchers to stay on the good side of the CO2 alarmists who control their funding. Still, the old adage is often right: never attribute to bad motives what can just as well be explained by simple error.
And of course there can be both.
RealClimate exchange on trend vs. level confusion
Finally we arrive at the beginning, for me anyway. I first came across trend-level confusion 5 years ago at RealClimate. Rasmus Benestad was claiming that, because post 1960’s levels of Galactic Cosmic Radiation have not been trending downwards, GCR cannot be the cause of post-60’s warming.
But solar activity has been well above historical norms since the 40’s. It doesn’t matter what the trend is. The solar-wind is up. According to the GCR-cloud theory, that blows away the GCR, which blows away the clouds, creating warming. The solar wind doesn’t have to KEEP going up. It is the LEVEL that matters, not the trend. Holy cow. Benestad was looking at the wrong derivative (one instead of zero).
A few months later I took an opportunity to state my rebuttal as politely as possible, which elicited a response from Gavin Schmidt. Here is our 2005 exchange:
Me: Nice post, but the conclusion: “… solar activity has not increased since the 1950s and is therefore unlikely to be able to explain the recent warming,” would seem to be a non-sequitur.
What matters is not the trend in solar activity but the level. It does not have to KEEP going up to be a possible cause of warming. It just has to be high, and it has been since the forties.
Presumably you are looking at the modest drop in temperature in the fifties and sixties as inconsistent with a simple solar warming explanation, but it doesn’t have to be simple. Earth has heat sinks that could lead to measured effects being delayed, and other forcings may also be involved. The best evidence for causality would seem to be the long term correlations between solar activity and temperature change. Despite the differences between the different proxies for solar activity, isn’t the overall picture one of long term correlation to temperature?
[Response: You are correct in that you would expect a lag, however, the response to an increase to a steady level of forcing is a lagged increase in temperature and then a asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium. This is not what is seen. In fact, the rate of temperature increase is rising, and that is only compatible with a continuing increase in the forcing, i.e. from greenhouse gases. – gavin]
Gavin admits here that it’s the level of solar activity, not the trend in solar activity, that drives temperature. He’s just assuming that grand maximum levels of solar forcing should have bought the planet close to equilibrium temperature before post-80’s warming hit, but that assumption is completely unwarranted. If solar activity is driving climate (the hypothetical that Schmidt is analyzing), we know that it can push temperatures a lot higher than they are today. Surely Gavin knows about the Viking settlement of Greenland.
The rapid warming in the late 90’s could easily have been caused by the monster solar cycle 22 and there is no reason to think that another big cycle wouldn’t have brought more of the same. Two or three more cycle 22s and we might have been hauling out the longships, which would be great. No one has ever suggested that natural warming is anything but benign. Natural cooling bad, natural warming good. But alas, a longer grand maximum was not to be.
Gavin’s admission that it is level not trend that drives temperature change is important because ALL of the alarmist solar scientists are making the trend-level mistake. If they would admit that the correct framework is to look at the level of forcing and the lapse to equilibrium then they would be forced to look at the actual mechanisms of forcing and equilibration, instead of ignoring key forcings on the pretense that steady peak levels of forcing cannot cause warming.
That’s the big update that all of our solar scientists need to make. They need to stop tolerating this crazy charade that allows the CO2 alarmists to ignore the impact of decades of grand maximum solar activity and misattribute the resulting warming to fossil fuel burning. It is a scientific fraud of the most disastrous proportions, giving the eco-lunatics the excuse they need to unplug the modern world.







Great article. Very informative.
Ripper says: “They went bloody close in real terms after E.M. added the deleted thermometers back in.”
I didn’t see a long-term graph (since 1880) of U.S. temperature anomalies in Chiefio’s post to contradict what I wrote earlier. Was there one?
tallbloke says:
January 3, 2011 at 4:20 am
Please could Leif tell us what start and end sunspot numbers he gets for the linear trend on his reconstruction between those dates.
1835-2003: 0.09+/-0.07; R^2=0.0095 not significant
The choice of dates often changes such non-significant trends. E.g.
1835-2010: 0.02+/-0.07; R^2=0.0005 even less significant
Bob Tisdale says:
January 3, 2011 at 4:44 am
Leif: In past comments on prior posts, haven’t you disputed or disproved the arguments presented in Alec Rawl’s post?
‘disproved’ is a big word. But in essence: yes.
frozenfuture says:
January 3, 2011 at 4:44 am
A marvelous piece of work Alec. Not many have an understanding as you.
Thank God.
Carla says:
January 3, 2011 at 5:35 am
Why are some solar cycles longer than others? Why are there no two or three solar cycles alike? I know similar but not alike. Why why why..
Because the sun is a messy place
Martin Lewitt says:
January 3, 2011 at 5:58 am
The GSN is only used to reconstruct the solar irradiance from the Maunder Minimum to the present.
The GSN is used to calibrate the model.
Bob Tisdale says:
January 3, 2011 at 6:07 am
An Inquirer says:
January 3, 2011 at 7:00 am
Would someone be willing to update the first graph which is a 1991 Friis-Christensen and Lassen chart showing trends in cycle length versus temperatures anomalies through 1990? I suspect that the strong correlation breaks down after 1990.
http://www.leif.org/research/Cycle%20Length%20Temperature%20Correlation.pdf
I’ve never understood why Friis-Christensen and Lassen felt the need to declare that something other than solar had been responsible for late 20th century warming, other than to appease the powers that be that review/publish their work. If you look closely, their graph is never 100% perfect correlation. 1890-1920 is a fine example where they don’t seem to be all that correlated over that particular small time period. 1 decade doesn’t undo over a century of reliable and decently correlated data, that’s absurb. How’s the graph looking now? Pretty darn good….
Leif Svalgaard says:
January 3, 2011 at 2:22 am
[Terry says:
January 3, 2011 at 1:33 am
“But the graphs from Stephen Strum above http://icecap.us/images/uploads/SolarCycleLengthandGlobalTemperatureAnomalies1.pdf look pretty interesting to me.
Certainly has the potential of been falsified in the next couple of years if temps don’t fall 1C.”]
“I think his argument: “Since net solar radiation is slightly higher during periods of heightened sunspot activity (and lower during periods of little sunspot activity), the combination of long solar cycles and low sunspot numbers results in cumulatively more months on a decadal time scale with below average net solar radiation” is wrong in its implication, namely that we will get less energy. Imagine a cycle of 10 years with sunspot number = 100, now stretch it to 20 years and lower the sunspot number to 50. We still get the same amount, namely 10*100 = 20*50 ‘sunspot-years’.”
The problem with this Leif, is that because our climate is dynamic system it is the amount of energy at any instant in time which is important, not the average. We also need to know about how other factors like magnetic field/solar wind e.t.c. vary over very short time-scales if we are to start to see the effects on weather/climate.
The suns activity and it’s relationship to our weather has been a headscratcher for quite sometime now. Maybe we need to start looking at this differently
Seems to me folks are trying to correlate/causate sunspot activity with Earths climate. But WHAT IF sunspot activity is not an affect but an effect?
For example, Leif made a statement at 2:22am thus…
That is a perfectly true statement if taken as an ‘affect’. But I’d like folks to consider the following
The above happens in Australia often enough. Long periods of drought may be broken by some inordinately heavy rain in December, though the yearly totals are unexceptional.
So a (with kind regards to E M Smith) “dig here” may well be worthwhile regards solar cycle lengths.
“…they are claiming that near peak levels of solar activity cannot have a warming effect once they are past the peak of the trend—that it is not the level of solar activity that causes warming or cooling, but the change in the level—which is absurd.”
Could be both. Higher solar wind speeds generally correlate to higher surface temperatures on weekly/monthly basis, but the uplifts in SW from through 1998 and 2010 both have absolute levels that are very average, and at first sight disproportional to the amount of surface warming compared to the SW speed and surface temp`s in say 2003.
http://omniweb.gsfc.nasa.gov/form/dx1.html
“Leif Svalgaard says:
January 2, 2011 at 10:49 pm
grienpies says:
January 2, 2011 at 10:38 pm
Since solar activity is down now we should see a drop in global temperature.
This drop should big enough that they can’t hide the decline…
Solar activity has been decreasing for a couple of decades now, and so has global temperature. Am I wrong?”
Leif, had you read Leroux, you’d know that atmospheric circulation has been entering a rapid mode since the 1970s. Only the inane temperature fixation by post-modern cephalopod climatologists has forgotten that temperatures are not in themselves a reliable climate indicator.
Tenuc says:
January 3, 2011 at 8:03 am
The problem with this Leif, is that because our climate is dynamic system it is the amount of energy at any instant in time which is important, not the average.
I agree completely. Yet people keep talking about ‘lags’, ‘storage’, ‘levels’ and such. These things are convenient to play with to get correlations to look better. Just add an appropriate [even better: variable] lag.
TomRude says:
January 3, 2011 at 8:35 am
temperatures are not in themselves a reliable climate indicator.
My cold butt claims otherwise. I lived some time in Greenland and got the same message there. Now with global warming, even California [where I now live] has become too cold. Next stop: Tahiti, perhaps.
“Al Gored says:
January 3, 2011 at 12:13 am
E.M. Smith – Very, very interesting post! The concept of a variable thickness of our atmosphere never occurred to me before but makes perfect sense. Yet another piece of this complex moving puzzle to consider.”
It is the various atmospheric heights that matter most for pressure distribution in the troposphere and I have suggested how ALL the heights must vary to achieve the climate changes that we see.
I have been constructing the entire scenario piece by piece for some time. The troposphere and thermosphere must change temperature in the opposite direction to stratosphere and mesosphere whether the sun be more active or less active.
Latest version can be found here:
http://www.irishweatheronline.com/2011/01/how-sun-could-control-earths.html
“How The Sun Could Control Earth’s Temperature”
I have amended it slightly to deal with Leif’s objections which were to the effect that solar protons alone could not produce the required effect. Instead I now propose that it is the entire package of solar reactions with molecules at the top of the atmosphere that produces the observed outcome.
Furthermore it is a matter of atmospheric chemistry and not radiative physics so objections based solely on radiative physics are not valid.
BTW, there are spots very close to the equator today. Possibly left over #23 spots?
@Tenuc says:
January 3, 2011 at 8:03 am
“We also need to know about how other factors like magnetic field/solar wind e.t.c. vary over very short time-scales if we are to start to see the effects on weather/climate.”
Exactly, especially in N.H. winter.
My cold butt claims otherwise. I lived some time in Greenland and got the same message there. Now with global warming, even California [where I now live] has become too cold. Next stop: Tahiti, perhaps.
A new weather index is born! 😉
When temperatures cool due to declining solar activity, the warmes may acknowledge the cooling cycle but say that we now have 20-30 years to prepare for the coming warming and just think how hot it is going to be in 30 years.
Thus, no amount of cooling will convince the warmers that there is any possibility but AGW.
LazyTeenager says:
Alec gets breathless
————-
And LazyTeenager enlessly posts fragments but never manages to make a coherent arugment while frothing….
However I am going to guess that it is a fairly small effect that can be ignored on decadal time scales.
You seem to do this ‘guesing’ thing rather a lot.
While it can be helpful for finding interesting things to explore, it’s terrible as a filter for finding truth. The ocean has hundreds of years cyclicalities in it as the overturning current has to cover the whole planet at a walking pace. Surface waters of the Pacific can take decades to move from the equator to the North Pole. Ignoring the ocean is A Very Bad Thing…
I think/suspect
These are two VERY different processes, best kept very far from each other. Mixing them leads to large errors.
that scientists are not unaware
Double Negative Alert (kind of like an “intruder alert”)… it starts to holler whenever someone is trying to sound over intelligent while mangling the language and hiding what they are actually trying to say. (Exception made for German native speakers at it is a normal construct, partial exception for French native speakers if they use it in the “ne verb pas” format… but LT seems a native English speaker…)
the IPCC has a section
Apeal To Authority Alert And a politically driven non-scientific authority at that. Shows a lack of care in filtering what crawls into the mind and poor evaluation skills.
Rest of emissions flushed, too many contaminants detected in thought stream…
TomRude says:
January 3, 2011 at 9:17 am
“My cold butt claims otherwise.”
A new weather index is born! 😉
Works for me…
MattN says:
January 3, 2011 at 8:55 am
BTW, there are spots very close to the equator today. Possibly left over #23 spots?
No, they have the magnetic signature of SC24. Perhaps leftover SC22 🙂
Geoff says:
January 3, 2011 at 9:22 am
When temperatures cool due to declining solar activity
For all you solar enthusiasts, here is what you get when you add the sunspot to the graph of RSS: http://www.leif.org/research/RSS-and-SSN.png
Perhaps someone would put CO2 on the graph as well 🙂 … Aw, forget it, CO2 lags 800 years behind Temperatures…
David Archibald says:
That is a very interesting report from Ecuador indeed. Would it be possible to go back to your source and find out when it started, how fast the onset etc? Any news from the rest of Andean Cordillera would also be useful. I have been wondering when sea level rise would stop and reverse. 2011 could be the year.
Unfortunately, they are a young couple who don’t have a lot of ‘time on the ground’ so I can ask them to ask an ‘old timer’ but we’re starting to end up in 3 rd hand anecdotal land then. That’s why I dug up that paper on Freezing Level as that is hard data from 1959-1990.
I’d love to find an original record of snow levels on mountains, but it would likely be in Spanish and may not even be ‘on line’ as I doubt that weather reports from, oh, 1930 or 1890 in Ecuador are digitized. (Also my choice of Spanish search terms still gave me way too many Engish pages… I need to sharpen my filter for that approach to work).
What I was told, at any rate, is that it’s THIS winter when things have really gone cold. The last couple of years were cool, but not bad. This last round of snow during the “wet cycle” was the real surprise. So it looks to me like onset was sudden, was ‘this wet cycle’ and was odd enough to set tongues wagging.
So I think someone needs to round up some old folks in Quito, or find a Spanish weather / snowfall data archive. (I’m sure someone must have freeze level and / or snow level data for The Andes. It’s just a new bit of turf for me – snow level – and I’m not tuned up on search terms to find the interesting bits efficiently… yet… )
Per sea level: I thought it was already stopped? Haven’t the last couple of years been a “failure to advance” ? Or maybe I’m just remembering an inflection in the second derivative…
Leif Svalgaard said:
“The whole premise for the article is that during the past 60 years [the Modern Grand Maximum] the Sun has been extraordinarily active. I presented analysis [and some links] to show that this is very likely not the case, so the conclusion of the article falls flat.”
Just a few years ago, we were told that sunspot activity was the highest it’s been in the last 8,000 years:
“The Sun is More Active Now than Over the Last 8000 Years”
http://www.mpg.de/english/illustrationsDocumentation/documentation/pressReleases/2004/pressRelease20041028/
and
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6591
Bob Tisdale says:
I didn’t see a long-term graph (since 1880) of U.S. temperature anomalies in Chiefio’s post to contradict what I wrote earlier. Was there one?
I have one, and it is fun to look at, but I would not use is as global / authoritative.
The Dt/dt method has a few great advantages for seeing what is actually happening, but is designed first and foremost as a forensics tool. I specifically DO NOTHING to correct for areal bias in the data and depend on application to subsets of the data for that ‘correction’. For example, the dozen thermometers in France make a pretty good ‘areal average’ and you get a ‘grid cell’ the size of France. But the larger the area covered, the more this breaks down.
Further, the data start with ONE thermometer (substantially by definition) then expand to over 7000 globally, then shrink back to 1200. That means that the location and selection bias in the early parts of the curve are very large. That’s why most folks like CRU and GISS start their ‘study’ after what they speculate is enough thermometers show up in the record. (They still must hand wave and data adjust their way out of Nyquist in both time and space, though…)
The most interesting thing I found was just how much “splice artifacts” matter. So you get graphs like Gibraltar where you can’t splice much nor move the thermometer very far that are basically ‘dead flat with wiggles’ over their history:
http://chiefio.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/gibralter_hair.png
while nearby, France has a slow decline in temperatures right up until the point where the thermometers are moved to the Airport Tarmac and the processing is changed. Then it gets a bit of a hockey blade grafted on the end:
http://chiefio.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/france_hair_seg.png
And my favorite is the Netherlands:
http://chiefio.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/netherlands_hair.png
Just dead flat with a wiggle. Nobody screwing around with their instrumentation… Has about 3/4 C rise spread over 300 years as we rise out of the Little Ice Age.
I’ve got graphs for every country of the world here:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/category/dtdt/
Probably the better “entry point” to the country graphs is here:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/the-world-in-dtdt-graphs-of-temperature-anomalies/
though I’ve not updated them from last year. It’s a manual process that ought to be automated…
At some point I did make an “all data” graph, but frankly I’ve forgotten what posting it is in. It has a very volatile ‘start of time’ as the one lone cold thermometer in Europe in the early 1700s whips around, then does the rise out of the LIA to a mostly flat present. IIRC, it has a bit of a rise in the 1990 to date as the data location is corrupted.
Final note: I’ve not been able to “put the thermometers back in” as I don’t have data from the missing-but-still-there sites that are reporting-but-not-heard-by-NCDC. Though some Mets in Turkey did for their country. Though GISS says Turkey is warming, when all the thermometers are used, it’s cooling…
This posting looks at the GHCN data:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/lets-talk-turkey/
and finds a very pronounced “hockey blade” right when the thermometer drop happens. In comments, this paper was brought up. It finds cooling continues when you put them back in…
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/joc.3370150507/abstract
IMHO, what they did in Turkey is what needs to be done for the whole planet if we are ever going to have a clue about what the temperature really is from land thermometers.
kramer says:
January 3, 2011 at 9:53 am
Just a few years ago, we were told that sunspot activity was the highest it’s been in the last 8,000 years
don’t believe everything you find on the Internet 🙂
For more on this:
http://www.leif.org/EOS/muscheler05nat_nature04045.pdf
and
http://www.leif.org/research/AGU%20Fall%202010%20SH53B-03.pdf
Kapow
kramer says:
January 3, 2011 at 9:53 am
Just a few years ago, we were told that sunspot activity was the highest it’s been in the last 8,000 years http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6591
From your link:
“She notes that the current upsurge in sunspots is not enough to account for the approximate 0.5°C rise from pre-industrial temperatures over the last 30 years.”
Leif Svalgaard says:
January 3, 2011 at 7:59 am
tallbloke says:
January 3, 2011 at 4:20 am
Please could Leif tell us what start and end sunspot numbers he gets for the linear trend on his reconstruction between those dates.
1835-2003: 0.09+/-0.07; R^2=0.0095 not significant
The choice of dates often changes such non-significant trends. E.g.
1835-2010: 0.02+/-0.07; R^2=0.0005 even less significant
Thanks Leif. For the SIDC data, the equivalent values are:
1835-2003: 0.18; R^2=0.004
The choice of dates often changes such non-significant trends. E.g.
1835-2010: 0.11; R^2=0.002
Clearly, there is a big difference between your reconstruction and the sunspot numbers scientists have been working on for the last 150 years. I appreciate end points matter. That’s why I tried to pick dates which were approx half way up the solar cycles, though I now realise 1835 is near the start of the cycle and 2003 is nearer the end.
TSI and sunspot numbers used to correlate well, but they don’t at the moment, with TSI trending lower than sunspot numbers. Yet you said to Geoff Sharp that numbers are currently being undercounted?
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1996/to:2010/plot/pmod/from:1996/to:2010/offset:-1365.4/scale:100
Can you explain the disparity for us, which would be even wider if the current sunspot count was higher as you seem to think it should be?
Thanks
@E.M.Smith
‘Roughly like it does now.’
Probably if everything else was equal, however, I note I should have been more clear as to if people would so readily throw money after every engineers whim of could-be-invention as to people and government have done so far towards the climate hippies. (And as was done in the dot com debacle bubble.)
Although geo-engineering would probably have come a lot farther. All they lack is pretty much just money since they already have the support of governments even being ready to screw with the weather to fix the statistical climate back to a colder statistical climate. I wonder though what has the Chinese governments geo-engineering to fix their local weather these last few years had for impact on the global climate?
tallbloke says:
January 3, 2011 at 10:48 am
Thanks Leif. For the SIDC data, the equivalent values are:
1835-2003: 0.18; R^2=0.004
The choice of dates often changes such non-significant trends. E.g.
1835-2010: 0.11; R^2=0.002
Clearly those are not significant either.
Clearly, there is a big difference between your reconstruction and the sunspot numbers scientists have been working on for the last 150 years.
That is why it is so important to get the numbers right. You might enjoy Kopecky’s take on the [in]homogeneity http://www.leif.org/EOS/Kopecky-1980.pdf
TSI and sunspot numbers used to correlate well, but they don’t at the moment, with TSI trending lower than sunspot numbers.
TSI is not trending lower than sunspot numbers. You may be biased by the PMOD TSI that Froehlich produces. I have shown that PMOD has a calibration problem and that they do not fully understand the behavior of their instrument:
http://www.leif.org/research/PMOD%20TSI-SOHO%20keyhole%20effect-degradation%20over%20time.pdf
I’m right now working with the parties involved trying to get to the bottom of this and perhaps in a joint paper dispel the notion you [and many others] have about this.
Yet you said to Geoff Sharp that numbers are currently being undercounted?
I have shown very carefully that compared to the rest of the world SIDC is too low from about 2001. They may slowly be climbing back out of that hole [now that they have been made aware of this, e.g. http://www.leif.org/research/SIDC-Seminar-14Sept.pdf ]