Do solar scientists STILL think that recent warming is too large to explain by solar activity?

 

Guest post by Alec Rawls

Study of the sun-climate link was energized in 1991 by Friis-Christensen and Lassen, who showed a strong correlation between solar-cycle length and global temperature:

This evidence that much of 20th century warming might be explained by solar activity was a thorn in the side of the newly powerful CO2 alarmists, who blamed recent warming on human burning of fossil fuels. That may be why Lassen and Thejll were quick to offer an update as soon as the 1997-98 El Nino made it look as if temperatures were suddenly skyrocketing:

The rapid temperature rise recently seems to call for a quantitative revisit of the solar activity-air temperature association …

We conclude that since around 1990 the type of Solar forcing that is described by the solar cycle length model no longer dominates the long-term variation of the Northern hemisphere land air temperature.

In other words, there was now too much warming to account for by solar cycle length, so some other factor, such as CO2, had to be driving the most recent warming. Of course everyone knew that the 1998 warming had actually been caused by ocean oscillations. Even lay people knew it. (El Nino storm tracks were all the news for six months here in California.)

When Lassen was writing his update in mid ’99, temperatures had already dropped back to 1990 levels. His 8 year update was outdated before it was published. 12 years later the 2010 El Nino year shows the same average temperature as the ’98 El Nino year, and if post-El Nino temperatures continue to fall off the way they did in 99, we’ll be back to 1990 temperatures by mid-2011. Isn’t it about time Friis-Cristensen, Lassen and Thejll issued another update? Do they still think there has been too much recent warming to be accounted for by solar activity?

The most important update may be the discovery that, where Lassen and his colleagues found a correlation between the length of a solar-cycle and temperatures over that cycle, others have been finding a much stronger correlation to temperatures over the next cycle (reported at WUWT this summer by David Archibald).

This further correlation has the advantage of allowing us make projections. As Archibald deciphers Solheim’s Norwegian:

since the period length of previous cycle (no 23) is at least 3 years longer than for cycle no 22, the temperature is expected to decrease by 0.6 – 1.8 degrees over the following 10-12 years.

Check out this alarming graphic from Stephen Strum of Frontier Weather Inc:

Lagged solar cycle length and temp, Stephen Strum, Frontier Weather Inc.

The snowed in Danes might like to see these projections, before they bet the rest of their climate eggs on a dangerous war against CO2.

From sins of omission to sins of commission

In 2007, solar scientist Mike Lockwood told the press about some findings he and Claus Frohlich had just published:

In 1985, the Sun did a U-turn in every respect. It no longer went in the right direction to contribute to global warming. We think it’s almost completely conclusive proof that the Sun does not account for the recent increases in global warming.

Actually, solar cycle 22, which began in 1986, was one of the most intense on record (part of the 20th century “grand maximum” that was the most active sun of the last 11 thousand years), and by almost every measure it was more intense than solar cycle 21. It had about the same sunspot numbers as cycle 21 (Hathaway 2006):

Sunspot prediction, NASA-Hathaway, 2006

Cycle 22 ran more solar flux than cycle 21 (via Nir Shaviv):

Cycle 22 was shorter than cycle 21 (from Joseph D’Aleo):

Solar cycle length, from Joseph D'Aleo

Perhaps most important is solar activity as measured (inversely) by the cosmic ray flux (which many think is mechanism by which solar activity drives climate). Here cycle 22 is THE most intense in the 60 year record, stronger even than cycle 19, the sunspot number king. From the Astronomical Society of Australia:

Neutron counts, Climaz Colorado, with sunspots, Univ. of Chicago

Some “U-turn in every respect.”

If Lockwood and Frohlich simply wanted to argue that the peak of the modern maximum of solar activity was between solar cycles 21 and 22 it would be unobjectionable. What difference does it make exactly when the peak was reached? But this is exactly where their real misdirection comes in. They claim that the peak of solar activity marks the point where any solar-climate effect should move from a warming to a cooling direction. Here is the abstract from their 2007 Royal Society article:

Abstract There is considerable evidence for solar influence on the Earth’s pre-industrial climate and the Sun may well have been a factor in post-industrial climate change in the first half of the last century. Here we show that over the past 20 years, all the trends in the Sun that could have had an influence on the Earth’s climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures.

In order to assert the need for some other explanation for recent warming (CO2), they are claiming that near peak levels of solar activity cannot have a warming effect once they are past the peak of the trend—that it is not the level of solar activity that causes warming or cooling, but the change in the level—which is absurd.

Ken Gregory has the most precise answer to this foolishness. His “climate smoothing” graphic shows how the temperature of a heat sink actually responds to a fall-off in forcing:

Gregory, climate smoothing, contra-Lockwood

“Note that the temperature continues to rise for several years after the Sun’s forcing starts to decrease.”

Gregory’s numbers here are arbitrary. It could be many years before a fall off in forcing causes temperatures to start rising. In the case of solar cycle 22—where if solar forcing was actually past its peak, it had only fallen off a tiny bit—the only way temperature would not keep rising over the whole solar cycle is if global temperature had already equilibrated to peak solar forcing, which Lockwood and Frohlich make no argument for.

The obvious interpretation of the data is that we never did reach equilibrium temperatures, allowing grand maximum levels of solar activity to continue to warm the planet until the sun suddenly went quiet. Now there’s an update for Lockwood and Frohlich. How about telling the public when solar activity really did do “U” (October 2005).

Usoskin, Benestad, and a host of other solar scientists also mistakenly assume that temperature is driven by trend instead of level

Maybe it is because so much of the evidence for a sun-climate link comes from correlation studies, which look for contemporaneous changes in solar activity and temperature. Surely the scientists who are doing these studies all understand that there is no possible mechanism by which the rate of change in solar activity can itself drive temperature. If temperature changes when solar activity changes, it is because the new LEVEL of solar activity has a warming or cooling effect.

Still, a remarkable number of these scientists say things like this (from Usoskin et al. 2005):

The long term trends in solar data and in northern hemisphere temperatures have a correlation coefficient of about 0.7 — .8 at a 94% — 98% confidence level. …

… Note that the most recent warming, since around 1975, has not been considered in the above correlations. During these last 30 years the total solar irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most warming episode must have another source.

Set aside the other problems with Usoskin’s study. (The temperature record he compared his solar data to is Michael Mann’s “hockey stick.”) How can he claim overwhelming evidence for a sun-climate link, while simultaneously insisting that steady peak levels of solar activity can’t create warming? If steady peak levels coincide with warming, it supposedly means the sun-climate link is now broken, so warming must be due to some other cause, like CO2.

It is hard to believe that scientists could make such a basic mistake, and Usoskin et al. certainly have powerful incentive to play dumb: to pretend that their correlation studies are finding physical mechanisms by which it is changes in the level of solar activity, rather than the levels themselves, that drive temperature. Just elide this important little nuance and presto, modern warming gets misattributed to CO2, allowing these researchers to stay on the good side of the CO2 alarmists who control their funding. Still, the old adage is often right: never attribute to bad motives what can just as well be explained by simple error.

And of course there can be both.

RealClimate exchange on trend vs. level confusion

Finally we arrive at the beginning, for me anyway. I first came across trend-level confusion 5 years ago at RealClimate. Rasmus Benestad was claiming that, because post 1960’s levels of Galactic Cosmic Radiation have not been trending downwards, GCR cannot be the cause of post-60’s warming.

But solar activity has been well above historical norms since the 40’s. It doesn’t matter what the trend is. The solar-wind is up. According to the GCR-cloud theory, that blows away the GCR, which blows away the clouds, creating warming. The solar wind doesn’t have to KEEP going up. It is the LEVEL that matters, not the trend. Holy cow. Benestad was looking at the wrong derivative (one instead of zero).

A few months later I took an opportunity to state my rebuttal as politely as possible, which elicited a response from Gavin Schmidt. Here is our 2005 exchange:

Me: Nice post, but the conclusion: “… solar activity has not increased since the 1950s and is therefore unlikely to be able to explain the recent warming,” would seem to be a non-sequitur.

What matters is not the trend in solar activity but the level. It does not have to KEEP going up to be a possible cause of warming. It just has to be high, and it has been since the forties.

Presumably you are looking at the modest drop in temperature in the fifties and sixties as inconsistent with a simple solar warming explanation, but it doesn’t have to be simple. Earth has heat sinks that could lead to measured effects being delayed, and other forcings may also be involved. The best evidence for causality would seem to be the long term correlations between solar activity and temperature change. Despite the differences between the different proxies for solar activity, isn’t the overall picture one of long term correlation to temperature?

[Response: You are correct in that you would expect a lag, however, the response to an increase to a steady level of forcing is a lagged increase in temperature and then a asymptotic relaxation to the eventual equilibrium. This is not what is seen. In fact, the rate of temperature increase is rising, and that is only compatible with a continuing increase in the forcing, i.e. from greenhouse gases. – gavin]

Gavin admits here that it’s the level of solar activity, not the trend in solar activity, that drives temperature. He’s just assuming that grand maximum levels of solar forcing should have bought the planet close to equilibrium temperature before post-80’s warming hit, but that assumption is completely unwarranted. If solar activity is driving climate (the hypothetical that Schmidt is analyzing), we know that it can push temperatures a lot higher than they are today. Surely Gavin knows about the Viking settlement of Greenland.

The rapid warming in the late 90’s could easily have been caused by the monster solar cycle 22 and there is no reason to think that another big cycle wouldn’t have brought more of the same. Two or three more cycle 22s and we might have been hauling out the longships, which would be great. No one has ever suggested that natural warming is anything but benign. Natural cooling bad, natural warming good. But alas, a longer grand maximum was not to be.

Gavin’s admission that it is level not trend that drives temperature change is important because ALL of the alarmist solar scientists are making the trend-level mistake. If they would admit that the correct framework is to look at the level of forcing and the lapse to equilibrium then they would be forced to look at the actual mechanisms of forcing and equilibration, instead of ignoring key forcings on the pretense that steady peak levels of forcing cannot cause warming.

That’s the big update that all of our solar scientists need to make. They need to stop tolerating this crazy charade that allows the CO2 alarmists to ignore the impact of decades of grand maximum solar activity and misattribute the resulting warming to fossil fuel burning. It is a scientific fraud of the most disastrous proportions, giving the eco-lunatics the excuse they need to unplug the modern world.

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January 4, 2011 3:00 pm

Steven finally about the siting / altitude issues.
The yellow line shows the corrections due to siting change:
http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/hammer-graph-2-us-temps1.jpg
There can be other reasons for warm corrections than altitude in the yelow graph, but often it is the altitude that is mentioned when siting issues are in question. (For example NIWA, many of the adjusments they did try to defend before withdrawing was exactly the altitude corrections. It then turned out they could not defend these either).
but altitude or other siting change: WHY do we see a netto big warming correction due to siting change?
You say that the altitude is NOT “a problem”:

This is not a problem and has been shown repeatedly to not be a problem.
1. The avergae decrease in altitude is a few dozen meters.
2. the anomaly method corrects for this.
3. Methods that dont use anomalies ( jeff id ) ALSO show no bias.
4. You can look at low altitude stations EXCLUSIVELY and get the same answer
5. You can look at over 25000 daily stations and see that the answer is the same.

Ok, so what other siting changes are then making the big yellow correction graph?
And I ask again,
1) why is it that the changes over sp many years over all countries more often gives a warming correction than a cooling correction?
2) Have you seen documented that we have a world wide synchronous change in site (altitude or not) to legalize big siting corrections?
K.R. Frank

January 4, 2011 3:03 pm

Steven, Correction to question 1): In the graph i showed only usa, so for USA specific the question should say “states” and not “countries”.
K.R. Frank

January 4, 2011 3:04 pm

Vuk etc says:
January 4, 2011 at 1:58 pm
I have no idea where field is generated
You have no idea about a lot of things. Here is the discussion of the generation of the Earth’s field:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/12/17/first-measurement-of-magnetic-field-in-earths-core/

Robuk
January 4, 2011 3:25 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 4, 2011 at 9:20 am
Robuk says:
January 4, 2011 at 8:32 am
NO, I am saying that a steady increase in TSI from the early 20th century and remaining at that very high level will for a certain length of time keep the temperature rising.
Leif says,
The steady increase in TSI from the early 18th century and remaining at that very high level will for a certain length of time keep the temperature rising during the Dalton Minimum.
=======================================================
NO, The TSI after the Maunda was lower and shorter than the present warming and I am not commenting on the Maunda minimum as you well know.
Was the temperature rising during the relatively strong level TSI from 1730 to 1790, lets see,
The deviations of air temperature for each climatic phase are calculated by using the regression coefficient between mean number of days with precipitation and monthly mean daily maximum temperature, the climatic characteristics are as follows.
1721 to 1740 moderate throughout the year.
1741 to 1780 warm throughout the year.
1781 to 1820 cool in summer.
A level TSI from 1730 to 1790 should according to some have caused the temperature to drop as the TSI was not increasing, yet according to this study the temperature continued to increase up to 1780.
Seems the sun is the driver after all.
http://www.repository.lib.tmu.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/10748/3507/1
/20005-18-006.pdf
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/bobclive/maunda2.jpg

Robuk
January 4, 2011 3:32 pm

Sorry, here is the link again, if it does not work google it.
http://www.repository.lib.tmu.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/10748/3507/1/20005-18-006.pdf

January 4, 2011 3:47 pm

Robuk says:
January 4, 2011 at 3:25 pm
A level TSI from 1730 to 1790 should according to some have caused the temperature to drop as the TSI was not increasing […]
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/bobclive/maunda2.jpg

Seems that TSI according to your link was increasing significantly from 1730 to 1790…

January 4, 2011 3:51 pm

Carla says:
January 4, 2011 at 2:42 pm
But, but Leif, surface fields are generated “at the surface.”
No, they are observed at the surface. They are generated deep within the Earth, thousands of kilometers deep.

stevenmosher
January 4, 2011 11:18 pm

Steven, you write: “There have been several attempts to isolate the UHI effect in the global LAND record.
A. peterson, parker, jones and McKittrick.”
Peterson: This is a JOKE that exactly puts the UHI-honesty ino question! Have you not read how hes work has been atomized at climate Audit??
He got 0,05K for UHI as I remember, then Steve mcIntyre finally got hold of data, recalculated the Urban group vs. non Urban and got… + 0,7K from the very same data Peterson used. So we appear to have some sort of calculation error (!!)
############
Wrong as usual. You seem to forget that I was there with steve looking at the data.
There are of course problems with Peterson’s approach and his selection of data, but nothing like what you state. You neglect also to canvas Parker. We spent quite a bit more time with parker and even submitted questions to Parker which he answered.
You should spend some time with the actual data and read the actual posts and comments before you speak. Steve’s comparison, if you will read the article carefully ( as I did both at the time of it’s writing and subsequently in order to write the book) considered ONLY the raw data prior to the adjustments ( like TOBS and MMTS).
Now, if you knew anything about the MMTS adjustment or the TOBS adjustment you would understand steve’s rather fine point. Which is that prior to adjustments there is a diffference. These adjustments are required. There is no denying that. The question
has always been.
1. The production of the adjustment code ( which we have asked for)
2. Validating the size of the adjustment. ( WRT MMTS, especially. see Quayle’s paper)
3. The SE of both adjustments. ( see the recent update of Karl)
“Then McIntyre discoveres, that peterson had actually put several rural stations in the urban group and vice versa!! And then McIntyre ended up with a full
+2 K UHI f
or the very data Peterson and com has accepted to use for UHI purpose!”
Again, read more carefully. It’s still a comparison with raw data. I will say this Peterson’s study is in the course of being redone from scratch with much better urban/rural data. The results fall in the middle of the pack that Jones noted:
NAMELY, the UHI “signal” is somewhere between 0c and .3C.
Even at the worst case .3C the and is 30% of the total so you have a .1C bias in the
whole record ( land + SST) …WORST CASE

stevenmosher
January 4, 2011 11:23 pm

Frank>
“Now, Steven i will show you the BEST UHI study EVER made.
I was done by Thomas Karl with data running 1901-1984.
One problem for everyone that tries to study UHI today is that data has been adjusted etc, but the beaty of Thomas karls work is that this was done BEFORE agw agenda hit hard, and before the age of big adjustments.”
Seriously, you actually need to stop bloviating about adjustments and actually look at the station metadata to understand why a TOBS adjustment is needed. A few of us shared your concern over adjustments years ago and we actually looked at with some care. Start with TOBS. do the work. When you discover the REAL issue with TOBS, hollar back. Until such time you are just causing confusion. Start with Jerry Brennans work. You’ll have to go back to the days of John Daly for that

stevenmosher
January 4, 2011 11:34 pm

Frank
Steven finally about the siting / altitude issues.
The yellow line shows the corrections due to siting change:
http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/hammer-graph-2-us-temps1.jpg
########
Frank, since I was one of the first people at CA years ago to post that graph you really do need to do a bit of reading and due dilegence. Which correction would you like to talk about? have you read all the core science on each of the adjustments. have tou slogged through the master station data list to look at all the metadata? Were do I start? This is old hat. get up to speed.
Again, let me review the important questions. The need for the adjustments is real.
you must do a TOBS adjustment. you must do a equipmrnt adjustment. you must do a SHAP adjustment ( Filnet is not required unless you want to do CAM or RSM) The question is:
1. can we see the code used for these adjustments
2. What happens to out uncertainty structure after adjustment.
But like many others you tend to think you can DIVINE intent from the mere direction of an adjustment. or you niavely think that “raw” is better than adjusted.
If you actually cared to look at something like TOBS you would see the folly of this.
Anyway, lemme know when you catch up to where we were in 2007.

January 5, 2011 1:51 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 4, 2011 at 3:04 pm
Vuk etc says:
January 4, 2011 at 1:58 pm
I have no idea where field is generated
L. S. You have no idea about a lot of things.
Absolutely, but still not deprived of sense of humour, so sadly lacking over there.
You finally took my ‘studious’ comment seriously. I whish I didn’t have to spent hours of typing and weeks if not months, of discussion on various threads, trying to point out to you known and documented facts (that you consistently declared as a nonsense) that:
– magnetic dipole is not equivalent to a letter “I” shaped bar magnet
– the North Hemisphere has two poles,
– the North and South magnetic poles change their intensity at different rate
– the Arctic field has negative correlation with the long term solar activity
– the North Hemisphere at the time of Maunder minimum suffered magnetic shock rising and falling back by nearly 10% all in a short space of less than 100 years
– the uncertainty of Dye-3 and GRIP10Be records due to subtracting dipole rather than the local Arctic field
– etc., etc,.
Perhaps we should have stayed ‘stuck’ to the fridge magnet, your favourite analogy of the Earth’s field.

January 5, 2011 1:54 am

steven, in your January 4, 2011 at 11:23 pm comment you “reflect” over the Thomas karl study that is the biggest study done and so very clear shows SIGNIFICANT UHI.
But you totally ignore to comment on this and we get no further.
Likewise, the Chinese UHI result from Jones giving 0,1 K UHI / decade – i may have missed something (!) but where are your reflections on this??
Then you point out the cdertainly relevant info that you have been part of the process, for examle when McIntyre wrote his article on Peterson. Yes, im impressed 🙂
But when i read it, I certainly just get the picture, that Peterson has calculated UHI totally wrong and that McIntyre gets up to 2 K UHI out of the very same data.
You may call me a fool, but I have never seen anybody interpret this in any other way.
NOW WE QUOTE STEVE McINTYRE, and, Steven, If “you where there” i have to ask if yo where awake?
Steve McIntyre writes about Petersons claim of hardly any UHI:
“I think that it’s incorrect for Peterson to say that there is no observable difference in urban and rural trends in his network. There is a substantial difference in trends in the “raw” data, which should have been reported. He believes that this difference is due to TOBS changes based on De Gaetano adjustments, but it’s possible that there is some other explanation for the difference, including the obvious candidate – UHI.

and

the notion that Peterson 2003 is a sustainable authority for the IPCC proposition that “rural station trends were almost indistinguishable from series including urban sites” seems increasingly difficult to accept.

Please read again on climate audit why the low UHI claims are NOOOOT supported as you claim:
http://climateaudit.org/2007/08/04/1859/
And Steven, think honest: Why do you think that AFTER Thomas karl made the biggest US UHI study yielding clear UHI using 4-500 rural-urban pairs, THEN comes Peterson with a SMALLER data foundation also from US and claims hardly any UHI?
Why was there a “IPCC-need” for Peterson to make a new (smaller) UHI study after Karls? Was there something in Karls study he did wrong? No, infact no one has ever claimed that karl did something wrong… IPCC used Peterson, ignored Karl.
K.R. Frank

Robuk
January 5, 2011 5:12 am

Frank,
To me, this is the most important piece of Steve`s comments.
Assuming nothing, I downloaded raw daily data for 282 out of 289 sites. (The other 7 sites either had id number discrepancies or were not online at GHCND.) From this, I calculated average monthly TMAX and TMIN temperatures for all the sites and then calculated 1961-1990 anomalies. I then calculated simple averages of the “raw” anomalies for the two networks BEFORE any jiggery-pokery. Even if all the subsequent adjustments are terrific, from a statistical point of view, it’s always a good idea to see what your data looks like at the start.
and this,
You would think that this would have been one of the first tests that Peterson would have carried out and his failure to either carry out this test or report such results if the procedure were carried out is noticeable.
I think the word noticeable should have been consideraly stronger.
I believe the New Zealand data now shows no warming since the early 60`s.

January 5, 2011 5:52 am

Vuk etc says:
January 5, 2011 at 1:51 am
The field is generated in the liquid outer core and is highly disordered and irregular with many ‘poles’ all over the place. As you move away from any such ‘tangle’, it becomes increasingly regular as the intensity of an n-pole decreases with distance to the (n+1) power. [e.g. monopole as square of distance, dipole as cube, etc]. This means that at a large distance every magnetic field becomes dipolar. The field in the core is not influenced by solar activity because of the skin-effect [and also because it is 100,000 times stronger than the solar wind magnetic field]. The variations we see at the surface are just distant resultants of drifts and movements of the field in the core. There are crustal anomalies due to local ores. These can be very large [several times larger than the main field – e.g. at Kursk in Russia and also near Alert in the Arctic]. Of course, the crustal anomalies do not vary with time, nor move, nor change with solar activity.

Robuk
January 5, 2011 6:03 am

stevenmosher says:
January 4, 2011 at 11:23 pm
Frank>
“Now, Steven i will show you the BEST UHI study EVER made.
I was done by Thomas Karl with data running 1901-1984.
One problem for everyone that tries to study UHI today is that data has been adjusted etc, but the beaty of Thomas karls work is that this was done BEFORE agw agenda hit hard, and before the age of big adjustments.”
Seriously, you actually need to stop bloviating about adjustments,
=========================================================
Legal Defeat for Global Warming in Kiwigate Scandal
According to the August official statement of the claim from NZCSC, climate scientists cooked the books . This involves subtly imposing a warming bias during what is known as the ‘homogenisation’ process that occurs when climate data needs to be adjusted.
It was shown that the scientist who made the controversial “bold adjustments” is none other than Jim Salinger who is also a lead author for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Because very few temperature records exist for the Pacific Ocean, the NIWA record is given extra weight by the UN’s IPCC for determining multi-decadal trends in global average temperatures.
Is it any wonder that these adjustments are questioned,
It should not be to difficult to find 50 rural sites in the US, maybe from Anthony`s http://www.surfacestations project and then compare them with 50 urban sites using only raw data, observe the results.
Then manually check and adjust each of those stations for moves etc and compare those results.
Then compare the raw with the adjusted, there will be no rural mixed with urban, just pristine data sets.
That should give a good indication whether the 0.05C is correct.
Or has it already been done,
http://climategate.tv/2009/12/11/picking-out-the-uhi-in-climatic-temperature-records-%E2%80%93-so-easy-a-6th-grader-can-do-it/

Carla
January 5, 2011 7:03 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 5, 2011 at 5:52 am
Vuk etc says:
January 5, 2011 at 1:51 am
~
Thanks Leif, there are other locations also, of surface fields, yes?
axial, rotational and gravitation fields too much for now.
I get to add to the mankind contribution list today, ores. I don’t feel so good.

January 5, 2011 7:11 am

1) Regarding the flawed paper by Friis-Christensen and Lassen, also look at Damon and Laut analyzing what they did wrong and how it could be done better:
http://www.realclimate.org/damon&laut_2004.pdf
2) A lagged response does not mean that the response is small during the time of maximum forcing, and then suddenly jumps up (temp increase afyter the mid seventies) decades after the forcing stopped (solar leveled off in the fifties). That can not be explained by a lagged response (as can also be seen in your ‘smoothing’ schematic).
3) I assembled some relevant graphs and arguments here:
http://ourchangingclimate.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/recent-changes-in-the-sun-co2-and-global-average-temperature-little-ice-age-onwards/
The main reasons that disqualify the sun as being a major culprit in recent global warming (past 30-35 years) are:
• No increase in solar output (or decrease in cosmic rays) over the past 50 years
• Nighttime temperatures increased more than daytime (inconsistent with solar forcing; consistent with GHG forcing)
• Stratospheric cooling (inconsistent with solar forcing; consistent with GHG forcing)

January 5, 2011 8:25 am

Robuk – I agree 100%
McIntyre about Petersons work: “You would think that this would have been one of the first tests that Peterson would have carried out… ”
Exactly. This shows that for some reason this work has had an extremely easy way through the scrutiny and peer rev process.
It also seems that Steven Mosher accepts that all kinds of adjustments just happens to give roughly 0,4K significant warming or more for example fot the US. With this magnitude of corrections we would have a situation where Solar activity has a mismatch with temperature adjustments and not measured temperatures.
So if the Solar theory should be challenged by city/airport temperatures etc, then one should say: “Solar activity does not support temperature adjustments, therefore Solar theory is wrong”.
And to this comes as Alec Rawl wisely mentions, that it is likely that the unusual high rathre steady level of Solar activity 1940-2000 should lead to increasing temperatures in the period. And then finaly comes the UHI that Peterson certainly not has ruled out in any way.
K.R. Frank

January 5, 2011 8:29 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 5, 2011 at 5:52 am
………..
Agree that is state of science currently, but occasionally is desirable to challenge it, even if challenger may be wrong.
What I am basically saying is that idea of a conical vortex within rotating cylinder sphere is more likely than Andy Jackson’s idea off centre cylindrical vortex.
http://www.eri.u-tokyo.ac.jp/kokusai/english/researchers/jackson_a/Jackson_Nature20100506.pdf
Further, I am suggesting that if so than one of those (Hudson Bay) may be closer to the surface than the other two.
Siberian pole can’t be treated as local anomaly, since by now is much larger and stronger than Hudson Bay, and it can be legitimately considered a new location of the NH’s magnetic pole. This makes Earth having a magnetic bulge in the East Hemisphere.
As the iron ore is concerned than Magnitogorsk area is definitely leader in the field.
The rest for some other time.

January 5, 2011 8:30 am

Robuk again 100% I agree: The total collapse of NIWA who has been FORCED to withdraw 36 of 40 adjustments including siting adjusments is definetely an important writing on the wall. So perhaps its just NIWA that for some reason all by themselves has had a fun time making bizarre adjustments?? right.
And then its a “freak coincidence” again-again that the head of NIWA just happens to appear in many climate-gate mails? Right
Do we also believe in Santa Clause?
K.R. Frank

January 5, 2011 8:37 am

The main reasons that disqualify the sun as being a major culprit in recent global warming (past 30-35 years) are:
• No increase in solar output (or decrease in cosmic rays) over the past 50 years
Reply: A historically high level can keep adding energy to the system until a new equilibrium has been reached.
• Nighttime temperatures increased more than daytime (inconsistent with solar forcing; consistent with GHG forcing)
Reply: Higher air circulation zonality would have that effect and there is evidence that the level of zonality/meridionality is affected by solar changes.
• Stratospheric cooling (inconsistent with solar forcing; consistent with GHG forcing)
Reply. That is the biggie in my opinion but I have reason to think that stratospheric cooling is a natural consequence of higher solar activity because the cooling ceased as the sun became less active despite increasing CO2
Is that your best shot ?

Niels A Nielsen
January 5, 2011 8:51 am

Steven Mosher you write about the likely UHI signal: “Even at the worst case .3C the and is 30% of the total so you have a .1C bias in the whole record ( land + SST) …WORST CASE”
I have seen this type of reasoning before but I wonder if is really valid? I mean the ocean SST data are notoriously uncertain (worse than surface) when you go back in time. If a 0.3C UHI signal was found and the SAT trend trend reduced accordingly, you would suddenly have a surface warming slower than the ocean. That sounds quite unphysical to me. In that case another serious question mark would have to be put on the SST’s. Assuming SST’s to remain unchallenged if SAT trend was reduced by 0.3C does not sound credible to me. I would appreciate a comment on this.

January 5, 2011 9:54 am

Vuk etc says:
January 5, 2011 at 8:29 am
but occasionally is desirable to challenge it, even if challenger may be wrong.
The challenger must know something about it. The challenger must be coherent, and quantitative.
Further, I am suggesting that if so than one of those (Hudson Bay) may be closer to the surface than the other two.
Any and all of them are at least 3000 km away from the surface.
Siberian pole can’t be treated as local anomaly
You must distinguish between crustal anomalies [which are local] and main field anomalies [which originate 3000 kms deep and are thus not ‘local’ in any reasonable meaning of the concept]. Crustal anomalies don’t move or change.

Robuk
January 5, 2011 10:41 am

Bart Verheggen says:
January 5, 2011 at 7:11 am
Nighttime temperatures increased more than daytime (inconsistent with solar forcing; consistent with GHG forcing)
I understood that the high T min is caused by UHI, remember the old heat storage radiators back in the 60`s, apply heat to an insulated stack of bricks then release this stored heat some time later, Buildings and ashfelt spring to mind.

January 5, 2011 10:42 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
January 5, 2011 at 9:54 am
………………..
You are attributing some trivia, but steadfastly avoiding even to mention Siberia, let alone voice your opinion of emergence of the new location of the strongest magnetic field in the Northern hemisphere.
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/data/mag_maps/pdf/F_map_mf_2005.pdf
No pussyfooting with magnetic needle pointing downwards and suchlike nonsense from 17th centaury:
What is your learned opinion of the recent emergence (around 1996/97) of Siberia’ peak?
Is this new magnetic pole?

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